Nameless_Steve posted:

But the health ministry reports to Hamas and has repeatedly falsified data and reports before to suit Hamas propaganda. Especially after they were caught inflating the death toll of the Al-Ahli parking lot bombing by 450+, the media should have stopped reporting their numbers at all instead of merely including that disclaimer.

Neurolimal posted:

"Houthi is not Yemen" and "Hezbullah are not Lebanon" aren't talking points to avoid collective punishment, they're attempts to delegitimize organizations with majority support within their countries. It's essentially being a sore loser, efforts to dislodge both failed so we'll just point to the saudi-led rump statepatch and pout.

Darth Walrus posted:

https://x.com/haningdr/status/1742657664683855981?s=46&t=ARI_L-v32Oind1-d9B3a3Q

Israel definitely seeing exactly how much poo poo Hezbollah is prepared to take.

Pentecoastal Elites posted:

This is an outrageous mischaracterization. The Gaza Health Ministry puts the death count at 471, and as mentioned have provided a list of the people they assert were killed. The US' own estimation ranges from 100-300 people killed.

quote:

This sort of uncritical repetition of israeli propaganda positions reifies the lie that Palestinians are intentionally inflating casualty numbers in order to excuse israel's ongoing campaign of genocide.

Nameless_Steve posted:

They initially reported 500 dead, within minutes, suspiciously. The actual number is most likely 50. (The US estimate advises that it skews closer to 100 than 300).

Nevertheless, since the video evidence and most investigations have shown it was a Gaza rocket, that's 500 deaths too many being blamed on Israel.

Hamas' numbers lack internal consistency, with multiple days where only the women and children count increased, when even random bombing should logically have killed at least 25% adult men.
https://twitter.com/halteconnerie/status/1734200498725519516
The UN agencies basically rely on Hamas data, minus whatever Israel can disprove. (For instance, this infamous story about a sick baby asphyxiating on tire smoke being falsely blamed on "Israeli tear gas"
The UN is not independently counting heads at the morgue or anything, so it's not so persuasive that its numbers have mostly lined up. The fact that so many individual claims can be disproven should cast doubt on the entire number and the reputation of the organization.

And that organization's claims are primarily responsible for the entire "genocide" accusation.

Nameless_Steve posted:

The actual number is most likely 50.

Nebalebadingdong posted:

where are you getting this number from

Nebalebadingdong posted:

where are you getting this number from

Nameless_Steve posted:

And that organization's claims are primarily responsible for the entire "genocide" accusation.

Nameless_Steve posted:

Nevertheless, since the video evidence and most investigations have shown it was a Gaza rocket, that's 500 deaths too many being blamed on Israel.

Pentecoastal Elites posted:

So, just to be clear, you assert (seemingly in contravention of everyone else but perhaps an israeli figure I'm unaware of) the explosion at Al-Ahli only killed around fifty people?

quote:

And moreover that similarly the deaths reported by Palestinians from Gaza are so dramatically inflated that what israel is doing does not constitute a genocide?

quote:

And to support your point you're posting a tweet from an account called "Death to Idiots" with an AI-generated "gently caress HAMAS" avatar? Are you sure about this?

Nameless_Steve posted:

Wall Street Journal, AFP

Is the claim it's a genocide a claim based on numbers? Where is a line drawn, numerically, between genocide and not-genocide?

Uh, sure. You make it sound like "gently caress hamas" is cuckoo, but it's actually pretty normal.
Here's a different thread that analyzes the same numbers and finds the same inconsistencies:
https://twitter.com/Aizenberg55/status/1731753062622982386

Pentecoastal Elites posted:

Frankly, it's insane to me that this sort of thing is permitted on these forums, let alone D&D. No one would tolerate someone playing these bean counting games with the deaths at Buchenwald or Auschwitz on behalf of the nazi government, and correctly so. Why do we allow this sort of genocide denial in this case?

Nameless_Steve posted:

Wall Street Journal, AFP

Is the claim it's a genocide a claim based on numbers? Where is a line drawn, numerically, between genocide and not-genocide?

Uh, sure. You make it sound like "gently caress hamas" is cuckoo, but it's actually pretty normal.
Here's a different thread that analyzes the same numbers and finds the same inconsistencies:
https://twitter.com/Aizenberg55/status/1731753062622982386

Nameless_Steve posted:

Is the claim it's a genocide a claim based on numbers?

Atahualpa posted:

No. The South African case, for example, cites not just the killing of more than 20,000 and injuring of more than 55,000 Palestinians, but also:

• The "background of apartheid, expulsion, ethnic cleansing, occupation, discrimination, and the ongoing denial of the right of the Palestinian people to self-determination" even prior to October 7.
  
• The indiscriminate nature of Israel's bombing campaign.
  
• Attacks on hospitals and residential areas, including water systems, agricultural lands, mills, mosques/churches, universities, and more than 100 heritage sites.
  
• Mass forced displacement of Palestinians.
  
• Depriving Palestinians of access to adequate food and water.
  
• Imposing measures to prevent Palestinian births.
  
• Statements of genocidal intent from Israeli officials.

Nameless_Steve posted:

The UN is not independently counting heads at the morgue or anything, so it's not so persuasive that its numbers have mostly lined up. The fact that so many individual claims can be disproven should cast doubt on the entire number and the reputation of the organization.

And that organization's claims are primarily responsible for the entire "genocide" accusation.

Pentecoastal Elites posted:

Please point me to where the WSJ says that only 50 people died.

quote:

The AFP repeats the Times of Israel which is repeating an estimate told to a reporter by an unnamed "European intelligence source". How would a mysterious European intelligence agent (??) have accurate casualty numbers on something that happened in the heart of Gaza -- something asserted as an accident, no less.

quote:

I know I shouldn't have wasted the time but I read the twitter thread. I don't know if you could find a less reliable source if you tried. Alex Jones, maybe? The Time Cube guy? It's a nutjob israeli propaganda mouthpiece who posts the flimsiest "well acktually"s I've ever seen. It seems like his job, by his own admission, is to post these hairbrained rebuttals on behalf of the israeli propaganda apparatus. Is this the best you're able to come up with? Two random twitter propaganda shills? That's not really a convincing case, even with the guy's ~debunking~ some UN infographics apparently on the basis that they weren't 100% correct on the day-of release from a population being actively slaughtered by the army of an apartheid terror state.

quote:

Frankly, it's insane to me that this sort of thing is permitted on these forums, let alone D&D. No one would tolerate someone playing these bean counting games with the deaths at Buchenwald or Auschwitz on behalf of the nazi government, and correctly so. Why do we allow this sort of genocide denial in this case?

Atahualpa posted:

No. The South African case, for example, cites not just the killing of more than 20,000 and injuring of more than 55,000 Palestinians, but also:

• The "background of apartheid, expulsion, ethnic cleansing, occupation, discrimination, and the ongoing denial of the right of the Palestinian people to self-determination" even prior to October 7.
  
• The indiscriminate nature of Israel's bombing campaign.
  
• Attacks on hospitals and residential areas, including water systems, agricultural lands, mills, mosques/churches, universities, and more than 100 heritage sites.
  
• Mass forced displacement of Palestinians.
  
• Depriving Palestinians of access to adequate food and water.
  
• Imposing measures to prevent Palestinian births.
  
• Statements of genocidal intent from Israeli officials.

Nameless_Steve posted:

"Denial of self-determination" is not genocide, nor are the various security measures taken against a hostile, nazified populace like the Palestinian Nationalists. October 7 was an instance of the dangers of lax security, and showed us exactly who Israel was keeping out and why.

Nameless_Steve posted:

2, 3 and 4 don't stand up when it's now well-documented how hardcore militarized the mosques, schools and hospitals all were in Hamas Gaza. 5 is demonstrably untrue when so many aid trucks are pouring in every day. 6 is a myth. 7 is immaterial and pales in comparison to their counterparts.

Nameless_Steve posted:

As for 1:
"Denial of self-determination" is not genocide, nor are the various security measures taken against a hostile, nazified populace like the Palestinian Nationalists. October 7 was an instance of the dangers of lax security, and showed us exactly who Israel was keeping out and why.

Nameless_Steve posted:

Mischievous Mink posted:

What makes Palestine's population nazified? That's quite a claim when Israel itself is run by a nazi apologist holocaust denier, certainly Israel has no qualms about allowing nazis in the country.

Nameless_Steve posted:

2, 3 and 4 don't stand up when it's now well-documented how hardcore militarized the mosques, schools and hospitals all were in Hamas Gaza. 5 is demonstrably untrue when so many aid trucks are pouring in every day. 6 is a myth. 7 is immaterial and pales in comparison to their counterparts.

quote:

Between 8 December and 7 February, the entire population in the Gaza Strip (about 2.2 million people) is classified in IPC Phase 3 or above (Crisis or worse). This is the highest share of people facing high levels of acute food insecurity that the IPC initiative has ever classified for any given area or country. Among these, about 50% of the population (1.17 million people) is in Emergency (IPC Phase 4) and at least one in four households (more than half a million people) is facing catastrophic conditions (IPC Phase 5, Catastrophe). These are characterized by households experiencing an extreme lack of food, starvation, and exhaustion of coping capacities. Even though the levels of acute malnutrition and non-trauma related mortality might not have yet crossed famine thresholds, these are typically the outcomes of prolonged and extreme food consumption gaps. The increased nutritional vulnerability of children, pregnant and breastfeeding women and the elderly is a particular source of concern.

The latest data shows that virtually all households are skipping meals every day. In four out of five households in the northern governorates and half the displaced households in the southern governorates, people go entire days and nights without eating. Many adults go hungry so children can eat. Humanitarian food assistance, which was supporting over two thirds of the population before the escalation of the hostilities, is now extremely inadequate to cover the rapidly growing life-threatening needs. The quantities of commodities, including food, allowed to enter the Gaza Strip are largely insufficient; and on most days, these are only reaching a portion of the population of Rafah Governorate. In the northern governorates, as well as Deir Al Balah and parts of Khan Younis, active fighting or partial besiegement are preventing significant portions of the population from accessing humanitarian assistance and basic services (food, water, sanitation, healthcare).

Madkal posted:

I don't think anyone in Israel is denying the Holocaust but if you want them to be every kind of evil please go on. Netanyahu has come up with claims about the mufti having a role in the Holocaust which is highly disputed but I think he still believes the Holocaust happened and the last time the let a literal Nazi into the country was to execute him unless you think Israel was secretly pretty chill with Eichmann too.

Madkal posted:

I don't think anyone in Israel is denying the Holocaust but if you want them to be every kind of evil please go on. Netanyahu has come up with claims about the mufti having a role in the Holocaust which is highly disputed but I think he still believes the Holocaust happened and the last time the let a literal Nazi into the country was to execute him unless you think Israel was secretly pretty chill with Eichmann too.

Madkal posted:

...the last time the let a literal Nazi into the country was to execute him unless you think Israel was secretly pretty chill with Eichmann too.

khanna.house.gov - Tue, 27 Mar 2018 posted:

A little-noticed provision in the 2,232-page government spending bill passed last week bans U.S. arms from going to a controversial ultranationalist militia in Ukraine that has openly accepted neo-Nazis into its ranks.

House-passed spending bills for the past three years have included a ban on U.S. aid to Ukraine from going to the Azov Battalion, but the provision was stripped out before final passage each year.

This year, though, the $1.3 trillion omnibus spending bill signed into law last week stipulates that "none of the funds made available by this act may be used to provide arms, training or other assistance to the Azov Battalion."

"White supremacy and neo-Nazism are unacceptable and have no place in our world," Rep. Ro Khanna (D-Calif.), an outspoken critic of providing lethal aid to Ukraine, said in a statement to The Hill on Tuesday. "I am very pleased that the recently passed omnibus prevents the U.S. from providing arms and training assistance to the neo-Nazi Azov Battalion fighting in Ukraine."

The United States has been aiding and training Ukrainian forces in their fight against Russian-backed separatists since 2014, and recently expanded that aid to include arms. The omnibus includes about $620.7 million in aid for Ukraine, including $420.7 million in State Department and foreign operations funds and $200 million in Pentagon funds.

The Azov Battalion was founded in 2014, and its first commander was Andriy Biletsky, who previously headed the neo-Nazi group Patriot of Ukraine. Several members of the militia, which has been integrated into the Ukrainian National Guard, are self-avowed neo-Nazis.

But a spokesman for the group has defended it, telling USA Today in 2015 that only 10 to 20 percent of recruits are neo-Nazis and that those people do not represent the official ideology of Azov.

It's unclear how much, if anything, from the United States has gone to Azov in the past.

"The State Department should pressure Kiev to dissociate itself with this group and investigate whether any of our weapons or training have already been provided to them," Khanna said in his statement. "This is just one of many reasons why lawmakers should be concerned about channeling huge amounts of weapons into this volatile conflict zone."

Last year, online posts by the militia's news service showed members testing U.S.-made grenade launchers at a firing range. The posts have since been deleted, and the Ukrainian National Guard insisted in a January statement that the grenade launchers were not in Azov's possession.

U.S. officials have said vetting required under the so-called Leahy Law already prevents the United States from aiding Azov. The Leahy Law bans U.S. aid from going to groups when the "secretary of State has credible information that such unit has committed a gross violation of human rights."

But proponents of a ban specific to Azov say the Leahy Law did not preclude it from getting aid, since the secretary of State has never made such a determination about the group.

Nameless_Steve posted:

I'm pointing out that the Palestinian "genocide" claims are based on unreliable numbers from a single unreliable source, the complete opposite situation.

Mischievous Mink posted:

Israel itself is run by a nazi apologist holocaust denier

DeadlyMuffin posted:

This claim is only true if the genocide claim is based on the deaths at the hospital, but it isn't. As Atahualpa pointed out it's based on far more than that, but you seem to be ignoring that.

It's not at all contradictory for Israel to be committing genocide and for the deaths at the hospital to be exaggerated (I'm not saying they are).

Wait... what? I knew he was a piece of poo poo but this is a wild claim.

www.france24.com - Wed, 21 Oct 2015 posted:

Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has come under fire after suggesting that a World War II-era Palestinian leader convinced the Nazis to adopt their Final Solution to exterminate European Jews.

Netanyahu told a group of Jewish leaders on Tuesday that the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, Nazi sympathizer Haj Amin al-Husseini, convinced Hitler to destroy the Jews.

"Hitler didn't want to exterminate the Jews at the time, he wanted to expel the Jews," Netanyahu said. When Hitler asked al-Husseini what to do, Netanyahu said he replied: "Burn them."

Opposition leaders have slammed Netanyahu's comments as a gross distortion of history and an incitement to hatred against Palestinians, coming in the midst of a wave of violent unrest and Israeli-Palestinian tensions.

"This is a dangerous historical distortion and I demand Netanyahu correct it immediately as it minimizes the Holocaust, Nazism and… Hitler's part in our people's terrible disaster," Zionist Union leader Isaac Herzog wrote on his Facebook page.

"This is a great shame, a prime minister of the Jewish state at the service of Holocaust-deniers – this is a first," said Itzik Shmuli, an MP for Herzog’s opposition party. "This isn't the first time Netanyahu distorts historical facts, but a lie of this magnitude is the first."

Arab Joint List leader Ayman Odeh said Netanyahu "is rewriting history in order to incite against the Palestinian people”. He added: “The victims of the Nazi monster, among them millions of Jews, have become cheap propaganda in the service of peace rejectionism.”

Israeli daily Haaretz reports that Netanyahu made a similar claim in 2012, when he told Israeli lawmakers that the former Grand Mufti was “one of the leading architects” of the Holocaust, in which more than five million Jews were murdered.

Fringe historians have made the suggestion in the past, but it has been rejected by established scholars.

"To say that the Mufti was the first to mention to Hitler the idea to kill or burn the Jews is not correct," Dina Porat, a professor at Tel Aviv University and the chief historian of Yad Vashem, Israel's Holocaust museum, told Israel Radio on Wednesday.

"The idea to rid the world of the Jews was a central theme in Hitler's ideology a long, long time before he met the mufti," she said.

Porat and others pointed out that the murder of the Jews began in June 1941. Even if the Mufti wanted the Final Solution to be expanded, he was not the one who came up with the idea.

"For somebody who knows something about history and grew up in the house of historian Professor Benzion Netanyahu, he should know well," Porat said of the prime minister. "But in my humble opinion, to say that the mufti gave Hitler the idea is wrong."

(FRANCE 24 with AP, REUTERS)

Madkal posted:

I don't think anyone in Israel is denying the Holocaust but if you want them to be every kind of evil please go on. Netanyahu has come up with claims about the mufti having a role in the Holocaust which is highly disputed but I think he still believes the Holocaust happened and the last time the let a literal Nazi into the country was to execute him unless you think Israel was secretly pretty chill with Eichmann too.

Fidelitious posted:

I also don't give a gently caress if the number of deaths is inflated or not. That has little to do with it being a genocide. Israel has factually done plenty of awful things with numerous statements in support of genocide by their leadership. Quibbling over specific number of civilians killed by them as if the number was low enough it would change anything is pure distraction done by genocide apologists.

It's good to have accurate numbers for certain purposes but it is completely irrelevant to the larger picture here.

Groovelord Neato posted:

Comparing 10/7 to the Holocaust which a number of people have is at best Holocaust minimization which is on the road to denial. Holocaust denial despite the name isn't just "the Holocaust did not occur at all" there are gradations.