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Oh! Big if true. e: Yeah you could definitely read this passage accordingly quote:A force grabbed her like a vast, invisible hand and pulled her away. A million tiny, unreal needles bore into her flesh and began to rip her apart. Oh, she thought, my father’s going to kill me. And then, the pain eased. Jim was beside her, and for a moment someone else was too, but she couldn’t see him. The glimmer in Jim’s eyes was brighter, and his skin had gone waxy with an eerie opalescence under it. His teeth were bared in raw, animal effort. General Battuta fucked around with this message at 21:18 on Feb 25, 2022 |
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Feb 25, 2022 21:15
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On the other hand, it's a little odd that Holden dosing himself up with the protomeme gives him immediate anti-Dragonball Z powers when I always thought that Duarte's ability to do that stemmed somewhat from Cortezar's experiments.
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Mar 4, 2022 12:25
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Milkfred E. Moore posted:On the other hand, it's a little odd that Holden dosing himself up with the protomeme gives him immediate anti-Dragonball Z powers when I always thought that Duarte's ability to do that stemmed somewhat from Cortezar's experiments. I thought it was more like it gave him access to the investigator again, who we know from book 4 can manipulate protomolecule tech. By the way, anyone check out Daniel Abraham's new book? I haven't yet, but would love to hear from someone who has
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Mar 4, 2022 13:15
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I've reread the entire series since November when I found out that Leviathan Falls finally had a release date, and looking at the last couple of books Duarte's reliance on using tit-for-tat really resonates as being an excellent indictment on how ultimately brutal, thuggish, stupid, and short-sighted the authoritarian/fascist mindset is. Tit for tat is not the optimal solution. Tit-for-tat, if adopted by both sides of equal reasoning ability, causes a single defection to spiral into an endless cycle of nothing but defection, forever. Even world-renowned insufferable fuckwit Dick Dorkins knows that tit-for-two-tats is the solution for a game of repeated Prisoner's Dilemma. But submoronic Space Hitler decided that he would play the strategy that, if adopted by both sides, would lead to a constant defection strategy upon the first defection, and then deliberately defected.
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Mar 5, 2022 00:17
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Yeah humanity did fine with the "volume limits" of the gate traffic being controlled by the Trade Union, until Laconia came along and dicked everyone with their antimatter weapon and then tried to get the upper hand by exploding a bomb while a ship transited. I love how in retrospect that idea is just such so dumb but lead to the escalation with the extra-dimensional entities. I also like the term "the third side" of the gates from one of the latter books.
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Mar 6, 2022 06:00
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New novella (plus the collection) is out today. I liked it, definitely a better coda to the series than the actual coda we got (though you certainly couldn't end that book with something like this, so no complaints).
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Mar 15, 2022 16:58
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Man some of these Naomi chapters in Tiamats Wrath are just a slog to get through. I dont remember them being nearly this boring in other books. I get that shes basically the only connection to the underground resistance left (outside of Bobbie and Alex doing fun things) but she really has nothing else to do but sit around and wish she was with Holden.
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Mar 16, 2022 05:34
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Those chapters really solidified my opinion that these books can make anything boring. You'd think running an entire interplanetary resistance and then eventually commanding the great space battle of our time for the future of free humanity would be really exciting, but all I can remember is a bunch of eating kibble, doing spreadsheets and being tired. The choice to focus only on the most absolutely mundane moment by moment details of this experience is probably meant to ground the story, but I think it's too well grounded, it loses all its charge. They love to do poo poo like this: quote:Chapter Twenty-Five: Naomi I think it ties into the way they constantly write Naomi as strangely passive. She's characterized by surviving things and escaping things and helping and feeling but rarely by doing or actively being. Even when she's practically the most important person in the plot she doesn't get to take center stage in her own inner monologue. She delivers a lot of exposition and ideas, but doesn't do much in her own head. Milky Moor's reread of the series reminded me about how in the early books she'd go off and have friends and do stuff offscreen, but it was all treated as cool girl things that the boys didn't really know about. This all works way better in the show because they have Dominique Tipper and Cara Gee to actually sell it. General Battuta fucked around with this message at 06:23 on Mar 16, 2022 |
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Mar 16, 2022 06:13
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I remember liking those chapters, in kind of a "no matter what you do in life, it's all going to be routine and depending on logistics / organization" kind of way. The long siege of Laconia stuff is written passively as well, isn't it? It's almost like a Wikipedia entry for a battle as opposed to the various scrums we get in, say, Babylon's Fall. Huh.
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Mar 16, 2022 14:20
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From memory, the siege of Laconia stuff is basically recounted in flashback in italics, like a Wikipedia article, yeah. When I was reading it I had the distinct impression that it was very much a 'We may not have the SFX budget for a big fleet engagement, so, let's try and get around it.' Otherwise, yeah, the Naomi chapters in Tiamat's Wrath are certainly up there in my 'worst sections of The Expanse' thoughts. Naomi herself is a character who spends far too much time being defined as "Jim Holden's girlfriend" despite being arguably better educated, generally more intelligent, and more principled than the leading man. In the first novel, she doesn't really do anything. In the second, she does argue against Holden's worsening tendencies -- but then just kind of overlooks them. In the third, she does give Clarissa hell as she tries to destroy the Rocinante which is a fun few chapters, but then I'm pretty sure she then spends the rest of the book confined to a hospital gurney. External Organs posted:I remember liking those chapters, in kind of a "no matter what you do in life, it's all going to be routine and depending on logistics / organization" kind of way. There's something to be said for it, but Battuta's point that if a story is too grounded it loses its charge is a good one. The novels never really reach for anything beyond that idea that humanity will never really change, but that is also presented without much consideration, it's just kind of accepted a priori. Despite all the internal monologuing the characters do about history or technology or human nature or politics, they never really come to any interesting conclusions. I don't really know how much of this comes down from the Corey team deliberately trying to keep the novels 'apolitical' or writing in a rush or whatever. There's a bit I just hit in the reread which I think is really indicative of how the pair don't really say anything and this really harms their characters and worldbuilding. It's in the third novel. Clarissa has just taken part in the mutiny (in the sense she was led up to the command deck as a prized show pony.) She thinks the mutiny is stupid because Earthers, Belters, Martians, whatever, are all the same and bleed the same blood. She also notices how the ships she's been working on as a maintenance tech often use the same parts, regardless of them being Earther or Belter, which she likens to the 'same blood' thought. One of these ships is the Nauvoo/Behemoth. We know from the second novel that Mao-Kwik, the company of Clarissa's father, was actually really heavily involved with the Protogen conspiracy. Mention is made that Mao-Kwik runs freighters on both Earth and Mars and that a lot of the material Protogen used to build its space infrastructure came from Mao-Kwik. So, the obvious connection here is that Mao-Kwik is not only profiting off the evil conspiracy but just the normal state of affairs around the Solar system. I think the TV series took this a step further and had Mao-Kwik construct the Protogen stealth ships or their fusion reactors were Mao-Kwik or something like that. So, why not connect the two dots? Clarissa is already turning against her father and nearly crippled by guilt. Have her pop open a panel and see a Mao-Kwik component on the Nauvoo, one of humanity's greatest achievements. Have her maybe grapple with the thought that even humanity's greatest ship is marked in its own way by the atrocities her father and his corporation committed. You could even have Clarissa be like, wow, the Nauvoo has evil in its very construction just like I do. Maybe it isn't just Clarissa's evil dad but a systemic issue. Maybe the 'nothing will ever change' cynicism isn't so much human nature but a result of the system we're trapped in? Instead, I think there's a lot of moments like this where either the Corey team simply doesn't want to be political or melodramatic and so it feels like there's all these points of interest floating around in the ether. The other thing is that they also seem to come up with a narrative spine and stick to it religiously, which is probably why they could put the books out so quickly, but this leads to a lot of moments where it feels like the characters can't work things out or have dramatic moments or take certain actions because the plot needs them to be in a certain place in a dozen chapters from now. Milkfred E. Moore fucked around with this message at 02:41 on Mar 17, 2022 |
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Mar 16, 2022 23:02
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Huxley posted:New novella (plus the collection) is out today. I really enjoyed it as well. Much better than I expected. I had completely forgotten about Filip and figured the authors were fine with letting his story just end at the end of Babylon's Ashes, but this was a great epilogue. I know the authors said that this was the end of The Expanse and no more content was coming out (except for that Telltale Expanse game) but reading that makes me wish someone would make a game that is Frostpunk esque where you need to guide a colony for as long as you can after the ring network collapses.
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Mar 29, 2022 03:18
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Real sad now that the series is over. Also feels kinda weird that both the last book and last novella ended the same way. Holden and Filip both did what they saw as necessary without asking anyone else. Holden injected himself and shut down the whole slow zone without consulting anyone, and Filip killed Jandro because he saw his own father in the guy. When Filip realized he was being exiled and was talking to just Nami I half expected him to explain who he was and why it was so important to him to stop Jandro before he became Marco. Just as some kind of finally coming to terms that he is Filip, son of Marco, out loud.
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Mar 29, 2022 19:44
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I started reading the first book. I watched all of the show first, but now I am watching the show alongside reading the book so I can see the differences. There are quite a bit so far! But what I like is that while how the characters get to a certain point is different in the show, the outcomes are usually the same. The show is really good, and the first book so far has been a joy to read.
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Jul 23, 2023 07:26
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The best part about the show is that it is kind of a redux of the books in a way because the authors were involved and used the TV format to expand on certain characters who don't appear right away in the novels.
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Jul 23, 2023 16:50
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I really love what they did with Ashford in the show. Having him and Drummer working together as a team is wonderful. I'm rewatching the show with my girlfriend (it is her first time seeing it) and his death is an episode or two away and I'm not looking forward to it.
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Jul 23, 2023 17:41
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so can I assume the read order in the OP is up to date or have there been additions to it since it was first posted?
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Jul 23, 2023 19:58
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It's accurate through book six. After Babylon's Ashes there is a 3rd trilogy plus a couple novellas. From https://expanse.fandom.com/wiki/Category:The_Expanse Strange Dogs: An Expanse Novella (July 18, 2017) The Expanse #7: Persepolis Rising (Dec 5, 2017) Auberon: An Expanse Novella (Nov 12, 2019) The Expanse #8: Tiamat's Wrath (Mar 26, 2019) The Expanse #9: Leviathan Falls (Nov 30, 2021) The Sins of our Fathers: An Expanse Novella (Mar 15, 2022)
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Jul 23, 2023 20:21
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Sorry in advance for book Elvi. She's basically exactly the same but for some reason they made her unreasonably horny for Holden. It is as the kids say, cringe.
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Jul 23, 2023 20:29
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drewhead posted:It's accurate through book six. After Babylon's Ashes there is a 3rd trilogy plus a couple novellas. Thanks! If op could edit these into the OP it will be helpful, otherwise I could do it to ensure it remains of greatest use to new readers such as myself, who is determined to finally read the copy of Leviathan Wakes I have had on my shelf for years
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Jul 23, 2023 23:38
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I've never like the Expanse's book titles. They just feel really unfitting and kinda generic.
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Jul 23, 2023 23:49
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Thanks for posting the book list. I haven’t read the final novella and that was a great reminder
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Jul 24, 2023 00:13
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The Expanse adventure game comes out in three days!
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Jul 24, 2023 00:40
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KPC_Mammon posted:I really love what they did with Ashford in the show. Having him and Drummer working together as a team is wonderful. I'm rewatching the show with my girlfriend (it is her first time seeing it) and his death is an episode or two away and I'm not looking forward to it. Ashford was the best example of a one dimensional boring character that was actually made interesting and nuanced with the show writing. Drummer taking on Bull's role in that arc felt weird at first, but it meant more Camina Drummer and I'll never say no to that.
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Jul 24, 2023 04:49
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Kchama posted:I've never like the Expanse's book titles. They just feel really unfitting and kinda generic. wrong, they rule
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Jul 24, 2023 06:53
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I can never remember which book goes with which title, just zero chance
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Jul 24, 2023 08:43
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Dandelion Sky 
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Jul 24, 2023 15:02
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I'm re-reading the series and just finished Babylon's ashes again. One thing that bugged me the entire story arc about the belt war was that belters really shouldn't have been a military threat on ships unless they ambushed others. They make a big deal about how belters can't handle heavy G, and their lack of training makes them ineffective in myriad ways, but apparently they are fine to fight under the same G as trained earth or mars soldiers with the same battle effectiveness? We know from real life that half trained militias get wiped out easily by professional soldiers in head on engagements, and the only thing that really works is insurgency, so the whole war rang hollow to me.
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Dec 24, 2023 16:25
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The idea that belters are biologically different from inners seems to have quietly vanished at some point. Naomi needs to take drugs to go to a planet and then later she doesn't.
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Dec 25, 2023 02:56
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I dunno, maybe the belter juice high g combat drugs they have are super effective but nasty and have side effects.
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Dec 25, 2023 19:24
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General Battuta posted:The idea that belters are biologically different from inners seems to have quietly vanished at some point. Naomi needs to take drugs to go to a planet and then later she doesn't. Yeah they definitely at least blurred the distinction as the series wore on.
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Dec 26, 2023 17:00
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External Organs posted:I dunno, maybe the belter juice high g combat drugs they have are super effective but nasty and have side effects. I feel like that should have been mentioned at some point if the authors intended it. Also, did they mention at all about Laconia taking families and children in the initial coup? I never noticed them say that, just that the military skedaddled, and then 30 years later they have a functional society. It would be really weird to have a society with nothing between the 30 year old and the 50 year olds.
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Dec 26, 2023 17:10
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Gophermaster posted:I feel like that should have been mentioned at some point if the authors intended it. It's not mentioned in Nemesis Games or Babylon's Ashes, but Persepolis Rising establishes that Singh was taken there as an adolescent. The problem is, even "almost a third" of the Martian navy retreating to Laconia isn't nearly enough to build a society of that size in thirty years, especially when only one of the ships was a capital ship. Persepolis Rising mentions that there were Earther colonists on the planet at the time of Duarte's arrival, but this only complicates things. External Organs posted:I dunno, maybe the belter juice high g combat drugs they have are super effective but nasty and have side effects. Pretty sure Babylon's Ashes has the crew on second-rate combat drugs when Marco ambushes them and they're just all-round worse. General Battuta posted:The idea that belters are biologically different from inners seems to have quietly vanished at some point. Naomi needs to take drugs to go to a planet and then later she doesn't. They just quietly edge it out of the worldbuilding, or forget. The first three books are pretty consistent, but Cibola Burn has the refugee ship possess enough drugs to let basically the whole complement of Belters live on Ilus, Babylon's Ashes introduces the idea of "severe" Belters (eg. Naomi, but not Marco and Filip), and by the time of the last three novels, it's like they've just forgotten all the biology stuff and Belter is just a cultural thing. It's also possible that it was a subtle retcon to fit the book Belters in with the show. Gophermaster posted:I'm re-reading the series and just finished Babylon's ashes again. One thing that bugged me the entire story arc about the belt war was that belters really shouldn't have been a military threat on ships unless they ambushed others. They make a big deal about how belters can't handle heavy G, and their lack of training makes them ineffective in myriad ways, but apparently they are fine to fight under the same G as trained earth or mars soldiers with the same battle effectiveness? The Free Navy is also really quite powerful for a raiding force made up of the small ships Duarte didn't want and, presumably, a bunch of converted gunships and pirate vessels. The biggest engagements in Sol's history go down between the Free Navy, Earth, and Mars -- and the two inner powers get pretty badly mauled.
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Dec 27, 2023 00:54
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They got the one lady in the first episode of the TV show who looks a little freaky and belter-ish but I just don't know how they would do that for so many characters for so many episodes without it being an animated show.
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Jan 2, 2024 16:22
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Teriyaki Hairpiece posted:They got the one lady in the first episode of the TV show who looks a little freaky and belter-ish but I just don't know how they would do that for so many characters for so many episodes without it being an animated show. It's why I think adapting the 3rd act of Seveneves will be extremely difficult. Evidently Ron Howard is developing it with Amazon last I heard, but that update was a few years ago.
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Jan 2, 2024 17:44
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they sort of blew their Belter budget in the first episode. that lady, the guy Ava tortures, a few others.
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Jan 2, 2024 17:54
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Milkfred E. Moore posted:
It’s been a little while since I read the books, but aren’t some of the early engagements handwaved away due to the bulk of Earth and Martian Navies needing to stay close to home to intercept thrown rocks? So what little forces Earth and Mars have outside Mars orbit are much more easily overwhelmed and/or surprised. Isn’t it a pretty big plot point that once the rocks are not a threat, the Free Navy starts a retreating action going full scorched earth to delay the various fleets as much as possible?
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Jan 2, 2024 19:26
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uber_stoat posted:they sort of blew their Belter budget in the first episode. that lady, the guy Ava tortures, a few others. Should have gotten Javier Botet and Doug Jones to play Belters.
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Jan 2, 2024 22:36
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Orvin posted:It’s been a little while since I read the books, but aren’t some of the early engagements handwaved away due to the bulk of Earth and Martian Navies needing to stay close to home to intercept thrown rocks? So what little forces Earth and Mars have outside Mars orbit are much more easily overwhelmed and/or surprised. The other biggest fleet action was the UN assault on the ring, and because the Free Navy knew exactly where those ships had to be and at what time they would be there, they were able to gently caress the UN fleet up with more stealth rocks, not an open battle. I don't recall Belters ever coming off well in an open slugfest.
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Jan 3, 2024 00:43
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uber_stoat posted:they sort of blew their Belter budget in the first episode. that lady, the guy Ava tortures, a few others. Ty has mentioned in some of the commentary stuff with Wes and others that there isn't a huge acting pool for those roles. The production team also thought it would have been a distraction from the story itself, which is ultimately about humanity as a whole.
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Jan 3, 2024 06:22
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CommanderApaul posted:Ty has mentioned in some of the commentary stuff with Wes and others that there isn't a huge acting pool for those roles. The production team also thought it would have been a distraction from the story itself, which is ultimately about humanity as a whole. Belters aren't part of the whole human race? Gee, Marco Inaros was right.
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Jan 3, 2024 08:12
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