Paradoxish posted:

"Engineers wouldn't let this happen" is always a cop out because engineers did let this happen. Management is 100% to blame for making and implementing the decisions that kill people, but a ton of experts still recognized a fatal flaw in MCAS and weren't shouting from the rooftops about it. Not becoming a whisteblower isn't really in the same ballpark as being the person who literally kills for money, but at a minimum it means you don't get to say that something like this wouldn't happen on your watch because it did.

Paradoxish posted:

Not becoming a whisteblower isn't really in the same ballpark as being the person who literally kills for money, but at a minimum it means you don't get to say that something like this wouldn't happen on your watch because it did.

Thoguh posted:

Spirit in this case is Spirit Aerospace, the subcontractor that makes the actual airplane bodies for Boeing commercial planes.

Canned Sunshine posted:

So you took it as the computer test, and not as the prior scantron or written form exams? Prior to the computer-only exam, it was scantron but you still didn't get partial credit for working out the answers in the PE exam book. They pretty much recycled those... The only two main exams I'm currently aware of that still assign partial credit for properly-worked solutions are the Seismic and Structural exams that have their own 8-hour test window, and I think those are still written-only?

Because honestly from what you said, I think they would have had the same problem regardless of whether it was the prior scantron form, the written exam form of 20+ years ago, or the current computer multiple-choice form. And I only say that because even in the past, when it was purely written solution with boxed answer, if the answer was wrong, they'd go to partial credit for a properly-worked approach, but that still depended on having interpreted the question correctly to begin with.

comedyblissoption posted:

what if we individualism systemic problems

Thoguh posted:

Spirit in this case is Spirit Aerospace, the subcontractor that makes the actual airplane bodies for Boeing commercial planes.

Mr Hootington posted:

Ordering groceries through the various stores apps also gives discounts

Paradoxish posted:

That's the opposite of what I said though

To be clear I am saying that you can make subject matter experts say or do just about anything if there's enough monetary incentive and/or social/organizational pressure. The entire COVID era is pretty much defined by healthcare professionals selling themselves out to the detriment of public health. You can staff an entire organization with engineers and they'll still be under the same top-down pressure from external stakeholders like shareholders, because that's the world we live in.

Raere posted:

Five
Five dollar
Five dollar soft drink

Car Hater posted:

Scarabrae posted:

I have been advised that if you use the official mcdonalds app to do your ordering it will be much cheaper

Teabag Dome Scandal posted:

someone was saying the same can be true at target through online ordering and pickup

galagazombie posted:

The MBA and it’s consequences, have been a disaster for the human race…

mawarannahr posted:

'merican engineers probably can't math

Bar Ran Dun posted:

it’s not easy to tell large organizations they are wrong and that no you cannot do that way. sometimes it takes years of losing the same fight over and over again. and sometimes winning means you’ll never be allowed to be there again.

Cheesus posted:

Quoted for truth.

In some ways, I feel lucky that it took until my late 40s to encounter this as a computer toucher. On the other hand, if I had experienced it earlier, I suspect that by now it would be much less stressful.

Capital has basically trained me to live by the motto 'as long as my paycheck clears, im up for whatever stupid idea management has".

I have zero incentive to rock any boats. The few times I've been tested to make the slightest wave, I've been swiftly reminded that I'm not paid to think. My job is to only shape myself to the cog-shape of the day.

The Oldest Man posted:

it's a lot easier to live this way when you aren't responsible for anything that can kill or hurt people

which to be honest is why im in a completely nonsense vibes industry

dunno how people go into work every day doing a job thats actually important in modern corporate America, must feel like you're being eaten by rats from the inside out

Rectal Death Alert posted:

I'm this person.

Without going into too much detail the CFR governing manufacturing is very general and vague and it's up to organizations to decide what is compliant. This leads to subjective opinions ruling the day in endless fights about semantics and the definition of specific words.

After fighting for 12-24 months with dozens of meetings and hundreds of emails on several industry standard changes with people who just refuse to listen I recently broke down and started dog walking them in meetings with elaborate pre-prepared takedowns that have citations and references. Enough evidence no person would be able to disagree.

The executives are now mad that I am violating decorum and are threatening to fire me. They don't care why fights are happening they just want them to stop and I'm just the person starting fights. C-Suite doesn't seem capable of looking at the context of the situation and are jumping into the fray against me making me literally one person against the world trying to do the right thing with all of the evidence on my side.

I think I'm going to quit and go dig holes because It's a literal loving nightmare. I work in an episode of the twilight zone and I honestly imagine this is what hell is like.

bedpan posted:

They don't want to know the evidence because knowing that evidence, or it being documented that they were told, undermines the normally solid defense of "I didn't know" if they ever face an consequences or investigation for something horrible that happened as a result of the thing they didn't want to do

Rectal Death Alert posted:

I'm this person.

Without going into too much detail the CFR governing manufacturing is very general and vague and it's up to organizations to decide what is compliant. This leads to subjective opinions ruling the day in endless fights about semantics and the definition of specific words.

After fighting for 12-24 months with dozens of meetings and hundreds of emails on several industry standard changes with people who just refuse to listen I recently broke down and started dog walking them in meetings with elaborate pre-prepared takedowns that have citations and references. Enough evidence no person would be able to disagree.

The executives are now mad that I am violating decorum and are threatening to fire me. They don't care why fights are happening they just want them to stop and I'm just the person starting fights. C-Suite doesn't seem capable of looking at the context of the situation and are jumping into the fray against me making me literally one person against the world trying to do the right thing with all of the evidence on my side.

I think I'm going to quit and go dig holes because It's a literal loving nightmare. I work in an episode of the twilight zone and I honestly imagine this is what hell is like.

Rectal Death Alert posted:

I think I'm going to quit and go dig holes because It's a literal loving nightmare. I work in an episode of the twilight zone and I honestly imagine this is what hell is like.

ProfessorBooty posted:

Yes - I took the test in November 2023. I didn't actually finish my engineering degree until 2019. I started college when I was 30, and had medical issues I didn't understand at the time that affected my cognition and focus. I'm definitely an outlier in many ways.

I think there are some questions that might provide partial credit? If so I only got two or three in the entire 8 hour long test when I took it.

I admit I'm exaggerating and also being a curmudgeon, but there's a certain culture and pride that is lost when these status symbols are turned into a glorified A+ computer certification. The best engineers in my opinion aren't the ones who are good at business, budget, expense tracking, and test taking. Maybe an engineering manager who likes that side can get good at that, but at this point in my career I'd be ecstatic if I had to work with someone who struggles with English but is also the type to pull out his calculator and make sure his designers are doing things right, and I'd accept that more time would be spent communicating and understanding with them. Most folks have a terrible grasp of technical spoken English nowadays anyway.

Not a Children posted:

I passed the PE in 2017, before my subject was converted to a computer test. Was fully multiple choice back then, too. No partial credit. Very much a "how good at standardized testing" situation besides testing fairly fundamental stuff.

The skills needed to pass the exam are almost entirely different from those needed to be a good PE. The primary skills you need to learn are checking your work, putting your foot down when you need more time, and telling a manager to go gently caress themselves in corporatespeak when they tell you to rubber stamp something.

It's also important to know when the battle isn't worth fighting. If it won't hurt anyone I consider management perfectly free to waste as much money as they want.

Paradoxish posted:

"Engineers wouldn't let this happen" is always a cop out because engineers did let this happen. Management is 100% to blame for making and implementing the decisions that kill people, but a ton of experts still recognized a fatal flaw in MCAS and weren't shouting from the rooftops about it. Not becoming a whisteblower isn't really in the same ballpark as being the person who literally kills for money, but at a minimum it means you don't get to say that something like this wouldn't happen on your watch because it did.