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Morrow posted:Yes, so now we've arrived at the crux of the issue. The right-wing doesn't care about whether or not it's true, the goal is to propagate the idea through as many people and avenues as possible to do harm. In academic terms we're working off different rubrics and unfortunately people respond more to the methods here than to the idea itself. Maybe the right doesn't care whether or not it's true, but that doesn't mean it doesn't matter whether or not it's true. When things are true, we should just accept them as reality, instead of trying to follow the example of the most delusional parts of the far right by blotting out the truth with blatantly self-serving lies.
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Jan 4, 2024 02:51
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The feds have pretty loving big guns to bring to bear for labor violations AIUI, the question is whether they actually want to use them, either because they don't care enough to bother themselves or they calculate they don't want to piss some rich rear end in a top hat off.
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Jan 4, 2024 02:56
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AlternateNu posted:Guarantee you if that happened, 90% of the engineers at SpaceX would just jump ship from federal service and relaunch under another name w/o (or maybe with?... I hear lots of conflicting reports from acquaintances at SpaceX) Elon at the helm. increasingly, 'without' – but honestly the 90% figure is one i would absolutely bet against. getting a surprise national incorporation at existing pay rate plus federal benefits / pension is something I think the overwhelming majority of the engineers would be happy to sit around for
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Jan 4, 2024 04:21
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Main Paineframe posted:Maybe the right doesn't care whether or not it's true, but that doesn't mean it doesn't matter whether or not it's true. No one is saying Biden/Gay haven't plagiarized (in the literal sense), the problem is that the amount of time and words spent on an issue is a choice you make and when the NYT and this thread spend a fuckload of words on this poo poo we all get held hostage by this dumb back and forth. The reason this was pursued is because people had it out for Gay, it's true but incidental that she plagiarized. The plagiarism isn't new, she hasn't published in 7 years, this happened because Elise Stefanik and certain Harvard donors wanted to find a reason to start a "libs in disarray" narrative. No one thinks Gay should be reinstated, no one gives a poo poo about her honor - the amplification of the issue is the right wing tactic, not the fact itself
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Jan 4, 2024 05:29
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Discendo Vox posted:In brief some of the dissertation material from 1997 included plagiarism of an unambiguously clear form; the source wasn't reliably cited and it's clear Gay started with the source text and didn't really even try to paraphrase. Subsequent plagiarism during her career was somewhat more ambiguous because they involved descriptions of procedural or technical elements where the exact description is pretty mandatory. This Crimson article does the best summary and breakdown of each alleged case. That article has examples from before 97 too:  Some of the authors say they don't feel like they were plagiarized but by the standards I've been taught, I'm pretty sure I would get an F for the entire course if I was caught lifting entire sentences without attribution. Like with Hunter, it would've never been discovered if it wasn't for the politics, but he did gently caress up with taxes and the gun, and she did with plagiarism and getting into stupid arguments. I don't see why they should be exempt from consequences. AlternateNu posted:Guarantee you if that happened, 90% of the engineers at SpaceX would just jump ship from federal service and relaunch under another name w/o (or maybe with?... I hear lots of conflicting reports from acquaintances at SpaceX) Elon at the helm.
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Jan 4, 2024 05:35
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BougieBitch posted:No one is saying Biden/Gay haven't plagiarized (in the literal sense), the problem is that the amount of time and words spent on an issue is a choice you make and when the NYT and this thread spend a fuckload of words on this poo poo we all get held hostage by this dumb back and forth. The reason this was pursued is because people had it out for Gay, it's true but incidental that she plagiarized. The plagiarism isn't new, she hasn't published in 7 years, this happened because Elise Stefanik and certain Harvard donors wanted to find a reason to start a "libs in disarray" narrative. No one thinks Gay should be reinstated, no one gives a poo poo about her honor - the amplification of the issue is the right wing tactic, not the fact itself The NYT is a moderately pro-Israel outlet which generally writes from the position that Israel's grievances and concerns are more legitimate than Palestinian grievances and concerns. Moreover, as a publication that fundamentally reflects the concerns and priorities of the New York elite, the paper is massively disproportionately concerned with cultural and political conflicts in elite Northeastern universities, and it generally approaches them from a moderately conservative perspective. The NYT isn't running a bazillion anti-Gay articles because it's been duped by conservatives into not realizing the political implications, it's running them because it has an institutional tendency to view this particular set of issues from a conservative perspective in the first place.
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Jan 4, 2024 05:45
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Main Paineframe posted:The NYT is a moderately pro-Israel outlet which generally writes from the position that Israel's grievances and concerns are more legitimate than Palestinian grievances and concerns. Moreover, as a publication that fundamentally reflects the concerns and priorities of the New York elite, the paper is massively disproportionately concerned with cultural and political conflicts in elite Northeastern universities, and it generally approaches them from a moderately conservative perspective. And it also attracts increased attention from a lot of the NY Times' reader base and its journalism staff. https://theintercept.com/2018/05/06/newsroom-diversity-new-york-times-wall-street-journal/
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Jan 4, 2024 06:23
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Jaxyon posted:Everyone plagiarizes. You are projecting your own beliefs and practices unto others. No, not everyone plagiarizes. It is very simple to appropriately cite one’s sources and thereby avoid plagiarism. Millions of students manage to do it every year! gurragadon posted:I'm not going to support her just because she was attacked by the right-wing media apparatus, but Harvard response is pretty inconsistent if they want to say it's about plagiarism. They kept her on as a tenured professor. If she was removed for plagiarism, she should be removed from a teaching job not the administrative job. Yes, agreed. She’s more qualified to serve as administrator than as faculty.
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Jan 4, 2024 11:50
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The Top G posted:You are projecting your own beliefs and practices unto others. No, not everyone plagiarizes. It is very simple to appropriately cite one’s sources and thereby avoid plagiarism. Millions of students manage to do it every year! As a recovering academic I disagree with this. Or at least I disagree with the notion that it's simple. I probably read ~6000 pages of source material - all of which was focused on the same tiny topic - when working on my dissertation. I'm certain that somewhere in there I used a sentence structurally similar to something the source material. I'm honestly not sure how I could possibly avoid doing that. If you read the same or similar things over and over again for months, you're going to absorb some of the common phrases and sentence structures into your writing, and if someone looks long and hard enough (especially with an agenda), they'll certainly find something they could plausibly pass off as plagiarism. I agree that it's simple to avoid blatant and egregious plagiarism. If it's so simple to cross check every sentence of a 200-page dissertation against every possible source you've read (some of which are are arcane or pre-print works that aren't digitized into any plagiarism detection database), I'd love to hear it.
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Jan 4, 2024 16:36
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BRAKE FOR MOOSE posted:Ackman posted a huge screed going off on DEI as a concept; on top of the affirmative action ruling, higher education will be taking a giant step back. Fence-sitting liberals, which makes up the vast majority of the academy, have collapsed under this threat and we're going to see a notable regression in diversity efforts, and a lot more willful ignorance of fascist bullshit. That'll have pretty significant effects everywhere. The firings and the plagiarism are only a fraction of the effectiveness at undermining DEI as the actual testimony itself. People on the left are bemoaning how unprepared or untrained these Presidents were, but that beggars belief. They *are* intelligent, well-spoken, well trained leaders, they’re just used to speaking dogma to the already-initated. You can see it in their posture and tone - the idea that what they’re saying could be viewed as hypocritical or absurd to anyone outside their bubble just never entered their minds. None of them walked out of there thinking they’d be fired. They told on themselves, and exposed DEI as being (charitably) unequipped to handle an actually complicated situation, where people don’t fall neatly into the hammer or nail category.
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Jan 4, 2024 17:09
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TheDisreputableDog posted:They told on themselves, and exposed DEI as being (charitably) unequipped to handle an actually complicated situation, where people don’t fall neatly into the hammer or nail category. Have you read this sentence you wrote here? You are conflating what privilege does to individuals with race and gender. That’s generally considered racism and bigotry. Can you explain and support your argument further or explain how it isn’t racist?
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Jan 4, 2024 17:55
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Biden could not in theory pardon the Ohio woman being charged for her miscarriage right? That story is awful.
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Jan 4, 2024 18:00
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Nonsense posted:Biden could not in theory pardon the Ohio woman being charged for her miscarriage right? Federal pardons only apply to federal offenses.
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Jan 4, 2024 18:02
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Republicans might actually give up on any spending cuts and accept a full year budget funded at current levels. This is because they want to have a budget fight about the border, which they see as a major political winner for them, and not about spending overall or government shutdowns during an election year. They want to reject Biden's request for more resources at the border for processing and instead propose more resources for enforcement, less resources for processing, and more extreme administrative changes on asylum policy that aren't directly budgetary. Additionally, they are planning to hold impeachment hearings for DHS Secretary Alejandro Mayorkas within the next week. https://twitter.com/AndrewDesiderio/status/1742924881564713329 Nonsense posted:Biden could not in theory pardon the Ohio woman being charged for her miscarriage right? No, it's a state crime. It's also technically not being charged under any abortion related law or anything related to Roe v. Wade. She is being charged with abusing a corpse, which is a law Ohio passed in 1996, because she dumped the fetus in a toilet and buried part of it in a bucket. The Ohio AG is also not super likely to convict her because the law has never been used to define a dead fetus as a corpse before. Leon Trotsky 2012 fucked around with this message at 18:15 on Jan 4, 2024 |
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Jan 4, 2024 18:08
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Gnumonic posted:As a recovering academic I disagree with this. Or at least I disagree with the notion that it's simple. I probably read ~6000 pages of source material - all of which was focused on the same tiny topic - when working on my dissertation. I'm certain that somewhere in there I used a sentence structurally similar to something the source material. I'm honestly not sure how I could possibly avoid doing that. If you read the same or similar things over and over again for months, you're going to absorb some of the common phrases and sentence structures into your writing, and if someone looks long and hard enough (especially with an agenda), they'll certainly find something they could plausibly pass off as plagiarism. They have electronic tools for it now. She didn't when she wrote her dissertation because it was, like you, decades ago.
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Jan 4, 2024 18:18
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Bar Ran Dun posted:Have you read this sentence you wrote here? Seconding this. Also a response to the effort post I quoted earlier would be great.
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Jan 4, 2024 18:18
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:The Ohio AG is also not super likely to convict her because the law has never been used to define a dead fetus as a corpse before. It’s in Warren, what I’ve been told by family who live there (who were cops) about the cops involved (and this was well before this happened) is that they are extremely lovely and not well liked even by other cops. Basically this is a bit much even for extremely conservative folks in rural Ohio.
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Jan 4, 2024 18:19
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Bar Ran Dun posted:It’s in Warren, what I’ve been told by family who live there (who were cops) about the cops involved (and this was well before this happened) is that they are extremely lovely and not well liked even by other cops. yeah. i am curious if their wont be some fractures in the ohio GOP over social stuff. the dewine types are obviously fine with broad lovely stuff but dont want to commit to anything like this or the "gently caress trans people/kids" bill while the hardliners want everything even if it implodes the state party. Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:Republicans might actually give up on any spending cuts and accept a full year budget funded at current levels. I think it would play better IF its clear biden/dems didnt make concessions, the thing is its clear biden and the dems will make concessions in various areas and that the senate gop will probably agree with them, then its down to the house killing it for not going far enough. then either a shutdown or some inter gop house fight kicks up.
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Jan 4, 2024 18:40
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TheDisreputableDog posted:The firings and the plagiarism are only a fraction of the effectiveness at undermining DEI as the actual testimony itself. I gotta be honest, I couldn't figure out what the actual problem with the testimony was. But I didn't dig too deep into it. Can you explain it?
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Jan 4, 2024 18:53
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GlyphGryph posted:I gotta be honest, I couldn't figure out what the actual problem with the testimony was. But I didn't dig too deep into it. Can you explain it? The administrators used the answer for Israel that chuds have been demanding they give for trans people (ie you have to allow people to call for the genocide of trans people, first amendment freeze peach), mistakenly applying it as an actual policy instead of just an excuse chuds want to call for the murder of trans people without getting pushback
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Jan 4, 2024 19:09
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Both sides hall of famer here from the AP https://twitter.com/AP/status/1742878758275518896 It's interesting because the article is unequivocal about the facts of the matter: quote:Trump supporters stormed the Capitol in an attempt to stop Congress from certifying Biden’s victory, and they forced lawmakers and then-Vice President Mike Pence to flee for their lives. Many Trump loyalists walked to the Capitol after a rally outside the White House in which the Republican president exhorted the crowd to “fight like hell” or “you’re not going to have a country anymore.” But what about the narratives?? quote:With Biden and Trump now headed toward a potential 2020 rematch, both are talking about the same event in very different ways and offering framing they believe gives them an advantage. The dueling narratives reflect how an attack that disrupted the certification of the election is increasingly viewed differently along partisan lines — and how Trump has bet that the riot won’t hurt his candidacy. quote:In the ad, Biden says, “There’s something dangerous happening in America.” Both sides are saying things about it, you can't deny that. Yes sir, each candidate is saying these words, this is the objective truth. Maybe for the kicker we could get some Ivy League professor to scold both sides for causing the problem, equally. quote:“When each side starts talking about the other as a threat to democracy — whatever the reality is — that’s a sign of a democracy that’s deconsolidating,” said Daniel Ziblatt, a government professor at Harvard University and co-author of the book “How Democracies Die.” Perfect. https://twitter.com/JakeSwearingen/status/1742992858288705564 Also the Gay firing has triggered plagiarism MAD zoux fucked around with this message at 21:06 on Jan 4, 2024 |
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Jan 4, 2024 21:02
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A ton of grab-bag economic data out all at once: - Job market beat expectations and is still strong. The labor market is likely to remain tight for the foreseeable future. quote:Private payrolls increased by 164,000 for the month, higher than the 101,000 in November and better than the 130,000 estimate. - Demand for mortgages fell in December and continues to be fairly low. It's down another 12% since last year. quote:Housing demand remained muted even with the recent drop in rates. Applications for a mortgage to purchase a home dropped 5% from two weeks earlier. Application volume is down 12% compared with the same time last year. - New car sales are up 7.1%. The American car industry had its best year since 2019. Electric car sales are rising rapidly, but still represent a small share of the market (~10% of new car sales last year and still only ~2% of all cars in the U.S. overall are electric). Americans still love pick-up trucks and SUVs. quote:For the 47th year in a row, Ford F-Series was America's best-selling truck and America's best-selling vehicle for the 42nd year in a row. - Gas is about as cheap as it has ever been (when adjusted for inflation) and grocery store prices are still near record highs. Grocery store prices are trending downward, but still rising faster than overall inflation and still near the highs hit in late 2022. Gas prices are at $2.99 or less in more than half the country. California still has the most expensive gas in the country with an average of $4.81 per gallon. - Seven states — California, Colorado, Connecticut, Illinois, Maryland, Oregon and Virginia now have experimental "auto-IRA" plans that require employers to provide 401(k) accounts to all employees or opt-in to a state run IRA program for its workers. The goal is to cover the 48% of people that have no access to retirement accounts through their employer. quote:Auto-IRA is shorthand for an automatic-enrollment individual retirement account. These programs require companies of a certain size to offer a workplace retirement plan of their own or facilitate payroll deduction into a state-sponsored IRA, at no cost to the employer. 8 more states are slated to bring auto-IRA programs and requirements for employers to provide retirement benefits by 2025: quote:More states are poised to bring programs online in the next few years: Delaware, Hawaii, Maine, Minnesota, Nevada, New Jersey, New York and Vermont, according to the Center for Retirement Initiatives. So far, about 800,000 people participate in auto-IRAs (less than 1% of working adults), but it will likely increase and seems to be effective at allowing people to save for retirement when they previously did not have access. These people all technically had access to personal IRAs before, but people are 15x more likely to save for retirement when it is done through their employer than they are to go set up an IRA on their own. quote:About 57 million people — 48% — don't have access to a pension or 401(k)-type plan at work, according to the University of Pennsylvania's Pension Research Council. Yet, Americans are 15 times more likely to save for retirement when they have a workplace plan, AARP Research found. (They're 20 times more likely to do so if automatically enrolled.) quote:More than 800,000 workers participate in auto-IRAs, which hold more than $1 billion in total savings, according to The Pew Charitable Trusts. https://www.cnbc.com/2024/01/04/private-payrolls-added-164000-in-december-beating-expectations-adp-says.html https://www.foxbusiness.com/economy/mortgage-demand-plummets-again-despite-drop-interest-rates https://www.cnbc.com/2024/01/04/state-run-auto-ira-programs-aim-to-close-retirement-savings-gap.html https://www.cnbc.com/2024/01/04/ford-reports-7point1percent-increase-in-us-vehicle-sales.html Leon Trotsky 2012 fucked around with this message at 21:14 on Jan 4, 2024 |
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Jan 4, 2024 21:03
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:A ton of grab-bag economic data out all at once: i think it's better than nothing, but the total expense ratios in california have been very disappointing for an institutional plan. currently there's an administrative fee of 30 bps which is pretty steep (my calpers 401k has much lower admin costs once you hit ~20k in assets), but up until june of last year the admin fees were a whopping 80 bps, which is just sheer highway robbery
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Jan 4, 2024 21:28
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The last holdout on reducing the price of insulin has given in. All major insulin producers that sell in the U.S. will now cap their prices at $35 for the general public. They aren't doing it out of the kindness of their hearts because their hand was basically forced. The IRA provision capping insulin prices for Medicare beneficiaries at $35 and generic versions of specific types of insulin coming out in the next year basically forced their hand. Sanofil held out on reducing the price after the two other manufacturers agreed to lower it last year, but they have now joined them. Seems like a silly decision to hold out a year and then give in a year early. Nobody is going to give them any credit for being later than everyone else, but technically lowering the price before they would be forced to do it because of generics/losing a patent. https://twitter.com/kylegriffin1/status/1743003127710617831
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Jan 4, 2024 21:32
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GhostofJohnMuir posted:i think it's better than nothing, but the total expense ratios in california have been very disappointing for an institutional plan. currently there's an administrative fee of 30 bps which is pretty steep (my calpers 401k has much lower admin costs once you hit ~20k in assets), but up until june of last year the admin fees were a whopping 80 bps, which is just sheer highway robbery That is pretty not great for retirement plan from being a public employee. I'm not sure what kind of expense ratio the auto-IRA plans are running in each of these states. Most of them are two days old and I don't see a lot of specifics. It seems logical that they would roll them into Calpers or something similar, but I don't know if they actually are or are segregating them off into their own thing. Edit: The Maryland version has a 0.18% admin fee. It's "better than nothing," but pretty bad for what is basically just the state setting up your IRA and managing the deposits. The main benefit seems to be that most of the people who participate in these plans would have done nothing otherwise. Leon Trotsky 2012 fucked around with this message at 21:47 on Jan 4, 2024 |
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Jan 4, 2024 21:36
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zoux posted:Also the Gay firing has triggered plagiarism MAD It’s a little funny but overall it sucks because all this is going to do is discredit academia as an institution in the eyes of many.
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Jan 4, 2024 21:52
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Misunderstood posted:It’s a little funny but overall it sucks because all this is going to do is discredit academia as an institution in the eyes of many. So all according to plan for the Republicans?
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Jan 4, 2024 21:57
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The right does not give a poo poo about plagiarism. They openly plagerize poo poo all the time. Melania's speech comes to mind and there were several other high profile accusations of Trump-sphere allies a few years back. They love poo poo like this because they know the left and the liberals have scruples and they don't. I'm not suggesting we just ignore injustice when it's on our side but the reality is this tactic dismantles and undermines the left while having zero effect on the right. I can't think of anything that would affect the right in that way. Maybe a naked confession that all of it is performance and its about the cash but even then.
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Jan 4, 2024 22:05
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Mendrian posted:The right does not give a poo poo about plagiarism. They openly plagerize poo poo all the time. Melania's speech comes to mind and there were several other high profile accusations of Trump-sphere allies a few years back. A plagiarism accusation on your academic papers for someone who is a President and Lecturer at Harvard is different than one for the first lady (or even President). The expectation is that if you are teaching at Harvard, then you are an author of original scholarly work and uniquely intelligent. Harvard doesn't want their reputation to be "your kids will get an education from a fraud here" when their whole brand is "only the best of the best teach here."
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Jan 4, 2024 22:12
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:
$165/month is significant?
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Jan 4, 2024 22:13
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Ither posted:$165/month is significant? If you've never saved for retirement in your life and you're making ~$30k, then going from $0 to $165 a month in savings is pretty significant.
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Jan 4, 2024 22:14
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Ither posted:$165/month is significant? It is if you start with a decade or two of career left
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Jan 4, 2024 22:15
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 I have to think they write these stories because so many people click on them. Basically news is now a trolling based business. The only time I see a Bad Column is because it went viral from the dunks. Well, dunk clicks count the same as sincere clicks, stop enthusiastically engaging with the service and they will scale it back.
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Jan 4, 2024 22:23
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Ither posted:$165/month is significant? If someone works 40 years and gets a 6% return it works out to $300k at retirement. It’s not a lot if you’re 10 years from retirement, but over a whole career it is.
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Jan 4, 2024 22:25
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zoux posted:Basically news is now a trolling based business. I don't think this is anything new. "If it bleeds, it leads" and all that.
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Jan 4, 2024 22:30
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I don't know if it's "trolling" as much as "NYT reporters, editors, and readers are disproportionately well-off Northeasterners and therefore disproportionately concerned with what happens at Ivy League schools."
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Jan 4, 2024 22:39
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:That is pretty not great for retirement plan from being a public employee. i don't have the time to research too much at the moment, but everything i'm seeing at a glance makes it seem like calsavers and calpers are completely separate funds managed by different entities. calpers has a public board managing the fund, management of calsavers appears to be mostly handed off to state street with some oversight by the state treasury. if i had to guess the elevated admin fee is to ensure the promise that this wouldn't use taxpayer funds is kept, and overall i think it's better than the status quo, but seeing 80bps in the modern environment really set me on edge. that wouldn't fly in most mid-sized corporations, let alone a government plan like, my roth ira at vanguard, which is entirely equivalent in tax benefits and has more flexibility in funds, has no management fee since i chose e-delivery of documents. sure there's going to be some overhead for managing something where you coordinate with many small business owners across the state, but i can't believe the current fee accurately reflects the real costs Ither posted:$165/month is significant? compound interest can work miracles if it has enough time. $165 a month consistently invested in a 60/40 portfolio at the start of a career in 1992 would be worth nearly $310,000 today, which would allow someone to safely supplement their social security income with an extra $12,000 a year for at least 30 years https://www.portfoliovisualizer.com/backtest-portfolio?s=y&sl=3WcVaed2u4ptDeWQG6Z4PO
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Jan 4, 2024 22:42
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:The last holdout on reducing the price of insulin has given in. This is pretty bonkers. I'm T1D and last I checked some years ago, my insulin costs were like $1000 for a month supply, which my insurance would then lower to like a $100 copay. Quoting from the article: Sanofi cut the list price of Lantus by 78%, to $96 for the prefilled pens and $64 for the 10-milliliter vial, starting Jan. 1. It also reduced the list price of its short-acting Apidra insulin by 70%. Meanwhile, Novo Nordisk lowered the list prices of several of its insulin vials and prefilled pens by up to 75%, as of Jan. 1. The new list price for NovoLog is $72 per vial and $140 for the FlexPen. And Eli Lilly slashed the list prices of Humalog, its most commonly prescribed insulin, and of Humulin by 70% by the end of 2023. Humalog will now carry a list price of $66 per vial. If I mathed that out correctly, Lantus went from $436 to $96. Novolog from $288 to $72. Humalog from $220 to $66. (I use all three of these, depending on whatever way the insurance/supplier negotiation winds are blowing each year.) You know they're not losing money at the new prices, so the 70-80% of the price that they cut out was just pure profit. You can see why they fought this so hard. Absolutely insane. The new prices are actually approaching affordable even for the uninsured.
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Jan 4, 2024 23:20
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:A plagiarism accusation on your academic papers for someone who is a President and Lecturer at Harvard is different than one for the first lady (or even President). The expectation is that if you are teaching at Harvard, then you are an author of original scholarly work and uniquely intelligent. Harvard doesn't want their reputation to be "your kids will get an education from a fraud here" when their whole brand is "only the best of the best teach here." I agree with what you wrote, but she is still a tenured professor which makes basically any argument that she was asked to resign over only/mostly plagiarism pretty weak. Plagiarism is an even bigger deal for professors than the head administrator.
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Jan 4, 2024 23:30
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Kagrenak posted:I agree with what you wrote, but she is still a tenured professor which makes basically any argument that she was asked to resign over only/mostly plagiarism pretty weak. Plagiarism is an even bigger deal for professors than the head administrator. Well they should fire her from that too. BTW several big-name politicians in Europe had been forced to resign because their academic work was found to have been plagiarized. Same logic applies imo, you wouldn't want someone dishonest to be in charge of the government either, even if it's not an academic position.
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Jan 4, 2024 23:36
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