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https://twitter.com/ytirawi/status/1743411493813575711 Things like this absolutely must be kept in mind when discussing the morality of the Palestinian resistance. Nucleic Acids fucked around with this message at 02:34 on Jan 6, 2024 |
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Jan 6, 2024 02:31
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Nucleic Acids posted:https://twitter.com/ytirawi/status/1743411493813575711 Surely there's better examples to keep in mind when discussing the morality of the Palestinian resistance than a tiktok video of a soldier talking poo poo.
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Jan 6, 2024 04:28
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ummel posted:Surely there's better examples to keep in mind when discussing the morality of the Palestinian resistance than a tiktok video of a soldier talking poo poo. This is not unique in terms of how the IOF are approaching their conduct and goals in this.
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Jan 6, 2024 04:40
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Elman posted:Isn't far right Zionism a similar concept to Manifest Destiny or Lebensraum? It's more than mere self-determination, it's the idea that your nation is entitled to owning a land that's already inhabited, and the willingness to commit ethnic cleansing in order to make it happen. Those might be more unique in their historical context (though connected by the same mythology maybe?), but many of the nationalist movements in Europe, once they got their independence immediately became irredentist, looking for lands that were supposedly historically theirs, inhabited by people who could be claimed as kin to be incorporated as part of the greater nation.
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Jan 6, 2024 05:00
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It seems apropos to repost Michael Brooks' take on the Israel/Palestine relationship, which I still think is one of the most clear eyed and moral that I've heard. The second half of his answer about the disparity in power and agency between the two populations is, in my opinion, especially relevant to the current discussion. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=62I61kBahNY
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Jan 6, 2024 05:02
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ummel posted:Surely there's better examples to keep in mind when discussing the morality of the Palestinian resistance than a tiktok video of a soldier talking poo poo. The hundreds (thousands?) of other psychotic tiktoks IDF soldiers keep making that are just like this? IDF e-girls posting instagrams promising bikini photoshoots on Gazan beaches once the cleansing is complete? The hundreds of hours of video of israeli civilians drawing on monobrows and blacking out teeth in cruel mockery of the Palestinians they are slaughtering (look up "Pallywood" sometime). The dozens of videos of IDF and israeli government leadership going on talk shows and holding press meetings and stare directly into the camera as they declare in no uncertain terms that they are going to drive every Palestinian from Gaza? Aside from a tiny cohort of israeli leftists that are actually against apartheid (and not just anti-Nethanyahu or want to prioritize getting their hostages back) the entire state is suffused with the ideology of nazi-like blood-and-soil zionism. This guy is by no means a unique or even particularly egregious example of the pervading ideology and sentiment of the terror state. Stringent posted:It seems apropos to repost Michael Brooks' take on the Israel/Palestine relationship, which I still think is one of the most clear eyed and moral that I've heard. The second half of his answer about the disparity in power and agency between the two populations is, in my opinion, especially relevant to the current discussion. RIP to a real one.
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Jan 6, 2024 05:13
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Grimnarsson posted:Those might be more unique in their historical context (though connected by the same mythology maybe?), but many of the nationalist movements in Europe, once they got their independence immediately became irredentist, looking for lands that were supposedly historically theirs, inhabited by people who could be claimed as kin to be incorporated as part of the greater nation. The combination of ethno-nationalism with a Hobbesian view that countries are irreconcilably opposed to each other and all truces, treaties, and alliances are just temporary moves against greater foes or efforts to buy time made for a potent argument that you needed as much territory and population as possible.
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Jan 6, 2024 08:58
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ummel posted:Surely there's better examples to keep in mind when discussing the morality of the Palestinian resistance than a tiktok video of a soldier talking poo poo. Sorry but as someone who works with American soldiers all day, soldiers shouldn’t have cell phones in combat in the first place. Not only can they be used to triangulate your location, someone will always take a photo or do a TikTok dance in front of a sensitive item. They will wander up on roofs, go outside bunkers, or walk in front of giant radars while they are on trying to get cell phone service. This is all easily solved by having a unit cell phone box and simply restricting use. That all being said, the inability of the IDF to stop the constant stream of these videos from coming out shows not only weak discipline in an awful lot of their ground units, but also a general acceptance of the attitudes displayed by these soldiers. I don’t believe for a second that their chain of command hasn’t seen these posts, that’s certainly not how it works in the US. It’s exactly the same as some shithead making racist morale patches or the like; if they’re wearing it, someone in change of them saw it and didn’t make them take it off. Usually because that person also thought it was funny. It’s a bigger problem than “the boys talking poo poo”” or whatever handwavy excuse people want to come up with.
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Jan 6, 2024 13:11
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Pentecoastal Elites posted:The hundreds of hours of video of israeli civilians drawing on monobrows and blacking out teeth in cruel mockery of the Palestinians they are slaughtering (look up "Pallywood" sometime). I don't see the relevance of these videos to "the morality of the Palestinian resistance" unless your argument is that they partially or wholly justify the murder of random Israeli civilians. The morality of the Palestinian resistance comes from the fact that, by resisting, they might save far more lives than they end. It has nothing to do with "ending these lives isn't a big deal because they might have made racist tiktoks." The idea that widespread bigotry among a civilian population makes it not so bad, or even a good thing really, to kill as many as you can - we're seeing it play out right now in Gaza, as the Israeli state and its supporters produce a copy of Mein Kampf they say they found in or a video of a random Palestinian talking about how they hate Jews. And then they use this to say Palestinians are animals, or an existential threat as long as one is left alive - it is plain and simple dehumanization. The morality of the Palestinian resistance does not flow from Israelis being subhuman or less entitled to life, it obviously flows from the humanity of Palestinians, their entitlement to live, and the importance of defending people facing apartheid and ethnic cleansing by any means necessary. Civilized Fishbot fucked around with this message at 13:38 on Jan 6, 2024 |
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Jan 6, 2024 13:24
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The people in those videos aren’t random people, they’re often members of the military. As I said in my previous post, the sheer volume of material suggests a systemic issue. These are the people responsible for directing engagements on the ground. They quite literally decide who lives and who dies. Keep in mind those videos are shot at the direct expense of lethality as well. You could use terms like “unprofessional” but it honestly downplays the scope of the problem. There is your morality right there. To clarify, this is not an argument that killing civilians on 10/7 was somehow justified. It’s to say that the conduct of an army is absolutely relevant to discussions about the morality of a given conflict. It’s why people are in here discussing the actions of Hamas in the first place. not a value-add fucked around with this message at 14:10 on Jan 6, 2024 |
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Jan 6, 2024 13:50
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The point of my dumb post is that there's a lot to be upset about. Don't subject yourself to dumb TikTok rage bait, imo. https://x.com/AricToler/status/1743339942217203760 https://www.972mag.com/israel-torture-camp-gaza-detainees/ quote:In early December, images circulated worldwide showing dozens of Palestinian men in the city of Beit Lahiya, in the northern Gaza Strip, who were stripped to their underwear, kneeling or sitting hunched over, then blindfolded and put into the back of Israeli military trucks like cattle. The vast majority of these detainees were civilians with no affiliation to Hamas, Israeli security officials later confirmed, and the men were taken away by the army without notifying their families of the detainees’ whereabouts. Some of them never returned. It goes on detailing torture, collective punishment, food and water deprivation, and extrajudicial executions. Source information from Wikipedia: quote:+972 Magazine is a left-wing news and opinion webzine, established in August 2010 by a group of four Israeli writers in Tel Aviv.[1] Noam Sheizaf, a co-founder and the +972 chief executive officer, said they wanted to express a new "and mostly young voice which would take part in the international debate regarding Israel and Palestine".[2] They named the website in reference to the 972 international dialing code, which is shared by Israel and the Palestinian territories.[3] The articles are written primarily in English to reach an international audience.
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Jan 6, 2024 14:14
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Don’t you think they’re connected though? I feel like you can draw a direct line from leaders allowing and condoning the display of media that contains racist and criminal content and the kind of horrific abuses that bring shame on an entire country.
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Jan 6, 2024 15:43
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ummel posted:The point of my dumb post is that there's a lot to be upset about. Don't subject yourself to dumb TikTok rage bait, imo. Otoh, one significant resource for understanding past conflicts in history, and the actors in them, is communications between eachother. Letters between soldiers or their families for instance. We now get to see what these people are thinking in real time. Extra value when they openly admit they're doing war crimes. Edit: poo poo the Abu Graib bs came out in a similar fashion and showed the world what we were doing there.
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Jan 6, 2024 15:57
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ummel posted:The point of my dumb post is that there's a lot to be upset about. Don't subject yourself to dumb TikTok rage bait, imo. Rage bait? Or an honest and accurate depiction of the goals and morality of Israel?
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Jan 6, 2024 16:10
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The Tik-Toks are obviously one more piece of evidence that Israeli society is profoundly racist and encourages contempt toward Palestinians. This is normal when the state is committing genocide. Why you'd focus on the Tik-Toks and not the actual crimes, I can't say, except that talking about Tik-Toks made by civilians enables you to go after the civilians directly rather than indirectly. To bring them up as a factor in "the morality of the Palestinian resistance" - obviously we're talking about the morality of attacking civilians, nobody contests the morality of attacking military targets - serves no purpose except to imply that, if enough people in a country are ideologically committed to the state's bigotry, then the moral status of their deaths is less severe than it would otherwise be. It's a plainly dehumanizing rationale reminiscent of that used to justify Allied slaughter of civilians during WWII and Israeli slaughter of civilians right now - it's the exact reason they made a big deal out of that copy of Mein Kampf they said they found. The morality of the Palestinian resistance doesn't stem from Israelis being immoral people who deserve bad things to happen to them, it stems from Palestinians being people like everyone else who are entitled to live free from apartheid, ethnic cleansing, and genocide. Civilized Fishbot fucked around with this message at 17:25 on Jan 6, 2024 |
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Jan 6, 2024 17:12
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The difference, imo, is that Israeli officials are pretty explicit in their racism and views on Palestinians. There's no discrepancy here vs., e.g. Abu Ghraib, where there was a sense of, "are we the baddies?" with the public. Or course you're free to do what you want to do, but it's a video made to be seen by Palestinians or sympathizers to piss them off. There's no actual content to that video, just poo poo talking. You're doing exactly what that soldier wants you to do, get mad. Y'all are correct though. Just take care of yourselves. It takes 30 seconds to make a video like that and your blood pressure won't go down for a while. Kind of a weird derail, my bad.
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Jan 6, 2024 17:14
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Quote is not edit, sorry
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Jan 6, 2024 17:24
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Civilized Fishbot posted:The morality of the Palestinian resistance doesn't stem from Israelis being immoral people who deserve bad things to happen to them, it stems from Palestinians being people like everyone else who are entitled to live free from apartheid, ethnic cleansing, and genocide. This is why Israel is so desperate to promote the particularly gruesome atrocities which they claim happened on October 7th, and not so much the relatively bog-standard atrocities which everyone essentially agrees happened on October 7th (the unnecessary killing of civilians). Because if you accept that October 7th was just a common-or-garden atrocity, like so many others that most parties to a conflict have committed from time to time, then it's unjustifiable to a reasonable person to engage in the sort of response that Israel is engaging in, and it's further unjustifiable to maintain an apartheid system. If, however, you believe that Hamas did things so unspeakable vile that no human being, reasonably speaking, could do them -- well, then you open the door to saying that Palestine is a fundamentally inhuman society, and therefore no action taken in response is unjustifiable. That's what they're trying to convince you of, and make no mistake: it is working with a lot of people in the Global North, at least to the point that they can be convinced not to care about what's going on in Palestine even if they aren't particularly supportive of it.
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Jan 6, 2024 17:39
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Israel has always had significant elements with those abhorrent racist views, but what October 7th did is turn that into the overwhelming majority view. I'm honestly struggling to think of a single action Hamas could've taken that would prove more catastrophically counter-productive to their cause than slaughtering some of the most prominent peace activists in the country along with their children. How exactly is a left-wing Israeli politician supposed to make the case that peaceful coexistence with Hamas is possible with when they just demonstrated that they're out to kill all Israelis, even ones who were sympathetic to them and who were actively engaged in both political protests in favour of Palestine and in volunteering to help people within Gaza? This matters because it means the public support for the war is not remotely wavering in the way it did during past campaigns - the leftwing simply does not exist in the country anymore.
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Jan 6, 2024 17:40
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the instructive element of the tiktoks is not "instead of" the horrors and atrocities the israeli army is wreaking, but "in addition to", to show that this isn't a few bad apples, or evil leadership, or click-harvesting "rage bait", but that the nazi-like death cult ideology of zionism has permeated every level of israeli society, and that has to inform every stance on and decision made about israel. What israel is doing isn't a defensive action, or an outsized response, or even an act of revenge: it is a slaughter they relish at every level of society and are gleeful in it and carrying it out. It won't be enough to depose Netanyahu, for example, because the whole of israel is saturated with the ideology that motivates him. It's Netanyahus all the way down. Please note that this doesn't mean "kill all israelis", but that israel must be engaged with like how nazi Germany was (or rather, should have been). It can not be allowed to continue, it must be dismantled completely, and the israeli citizens should not, for the most part (exceptions for eg. the illegal settlers) be displaced, but allowed to live in Palestine as citizens under a Palestinian government. It's going to be a messy and almost certainly horrific process one way or another, but that's the only way forward.
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Jan 6, 2024 17:54
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Irony Be My Shield posted:How exactly is a left-wing Israeli politician supposed to make the case that peaceful coexistence with Hamas is possible with when they just demonstrated that they're out to kill all Israelis, even ones who were sympathetic to them and who were actively engaged in both political protests in favour of Palestine and in volunteering to help people within Gaza? They were never going to make that case. Nothing Israel is capable of doing will make the lives of the Palestinians better. The end game is clear, only the timeframe is in question.
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Jan 6, 2024 17:59
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Bel Shazar posted:They were never going to make that case. Nothing Israel is capable of doing will make the lives of the Palestinians better. The end game is clear, only the timeframe is in question. I don't think it's particularly fruitful to engage with his line of argumentation because it is essentially the same zionist argument that blames Palestinians for their treatment by israel but with a rhetorical hedge. It implies that something could have been done until Hamas showed up, which the entirety of the history of the israeli state roundly disproves.
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Jan 6, 2024 18:04
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Pentecoastal Elites posted:I don't think it's particularly fruitful to engage with his line of argumentation because it is essentially the same zionist argument that blames Palestinians for their treatment by israel but with a rhetorical hedge. It implies that something could have been done until Hamas showed up, which the entirety of the history of the israeli state roundly disproves. It's an ethnic cleansing with leadership willing to make it a genocide if people won't just leave. It's been that way for decades and will continue unless outside forced intercede. Sometimes it's state, sometimes it's state allowed, but it has and will continue. Not engaging with that is mot engaging with reality. The Israeli left will never save Palestine.
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Jan 6, 2024 18:17
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Bel Shazar posted:It's an ethnic cleansing with leadership willing to make it a genocide if people won't just leave. It's been that way for decades and will continue unless outside forced intercede. Sometimes it's state, sometimes it's state allowed, but it has and will continue. I think maybe you misunderstood me -- I agree with you completely, I am saying that Irony Be My Shield's argument is fundamentally a zionist canard with a weak (and unfalsifiable) rhetorical hedge and probably isn't worth giving any addiitonal oxygen.
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Jan 6, 2024 18:27
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Unfortunately I think from a strategic standpoint the 10/7 attacks were generally successful. Other posters have pointed this out, but Hamas does not seem to view the Israeli left as a force that can provide meaningful leverage for their goals so saying “well they really blew it by burning that bridge!” sort of misses the forest for the trees. You could wind back the clock and try to find points where things could have gone different. The assassination of Rabin is probably one such moment, and maybe a more moderate Palestinian government could have risen and a more even peace deal could have been struck, but would the Israeli side ever have been able to gather up enough support to stop the settlements and give what they clearly see as territorial concessions? It honestly feels like trying to hold back the tide. The whole thing is sad and I think the only real solution is for the US to pressure Israel to stop. Honestly we should’ve applied that pressure before all this unfolded. To put this more succinctly, the only party in all of this with any real leverage over Israel is the US. I won’t pretend to know what the general mood is across the Middle East, but Israel’s actions in Gaza are creating a ton of diplomatic and military headaches for the US right now to say the least. Hamas likely orchestrated the attack with this in mind, and to put the gulf countries in a tough spot too if they continue to normalize relations. It’s cruel logic but it makes sense. not a value-add fucked around with this message at 18:54 on Jan 6, 2024 |
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Jan 6, 2024 18:44
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Irony Be My Shield posted:Israel has always had significant elements with those abhorrent racist views, but what October 7th did is turn that into the overwhelming majority view. I'm honestly struggling to think of a single action Hamas could've taken that would prove more catastrophically counter-productive to their cause than slaughtering some of the most prominent peace activists in the country along with their children. How exactly is a left-wing Israeli politician supposed to make the case that peaceful coexistence with Hamas is possible with when they just demonstrated that they're out to kill all Israelis, even ones who were sympathetic to them and who were actively engaged in both political protests in favour of Palestine and in volunteering to help people within Gaza? This is wrong on a lot of levels, Israel has been an ultra-right state for a while now. But, I'd encourage you to go back and watch the Brooks video I posted earlier. There's lovely people on both sides sure, but one side has nuclear weapons and F-16s, and the other side has bubble gum and duct tape. What happened on October 7th is Israel's fault. They have the power and the resources. What's happening now in Gaza is also Israel's fault. They have the power and the resources. You can't talk about these things as if the people in Gaza, or Hamas, or whatever have an equal seat at the table. That is a fundamental misunderstanding and misrepresentation of the situation as it currently exists.
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Jan 6, 2024 18:53
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Pentecoastal Elites posted:the instructive element of the tiktoks is not "instead of" the horrors and atrocities the israeli army is wreaking, but "in addition to", to show that this isn't a few bad apples, or evil leadership, or click-harvesting "rage bait", but that the nazi-like death cult ideology of zionism has permeated every level of israeli society, and that has to inform every stance on and decision made about israel. What israel is doing isn't a defensive action, or an outsized response, or even an act of revenge: it is a slaughter they relish at every level of society and are gleeful in it and carrying it out. It won't be enough to depose Netanyahu, for example, because the whole of israel is saturated with the ideology that motivates him. It's Netanyahus all the way down. Uh, that's a really hosed up way of looking at things. I'm not sure any society comes out looking good by the worst examples of what gets posted on a tiktok or any other social media platform. The internet has really rotted your brain if this is how you think. I think there are other avenues to make a claim about the general Israeli thought, but look at what these assholes are posting on tiktok really isn't it.
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Jan 6, 2024 18:56
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not a value-add posted:Unfortunately I think from a strategic standpoint the 10/7 attacks were generally successful. I think it was successful for Hamas - by my understanding they were losing popularity in Gaza because Arab countries were increasingly normalizing relations with Israel without any action on Palestine, and now Hamas has successfully centered Palestine in Middle Eastern politics and centered themselves as the heart and whole of Palestinian resistance. Whether it was successful for Palestine - half of Gaza is destroyed, tens of thousands are dead, more tens of thousands are gruesomely injured, over a million starving. The immediate future of Palestine is impossibly grim and the long-term future appears to be an international occupation in Gaza and accelerated annexation of the West Bank. The Israeli state has drastically accelerated the construction of a rhetorical and material foundation for genocide. There's a PR victory and they've set back Israel's normalization with other countries, but is that worth it?
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Jan 6, 2024 19:08
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WarpedLichen posted:Uh, that's a really hosed up way of looking at things. I'm not sure any society comes out looking good by the worst examples of what gets posted on a tiktok or any other social media platform. The internet has really rotted your brain if this is how you think. I think there are other avenues to make a claim about the general Israeli thought, but look at what these assholes are posting on tiktok really isn't it. Again, the tiktoks are a data point you can use to calibrate your understanding of zionist sentiment towards the people they've identified as untermenschen. You can also look at the TV program comedy sketches mocking the Palestinian cause and the pro-Palestinian protests, you can look at the hasbara accounts (professional and amateur) insisting israel has every right to exterminate Palestinians and take their land and property, the talking heads and interviewees in every strata from the man-on-the-street to cultural celebrities to the heights of the israeli government who paint Palestinians as violent animals who deserve to be put down. There exists very nearly no force within israel to give pushback to this, those elements of the culture have been meticulously weeded out over the decades. What "left" exists in israel is primarily against the "war" not because they're against the genocide, but because they're anti-Nethanyahu and think (correctly) his aim is not to get the hostages back. The simple fact is that these are not bad apples making shocking tiktoks for rage clicks, this is the ambient sentiment in the zionist sphere. This is how the majority of israelis -- as well as zionists everywhere -- feel about Palestine and the ongoing genocide. I think in this subforum most correctly intuit that "the cruelty is the point" when it comes to other far-right sentiment regarding eg. gay and trans people, migrants, POC, etc. Zionism is fundamentally a nazi-like ultra-right-wing ideology and not one iota less cruel and depraved.
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Jan 6, 2024 19:10
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The Israeli electoral left is somehow more impotent than the Western electoral left. The last time they had any say, their achievement was boasting on how bad a deal the PLO agreed to ("an entity which is less than a state") which was still enough to see him assassinated. There's been a lot of words on 972 and Haaretz written about how the international community should listen to the Israeli left, but not even other Israelis listen to the Israeli left. That's not to say there are no good Israeli movements from the left, but they take the form of B'Tselem and Breaking the Silence, rather than any delusion that there's an opening in the greater Israeli public. Civilized Fishbot posted:Whether it was successful for Palestine - half of Gaza is destroyed, tens of thousands are dead, more tens of thousands are gruesomely injured, over a million starving. The immediate future of Palestine is impossibly grim and the long-term future appears to be an international occupation in Gaza and accelerated annexation of the West Bank. The Israeli state has drastically accelerated the construction of a rhetorical and material foundation for genocide. It's definitely going to come down to whether or not Israel successfully completes the genocide; if they're forced to stop without having successfully removed any significant chunk of Palestinians & without significantly degrading Hamas' capabilities, then it's a long-term win. Israel is rapidly losing any respect it had, it's the first non-African country to be tried in International Court over genocide, Hamas is more popular than ever, and Iran has successfully demonstrated that it can supply several fronts which can pressure Israel into failure; massive economic damage, a successful blockade, forcing back communities in the north, overwhelming both Trophy and Iron Dome. Regardless of the human cost they extract from Gaza, Israel has never looked more vulnerable than they do today. https://twitter.com/haaretzcom/status/1742950264771084617 Neurolimal fucked around with this message at 19:33 on Jan 6, 2024 |
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Jan 6, 2024 19:21
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These stupid "kidnapped" posters (with faces of kidnapped Israelis) are appearing everywhere in my small town in Switzerland. They are put up on the "free to post" areas that are usually used by small venues, dance teachers, collectives, and so on. I have no idea who is putting them up. I can't help but feel like some people are taping them to the walls just so they can count one more "act of antisemitism" when they inevitably get taken down. Objectively there is no loving reason for these posters to be there. They are not advertising anything, they are not even encouraging people to donate or anything like that. They are just pure propaganda. The weaponization of antisemitism is a real thing yo.
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Jan 6, 2024 20:32
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go play outside Skyler posted:The weaponization of antisemitism is a real thing yo. Every time I see Zionists shrieking about 'human shields' all I think about is how they've intentionally used the entire Jewish population worldwide as shields from justified criticism for literally the entirety of their existence. With fascists, it's always projection.
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Jan 6, 2024 20:37
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Irony Be My Shield posted:Israel has always had significant elements with those abhorrent racist views, but what October 7th did is turn that into the overwhelming majority view. Nah. The previous massacres against Gazans also saw overwhelming popular support from Jewish Israelis.
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Jan 6, 2024 20:38
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go play outside Skyler posted:These stupid "kidnapped" posters (with faces of kidnapped Israelis) are appearing everywhere in my small town in Switzerland. They are put up on the "free to post" areas that are usually used by small venues, dance teachers, collectives, and so on. I have no idea who is putting them up. I can't help but feel like some people are taping them to the walls just so they can count one more "act of antisemitism" when they inevitably get taken down. They've always been pure propaganda, there's no one who could possibly have any relevant information of any of the people kidnapped or killed and be confused about what they might do with it. We know where they are, relatively speaking. They are somewhere in Gaza, and anyone who has more relevant information than that is likely also in Gaza. There's an offside chance that someone who was recently in Gaza and managed to get out has some relevant info, but I don't think posters in small-town Switzerland or even New York City is the best way to reach that very specific, very small audience.
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Jan 6, 2024 20:46
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go play outside Skyler posted:I can't help but feel like some people are taping them to the walls just so they can count one more "act of antisemitism" when they inevitably get taken down. This is the intended purpose of those posters, yes.
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Jan 6, 2024 21:08
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Civilized Fishbot posted:Honestly I don't understand the value of "self-determination" on an ethnic/national level. Ethnicities and nations don't have "selves" capable of making decisions - they're indiscrete clusters of people whose shared background can't guarantee that they share a political vision for the future. It dates back to the birth of the "nation-state" concept, the rise of nationalism, and the decline of the old monarchies that had dominated the pre-industrial world. The American and French revolutions spread the idea that the legitimacy of governance was based on the consent of the people rather than on the whims of a divinely-appointed monarch, while also laying the foundations for nationalist theories about the overriding power of cultural unity and cultural hierarchies. The following Napoleonic Wars shook up the governance of many of the old European empires, forcing them to pursue modernization and centralization of their archaic decentralized governments - to the dismay of the empires' various cultural minorities, for whom "centralization" tended to mean a decline in their autonomy and a dismantling of old traditional rights. Throw in the general social upheaval of the Industrial Revolution, shake it around a bunch, and what you end up with is a bunch of nationalist revolutions for freedom and independence from their imperial overlords. The idea's enduring popularity has heavy roots in political considerations. When one empire wanted to weaken a rival empire and absorb that empire's possessions into its own sphere of influence, the "right to self-determination" was a convenient excuse to get involved in sponsoring and supporting nationalist rebellions by minority groups, who would carve out their own independent states which would in turn become client states or possessions of the empire that sponsored their bid for independence. A "right to self-determination" was a convenient excuse for the British and French to carve up the German, Austro-Hungarian, Russian, and Ottoman Empires and divide the pieces amongst themselves in the wake of World War I. Similarly, the idea of a "right to self-determination" was sometimes incorporated into interpretations of the Monroe Doctrine as a justification for opposing European influence and colonization on the American continents. not a value-add posted:The people in those videos aren’t random people, they’re often members of the military. As I said in my previous post, the sheer volume of material suggests a systemic issue. These are the people responsible for directing engagements on the ground. They quite literally decide who lives and who dies. Keep in mind those videos are shot at the direct expense of lethality as well. You could use terms like “unprofessional” but it honestly downplays the scope of the problem. There is your morality right there. The actions of a military as an organization (say, for example, killing twenty thousand people while starving hundreds of thousands) are far more important than the words of individual soldiers (say, for example, a few soldiers posting lovely Tiktoks). I realize that it's easy to lose perspective on what's actually happening and what's actually important when you're spectating the conflict via Twitter from six thousand miles away, but I can absolutely promise you that we don't need Tiktoks to prove that the Israeli government and military have racist intentions toward Gazans. gently caress, there's actual sitting government ministers that are more than happy to say racist poo poo about Palestinians. Irony Be My Shield posted:Israel has always had significant elements with those abhorrent racist views, but what October 7th did is turn that into the overwhelming majority view. I'm honestly struggling to think of a single action Hamas could've taken that would prove more catastrophically counter-productive to their cause than slaughtering some of the most prominent peace activists in the country along with their children. How exactly is a left-wing Israeli politician supposed to make the case that peaceful coexistence with Hamas is possible with when they just demonstrated that they're out to kill all Israelis, even ones who were sympathetic to them and who were actively engaged in both political protests in favour of Palestine and in volunteering to help people within Gaza? It's not like the IDF asks Gazan civilians their stance on Israeli-Palestinian cooperation before it bombs their houses. And frankly, it's not like the Israeli left was doing a good job of winning anyone over prior to Oct 7th, so let's not blame their failures on Palestinians. After all, if the Israeli left had been successful at promoting peaceful coexistence with Hamas, then conditions in Gaza would have been very different on Oct 6th.
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Jan 6, 2024 21:33
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Main Paineframe posted:
I mean I wish I was six thousand miles away but that is not the case. Anyway, I don’t think you need to pick one over the other, you can consider both. And besides, it’s not like TikToks have some magic bubble around them full of vape juice and eggplant emojis that makes them less historically relevant than say, a letter or a journal. I want to reiterate a point I made earlier though: for combat troops in an environment like Gaza a lot has to go wrong for a stupid TikTok to ever reach the internet. The soldier has to take his hands off his weapon, look down at his phone which shouldn’t be on in the first place, shoot the stupid video, then post it assuming he even has service and isn’t wandering around aimlessly trying to get more bars. Every single person in his team, if not his squad, is seeing him do this. Instead of fighting/pulling security/searching rooms/cleaning weapons/maybe sleeping a tiny bit he is making stupid videos. And they let it slide or sometimes even join in. It’s sloppy as gently caress and literally prioritizes acting like a douche over your own life.
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Jan 7, 2024 00:21
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Home made fascist propaganda to pop their friends, the other fascists, is definitely an important thing to keep in mind when discussing the morality of the people who oppose them.
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Jan 7, 2024 00:58
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not a value-add posted:I mean I wish I was six thousand miles away but that is not the case. Anyway, I don’t think you need to pick one over the other, you can consider both. And besides, it’s not like TikToks have some magic bubble around them full of vape juice and eggplant emojis that makes them less historically relevant than say, a letter or a journal. For example, a few Russians did poo poo like this in the opening days of their invasion of Ukraine and they got discharged immediately. This isn't "Some dumbass taking a selfie" these actions are fully endorsed or you'd hear about them getting disciplined by the end of the day
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Jan 7, 2024 01:38
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Irony Be My Shield posted:Israel has always had significant elements with those abhorrent racist views, but what October 7th did is turn that into the overwhelming majority view. I'm honestly struggling to think of a single action Hamas could've taken that would prove more catastrophically counter-productive to their cause than slaughtering some of the most prominent peace activists in the country along with their children. How exactly is a left-wing Israeli politician supposed to make the case that peaceful coexistence with Hamas is possible with when they just demonstrated that they're out to kill all Israelis, even ones who were sympathetic to them and who were actively engaged in both political protests in favour of Palestine and in volunteering to help people within Gaza? Not that I would ever condone what Hamas did, but who needs peace activists whose only contribution to the cause is dancing the day away in a haze of weed smoke under the shadow of the world's largest concentration camp? They didn't stop the right wing in Israel from ascending and Bibi used Hamas to cut their throats. The complete failure of the Israeli left is what led to this event. In similar fashion the American left will poo poo out of their eyes if Trump is re-elected, never recognizing that it was their job to do what it takes to fight the right when the fighting is good.
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Jan 7, 2024 03:39
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