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Who put the all the poor people in space in UC? Hmmm good question. Could it be the Federation? Could Zeon have some legitimate grievances about a negative peace imposed upon them? Alas, we will never know, as they are the Bad Guys.
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Jan 4, 2024 21:39
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brainwrinkle posted:Who put the all the poor people in space in UC? Hmmm good question. Could it be the Federation? Could Zeon have some legitimate grievances about a negative peace imposed upon them? Alas, we will never know, as they are the Bad Guys. Stop posting
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Jan 4, 2024 21:45
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If that's the tack your going with, then.
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Jan 4, 2024 21:45
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brainwrinkle posted:Who put the all the poor people in space in UC? Hmmm good question. Could it be the Federation? Could Zeon have some legitimate grievances about a negative peace imposed upon them? Alas, we will never know, as they are the Bad Guys.
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Jan 4, 2024 21:46
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Like if Zeon had NOT nuked and gassed a shitload of their fellow colonies as like, their literal day one strategy, it would be a very different conversation even if Operation British had still gone off target. You can say it's lame as poo poo that Tomino wrote it that way but that's pretty unambiguous, imo. And that's before getting into Zeon being ruled by an openly fascist aristocratic family.
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Jan 4, 2024 21:49
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It's OK to say that the Federation was kind of bad without veering into "the Nazi's had some good reasons to x" kind of rhetoric. Neither were good, the Fed got even worse after the OYW but Zeon are unambiguously "bad".
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Jan 4, 2024 21:54
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OYW is pretty nakedly modern Japanese government (Feddies) VS imperial Japan (Zeon). One of them is corrupt, servile, and completely unresponsive to the needs of the common people. The other one is psychopathic government by assassination with a literal state recognized aristocracy that claims to be an anti-colonialist force at the exact same time it is hyper-murdering the oppressed people it claims to free while engaging in its own special brand of colonialism and suppressing all the local poor with maximum violence.
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Jan 4, 2024 21:58
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I agree that the leadership of Zeon is unambiguously bad and fascist, but extending that to claim that every story featuring Zeon grunts is fashy is a stupid stretch. Mobile Suit Gundam goes out of its way to show that people fight for Zeon for real reasons beyond a fascist ideology. The core ideology of Zeon is co-opted by the fascist leadership.
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Jan 4, 2024 22:01
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golden bubble posted:OYW is pretty nakedly modern Japanese government (Feddies) VS imperial Japan (Zeon). One of them is corrupt, servile, and completely unresponsive to the needs of the common people. The other one is psychopathic government by assassination with a literal state recognized aristocracy that claims to be an anti-colonialist force at the exact same time it is hyper-murdering the oppressed people it claims to free while engaging in its own special brand of colonialism and suppressing all the local poor with maximum violence. brainwrinkle posted:I agree that the leadership of Zeon is unambiguously bad and fascist, but extending that to claim that every story featuring Zeon grunts is fashy is a stupid stretch. Mobile Suit Gundam goes out of its way to show that people fight for Zeon for real reasons beyond a fascist ideology. The core ideology of Zeon is co-opted by the fascist leadership.
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Jan 4, 2024 22:02
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brainwrinkle posted:
yes that's how fascism works
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Jan 4, 2024 22:04
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brainwrinkle posted:Who put the all the poor people in space in UC? Hmmm good question. Could it be the Federation? Could Zeon have some legitimate grievances about a negative peace imposed upon them? Alas, we will never know, as they are the Bad Guys. zeon has legitimate grievances that do not legitimize their actions. gundam rejects the framework of a hardline good guys vs bad guys narrative in creating a scenario where one side is plainly evil and genocidal, while the side fighting to stop them is deeply flawed and the emergence of zeon's radical action is ultimately a consequence of the federation's larger problems going unchecked for too long. it's a reasonably nuanced stance that i imagine isn't served well by what is apparently a presentation of a bunch of cute girls supporting the "mass murder now" side of the war without any critical lens being applied to their support. if there is nuance present in code fairy on the subject of the manner in which zeon chooses to engage in warfare and how that affects their legitimacy as a cause, it'd be cool to hear about that
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Jan 4, 2024 22:07
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Quattro Bajeena can’t beat these fashy allegations
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Jan 4, 2024 22:09
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brainwrinkle posted:Quattro Bajeena can’t beat these fashy allegations
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Jan 4, 2024 22:10
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Nessus posted:Lt. Bajeena? He's an honorable AEUG officer. Some way he might have been in the Zeon forces but he couldn't have done anything that remarkable. He certainly didn't execute a grudge that decapitated their leadership or anything. Honorable and fashionable!
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Jan 4, 2024 22:12
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brainwrinkle posted:I agree that the leadership of Zeon is unambiguously bad and fascist, but extending that to claim that every story featuring Zeon grunts is fashy is a stupid stretch. Mobile Suit Gundam goes out of its way to show that people fight for Zeon for real reasons beyond a fascist ideology. The core ideology of Zeon is co-opted by the fascist leadership. It becomes fashy when they literally bow and pray to the honor of a fash machine before repurposing it into their own war machine so they can go on slaughtering hundreds. There are good people in the Zeon machine but they're not the ones literally praying at the altar of Igloo.
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Jan 4, 2024 22:13
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it's very important when telling a story sympathizing with supporters of fascist regimes to establish that this sympathy does not extend to the regime itself, and that good people being placed in a position where they feel compelled to support a fascist regime is a tragedy and not something to celebrate or glorify. without this it's indistinguishable from fascist propaganda
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Jan 4, 2024 22:18
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ninjewtsu posted:if there is nuance present in code fairy on the subject of the manner in which zeon chooses to engage in warfare and how that affects their legitimacy as a cause, it'd be cool to hear about that It’s been two years so my recollection is hazy but: The main character is recruited out of the Flanagan Institute, so there’s certainly some elements of that. There’s also a mission where the orders for the squad are likely intended to get everyone killed after Kycillia bites it, since they’ve lost their sponsor. The commander has scenes where they struggle with that IIRC. It tries a little too hard to keep things light to really succeed on the drama of Zeon getting rolled near the end of the war. If they hadn’t pulled their punches on the last mission and actually killed off everyone it could have been interestingly tragic. Edit: ah yeah the commander of the squad is explicitly anti-Zabi. brainwrinkle fucked around with this message at 22:23 on Jan 4, 2024 |
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Jan 4, 2024 22:21
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I feel like it's telling that like probably the most iconic "grunts in Zeon can be good people" thing in the original show is the ones they show helping a family in need and getting shot down for it, not the ones buzzsawing through hapless GMs piloted by the most evil people in existence. People who genuinely express doubt and concern and are shown to not want to hurt people, not the people who get super excited about customizing their own war machines and who show more emotion over losing their comfy base than they do the people they hurt or kill.brainwrinkle posted:There’s also a mission where the orders for the squad are likely intended to get everyone killed after Kycillia bites it, since they’ve lost their sponsor. No, that is Gihren Zabi pulling a power-play. The series ends at the end of the OYW, just after Kycilia dies. It's even painted explicitly as "Oh well he just doesn't believe in female pilots/hates his sister" and not a failure of ideology.
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Jan 4, 2024 22:21
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Noisy Fairy Squadron isn't some ragtag group of Time, Be Still conscripts thrown into a war against their will by the desires of their fascist overlords. It's an elite squadron that is part of a division directly under the control of Kycillia Zabi and Zeon went out of their way to cover up records of the unit's role during the war. In the real world all that does is explain why they've never been heard of in any other UC material. It's very much a case of the story wanting to have its cake and eat it too by embracing the power fantasy of being a super elite badass Zeon Ace in a tricked out custom suit without having to really come to terms with what being a Zeon Ace actually entails and what is required to get to that point. Arc Hammer fucked around with this message at 22:35 on Jan 4, 2024 |
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Jan 4, 2024 22:31
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brainwrinkle posted:It’s been two years so my recollection is hazy but: this sounds like paper thin lip service to me if i'm being honest, but it's good to know that it's there in some capacity
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Jan 4, 2024 22:39
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Yeah I’ve never claimed that Code Fairy is high art, but to say it’s equivalent to IGLOO because there’s a Hildofr and Zeon soldiers is ludicrous.
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Jan 4, 2024 22:45
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Arc Hammer posted:Noisy Fairy Squadron isn't some ragtag group of Time, Be Still conscripts thrown into a war against their will by the desires of their fascist overlords. It's an elite squadron that is part of a division directly under the control of Kycillia Zabi and Zeon went out of their way to cover up records of the unit's role during the war. In the real world all that does is explain why they've never been heard of in any other UC material. Yeah, I feel like it needs to be clear here: They get to sit around a comfy mansion which is well-stocked and throw holiday parties and poo poo in between going off on killing missions, which they go on entirely and 100% eagerly. If you replaced them with grizzled 40-something dudes it would both be hilarious and really drive home that they are not drafted soldiers but a super-elite black ops squadron.
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Jan 4, 2024 23:10
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i'm gonna be honest dude there's not a wide margin between the two
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Jan 4, 2024 23:12
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ImpAtom posted:Yeah, I feel like it needs to be clear here:
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Jan 4, 2024 23:32
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I could absolutely go for a Kelly's Heroes but Gundam show about Feddie and Zeke deserters robbing the bank where Char got all his gold he gives to Sayla that one time.
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Jan 4, 2024 23:45
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lmao that Heine exists to show up, pretend he's the coolest person in the world, die because he's an idiot, and everyone stands around crying over him as he's ejected from the opening credits like two episodes later. I love that shot showing like, two entire lines of crew body bags no one gives a poo poo about but every notable character is just huddled in a corner crying about the dude they knew for all of a weekend.
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Jan 5, 2024 00:56
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You're telling me this isn't cool???
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Jan 5, 2024 00:59
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I do kind of want to see a hypothetical Destiny where instead of them making the absolutely brain-blastingly idiotic decision of deciding to hire an impossibly expensive and busy pop star to voice Heine so they had to kill him off ASAP, they hired a normal voice actor and he lived a bit longer and sort of became the Mwu of the Minerva crew, i.e. the older veteran who isn't as hot poo poo as the new kid but has some experience to back him up. It would have been a pretty interesting role to have around once Athrun fucks off, and given Athrun's friendship with him it would have been interesting for the two of them to have a conversation once Athrun rejoined the Archangel and came into conflict with the Minerva.
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Jan 5, 2024 01:25
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brainwrinkle posted:Yeah I’ve never claimed that Code Fairy is high art, but to say it’s equivalent to IGLOO because there’s a Hildofr and Zeon soldiers is ludicrous. yeah code fairy just sucks because you can't tool around as the ak47 regz or mass production double zeta or other idiot two comic book panel mobile suits
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Jan 5, 2024 03:09
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uninterrupted posted:yeah code fairy just sucks because you can't tool around as the ak47 regz or mass production double zeta or other idiot two comic book panel mobile suits It takes place in the One Year War
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Jan 5, 2024 03:11
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Arc Hammer posted:I could absolutely go for a Kelly's Heroes but Gundam show about Feddie and Zeke deserters robbing the bank where Char got all his gold he gives to Sayla that one time. I’m debating in my head whether Oddball would be in a Type 61 tank or some kind of GM… The bank is obviously guarded by 3 Gelgoogs and the townspeople at the end think they’re liberated by General Revil.
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Jan 5, 2024 03:14
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Kanos posted:I do kind of want to see a hypothetical Destiny where instead of them making the absolutely brain-blastingly idiotic decision of deciding to hire an impossibly expensive and busy pop star to voice Heine so they had to kill him off ASAP, they hired a normal voice actor and he lived a bit longer and sort of became the Mwu of the Minerva crew, i.e. the older veteran who isn't as hot poo poo as the new kid but has some experience to back him up. It would have been a pretty interesting role to have around once Athrun fucks off, and given Athrun's friendship with him it would have been interesting for the two of them to have a conversation once Athrun rejoined the Archangel and came into conflict with the Minerva. It would have made Athrun's reaction to his death make a lot more sense given that in the very next episode he's putting it on the same level as Nichol's death. But like, my dude; you barely knew him.
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Jan 5, 2024 03:16
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Gripweed posted:It takes place in the One Year War That has not stopped Thunderbolt
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Jan 5, 2024 03:17
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fartknocker posted:I’m debating in my head whether Oddball would be in a Type 61 tank or some kind of GM… Revil? He's not even in this war!
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Jan 5, 2024 03:21
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Zore posted:That has not stopped Thunderbolt Thunderbolt takes place almost entirely after The One Year War
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Jan 5, 2024 03:25
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tsob posted:That sounds like an insult to both versions of The Producers, though making either Gundam property a camp musical could only improve them. Nah, like literally the script written by Franz Liebkind, not the versions we got in the various Producers. Though I would 10,000% watch the camp floor routine of Gayren Zabi and his assistant, Haman Ghia. fartknocker posted:I’m debating in my head whether Oddball would be in a Type 61 tank or some kind of GM… Why don't you knock it off with them negative flashes?
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Jan 5, 2024 03:28
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the fash moe game is kind of funny but I wasn't prepared for someone to actually bring actual zeon apologia into the thread
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Jan 5, 2024 03:37
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Is this bad no good terrible game translated or what
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Jan 5, 2024 03:48
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Yeah, it's translated. It's even on sale for $15 if you want to experience the pinnacle of Gundam video game facism yourself! https://store.playstation.com/en-us/concept/10001164/
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Jan 5, 2024 03:51
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Ah PlayStation huh I guess my pure mind will be protected.
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Jan 5, 2024 03:54
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