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i personally can't think of a better system for any team based multiplayer game than a straight elo system that they are currently using. if someone has a better idea beyond twiddling some of the knobs i'd like to hear it match quality will only suffer over time b/c it's a dying game that had its major investment pulled
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Jan 1, 2024 17:02
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comedyblissoption posted:i personally can't think of a better system for any team based multiplayer game than a straight elo system that they are currently using. if someone has a better idea beyond twiddling some of the knobs i'd like to hear it Several people expressed their problems with the matchmaking system and literally nobody said that the problem was the elo system, yet you chose to ignore that.
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Jan 1, 2024 17:08
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i'm saying that you can't get a system fundamentally better than this since it is the state of the art if you had a theoretically perfect matchmaking system, people would still be upset because they dont understand you have a decent chance of flipping tails 5 times in a row. hence why some devs are toying with matching people with bots as mentioned. if you want a casual experience where people take the game more seriously and don't auto-leave upon losing the first team fight, just change your mindset that ranked is in fact casual and press ranked.
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Jan 1, 2024 17:21
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comedyblissoption posted:i'm saying that you can't get a system fundamentally better than this since it is the state of the art Characterising the observed streaking as "flipping tails 5 times in a row" is disingenuous at best. It is more akin to flipping tails 5 times in a row, then flipping heads 6 times in a row, then flipping tails 5 times in a row... All your responses are canned versions of things that have been said elsewhere long ago in contexts where they were actually apt. They aren't particularly useful here and now. And it really, really needs to be said: Elo is how you determine someone's MMR. It's how you give them a rating. It's what you use to calculate their probable outcome against someone else of a given MMR. It is not a match making algorithm. It is an input to a match making algorithm. What you do with it is entirely contingent on your design goals for your matchmaking system.
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Jan 1, 2024 17:35
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if there's more streakiness than there should statistically be, it'd most likely be from MMR changing too rapidly during streaks as an attempt to mitigate smurfs ruining too many games the lopsidedness of many games is mainly b/c overwatch 2 is a lovely game that is way too snowbally. quickplay is going to be even more lopsided b/c of leavers. the core issues are the game sucks and the population is leaving, making the matchmaking situation dire for low pop areas. having a theoretically perfect matchmaker can't fix that.
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Jan 1, 2024 17:49
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I feel like people spend a lot of time focusing on matchmaking, which is very possibly not fixable, when I would say that the real thing that is wrong with the game is that if you want to get better at it, the game does pretty much nothing to help you, with the result that you spend a lot of time trying to climb and failing and not really understanding why or how you could improve.
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Jan 1, 2024 18:39
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I also think people don’t consider how much winning helps put you in the mindset to win more, and losing helps put you in the mindset to lose more (aka tilting). But how the matchmaker makes adjustments (you win 5 games, so the matchmaker makes a bigger mmr adjustment, but now they’re way too hard, and the matchmaker doesn’t undo that adjustment unless you lose 5 games, but now they’re way too easy…) feels more likely to be the answer that’s been looked for. Hey, with next season more of the matchmaker is being revealed (how much you go up and down per game, how large is the band of ranks in any individual game) so that we can all lay this to rest then.
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Jan 1, 2024 21:34
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As someone who plays another multiplayer battle arena game that has zero matchmaking at all for random battles, the people who think Overwatch is bad at it have no idea. You have no idea what it's like just randomly having teams full of top 1% players vs a bunch that don't even know basic mechanics. It's honestly so weird to me when people complain about it.
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Jan 2, 2024 04:45
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"there exists games that are worse than Overwatch, so there is no reason to complain about Overwatch being bad"
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Jan 2, 2024 04:50
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I'm not complaining, is the thing. I'm commenting on how it is at present to try to put clarity around the match-making. If I was genuinely disgusted by it I would not be playing multiple games every day. I am saying that there is a specific way that players need to approach match-making to be able to have a good time. Expecting more than it currently has to offer will lead to deep frustration. Understanding what you're getting mitigates that. It's fair to wish that it wasn't the way that it is, but it is that way, and it's still very possible to find lots of entertaiment in it. I just had a match on Suravasa that legitimately had me laughing until I was crying. The replay is like a comedy clip. I'm tempted to edit it and upload it.
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Jan 2, 2024 04:59
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Tuxedo Gin posted:"there exists games that are worse than Overwatch, so there is no reason to complain about Overwatch being bad" I'm just confused what people think is bad about it. It matches you with similar players. When st your skill level you float around 50% win rate. When you improve as a player, you win more games than you lose and you rank up. Seems like it works.
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Jan 2, 2024 05:04
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the reason quick play may not be generating entirely fair outcomes is because anyone of any MMR can queue together for it, and matchmaking algorithms generally need to do insane backflips to try and equalize MMR across teams under those conditions, especially if the population is already low and/or there's a lot of high MMR people queued with low MMR people i've played a lot of one of league's casual modes (ARAM) with no queue restrictions that used its own MMR system, and i was so high MMR that the system would frequently try to compensate by matching me with 4 silver-level people against a full 5 stack with masters+ players. i managed an above 50% WR because there were enough people to populate it and average out the severe swings in team MMR that sometimes happened, but if you're in what's traditionally a low population region in a game that's already on the ropes, the likelihood that the system just gives up and tosses two lopsided teams against eachother increases drastically, because the alternative is giving the impression of a dead game with 10+ minute queue times and causing even more people to jump ship
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Jan 2, 2024 05:10
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toadee posted:I'm just confused what people think is bad about it. It matches you with similar players. When st your skill level you float around 50% win rate. When you improve as a player, you win more games than you lose and you rank up. Seems like it works. In theory, yes, it is supposed to do that. It often fails at doing that (in favor of faster queue times, or because there aren't enough players, or any other reason) and that makes the game unfun for many people. That's why people complain.
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Jan 2, 2024 06:07
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Tuxedo Gin posted:In theory, yes, it is supposed to do that. It often fails at doing that (in favor of faster queue times, or because there aren't enough players, or any other reason) and that makes the game unfun for many people. That's why people complain. I don't think that's true. A plat player will dominate Gold. A diamond player will dominate plat. If you aren't climbing it's because you aren't measurably better than the players around you, period.
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Jan 2, 2024 07:02
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toadee posted:I don't think that's true. A plat player will dominate Gold. A diamond player will dominate plat. If you aren't climbing it's because you aren't measurably better than the players around you, period. I'm not talking about 'elo hell', and most people who bitch about Overwatch aren't either. They're complaining about match quality. If you're gold, it's unfun to have a massively lower ranked player on your team (or the enemy team - stomps aren't fun!) It has nothing to do with one's own rank, and everything to do with matches being unfun because the teams aren't balanced and in a game that tends towards stomp or be stomped, match quality is exceptionally important.
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Jan 2, 2024 07:54
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being placed in lobbies lower than your skill level makes it harder to climb bc you make no real sr gains for them, this was blindly obvious in ow1 and its going to get worse with wider matchmaking i dont see what is controversial about this, match making systems arent omnipotent gods
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Jan 2, 2024 07:58
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Jezza of OZPOS posted:being placed in lobbies lower than your skill level makes it harder to climb bc you make no real sr gains for them, this was blindly obvious in ow1 and its going to get worse with wider matchmaking i dont see what is controversial about this, match making systems arent omnipotent gods I heavily disagree. If you're in lower than your skill level's bracket you should win more games. Every time i've played an account lower than my skill level i've won 70%+ of my games up until I hit my expected rank, then i slowly petered out to around 50%. I've done this multiple times in the 8 years this game has been out (jesus gently caress). The only thing they did to change this was they stopped streaking past a certain point, so you only get 20-30sr a win, which their new system still does, but now its just hidden behind arbitrary bullshit (which i disagree with entirely, i like numbers, but hey ho). What exactly are people expecting 50% skill level SR to look like? Do you think it actually means win one lose one? That's never been how it's worked, in any game, ever. Sometimes you're playing hot and you streak a bit. Sometimes you aren't. Sometimes you get unlucky and queue into smurfs a couple times, sometimes they're on your team. The MMR system cannot account for human behavior at the time, all it can do is average with the data it's got. I do like how on the sheet said person's comments got more and more salty per loss though. The way OW is designed though is kinda boring right now though. If a team is a little better than the other one it can just appear like you're completely hosed, because of how snowbally it is. Higher ranks kinda make up for this with good ult usage for a reset and then they can try again, but lower ranks never do that and it just trickles forever into poo poo.
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Jan 2, 2024 13:02
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dogstile posted:What exactly are people expecting 50% skill level SR to look like? Games where you feel like you could have won, even when you didn't. Even in QP those games are EXTREMELY rare. This may not be a function of matchmaking, but it feels like it is.
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Jan 2, 2024 13:13
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Gravitas Shortfall posted:Games where you feel like you could have won, even when you didn't. Even in QP those games are EXTREMELY rare. This is why we keep harping at how much easier it is to snowball OW2. It’s the only merit to adding leaver penalties to Quick Play; OW2 can end so much faster that losing a teammate for a team fight or two can be a death sentence, and on average a Quick Play game will last 10 minutes or less. Thinking about some of the other discussions and complaints going on around the game, I also wonder if nerfing or removing the impactful defensive support abilities (Suzu, Immortality Field, Rez) and reworking things so that a lot of these offensive support ultimates are more defensive so the game goes back to ult vs. ult would help. Ultimates are the only across-the-board comeback mechanic the game has right now to help against snowballing. Syncing respawns (only in Quick Play) and Hero Swapping are there too but outside of higher level play they feel like soft ones.
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Jan 2, 2024 13:32
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dogstile posted:I heavily disagree. If you're in lower than your skill level's bracket you should win more games. Every time i've played an account lower than my skill level i've won 70%+ of my games up until I hit my expected rank, then i slowly petered out to around 50%. I've done this multiple times in the 8 years this game has been out (jesus gently caress). The only thing they did to change this was they stopped streaking past a certain point, so you only get 20-30sr a win, which their new system still does, but now its just hidden behind arbitrary bullshit (which i disagree with entirely, i like numbers, but hey ho). Yet another person not actually reading what I had to say and replying by rote to something that they're used to reading. This thread hasn't changed in 5 years.
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Jan 2, 2024 13:35
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ime the matchmaker works as well as i expect it to in ranked and quickplay.Proven posted:Ultimates are the only across-the-board comeback mechanic the game has right now to help against snowballing. snowballs are even stronger in ow2 because being down 1 person in a fight is more brutal than in overwatch 1, amplifying the effects of ultimates, quickplay leavers, and low elo (< gm) trickling.
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Jan 2, 2024 16:11
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toadee posted:As someone who plays another multiplayer battle arena game that has zero matchmaking at all for random battles, the people who think Overwatch is bad at it have no idea. You have no idea what it's like just randomly having teams full of top 1% players vs a bunch that don't even know basic mechanics. It's honestly so weird to me when people complain about it. That's just what every multiplayer fps game was before match-making. It wasn't that bad.
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Jan 2, 2024 16:18
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It's been discussed in this thread and just in general to the point of nausea over the years. The matchmaking in OW specifically blows because the game itself wants people to play it in a way that they are unwilling to. In order to rank up, you essentially need to understand what you are doing wrong, adjust, then hope that a bunch of other, equally or even more stubborn idiots who usually refuse to communicate effectively are willing to play the same game as you rather than the game they thought they were playing. Rather than being complex, it ends up being counterintuitive. It's also an objective-based game that is snowbally by several different factors, so when even one thing on a team breaks down, it could potentially be goodnight for the next 5+ minutes. Try explaining taking space, coordinating CDs, jumping off the map simply for the sake of herding the team together, or the fact that the roles are so uneven in terms of power levels to the average person who just wants to shoot stuff. edit: I should add, that if you are playing QP, all this bullshit is essentially multiplied by 2 or 3. You have a mode where there is an even greater tendency for players to just want to shoot random poo poo, that has even LESS matchmaking (i've been in QP games where the lowest ranked players on either team were silver and the highest were master), where people are less willing to communicate (I've been told to shut up for calling out which target I was shooting in QP many times, which is something i've never had happen or seen happen to another person in comp), and less willing to pick the right hero rather than the one they just feel like playing, where there is an overarching attitude of "It's QP bro" that people use to defend their unwillingness to play OW rather than whatever the hell they are trying to play. BabyRyoga fucked around with this message at 16:45 on Jan 2, 2024 |
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Jan 2, 2024 16:30
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it was actually really bad in the good old days. the only way you could find a game of actually decent players was to go on irc for pickup games or go in the few private passworded servers. pub players were much less likely to play objectives and try to win the game. players were far more likely to leave games or try to switch to the winning team. stomps were far more common.
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Jan 2, 2024 16:37
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comedyblissoption posted:it was actually really bad in the good old days. the only way you could find a game of actually decent players was to go on irc for pickup games or go in the few private passworded servers. pub players were much less likely to play objectives and try to win the game. players were far more likely to leave games or try to switch to the winning team. stomps were far more common. I think this problem has existed since OW 1 for sure, but it has compounded in many ways. Way fewer people play the game now, so if probably seems more streaky in the sense that you might get stuck in miserable games with the same players over and over again if you are playing for, let's say a few hours at a time. The disparity between power levels is also really bad with the 6v6 to 5v5 change which makes the game less FPS-y and more MOBA-like than ever.
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Jan 2, 2024 16:44
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you have to lower your expectatons and realize overwatch is a very complicated game and coordinated tight teamwork in any game is actually really difficult and not that simple. you basically have to get to the top of the ladder of an fps game for people to start using teamwork decently, because teamwork is hard. an easy way to force teamwork with no words is to pay attention to what your teammates are doing and play off them. follow their push direction. time your flank right after they make contact. focus whatever your winston is shooting. etc.
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Jan 2, 2024 16:46
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BabyRyoga posted:I think this problem has existed since OW 1 for sure, but it has compounded in many ways you're right it doesn't work well if a game has low pop and is dying. when i queued a while back you faced the same faces over and over again.
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Jan 2, 2024 16:47
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I don't even give a singular poo poo about climbing the ranks. All I wanted is for the game to give me balanced matches and it failed to do even that.
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Jan 2, 2024 16:52
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Gravitas Shortfall posted:Games where you feel like you could have won, even when you didn't. Even in QP those games are EXTREMELY rare. These games are rare because that's just rare period. Even games with very evenly matched extremely good players don't end up this way very often, because in basically any multiplayer game like this, mistakes compound, and the random interweaving of playstyles, not skill levels, makes certain groups better at the job than other groups, even when they are the same skill level. This is not an OW problem, this is just a reality of any complex multiplayer game.
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Jan 2, 2024 16:55
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comedyblissoption posted:ow1 and modern matchmakers fixed this issue! i can press the play ranked button and get people near my skill level who try to win the game and [usually] don't leave without having to spam for a pug in irc! I think the point is, that the "skill" level of the players you are going to find with said matchmaker isn't always going to dictate how well your game goes, because it is a big enough problem that different players, especially in middling ranks like platinum and diamond, will have different understandings of different factors. Also, another huge problem with OW is that the game balances games by absolute values rather than trying to find players that are more alike for the sake of finding much faster games. We'd rather queue and find a game in 2-5 minutes than 15-30 minutes, even if the latter promises a much more individually-tuned experience. So, the game for example would rather find 5 players to put onto both teams with a total combined MMR value of 15,000 rather than 10 players who all have EXACTLY (or very close to) 3000 MMR. You might get a player that has 3400 and one who has 2600 on each team, which is a huge issue. This is another one that absolutely has compounded over time, especially with role power level disparity, but it was a big problem in OW1 as well after the first 6 months or so. There are a million ways the matchmaker blows, it's definitely more than simply bad players crying. A lot of content creators at relatively high skill levels who have been playing for years have brought it to attention.
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Jan 2, 2024 16:59
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ow1 was able to afford remarkably narrow skill bands b/c of its popularity, but with decreasing investment and the inherent problems of role queue, the population cratered and queue times skyrocketed. high queue times are a vicious cycle that will kill your pop. the problems you are describing cannot be fixed by a better matchmaker. you need a high pop to sustain narrow skillbands with low queue times. the fundamental problem is the game itself.
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Jan 2, 2024 17:07
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They should make a less lovely game then.
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Jan 2, 2024 17:08
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comedyblissoption posted:an easy way to force teamwork with no words is to pay attention to what your teammates are doing and play off them. follow their push direction. time your flank right after they make contact. focus whatever your winston is shooting. etc. It's fun when you just wordlessly click with a player on your team. Often it's my other support, but sometimes there's a DPS who you just vibe with, and it's an extremely good time. Tanks, you just have to go with whatever they're doing. If they're inting in, gently caress it. Int in.
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Jan 2, 2024 17:10
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Jack Trades posted:They should make a less lovely game then. This, like even when I took breaks from OW before I'd come back for Holiday events. The game changes/monetization now just doesn't even make it worth the effort to load the Blizzard launcher.
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Jan 2, 2024 17:11
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Jack Trades posted:They should make a less lovely game then. Truth. I'm also seeing in the gaming news sphere lately that the devs are coming out with stories of how Bobby Crotchnik or whatever his name is essentially sabotaged the game. This is very true in the sense of diverting funds, changing expectations and design goals, imposing choices such as aggressive cosmetic monetization, etc, that have all impacted the game in a very negative way. At the end of the day though, it's idiot devs that make dog-poo poo balance and design decisions. 5v5? Idiot devs. Buffing/nerfing the wrong stuff? Devs. Fundamentally misunderstanding the way the game should be played at a sophisticated level? All devs. I have sympathy for Blizzard getting its lifeblood sucked out by a parasitic, unrealistically rich and morally bankrupt CEO, but not so much for - to put it as bluntly and rudely as possible - the devs being horseshit. The latter is also a problem of the company being in bad standing image-wise after the issues with harassment that took place over the last decade, and most of the quality devs leaving with new talent being weary of taking positions in the company. I actually have a close friend who works in sound design that told me he essentially sabotaged his own portfolio before sending it in to Blizzard a couple years back, simply so they would leave him the gently caress alone. And he even still put hundreds of hours into Diablo IV at this point.
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Jan 2, 2024 17:18
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overwatch occupies a niche for being the only popular high ttk fps game where you won't get aimbotted down by a roller player
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Jan 2, 2024 17:18
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Yeah, I think that's why most of us still care about it even a little bit. Since there is nothing else in that niche, all we can really do is complain about the garbage OW has become in hope that it will either get better, or something else will come along to fill the niche.
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Jan 2, 2024 17:23
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BabyRyoga posted:Yeah, I think that's why most of us still care about it even a little bit. Since there is nothing else in that niche, all we can really do is complain about the garbage OW has become in hope that it will either get better, or something else will come along to fill the niche. Ditto.
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Jan 2, 2024 17:39
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Welp, my mostly casual rear end just unlocked Mauga. Expect nerf announcements within the week.
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Jan 3, 2024 06:08
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BabyRyoga posted:Yeah, I think that's why most of us still care about it even a little bit. Since there is nothing else in that niche, all we can really do is complain about the garbage OW has become in hope that it will either get better, or something else will come along to fill the niche. yeah i feel this. was kinda hoping the finals would be an alternative since it's high(ish) ttk but the game did not mesh with my sensibilities at all that said i actually still love ow, still think it's super fun, and am really hoping it pulls out of a death spiral now that kotick is gone. the main thing that keeps me away from ow at times is the vibe, not the game itself
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Jan 3, 2024 07:36
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