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I'm unable to leave the bar after Jae's quest. The only exit takes me back into the sewers. Is the only way out to resolve the Tocara situation one way or another now I'm here?
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Dec 30, 2023 10:05
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Taear posted:The problem is that so many players never reach that point. I went away from BG3 really not having liked it because of how loving broken all the triggers got from act 2 onwards yet not a lot of what's discussed mentions broken triggers/bugs and etc. Yeah this "problem" gets rolled out every time this comes up, yet we're not even a month into Rogue Trader and some folks are on second playthroughs already. Those folks are a minority to be sure, but the Venn diagram of people willing to pre-order for early access/betas and people who are going to sink their teeth deep into the game has a pretty thick overlap. And before someone points at Steam achievements, please remember that those are population wide and there's no filter for the type of player I just described. Player demographics matter, and "people who preorder for beta access" are going to bias in a certain direction that "everyone who bought the game on Steam" absolutely will not.
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Dec 30, 2023 10:18
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Actually my biases are cool and good, tyvm.
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Dec 30, 2023 10:23
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I stopped playing because I played the game taking all heretic choices but am in act 4 at level 3 and am tokd that's not enough to get a lot of the content so I'm waiting for patches
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Dec 30, 2023 10:46
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Taear posted:The beginning is pretty good so if it's not grabbing you maybe you just don't like fantasy narratives? I’m sick of games that get good/interesting 50 hours in.
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Dec 30, 2023 10:49
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I know I’m in the minority on this. “200 hours and you can replay it multiple times with different builds!” is a selling point for most CRPG buyers.
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Dec 30, 2023 10:54
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doingitwrong posted:I’m sick of games that get good/interesting 50 hours in. doingitwrong posted:I know I’m in the minority on this. “200 hours and you can replay it multiple times with different builds!” is a selling point for most CRPG buyers. How about, and hear me out, we make a game that is good from hour 1 to hour 200 with no minimum playtime to be considered good? Mind you, I think Rogue Trader is good from the start but yeah "it gets good X hours in!" is never a sufficient defense and never excuses the X hours of bad gameplay.
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Dec 30, 2023 10:57
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I can loving believe that you can't change your starting class. What is this 1987?
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Dec 30, 2023 11:13
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I thought Wrath was fun right from the rip  but it's a very ornery old style game so if that's not your bag then you aren't going to enjoy it.
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Dec 30, 2023 11:17
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The only thing that was not engaging in Wrath for me was the prologue. Cleaning up Kenabres was fun and finishing gray Garrison is already a bigger power fantasy moment than many RPGs in their endgame.
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Dec 30, 2023 11:25
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Warmachine posted:Yep. It becomes a puzzle game of "how can I get all of these guys killed before initiative even technically starts?" Which is cool in its own right but also maybe a little samey (and unhealthy as a meta). Yeah I just did the Henrick bit with the Chaos Space Marine and the the Magus with the 2 bloodhound robot things and in both fights none of the big bads got to act. The Screamer got to act by used its action to try to run away and died to attacks of opportunity. I don't even have an optimised party of any kind. People keep talking about Cassia and movement but I've never worked out how to do that. I've got Notch of Purpose but it's never done anything so I stopped using it in favour of laser eyes. Are there any levelling guides which are written? There's no way I'm watching a video trying to explain this nonsense. What does You're Up Next or whatever its called do? There's no ability text.
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Dec 30, 2023 11:31
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JamMasterJim posted:The only thing that was not engaging in Wrath for me was the prologue. yeah that moment at the end of act 1 (6 or 7 hours in?) when you first start the mythic path is phenomenal. The music especially sells the moment as I think it has the best soundtrack of basically any game I can think of in ages. So good the way that every mythic path has a distinct theme that really captures its vibe perfectly from the alien weirdness of the aeon to the creepy majesty of the lich. gently caress makes me want to go play it again. I've put a bunch of hours into it but I've still only seen about half of the mythic paths and none of the dlc.
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Dec 30, 2023 11:33
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Aramoro posted:What does You're Up Next or whatever its called do? There's no ability text. It passes the AP and the turn to another ally (but it costs 1AP itself).
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Dec 30, 2023 11:34
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Aramoro posted:Yeah I just did the Henrick bit with the Chaos Space Marine and the the Magus with the 2 bloodhound robot things and in both fights none of the big bads got to act. The Screamer got to act by used its action to try to run away and died to attacks of opportunity. I agree that I've seen people talk up Notch of Purpose and Point of Interest but I rarely see enemies fail the check past early act 2
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Dec 30, 2023 11:35
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I just have Cassia nuke everything with her damage abilities instead of bothering with her forced movement stuff.
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Dec 30, 2023 11:37
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FuzzySlippers posted:Larian has been only working on BG3's main content for a long time but Owlcat has worked on 2 different games, a bunch of dlc, and may even have future stuff in dev. I think this shows. The ambition of BG3 is just far far higher than Rogue Trader and the mechanics make it vastly more complex in terms of what can happen. Rogue Traders system has this fuax-complexity on it with the abilities but they all resolve to essentially the same things, a 3% buff to that, an extra turn with 2 AP etc. You can't pickpocket someone of a quest item in a cutscene and see how the game works that out. Rogue Trader should be more robust than BG3 because it's far simpler. It's not so that speaks to less time devoted to it.
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Dec 30, 2023 11:42
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Arglebargle III posted:I agree that I've seen people talk up Notch of Purpose and Point of Interest but I rarely see enemies fail the check past early act 2 Proper talent set-up makes it extremely hard for enemies to resist. Visions of hell ability and open to the warp talent alone are devastating
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Dec 30, 2023 11:42
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Jack Trades posted:It passes the AP and the turn to another ally (but it costs 1AP itself). Where does it come from? It just seems to have started happening but I dont remember picking a talent that did that.
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Dec 30, 2023 11:44
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Aramoro posted:Where does it come from? It just seems to have started happening but I dont remember picking a talent that did that. Officer Heroic, that gives an ally a turn, gives that ally the ability to pass that turn to someone else. I think it's in the description of the Officer Heroic itself.
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Dec 30, 2023 11:45
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Aramoro posted:I think this shows. The ambition of BG3 is just far far higher than Rogue Trader and the mechanics make it vastly more complex in terms of what can happen. Rogue Traders system has this fuax-complexity on it with the abilities but they all resolve to essentially the same things, a 3% buff to that, an extra turn with 2 AP etc. You can't pickpocket someone of a quest item in a cutscene and see how the game works that out. Though it's not like that was just their random choice to spend less time on RT. DOS 2 already sold better than any other crpg in history so before BG3 began dev Larian was in an extremely financially stable position to take their time. Then early access BG3 sold absurd amounts too. Just to add more chaos to Owlcat's RT dev in the middle they had to pick up their stuff and move to Cyprus. For a while they couldn't even touch any of the money made on Wrath stuff because of the sanctions. Don't get me wrong I think RT's build/character system sucks, but I get why. They typically don't do major systems revamps in their patches, but this isn't a straight pnp adaptation so I hope they consider big changes here.
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Dec 30, 2023 12:01
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Warmachine posted:Yeah this "problem" gets rolled out every time this comes up, yet we're not even a month into Rogue Trader and some folks are on second playthroughs already. Those folks are a minority to be sure, but the Venn diagram of people willing to pre-order for early access/betas and people who are going to sink their teeth deep into the game has a pretty thick overlap. And before someone points at Steam achievements, please remember that those are population wide and there's no filter for the type of player I just described. Player demographics matter, and "people who preorder for beta access" are going to bias in a certain direction that "everyone who bought the game on Steam" absolutely will not. doingitwrong posted:I’m sick of games that get good/interesting 50 hours in. I'm confused because both of you here are taking the exact opposite of what I'm saying. Wrath is good from the start doingitwrong and if you don't like it there you won't like it. That's all. I'm not saying "it gets good 50 hours in" or anything, if you don't like the start you're not gonna enjoy it at all. And Warmachine I'm saying that because most players don't get that far it's not in the devs interest to spend time developing later game. Beta testers 100% would get there, but who cares when people play 30 hours and drop it? You can see this with achievements in games
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Dec 30, 2023 12:04
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Taear posted:I'm confused because both of you here are taking the exact opposite of what I'm saying. The problem with WotR is that it becomes straight up dogshit 100 hours I when you're fannying around on the campaign map.
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Dec 30, 2023 12:11
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FuzzySlippers posted:Just to add more chaos to Owlcat's RT dev in the middle they had to pick up their stuff and move to Cyprus. For a while they couldn't even touch any of the money made on Wrath stuff because of the sanctions. Ah see that's a good reason
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Dec 30, 2023 12:42
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FuzzySlippers posted:This. I've said it before: if it was easy to make these games without bugs and holes in the content then someone in the last 3 decades would've done it. What happened was that the money guys at development studios realised that buggy, incomplete games do well enough to not justify the extra work. Take Knights of the Old Republic. The first one got a 9.5 on ign. The second one, which is famously buggy and incomplete in comparison, got 9.2. Cyberpunk is one of the last games I can think of where it released lovely enough to cause outrage. The issue isn't that releasing complete, bug free games is too hard; incomplete, buggy games are simply considered good enough by the market to justify releasing them in this state.
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Dec 30, 2023 12:45
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Jack Trades posted:Officer Heroic, that gives an ally a turn, gives that ally the ability to pass that turn to someone else. It also seems to persist (but shouldn't) into future turns. Which is nice when I can get cassia or someone with 0 AP buffs a free turn. But it's another bug that makes the game easier.
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Dec 30, 2023 12:56
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I have completely lost track of my various AP-granting and attack-granting abilities. I always seem to have more than I think I should but like gently caress am I going to parse through every one of the abilities and traits affecting them and try to make them add up.
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Dec 30, 2023 12:58
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finest hour seems to bug out if you use it during pre initiative turns like given by seize the initiative.
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Dec 30, 2023 12:59
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Further Reading posted:What happened was that the money guys at development studios realised that buggy, incomplete games do well enough to not justify the extra work. And Cyberpunk sold like gangbusters at release and was still good enough for a lot of people, and now it's been critically re examined and is selling even better. It worked!
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Dec 30, 2023 13:00
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Further Reading posted:What happened was that the money guys at development studios realised that buggy, incomplete games do well enough to not justify the extra work. Your example of complicated crpgs released bug free are? Much simpler games are sometimes released in a relatively bug free but even that is rare. Usually the cost is more in working their devs to the bone and I like that Larian and Owlcat are supposed to be decent places to work. I can put up with a few bugs. They are also independent private companies so there aren't shadowy distant money men holding power over them. Most independent game studios operate at fairly thin margins hence Obsidian always barely staying afloat. Though BG3 is about as laid back a schedule as you can ever expect a game to have and it still had bugs and cut content. Making these games is tough Kotor 1 and 2 were made by totally different companies. For 2 Obsidian famously had a very short dev schedule mandated by the Lucas company people and that was just for dumb marketing reasons not any calculation based on how many bugs gamers will accept.
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Dec 30, 2023 13:02
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Personally, I'd even go as far as to say that I don't know of a single reasonably ambitious CRPG that wasn't completely broken in one way or another at release.
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Dec 30, 2023 13:10
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Jack Trades posted:Personally, I'd even go as far as to say that I don't know of a single reasonably ambitious CRPG that wasn't completely broken in one way or another at release. Yeah, as it is pretty much an inevitable part of ambition. There really aren't any great ways to handle debugging and testing ambitious games and that'll probably always be the case until you have AI devs to foist it on somewhere between 5 and 500 years from now. Gameplay complexity has an exponential effect not just on testing but implementing fixes as well. Since everything Owlcat makes is a .net game you can run a decompiler and take a look at some of the code (though it isn't that easy to interpret with the usual chaos of decompiling). You can see the crazy pile of code that an ability entails because of all the many many ways the various rpg bits and bobs can impact every step of an ability firing off. So, you don't just need to have a tester play the game for hundreds of hours finding all the ability bugs but many bugs (and there will be thousands) require digging through that code and not breaking a hundred other things with the fix. There are no easy ways to do it except just dumping time and energy on it and financial limitations are gonna limit that for independent studios eventually. Especially compared to the niche space if they just wanted to make money they'd be making f2p mobile games instead of this complicated poo poo. For the resources Owlcat has they do alright. Each game has been a bit less broken which is about as much as you can hope.
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Dec 30, 2023 13:41
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Jack Trades posted:Personally, I'd even go as far as to say that I don't know of a single reasonably ambitious CRPG that wasn't completely broken in one way or another at release. I remember being kind of surprised that Dragon Age: Inquisition was playable to completion when that came out, especially after how disastrous and bad Dragon Age 2 was, but that's the only big example I can think of, and it was backed by one of the big publishers so had oodles of money to burn.
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Dec 30, 2023 13:45
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habeasdorkus posted:I witnessing the horror of Chorda's One act of mercy can do as much damage as a lifetime of treason
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Dec 30, 2023 13:53
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Zodium posted:finest hour seems to bug out if you use it during pre initiative turns like given by seize the initiative. Same thing with Bring Them Down, I use it on Cassia before her actual turn and she can only use officer abilities
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Dec 30, 2023 14:03
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Lakbay posted:Same thing with Bring Them Down, I use it on Cassia before her actual turn and she can only use officer abilities might not be a bug. if cassia also has seize the initiative, that's probably the "turn" you're triggering. the finest hour thing basically gives you infinite ap by bouncing it between people in a certain way that seems to give the next character full ap each time.
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Dec 30, 2023 14:09
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Yeah I've been getting bonus turns with full AP since the latest patch, instead of just 2 or whatever the scaling amount would be. Had anyone had this issue with the officer skill that eliminates the AP cost for the first ability used after the first heroic action in a battle? I always try to use the 2 AP free turn ability, but then it's never discounted in the future. And the heroic action I always use first is the officer one, after which the turn immediately goes back to them. I don't think it's the free +MP turn for officers I also have been getting screwing it up, but who knows.
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Dec 30, 2023 14:25
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I think that ability specifically excludes any action that would grant a free turn. I think that would be too easy to break.
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Dec 30, 2023 14:34
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would it now..
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Dec 30, 2023 14:44
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bobtheconqueror posted:I remember being kind of surprised that Dragon Age: Inquisition was playable to completion when that came out, especially after how disastrous and bad Dragon Age 2 was, but that's the only big example I can think of, and it was backed by one of the big publishers so had oodles of money to burn. I remember DA:O being mostly bug free as well
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Dec 30, 2023 14:59
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| # ? May 23, 2024 07:09 |
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FuzzySlippers posted:Your example of complicated crpgs released bug free are? Much simpler games are sometimes released in a relatively bug free but even that is rare. Usually the cost is more in working their devs to the bone and I like that Larian and Owlcat are supposed to be decent places to work. I can put up with a few bugs. I don't see why you're demanding I give examples of perfect games? My point is that buggy, incomplete games are getting high critical praise and doing fine in the market despite their flaws. It doesn't matter if it's shadowy money men or an indie company doing their best - the low bar is still a low bar. Like you explained why kotor 2 was a mess on release but you missed that I brought it up only to show how on release that mess barely mattered compared to its predecessor despite it producing an messier product. I spent 10 years in the gaming industry and part of that was as an analyst looking at what bugs drove negative sentiment to determine where to budget post launch dev time. With day 1 patches, post launch support and the rise of GaaS it's been a downward trend in how complete a game needs to be before a launch to satisfy critics and the market. This is simply a fact of the current game industry. If this is gonna be a weird sticking point with you - neverwinter nights has similar complexity to rogue trader (arguably more as a 3.5 adaption). From what I recall it didn't have anywhere near the level of game breaking bugs, inconsistent mechanics and tangled quest progression flags but I bet if someone looks hard enough there were other issues preventing it being 100% perfect. It's also worth pointing out that they had to build the Aurora engine as part of their budget rather than using a third party engine like Owlcat can with unity, which arguably makes the development process much less complex as more focus can be on system and narrative design where RT's most egregious problems lie.
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Dec 30, 2023 15:08
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