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GlyphGryph posted:There were still significantly more men than women (roughly twice as many) saying finances were keeping them from going to college though - a big enough to make up for that difference and then some - which I think shouldn't be ignored. Someone's lying here.
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Jan 9, 2024 22:05
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Barrel Cactaur posted:The problem is young men will be looking for an enemy and young white men will not look at the power structure because it lies and tells them they go to the top of they pull the bootstraps hard enough. Most other groups can point to a specific way they have been dicked over or benefited. Young men have this hole that can just get filled with any explanation, and truthiness rules. we need to fill the holes of young men koolkal posted:Someone's lying here. i dont think so - there isn't some objective truth that people are expressing here. it's perfectly possible for two people from identical socioeconomic circumstances to reach different conclusions about whether it financially makes sense to go to college or not, or in other words whether finances might keep them from attending college, and that doesn't mean one of them is being dishonest.
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Jan 9, 2024 22:08
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GlyphGryph posted:There were still significantly more men than women (roughly twice as many) saying finances were keeping them from going to college though - a big enough to make up for that difference and then some - which I think shouldn't be ignored. Where did you see that it was twice as many? The Pew study says women cite money more often than men. quote:Women (44%) are more likely than men (39%) to say not being able to afford college is a major reason they don’t have a bachelor’s degree. Men and women are about equally likely to say needing to work to help support their family was a major impediment. https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2021/11/08/whats-behind-the-growing-gap-between-men-and-women-in-college-completion/
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Jan 9, 2024 22:10
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koolkal posted:Someone's lying here. He's right that the biggest gender gap was in the two volition-based categories, it was the largest category of male non-attendees relative to female non-attendees. But significantly more men than women were not attending college for all reasons, including the actual largest reasons - "can't afford to" and "supporting family". Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:Where did you see that it was twice as many? This is where I was pulling the numbers from. That says 47 out of every 100 men are not attending college, citing either inability to afford the degree or a need to support their families. While only 44 out of every 100 women avoided attending college for those reason. Although the categories are not exclusive and we're both sort of pretending they are but I'm not gonna dig into that part. GlyphGryph fucked around with this message at 22:19 on Jan 9, 2024 |
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Jan 9, 2024 22:13
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Barrel Cactaur posted:The problem is young men will be looking for an enemy and young white men will not look at the power structure because it lies and tells them they go to the top of they pull the bootstraps hard enough. It’s not just the power structure, you can see it right here in this thread. Men should be taught that their value isn’t rooted in being a provider, they should be able to safely express emotional vulnerability, we should all act as a social safety net for young men slipping away into being radicalized. Instead the answer is a smug “improve yourselves”.
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Jan 9, 2024 22:18
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GlyphGryph posted:He's right that the biggest gender gap was in the two volition-based categories, it was the largest category of male non-attendees relative to female non-attendees. But significantly more men than women were not attending college for all reasons, including the actual largest reasons - "can't afford to" and "supporting family". Where are you getting that more than twice as many men are not going to college for financial reasons than women? On both financial measures, women were more likely to say it was an issue than men. 
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Jan 9, 2024 22:22
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin has released more information about his medical conditions that caused his hospitalization. Yeah this guy needs to resign and Biden needs to accept it. What an incredible failure of judgment.
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Jan 9, 2024 22:23
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For whatever my anecdote is worth, I'm a younger millennial non white woman in tech so I've encountered way too many dudes into the manosphere. There's like a 1:1 correlation between men who won't shut up about Joe Rogan and men who won't stop talking over you. These guys are completely materially fine but still act this way, and I don't intend to get along with them enough to find out why.
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Jan 9, 2024 22:23
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Rogan appears to have served as a major onramp.
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Jan 9, 2024 22:24
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Mecca-Benghazi posted:For whatever my anecdote is worth, I'm a younger millennial non white woman in tech so I've encountered way too many dudes into the manosphere. There's like a 1:1 correlation between men who won't shut up about Joe Rogan and men who won't stop talking over you. These guys are completely materially fine but still act this way, and I don't intend to get along with them enough to find out why. that doesnt shock me at all honestly. sorry for your expirence.
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Jan 9, 2024 22:26
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:Where are you getting that more than twice as many men are not going to college for financial reasons than women? I was assuming that the numbers cited in thread on the previous page for respective attendance rates was correct, but apparently it is not and the gap between attendance is not that large. There are more men not going for financial reasons than women, but not twice as many. Using the numbers from your source: 25% of men are not attending college citing "can't afford it" compared to 23.7% of women. 22.4% of men are not attending college citing "supporting family" compared to 20.5% of women. 21.7% of men say "they just didn't want to go" and 16.6% said "they didn't need it", compared to 13.5% and 10.26% for women in those categories. I've already said the gap is biggest for those last two, sure, but they are still smaller (especially the "they didn't need it" category which you cited exclusively and as the largest to begin with) than the finance and support ones. Edit: I'm looking into the numbers a bit more, and the discrepancy in dropout rates is interested. It should also be pointed out that those above numbers are all for age 25 and up folks and do not including the younger people choosing not to attend college now, which are probably somewhat more skewed based on the trend. But the ultimate conclusion is that more women both feel that they need to attend and feel like they can afford to attend. GlyphGryph fucked around with this message at 22:42 on Jan 9, 2024 |
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Jan 9, 2024 22:26
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Tiny Timbs posted:Yeah this guy needs to resign and Biden needs to accept it. What an incredible failure of judgment. Given how we have neither ill intent nor actual consequences associated with this incident and there apparently wasn't any kind of policy covering how it should have been done, it's not clear to me how anyone would be served by firing Austin and having to put another SecDef through confirmation. I mean, yeah, he hosed up, but it's already a public embarrassment to him. I don't see why it needs to be more.
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Jan 9, 2024 22:46
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Eletriarnation posted:Given how we have neither ill intent nor actual consequences associated with this incident and there apparently wasn't any kind of policy covering how it should have been done, it's not clear to me how anyone would be served by firing Austin and having to put another SecDef through confirmation. yeah, my guess is some secretary or aid to him and/or the deputy head will be sacked/resign.
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Jan 9, 2024 22:51
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Heck Yes! Loam! posted:Depends on the crime a bit of I'm being honest, but generally I would love to see actual rehabilitation and destroy the prison system as it stands, but as things currently are you can't make a solid decision about a person just by knowing they went to prison. It shouldn't be a deciding factor when evaluating any person's character. Why are the two different?
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Jan 9, 2024 22:54
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Eletriarnation posted:Given how we have neither ill intent nor actual consequences associated with this incident and there apparently wasn't any kind of policy covering how it should have been done, it's not clear to me how anyone would be served by firing Austin and having to put another SecDef through confirmation. Failures of judgment don’t require consequences or intent to be actionable, just ask any junior officer or enlisted person what happens when they no-show for multiple days in a row and nobody can get a status on them. It’s extremely uncommon for these types of things to happen at higher levels in the DoD, both because of the staff ensuring it doesn’t and because of the seriousness in leaving a gap of leadership coverage. In this case, I think it’s arguable that the impact to nuclear readiness was enough of a consequence. There is no policy excuse here. None. He had a deputy and staff and did not use them. Edit: To add why I think something needs to be done: this is a really fundamental failure in judgment for a person in a position where their judgment needs to be unimpeachable. Tiny Timbs fucked around with this message at 22:59 on Jan 9, 2024 |
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Jan 9, 2024 22:54
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Bar Ran Dun posted:Why are the two different? Are you asking me why judging a person for having a prison sentence in the past and someone currently being an rear end in a top hat is or should be different? I feel like it should be kind of obvious in that one of the hypothetical people is being an rear end in a top hat, and the other is just a person with a past.
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Jan 9, 2024 23:04
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In regards to the previous two pages of  , as a society, we have limited ways to deal with the radicalization of young (white) men. The first is improve material conditions. This has the impossible (in the current political climate) hurdle of "costs money". Another option is to put these men in re-education camps. This is the same dichotomy that was presented in 2016 in regards to Trump voters, so it is safe to assume the problem will only get worse. There is also a vague third way that involves yelling at women for having preferences for things (such as height) that men have no control over, but the issues with that are trivial and left as an exercise for the reader. In conclusion, everything is terrible and it is impossible for the left to present an alternative, due to a lack of resources.
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Jan 9, 2024 23:15
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GlyphGryph posted:And we should also address the growing problem among certain segments of progressives and leftists that young men, especially young white men, don't deserve to have good influences or good role models or stuff that speaks to them directly and that its a bad thing to try, because god knows the right wingers are happy filling that niche and we should probably be doing literally anything to counter that narrative and give them a path forward. Sorry, can you explain this in a little more detail? Because it looks like you're saying that leftists are saying that white men aren't allowed to have role models anymore, but I really have no idea how you're coming to that conclusion. It really feels like I'm missing something. If anything, I'm more concerned that young white men have far too many absolutely loving terrible role models that present terrible influences. Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:Vanity Fair ran a very interesting article a year ago about how the right frames itself as counterculture to young men. This is worse than the Trump safari articles (though it's pretty much the same thing, just at an alt-right conference in a city instead of a countryside diner). The author seems to have no idea what he's talking about, so he credulously repeats pretty much everything his subjects say as if he finds all of it mysterious and shocking, and the result very much borders on being a puff piece. I realize that's a mean way of putting it, but when a writer apparently thinks it's weird and unusual for conservatives to want to undo social and economic progress and revert to an idealized past, I'm not sure they're necessarily the right person to explain a political movement. On top of that, he appears to be completely unfamiliar with Peter Thiel's political history, and generally baffled by the idea that rich executives might not be the greatest supporters of freedom and democracy. And hell, when he got to the actual political candidate, he didn't exactly hold back on firing off softball questions, pretty much openly inviting these people to recruit his audience. quote:I asked if [Masters] could give me a vision of what he thought victory for his side would look like. quote:I’d asked Vance to tell me, on the record, what he’d like liberal Americans who thought that what he was proposing was a fascist takeover of America to understand.
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Jan 9, 2024 23:24
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koolkal posted:Someone's lying here. Turns out it was the goon Main Paineframe posted:Sorry, can you explain this in a little more detail? Because it looks like you're saying that leftists are saying that white men aren't allowed to have role models anymore, but I really have no idea how you're coming to that conclusion. It really feels like I'm missing something. This is true though. Back in the day videogames used to be like 99% white male protagonist heroes, nowadays it's way lower, maybe 80%. And once in a while they even throw a Female in there?  #LetWhiteMenBeHeroes
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Jan 9, 2024 23:29
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Heck Yes! Loam! posted:Are you asking me why judging a person for having a prison sentence in the past and someone currently being an rear end in a top hat is or should be different? I feel like it should be kind of obvious in that one of the hypothetical people is being an rear end in a top hat, and the other is just a person with a past. They’re both failures of our society. When young men fail to find place, purpose, and meaning in the culture they participate in they look for it elsewhere. Other groups offer it. Getting pulled into a gang or crime and drugs is the same process as being radicalized into terrorism or right wing extremism. These group offers young men who don’t have a place or who are failures membership and meaning and place, belonging. Drugs offer an escape from the lack of the same. The fascist right has set up pipelines to do this to young men. They understand how it works. People like Andrew Tate or Jorp or the Proud Boys tell young men who are failing, be like this and be like us and then offer community for them to participate in. The ways to bring them back are analogous to the ways we should but don’t reintegrate ex cons back into our society.
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Jan 9, 2024 23:31
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You need to give young men money, food, and jobs or else you're going to have a very big problem on your hands with one of those Andrew Tate types at the front of the mob. A lot of early developments in government were around giving things to young men and finding them things to do so that nothing bad happened to you.
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Jan 9, 2024 23:34
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Right and markets just can’t do it. Communities or governments have to do it. If it doesn’t happen it pushes things towards social revolution.
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Jan 9, 2024 23:37
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Tayter Swift posted:I wonder if he had cognitive function while he had the UTI. My grandfather had two UTIs in his waning months while had dementia and they absolutely wrecked him. I don't know if it has the same effect for those with full control of their brains however. One of the most common causes of delirium in older adults is infection, especially UTIs. As he's 70 that'd be a concern for clinicians, yeah.
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Jan 9, 2024 23:44
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Gumball Gumption posted:You need to give young men money, food, and jobs or else you're going to have a very big problem on your hands with one of those Andrew Tate types at the front of the mob. A lot of early developments in government were around giving things to young men and finding them things to do so that nothing bad happened to you. Are young white men actually having a serious shortage of money, food, and jobs right now compared to other groups? I'm asking this seriously. The median income for white people is $20k-$30k higher than the median income for black people, and the unemployment rate for white people is significantly lower than the unemployment rate for any other race (except Asians, whose unemployment rate is 0.1 points lower than the white unemployment rate). Blaming radicalization on material conditions makes for a convenient narrative that cleanly slots into a wide array of political belief systems, but it's worth checking into whether radicalization actually matches up with economic condition or not first. If economic suffering or poor material conditions were driving people to vote Republican, I'd expect black and Hispanic women to be leading the radical right-wing charge.
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Jan 9, 2024 23:48
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Tiny Timbs posted:Yeah this guy needs to resign and Biden needs to accept it. What an incredible failure of judgment. I know this is silly, but if someone wants to resign and their boss won't accept it, what happens? Are they stuck as an employee? Do they stay home or make themselves completely intolerable and force someone to fire them?
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Jan 9, 2024 23:49
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Bar Ran Dun posted:Right and markets just can’t do it. Communities or governments have to do it. If it doesn’t happen it pushes things towards social revolution. The fascist ratchet is fascists propose fake solutions to real problems. Then the problems don't get better, so they double down and there are even more subscribers to their false solutions. Conversely, socialist policies actually redress social grievances, which reduces societal tension, leading to lesser demand for further socialism . . .
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Jan 9, 2024 23:51
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Main Paineframe posted:Are young white men actually having a serious shortage of money, food, and jobs right now compared to other groups? Perceived lack of what is deserved or threat of things getting worse are also material conditions that lead to radicalization. You're not going to get an answers looking at the numbers that way since actual impoverishment is only part of it. My point is that "are young men buying into the establishment and why not?" is one of the oldest political questions to exist.
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Jan 9, 2024 23:53
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Nissin Cup Nudist posted:I know this is silly, but if someone wants to resign and their boss won't accept it, what happens? Are they stuck as an employee? Do they stay home or make themselves completely intolerable and force someone to fire them? In the US, you might have to pay a fine or some other penalty as part of your contract. If they actually try to force you, (barring very specific exemptions) that's a violation of the 13th amendment, and various other statutory violations (such as kidnapping). And RE: Median Income Talk, good luck convincing someone they are better off relative to others, when they are worse off, relative to themselves last year. 
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Jan 10, 2024 00:01
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Fluffs McCloud posted:Could you point to some examples of what I've bolded? I am, I will admit, fairly ignorant of popular culture. While I've certainly seen more mockery of white bro poo poo, I'm not familiar with it being blamed for everything? PT6A posted:What are you talking about, then? What evils, apart from those three things, are men, or specifically white men, or specifically young white men, being blamed for? Kagrenak posted:Where are you seeing this occur in mainstream discourse? Even when I see women venting on Twitter or Online Leftist spaces the worst of their ire is reserved for old white guys who do in fact uphold power structures. Outside of online spaces and certain kinds of leftists I don't think that this is a pervasive opinion or media narrative and even then, it's usually unserious venting. Just some examples of things I read and found interesting: White outrage about Will Smith’s slap is rooted in anti-Blackness. It’s inequality in plain sight Was this a justified response to a guest reacting violently to a joke? No, it was white men being mad because they are anti-black. Amanda Gorman’s Dutch translator stands down after uproar that Black writer wasn’t chosen This was after they were personally requested by Gorman. Rishi Sunak will be PM, but don’t get too excited: trickle-down diversity doesn’t work Even if a person belonging to a minority group manages to rise to the top, due to the whiteness of our society, it won't change a thing. In fact, the previous 'victim' is now seen as having associated too much with the 'perpetrator' so they will act the same and, as such, should be considered the same: an obstacle in the way of true progress. The Dangers of White Male Supremacy The title of the article seems reasonable, but then there are these quotes: quote:“I am not arguing that every white man is mediocre. I do not believe that any race or gender is predisposed to mediocrity. What I’m saying is that white male mediocrity is a baseline, the dominant narrative, and that everything in our society is centered around preserving white male power regardless of white male skill or talent. … The rewarding of white male mediocrity not only limits the drive and imagination of white men; it also requires forced limitations on the success of women and people of color in order to deliver on the promised white male supremacy. White male mediocrity harms us all.” quote:“This is not a benign mediocrity; it is brutal. It is a mediocrity that maintains a violent, sexist, racist status quo that robs our most promising of true greatness." In other words, not all men are mediocre, but the baseline for white men is mediocrity. Additionally, even if you are a non-mediocre white male, if you achieve any success, it's not because of your hard work or because you were ambitious or talented, but because everything in our society is centered around rewarding you for being white. If everything in our society is centered around preserving white male power, then, by definition, nothing can be centered around rewarding talent. And it's exactly because you are rewarded for being mediocre as a white male that minorities are failing to achieve the same success. I do understand that society promotes successful families to create successful generations and that, historically, those families tend to be white. But acknowledging that principle is something very different from attacking whiteness in itself and saying that our society is built around preserving white mediocrity. It is also alienating an entire class of working-class men who cannot at all relate to this. Admittedly, the source is a very leftist publication, but I thought the argument is especially interesting considering the following article. The Problem With Dropping Standards in the Name of Racial Equity The article talks specifically about Princeton dropping the Latin/Greek requirements for their Classics degree. Instead of offering to teach minorities and students from low-income families these languages (and we know Princeton can afford it), standards are lowered. Although the article says it is not, per Princeton's own website, this was in direct response to the urgency surrounding systemic racism. As the article states, this just enables further racism in multiple ways and devalues the degree for everyone else too. Besides, it sets a strange standard. Will we remove every requirement if it is deemed too hard for non-white people? Who even makes such a judgment? Also, just referring back to: quote:"This is not a benign mediocrity; it is brutal. It is a mediocrity that [...] robs our most promising of true greatness…" Ontario school board 'regrets' burning books in the name of reconciliation as part of educational program Something previously associated with Nazi Germany, now apparently something to erase the cultural (and racist) past of the West. You'd think preserving history, even if racist, would be a good thing as it can be an educational tool for the wrongdoings of our ancestors. Statue Of Winston Churchill Is Covered Up In London Of course, looking at our morals today Churchill was very much a racist, and everything he said would (rightfully so) not be accepted today. However, he still was a crucial leader who changed the course of history. I totally agree everyone should get the full picture of who Churchil was as ap erson, including that he was a racist. He should, however, not just be reduced to being merely a racist instead of the man who guided the UK through World War 2. The following is a quote on the website of a university from my home country: https://www.vub.be/en/about-vub/vub-university-future/world-needs-you/we-decolonize-vub-project-world-needs-you quote:The university, as a space and institution is built on white, male, heteronormative foundations and is a continuation of coloniality, it is therefore essential to deconstruct the so-called universality of Eurocentric knowledge and re-centralize different knowledge, knowledge productions, and pedagogies to address the imbalance of knowledge that sustains the university. The idea of a library - not to be confused with the university library - then, flows from this - the deconstruction of a Western-dominated worldview. The library offers both fiction and non-fiction books by racialized authors from all continents. We also organize events and have an online platform with interesting recommendations to provide students with knowledge and theories marginalized by the university. If the first sentence is true, then the university should just be shut down. As for the second part, I wonder how universities in Japan, South Africa, and Dubai would feel about having deconstructed their 'Asian', 'African', or 'Middle Eastern' dominated worldviews. There is a difference between having diversity in thinking and deconstructing your entire culture, history, and identity. Of course, these are just articles, I think it's the combination of media trends and real-life issues that has kids gravitating towards extremes. For example, as a working-class, white man, good luck finding scholarships to go to university. Another example are diversity hiring quota. I understand why they exist, but how are you going to tell someone they did not get the job because the quota had to be met and have them feel happy about that? Those things, in addition to the efforts to erase culture and history, is it any wonder young men gravitate towards communities that welcome them with open arms and claim to share the same frustrations, which then devolve into extremism? Once the 'us vs. them' mentality is established, it should be no surprise that young kids choose 'us' instead of 'them'. I agree that this is just as much (if not more) the fault of the extreme right, but denying opportunities, lowering standards, and attempting to erase a cultural and historical identity is not the way to create social progress through social cohesion. I hope I also made it clear that I think all of the articles above have good points/bring to light important issues that should be part of the conversations we have in our society. However, they go too far and attempt to ostracize and alienate white men, their history, and culture. Anything that is too white or even too closely affiliated therewith is bad and needs to be fought and erased, and that is just not helpful if we're looking at an inclusive society. PT6A posted:And how does this compare to Black men being portrayed as sexually aggressive and violent for... centuries? Yes, obviously that is definitely horrible and not conducive whatsoever to creating social cohesion. Some weird type of revenge-movement is not the way forward though.
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Jan 10, 2024 00:08
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Tnega posted:In regards to the previous two pages of Going to disagree here, there is stuff the left can do, or more specifically not do, that would help a lot. Inequality and differential preferences in dating markets which have always made it rough to be a 20s something dude not among the very most attractive being both hyper charged and more visible due to online dating and the internet more broadly does make the men on the losing end of that more vulnerable to extremism if they are given any push towards it , that's not really solvable, but you can make efforts not to push them toward extremism in the first place. Young white men in modern America grow up constantly hearing identity politics where both generally and specifically people are constantly talking about or providing material support specifically to minorities group [X], [Y], [Z] (or generally) or to women but white and usually asian men are consistently left out and constant left wing support for efforts to support everyone else but conspicuously not them soaks in. Then it's a question of whether the person who gets to that disaffection first comes with a center right message of "affirmative action / DEI is a form of racism, all racism is bad, the leftists being racist against you are bad but remember so are old school racists, you should vote against identity-politics Democrats and otherwise go about your life" or an extremist message of "hello I have this [racist] blogger / podcaster you should listen to and also this book by Nietzsche I pretend to have read and you should too, and also I and my favorite podcaster have terrible views about women which you will now be exposed to." That could be nipped in the bud to some extent by not planting the "the left at best doesn't care about young white (or Asian) men and at worst is actively hostile" seed in the first place.
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Jan 10, 2024 00:12
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This is a genuinely terrible poll result for Biden out of Michigan: https://twitter.com/Taniel/status/1744849021221400757
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Jan 10, 2024 00:14
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rkd_ posted:Just some examples of things I read and found interesting: I get a very strong impression you did not actually read any of those articles, since most of them have very little to do with the subject at hand, or don't say what you seem to think they are saying. A good example is the Dutch translator one, where you say that Amanda Gorman specifically asked for that specific translator. The articles specifically states that this wasn't the case. It says Amanda Gorman's team stands by the other person who chose the translator, but she did not choose the translator in question. That's a big enough difference in what the article says to call in question your reading of the articles. EDIT: Hell, the Ontario book-burning program was about reconcillation and the only reason there were regrets is that the person who ran the group that got the program going turned out to be a fraud. Your general thrust seems to be that white people are being criticized, even completely correctly, which is making young white people become extremists as a counterculture. Kchama fucked around with this message at 00:29 on Jan 10, 2024 |
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Jan 10, 2024 00:23
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Main Paineframe posted:I'd expect black and Hispanic women to be leading the radical right-wing charge. Ought and is. White men who are failures have an ought in their brains about who and what they should be in the culture that the other groups don’t. That’s why they’re the group that’s successful targeted. They have a lie they believe they want to make real.
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Jan 10, 2024 00:23
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Tnega posted:In the US, you might have to pay a fine or some other penalty as part of your contract. If they actually try to force you, (barring very specific exemptions) that's a violation of the 13th amendment, and various other statutory violations (such as kidnapping). That data ends two years ago when it was true that the real median income was down.
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Jan 10, 2024 00:26
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Tnega posted:And RE: Median Income Talk, good luck convincing someone they are better off relative to others, when they are worse off, relative to themselves last year.  ) but that's not the group that needs their "material conditions" improved to avoid turning into horrible chuds https://www.nber.org/system/files/working_papers/w31010/w31010.pdf#page=48
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Jan 10, 2024 00:27
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Kchama posted:I get a very strong impression you did not actually read any of those articles, since most of them have very little to do with the subject at hand, or don't say what you seem to think they are saying. A good example is the Dutch translator one, where you say that Amanda Gorman specifically asked for that specific translator. The articles specifically states that this wasn't the case. It says Amanda Gorman's team stands by the other person who chose the translator, but she did not choose the translator in question. That's a big enough difference in what the article says to call in question your reading of the articles. I read that Gorman chose the translator in the article as published by the Guardian: https://www.theguardian.com/books/2021/mar/01/amanda-gorman-white-translator-quits-marieke-lucas-rijneveld. The BBC and LA Times seem to indicate she didn't actively choose Rijnveld, but was very happy with the choice: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-56334369 and https://www.latimes.com/world-nation/story/2021-03-01/dutch-poet-declines-assignment-to-translate-gormans-works. I don't see how these articles have little to do with the 'subject at hand' when these are the types of articles that push young white men towards extremist groups.
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Jan 10, 2024 00:31
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rkd_ posted:I read that Gorman chose the translator in the article as published by the Guardian: https://www.theguardian.com/books/2021/mar/01/amanda-gorman-white-translator-quits-marieke-lucas-rijneveld. The BBC and LA Times seem to indicate she didn't actively choose Rijnveld, but was very happy with the choice: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-56334369 and https://www.latimes.com/world-nation/story/2021-03-01/dutch-poet-declines-assignment-to-translate-gormans-works. So is the answer 'don't criticize white people in public', then? Because if these are the kinds of articles that push young white men to extremist groups, then they were already headed to those extremist groups. It's interesting that we don't have to worry about young black men being pushed towards extremism or anything. Just young white men. Kchama fucked around with this message at 00:36 on Jan 10, 2024 |
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Jan 10, 2024 00:34
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12 years a lurker posted:That could be nipped in the bud to some extent by not planting the "the left at best doesn't care about young white (or Asian) men and at worst is actively hostile" seed in the first place. This is hilariously pulled almost verbatim from a point I planned to make, so GG. It's really easy to point to the results of young men trending conservative and ridicule them - "Angry incels, too dumb to bother with college, petulant about their entitlement of a fading power structure, gently caress them". Which leads to lost elections. It takes more critical thinking to imagine how to recruit them and even more to understand how to address them and by corollary make them want to join the left. I don't think all of these men are just pissed about cultural entitlement they never received, I think they're marginalized with miserable lives and they're told "You own the power structures, cry little babies, nobody cares". Sections of the left are absolutely hostile to men, and rightly so for some, but painting with that wide of a brush is repelling men with the potential to be influenced because a singular campaign plank of "gently caress you". What I would like, personally, is for the left to evolve into a more palatable cause for men that want to be heard and understood and not be the one group left out in the cold and be repeatedly told that nobody cares. Men kill themselves at higher rates and I think if we reached them with more lucidity than we have now, it would be an accidental benefit that they wouldn't be repulsed by a small subset of the left that hates them. I know this is getting MRA-adjacent, so just to be clear I'm 40 and have voted D since Kerry.
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Jan 10, 2024 01:05
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Heck Yes! Loam! posted:Oops it turns out it's majorly because society expects me to be decent human beings and most men just straight up say 'lol, nope.' Push El Burrito posted:The thing is, how can the left compete with the message "you're perfect and actually it's all the minorities and women who are the cause of all your problems". Posts like these are indicative of a big part of why you're losing the kids. You clearly have no idea what these people are saying and what their appeal actually is so of course there's no way to combat it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ha0juO-_NPA This is their king. He is not in any way shape or form telling them they are perfect or that they deserve anything. I don't know how to articulate his appeal. They don't want to be handed things, they want to face challenges, win or lose, but their current lives are alienated from. There are distinct problems in that, considering that we all are handed things, and that's part of what acknowledging privilege is about and why talking about it is so off putting to Tate fans. I am reminded that this isn't anything new... George Orwell's review of Mein Kampf posted:Whereas Socialism, and even capitalism in a more grudging way, have said to people ‘I offer you a good time,’ Hitler has said to them ‘I offer you struggle, danger and death,’ and as a result a whole nation flings itself at his feet. Perhaps later on they will get sick of it and change their minds, as at the end of the last war. After a few years of slaughter and starvation ‘Greatest happiness of the greatest number’ is a good slogan, but at this moment ‘Better an end with horror than a horror without end’ is a winner. Now that we are fighting against the man who coined it, we ought not to underrate its emotional appeal.”
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Jan 10, 2024 01:09
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Kchama posted:So is the answer 'don't criticize white people in public', then? Because if these are the kinds of articles that push young white men to extremist groups, then they were already headed to those extremist groups. I think the answer is don't use someone's 'whiteness' as a criterion or foundation for criticism but point out the behavior as being problematic, regardless of the person being white or not. Try to contextualize culture and history instead of erasing it. Some of these articles criticize white people as a collective or a system, which assumes that something is universally true for all (or most) white people that can be criticized which, imo, is pretty dangerous territory. The issue with the Rijnveld thing is that a talented, award-winning (non-binary) poet was forced to reject an offer to translate a poem the original black author was excited about having them translate, only because a group of people was offended that the translator was not 'black' but 'white'. So much for a poem that preaches 'unity and togetherness'. Just some lines from the poem: quote:So we lift our gazes not to what stands between us, but what stands before us. Yeah... Kchama posted:It's interesting that we don't have to worry about young black men being pushed towards extremism or anything. Just young white men. I sort of address this in my response to PT6A by saying that yes, that is also definitely an issue we must be paying attention to. History has shown us that repeated alienation and generalization leads to terrible societal consequences, including economic deprivation and violence. In fact, someone like Andrew Tate currently finds a lot his audience among Muslim teens in European countries who feel entirely disconnected from both the white population in the countries they grew up in as well as the countries their ancestors immigrated from. Sometimes, this even leads to an interest in religious extremism. It is a big issue, and those countries will need to find a way to create social cohesion between these different communities. Kchama posted:Hell, the Ontario book-burning program was about reconcillation and the only reason there were regrets is that the person who ran the group that got the program going turned out to be a fraud. That's kinda the point? They don't even see how the burning of books is wrong, only that the person who asked for it was a fraud. It was in the name of reconciliation, but the books were not just removed from the library or given their specific, informational section highlighting their problematic character. They were burned. These books also included biographies by the way, it was not just racist fiction.
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Jan 10, 2024 01:10
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