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If ever you consider comparing something to the Holocaust, don't.
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Jan 5, 2024 19:05
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Pentecoastal Elites posted:that is literally a comparison to the Holocaust made infinitely worse by the fact that 10/7 had nothing to do with anyone's Jewishness but because the apartheid terror state of israel has been keeping a captive population of untermenschen in open-air concentration camps. It is obscene Holocaust minimization. Again a 1,000 plus Jews were killed which is the most Jews killed in a single day since the Holocaust. You can argue that the people who did the killing didn't kill the Israelis because they were Jewish and it was just a mild inconvenience that most of them just happened to be Jewish but that statement is still true. Denying it as true is just trying to justify the murder of 1,000 plus people who just happened to be Jewish.
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Jan 5, 2024 19:07
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Pentecoastal Elites posted:that is literally a comparison to the Holocaust made infinitely worse by the fact that 10/7 had nothing to do with anyone's Jewishness but because the apartheid terror state of israel has been keeping a captive population of untermenschen in open-air concentration camps. It is obscene Holocaust minimization. Right and it then led to Douglas Murray and others claiming Hamas was worse because they enjoyed it while the perpetrators of the Holocaust were ashamed which is straight up Holocaust denial. Madkal posted:Again a 1,000 plus Jews were killed which is the most Jews killed in a single day since the Holocaust. You can argue that the people who did the killing didn't kill the Israelis because they were Jewish and it was just a mild inconvenience that most of them just happened to be Jewish but that statement is still true. Denying it as true is just trying to justify the murder of 1,000 plus people who just happened to be Jewish. You only get to count the ~700 who were civilians but there's no reason to bring the Holocaust into it other than to bring it to mind. It's not justifying the murder of civilians to point out that the state subjugating the Palestinians and created the scenario in which 10/7 occurred is an ethnocracy. edit: also the Shoah Foundation - which before 10/7 had only collected testimonies from the Holocaust and other genocides - has taped survivor testimonies from 10/7. Do you want to guess what happens when you search their site for Gaza or the West Bank or Palestine? Groovelord Neato fucked around with this message at 19:18 on Jan 5, 2024 |
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Jan 5, 2024 19:07
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Madkal posted:Again a 1,000 plus Jews were killed which is the most Jews killed in a single day since the Holocaust. You can argue that the people who did the killing didn't kill the Israelis because they were Jewish and it was just a mild inconvenience that most of them just happened to be Jewish but that statement is still true. Denying it as true is just trying to justify the murder of 1,000 plus people who just happened to be Jewish. To invoke the Holocaust is to attempt to paint 10/7 as being some sort of attempt at the extermination of Jewish people. This has nothing to do with Jewishness and everything to do with the apartheid terror state of israel and their decades-long campaign of settler colonial expansion and ethnic cleansing. This framing is being used to justify the ongoing genocide of Palestinians by the israel. Again your invocation of the Holocaust here is disgusting Holocaust minimization in service of an ongoing genocide. I take it you are Jewish or maybe even israeli and so you figure you can't be doing this but as others have pointed out, neither of these things stops you from engaging in this inexcusable rhetoric.
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Jan 5, 2024 19:16
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I'm saying this as a Jewish person now. Seeing a bunch of Pentecoastal Elites posted:that is literally a comparison to the Holocaust made infinitely worse by the fact that 10/7 had nothing to do with anyone's Jewishness but because the apartheid terror state of israel has been keeping a captive population of untermenschen in open-air concentration camps. It is obscene Holocaust minimization. which is a way to minimize the mass murder of Jews by saying it is nothing like the Holocaust because of course the Holocaust is bad but this mass murder was completely justified. In regards to this cat botherer posted:If ever you consider comparing something to the Holocaust, don't. would that include having people in this thread compare Israel and using Nazi terminology to describe Israeli policy as well?
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Jan 5, 2024 19:20
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Madkal posted:which is a way to minimize the mass murder of Jews by saying it is nothing like the Holocaust because of course the Holocaust is bad but this mass murder was completely justified. If I said Israel's bombardment of Gaza in 2014 which killed 2000 civilians was not like the Holocaust I wouldn't think anyone would say I was justifying that slaughter. 9/11 was probably the day the most Jewish people were murdered since the Holocaust but nobody said it that way.
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Jan 5, 2024 19:28
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Was the Warsaw Uprising an unjustifiable mass murder of Germans for their Germanness? Nazi ideology comparison to the ideology that motivates the Zionist entity is an apt one: they're both born from a malformed and tragically failed utopian project, they both claim legitimacy from mythology, they're both obsessed with blood and soil, they both regard untrammeled expansion and the wanton murder of subhuman Others as perfectly reasonable means to state ends, they both revel in depraved cruelty to those subhuman others, and they're both responsible for genocides because of it. Their only real meaningful difference is that the position of the Jewish people is inverted in the racial hierarchy of the latter.
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Jan 5, 2024 19:32
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Madkal posted:I'm saying this as a Jewish person now. Seeing a bunch of 10/7 would not have happened if not for the decades of crimes against the Palestinian people by Israel.
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Jan 5, 2024 19:33
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Groovelord Neato posted:9/11 was probably the day the most Jewish people were murdered since the Holocaust but nobody said it that way. the Argentinian dirty war is also probably up there although i don't suppose there's a day-by-day breakdown
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Jan 5, 2024 19:34
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Pentecoastal Elites posted:Was the Warsaw Uprising an unjustifiable mass murder of Germans for their Germanness? One was asking for a Jewish homeland because every else in the world Jews were being persecuted. Why not just say all forms of self-detemination is inherently a form of Nazism then, and especially those seeking to a reprieve from being murdered for existing anywhere in the world.
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Jan 5, 2024 19:36
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Madkal posted:One was asking for a Jewish homeland because every else in the world Jews were being persecuted. Why not just say all forms of self-detemination is inherently a form of Nazism then, and especially those seeking to a reprieve from being murdered for existing anywhere in the world.
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Jan 5, 2024 19:39
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Madkal posted:One was asking for a Jewish homeland because every else in the world Jews were being persecuted. Why not just say all forms of self-detemination is inherently a form of Nazism then, and especially those seeking to a reprieve from being murdered for existing anywhere in the world. The basic problem with this line of argument is that other, non-Jewish people were and are living there, and were not granted those same rights - even, at present, the right to life. Ethnostates are not the same as regional self-determination, and are absolutely a Nazi-adjacent concept.
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Jan 5, 2024 19:40
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Madkal posted:One was asking for a Jewish homeland because every else in the world Jews were being persecuted. Why not just say all forms of self-detemination is inherently a form of Nazism then, and especially those seeking to a reprieve from being murdered for existing anywhere in the world. All people, including the Jews, deserve to live in safety and to be free from persecution. Without a doubt and anyone who thinks otherwise is a monster. No one, not even the Jews, deserves an apartheid settler-colonial ethnostate built on the land and bodies of a people they continue to oppress and persecute. "Never again" means never again for anyone.
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Jan 5, 2024 19:42
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Madkal posted:I'm saying this as a Jewish person now. Seeing a bunch of Something like 10-20x the number of people have been killed in Gaza since that day. So by this comparison, either Israel's response is 10-20x closer to the Holocaust in terms of evilness, or Muslims matter less than Jews. It's the same reason people roll their eyes when 9/11 gets talked about. Like, yeah, that was a really bad day, but you lose the ability to claim the victim about it when your response is to start a forever war that causes orders of magnitude more death and destruction. Don't ask me to feel bad for you when you are actively being the bad guy.
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Jan 5, 2024 19:43
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Madkal posted:One was asking for a Jewish homeland because every else in the world Jews were being persecuted. Why not just say all forms of self-detemination is inherently a form of Nazism then, and especially those seeking to a reprieve from being murdered for existing anywhere in the world. by that logic, 10/7 was entirely justified because Hamas is just seeking to establish a homeland where Palestinians won't be persecuted it is not a good line of reasoning unless you believe military might is what makes someone human
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Jan 5, 2024 19:46
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Pentecoastal Elites posted:To invoke the Holocaust is to attempt to paint 10/7 as being some sort of attempt at the extermination of Jewish people. This has nothing to do with Jewishness and everything to do with the apartheid terror state of israel and their decades-long campaign of settler colonial expansion and ethnic cleansing. This framing is being used to justify the ongoing genocide of Palestinians by the israel. Again your invocation of the Holocaust here is disgusting Holocaust minimization in service of an ongoing genocide. I take it you are Jewish or maybe even israeli and so you figure you can't be doing this but as others have pointed out, neither of these things stops you from engaging in this inexcusable rhetoric.
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Jan 5, 2024 20:01
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Madkal posted:I'm saying this as a Jewish person now. Seeing a bunch of The problem with comparing 10/7 to Pogroms against Jewish people in the 19th and 20th centuries is that the power dynamics are completely reversed. Invoking those memories in a cynical attempt to justify the ethnic cleansing campaign that is currently ongoing is what is rubbing a lot of people the wrong way.
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Jan 5, 2024 20:02
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Irony Be My Shield posted:The problem is that Hamas' actions do not at all line up with this interpretation. If this was about fighting the apartheid state of Israel then they could've limited their attack to soldiers and perhaps relevant political targets. Instead they went door to door killing everyone they could find at a famously leftwing commune, and rounded up and massacred as many young people as they could get their hands on at a music festival. It's difficult to explain that kind of systematic cold-blooded murder of obviously innocent targets without invoking the genocidal antisemitism that underpinned the founding of Hamas. And again, 10/7 would not have happened were it not for the decades long campaign of genocide by the Israelis against the Palestinians.
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Jan 5, 2024 20:04
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Three times as many Jewish people are believed to have died during the Argentine 'Dirty War' as did on 10/7. Israel supported Argentina because it was convenient to do so, and sold them arms. Any association by Israel, or its Zionist mouthpieces, of 10/7 and the Holocaust based on the number of Jews who died is as cynically dishonest as it is morally vile.
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Jan 5, 2024 20:06
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Madkal posted:Why not just say all forms of self-detemination is inherently a form of Nazism then, and especially those seeking to a reprieve from being murdered for existing anywhere in the world. Honestly I don't understand the value of "self-determination" on an ethnic/national level. Ethnicities and nations don't have "selves" capable of making decisions - they're indiscrete clusters of people whose shared background can't guarantee that they share a political vision for the future. The idea that ethnicities/nationalities do or should have "selves" which "determine" the future of the people with that identity - it's not Nazism, but it does strike me as intrinsically right-wing, because it's a profound reification of what's basically tribal belongingness. I think individual people should have self-determination - the power to determine for themselves, within what's practically possible, where and how they'll live and work. If they have that, I don't know what "self determination" on the ethnic level contributes. On a totally separate thought, I think "most Jews killed in one day since the Holocaust" is a meaningful way to c capture the incredible impact that 10/7 immediately had, and will continue to have, on Jewish culture in Israel and around the world. Analogizing 10/7 to the Holocaust, as Jews around the world and particularly in Israel have been doing, is obviously ugly and lacks any sense of scale, but I don't think that's what the phrase itself does - it's explicitly a comparison to post-Holocaust Jewish life, "since the Holocaust". It underlines that today's Jews have basically no frame of reference for this level of humiliating catastrophe within their lifetimes, but at the same time are the inheritors of a huge body of historical memory that affirms mass slaughter of helpless Jews as a nearly-inevitable existential threat to them and everyone they love. Put more bluntly, it scared the loving hell out of everyone, and this is a major contributor to the genocidal rhetoric and actual genocide that we're seeing right now. EDIT: Groovelord Neato posted:This was already gone over in the posts above yours - they were murdered for being Israelis or residing in Israel. It was not a genocidal attack and can still be horrific absent that incorrect assessment. "Murdered for being Israelis" is a genocidal intent, it's killing someone for having the wrong national identity (in general or relative to the land the murderer aims to seize). Tens of thousands of people have been murdered in Gaza for being Palestinian or residing in Gaza, that's what makes it a genocide. Civilized Fishbot fucked around with this message at 20:32 on Jan 5, 2024 |
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Jan 5, 2024 20:15
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Irony Be My Shield posted:The problem is that Hamas' actions do not at all line up with this interpretation. If this was about fighting the apartheid state of Israel then they could've limited their attack to soldiers and perhaps relevant political targets. Instead they went door to door killing everyone they could find at a famously leftwing commune, and rounded up and massacred as many young people as they could get their hands on at a music festival. It's difficult to explain that kind of systematic cold-blooded murder of obviously innocent targets without invoking the genocidal antisemitism that underpinned the founding of Hamas. This was already gone over in the posts above yours - they were murdered for being Israelis or residing in Israel. It was not a genocidal attack and can still be horrific absent that incorrect assessment.
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Jan 5, 2024 20:16
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Madkal posted:One was asking for a Jewish homeland because every else in the world Jews were being persecuted. Why not just say all forms of self-detemination is inherently a form of Nazism then, and especially those seeking to a reprieve from being murdered for existing anywhere in the world. Hi. Also a Jew here. I get it. I get the fears you're experiencing and the ideals you were probably raised with; I was raised with them too. I get that you want to feel safe from a world that has treated us cruelly since the beginning of our story. But I desperately want people like you to internalize the fact that feeling unsafe is not the same thing as being unsafe. I live comfortably in a large American city, and while there is the small chance that a racist terrorist attack will shoot up my synagogue, I am not at any systemic risk of being beaten by the cops, or thrown out of a restaurant, or denied education/employment because of my ethnic identity. These are pressures that Jews have faced in the past, but most Western countries have taken extensive steps to treat Jews the same way they treat white people in every material way, and it would be blatantly dishonest of me to act like I face the same degree of structural oppression that Black Americans do. And accordingly I want you to understand that inflicting the same atrocities we've experienced on other people will not solve anything. It is horrific that a large group of Jews were murdered on 10/7, but that's a world apart from the systemic, calculated massacre that has now claimed around 30,000 Palestinian lives. It's tragic that the Jewish people were exiled from Israel thousands of years ago, but since then, generations of people have been born, lived, and died in that region; by displacing and occupying them, we have achieved a vague, temporary "security" on the backs of inducing the exact same trauma we experienced on the Palestinians. This is unjust and unjustifiable, not to mention self-defeating. Pretending that this isn't happening, or that they somehow deserves it, means turning your back on reality. So yeah, it is inappropriate to compare 10/7 to the Holocaust. You want to compare something to the Holocaust? Start here, and don't look away: https://twitter.com/NourNaim88/status/1743267428799230342?t=eXy6qIIU9e1nyGuxkfSlCg&s=19
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Jan 5, 2024 20:27
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Madkal posted:One was asking for a Jewish homeland because every else in the world Jews were being persecuted. Why not just say all forms of self-detemination is inherently a form of Nazism then, and especially those seeking to a reprieve from being murdered for existing anywhere in the world. In addition to the other great posters that have already replied to this, I just want to add that there are actual fascists that support this line of reasoning for two reasons. 1) If they get an ethnostate, we should be allowed one too. 2) When we have our ethnostate, we can deport all our Jewish population to that other ethnostate. Self determination is great and all, but there are and were always other people already living there. Who is suppose to watch out for the captive population being ruthlessly colonized and pushed out of their homes? What about their self determination?
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Jan 5, 2024 20:31
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Pentecoastal Elites posted:Was the Warsaw Uprising an unjustifiable mass murder of Germans for their Germanness? I don't think the Polish resistance army killed very many unarmed non-Jewish civilians during the Warsaw Uprising. Perhaps you're confusing it with the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising? Though that didn't kill any unarmed non-Jewish civilians either. Personally, I think when it comes to judging the morality of killing people, whether the victims were unarmed civilians or not matters more than how nasty a narrative you can weave about the victims. I'm glad you're finding the opportunity to give your thesaurus a real workout in the process of demonizing unarmed civilians who were massacred by armed militants, but comparing Oct 7th to either Warsaw Uprising is wildly off-base. Of course, the Jews who launched the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising were well aware that the German military held an overwhelming advantage and that they were certainly going to their deaths. Just as Hamas was aware that going after the Israeli military (instead of civilians) would have ended similarly poorly. The Jewish ghetto residents didn't have the option to go after German civilians, so we don't know whether they would have chosen said option if it had existed, but that's just another reason why this isn't a very good comparison.
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Jan 5, 2024 20:35
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Main Paineframe posted:I don't think the Polish resistance army killed very many unarmed non-Jewish civilians during the Warsaw Uprising. Perhaps you're confusing it with the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising? Though that didn't kill any unarmed non-Jewish civilians either. We're 90 days into a campaign of unbridled genocide that shows no signs of slowing down so, I'm sorry but I really don't care about trying to tally how many finger-wags Hamas deserves per raver princess mercilessly slaughtered or whatever the gently caress. This is the whole deal with living in an apartheid state, this is the wager you make. Yeah you get stolen territory and stolen property and you can have your fun rave parties next door to the concentration camps, but sometimes the people you've trapped in the ghetto might breach the walls. If you don't like this you should probably take a look at the apartheid terror state that institutes this apartheid system and generates the conditions for Hamas and groups like Hamas to exist. This is another worthless deflection away from the literal, actual, ongoing genocide by the depraved zionist entity. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jan 5, 2024 20:49
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Irony Be My Shield posted:Instead they went door to door killing everyone they could find at a famously leftwing commune, and rounded up and massacred as many young people as they could get their hands on at a music festival. This extremely lurid narrative (that doesn't even mention the IDF's role in any civilian deaths) is one created and pushed entirely by a country executing a genocide. I'm not buying anything that comes out of israel, a state that has constantly pushed lies to excuse their genocidal campaign. I'll believe any of this after an independent investigation. If israel continues to prevent that and continues to destroy the evidence I'm forced to withhold all judgment on what Hamas did or didn't do. Did Hamas kill civilians? Was it all IDF crossfire? I have no idea, but I will believe anyone and anything else before I believe the israeli propaganda apparatus.
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Jan 5, 2024 21:04
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"Being a citizen of a villainous state means you deserve whatever war crimes come your way" is maybe the most common justification I see for war crimes. The vast majority of crimes and civilian-murder committed by the US in World War Two - the atomic bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, the firebombing of Dresden, sporadic murder of Italian civilians - was against people whose hands were filthied by citizenship in a fascist state, active contribution to the fascist state's war economy, passive or active engagement in the fascist ideology, etc. They were still civilians who did not deserve to be murdered. Very few people have the integrity of Sophie Scholl, or even Israeli anti-war protesters, where they're willing to take a stand even if it means state repression or public menacing. Most respond to the villainy of their state by acquiescing, if not enthusiastically cheering it on. If we decide that means their violent deaths are no big deal, then that's an attitude which recognizes the intrinsic right-to-live of a slim minority of humans and expresses restrained contempt for the rest. A really ugly way to see people. It's the exact line of thought being used to build support for genocide in Gaza - "if they didn't want to be killed, they shouldn't've elected Hamas!" Civilized Fishbot fucked around with this message at 21:14 on Jan 5, 2024 |
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Jan 5, 2024 21:05
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youcallthatatwist posted:https://twitter.com/NourNaim88/status/1743267428799230342?t=eXy6qIIU9e1nyGuxkfSlCg&s=19 I can't find that article on Haaretz. Can anyone link it?
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Jan 5, 2024 21:10
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Civilized Fishbot posted:"Being a citizen of a villainous state means you deserve whatever war crimes come your way" is maybe the most common justification I see for war crimes. "deserving" is the problem word. its a distraction. i agree that, no, they definitely didn't deserve it. but the point is that these events are simply what happens under apartheid or whatever. if we are to avoid another Oct 7, then we must disable apartheid in israel, and any other response is a waste of time.
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Jan 5, 2024 21:15
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Madkal posted:One was asking for a Jewish homeland because every else in the world Jews were being persecuted. Why not just say all forms of self-detemination is inherently a form of Nazism then, and especially those seeking to a reprieve from being murdered for existing anywhere in the world. I think the comparison has more to do with modern zionist project being about expanding the borders of Israel at the expense of native population. While I think that nazi comparisons aren't necessarily the most apt, the Israeli colonial project in West Bank does have the same ideological bent to it as lebensraum (or manifest destiny in America) had. Expansion of your people and subjugation and removal of 'savage' native population. Like how on earth could you ever think that forcefully annexing parts of West Bank and continually sending more your people to live amongst the natives you think want to murder you so you can excuse further repression of those natives and steal more of their land could ever be a defensive measure? If you want jewish people to have "reprieve from being murdered for existing anywhere in the world", why would you create colonies amongst the people you see wanting to murder you? To characterize current zionist project as somehow defensive makes absolutely no sense. And I don't think even Israelis think so. Reading their justifications of settlements coming from settler movement and current government of Israel makes it pretty clear. It's about zionist version of lebensraum or manifest destiny. It's got nothing to do with self-defense, it's about reclaiming Judea and Samaria. You don't protect your civilian population by moving them in the midst of your enemies you think want to genocide you.
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Jan 5, 2024 21:18
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Civilized Fishbot posted:"Being a citizen of a villainous state means you deserve whatever war crimes come your way" is maybe the most common justification I see for war crimes. I didn't say anything about justification. These are not civilian casualties from two sovereign nations at war. This is the wager that a settler makes with an apartheid state. When you decide (and decide for your children) that you will live near the walls of the concentration camp, this is what can happen. It didn't need to happen, it doesn't need to happen, and all blame here ultimately lies with the apartheid state that has created these conditions and promoted this structure as the basis for Jewish safety. e: Paladinus posted:I can't find that article on Haaretz. Can anyone link it? looks like https://www.haaretz.co.il/news/politics/2023-12-18/ty-article/.premium/0000018c-7932-d98c-abef-ffb7fcd70000 but I can't be certain Pentecoastal Elites fucked around with this message at 21:21 on Jan 5, 2024 |
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Jan 5, 2024 21:18
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Paladinus posted:I can't find that article on Haaretz. Can anyone link it? https://www.haaretz.co.il/news/politics/2024-01-02/ty-article/.premium/0000018c-c6e1-d6c4-ab8d-e7f5fd670000 It's paywalled so I'll copy/paste the original Hebrew and people can translate as they like. quote:מספר העזתים הכלואים בישראל עלה בכ–150% בחודש; חיילים מתעללים בעצורים EDIT: Pentecoastal Elites posted:I didn't say anything about justification. You have, in fact, made sarcastic allusions to it being justified: Pentecoastal Elites posted:If your stance is that Palestinian violence against the Israelis that have brutally oppressed, tortured, maimed, murdered, raped, stolen from, debased, shamed, humiliated, mocked, and otherwise devastated them for generations is in any way inevitable, understandable, or -- heaven forfend -- justified I must disagree in the strongest possible terms And when you mock them as "how many finger-wags Hamas deserves per raver princess mercilessly slaughtered" you're linking the moral severity of their deaths to your own contempt for them. When, in the context of this discussion, you talk about how each of the victims made a decision or "wager' which led to their violent deaths, you're building a rationale for how they are responsible for those deaths, so it's not so bad, they're not really victims, it's just their decisions playing out predictably. The relationship that an average Israeli Jew has with their state is comparable to the relationship that the average Japanese, German, or Italian person had with theirs during WW2: shameful acquiescence to plain evil, if not enthusiastic complicity, because they sincerely buy into the ideology or because standing up to it would cost too much personally. In all these cases you can dismiss whatever happens to them as "I don't want to hear about it, they made their bed and now they can lie in it," but it implies that the moral standard for "would it matter if someone violently killed you" is one that the vast majority of human beings will fail to meet. So often since 10/7, and pretty frequently before 10/7, I have had to hear, and rebut, this exact logic in defense of the Israeli genocide campaign - "if the Palestinians want a state/equal rights/not to be slaughtered, they shouldn't elect/should overthrow their evil leaders. Otherwise it's only natural that they're punished - they made a deal with the devil!" It's different from the consequentialist logic of "yes it's horrible but we have to do it anyway to be safe," it's outright minimization of the horror by making the victims into not-really-victims. I really don't know what to call it except ugly in what it implies about ordinary people. Civilized Fishbot fucked around with this message at 00:18 on Jan 6, 2024 |
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Jan 5, 2024 21:20
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Civilized Fishbot posted:https://www.haaretz.co.il/news/politics/2024-01-02/ty-article/.premium/0000018c-c6e1-d6c4-ab8d-e7f5fd670000 Thanks! I didn't know there was a weird in Israel that allowed detaining 'illegal combatants' circumventing conventions that cover treatment of POWs. I imagine observers from international organisations should be present at such sites, but clearly Israel doesn't care about how this looks.
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Jan 5, 2024 21:32
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It's easy to give in to hate. I've said the exact same words about Russian soldiers deaths and while those deaths are justified the act of waving those deaths in your ideological opponents face to prove a point is not right. I know - soldiers vs civilians - I'm just saying it's really easy to give in to hate when the facts on the ground are that hate is strictly counterproductive.
Crosswell fucked around with this message at 22:29 on Jan 5, 2024 |
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Jan 5, 2024 22:26
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Madkal posted:One was asking for a Jewish homeland because every else in the world Jews were being persecuted. Why not just say all forms of self-detemination is inherently a form of Nazism then, and especially those seeking to a reprieve from being murdered for existing anywhere in the world. All forms of ethno-nationalist self-determination? Yes.
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Jan 5, 2024 22:37
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I swore off posting in D&D but just wanted to pop in for a moment and remind any confused people that Nameless_Steve and Nameless Pete are two different, completely unaffiliated posters. Thank you.
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Jan 5, 2024 22:42
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Fidelitious posted:I also don't give a gently caress if the number of deaths is inflated or not. That has little to do with it being a genocide. Israel has factually done plenty of awful things with numerous statements in support of genocide by their leadership. Quibbling over specific number of civilians killed by them as if the number was low enough it would change anything is pure distraction done by genocide apologists. This also applies to the Hamas attacks on civilians on 10/7.
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Jan 5, 2024 23:08
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I think it's valid to point out that a lot of Jews died on Oct 7, the issue is simply that the case for them being killed for being Jews, being systematically hunted for being Jews, or were massacred to a greater extent than any other time since the Holocaust is all suspect. The 9/11 comparison is apt; it didn't happen simply because they wanted to kill all americans, and the focus on the attack was transparently important for fueling two wars. That doesn't make it not tragic that the civilians died, but it does mean there's merit in examining these narratives.
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Jan 5, 2024 23:27
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Civilized Fishbot posted:Honestly I don't understand the value of "self-determination" on an ethnic/national level. Ethnicities and nations don't have "selves" capable of making decisions - they're indiscrete clusters of people whose shared background can't guarantee that they share a political vision for the future. The concept of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imagined_community attempts to explain it: quote:He defined a nation as "an imagined political community."[1] As Anderson puts it, a nation "is imagined because the members of even the smallest nation will never know most of their fellow-members, meet them, or even hear of them, yet in the minds of each lives the image of their communion."[1] Members of the community probably will never know each of the other members face to face; however, they may have similar interests or identify as part of the same nation. Members hold in their minds a mental image of their affinity. For example, the nationhood felt with other members of your nation when your "imagined community" participates in a larger event such as the Olympic Games. It was originally applied to nationalism but I don't see why one couldn't apply it to any label of identity that comes with an assumption of community that reaches far beyond one's near immediacy. Zionism is intimately tied to European nationalist movements of 19th century and the idea of "self-determination of peoples". That doesn't excuse anything Israel has done to the Palestinians even if it might explain some of it. Frankly in similar circumstances various European nationalisms wouldn't be any better than Zionists are. European nationalisms are relatively dormant because they have mostly ethnically homogenous nation-states where the nation's ethnic identity is under no threat and they can keep immigration as a trickle that can be assimilated into the dominant ethnicity.
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Jan 6, 2024 01:17
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| # ? Jun 11, 2024 19:34 |
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Isn't far right Zionism a similar concept to Manifest Destiny or Lebensraum? It's more than mere self-determination, it's the idea that your nation is entitled to owning a land that's already inhabited, and the willingness to commit ethnic cleansing in order to make it happen.
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Jan 6, 2024 02:28
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