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So the standard text on contemporary fleet operations in the missile age, the latest edition starts with "btw none of this has been done before, so the best approach is to not get shot at in the first place" I know people prefer when these are transcribed or highlighted, but it's late, I apologize.    ...     
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Jan 11, 2024 04:26
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atelier morgan posted:germany is the heart of the european project, raised no objection to the us blowing up it's energy imports and is deindustrializing at a double digit percent rate Not with the current government, but they are also being crushed in polling and it isn’t a isolated trend. Europe is still trending fascist but the future is looking more like chaos than firm Atlanticism. The US is clearly slowing losing its grip in Europe.
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Jan 11, 2024 04:40
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Frosted Flake posted:The United States cannot permit its surface warships to become obsolete. woops Well, it’s probably enough to innovate in acquisition and contracting. The free market logically prevents obsolescence (Friedman, 2000). The Killing Jelq has issued a correction as of 04:48 on Jan 11, 2024 |
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Jan 11, 2024 04:45
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The Killing Jelq posted:woops Yeah, the concluding chapter stresses the need for America to continuously be building new ships an recruiting sailors so they can mass for defence: "As the previous sections show, the most important factor in assessing a fleet’s prospects is the number of ships. Many small ships offer more tactical flexibility. The smallest unit of disaggregation is a single ship. The Navy comprises significant numbers of large, highly capable ships, many of which have an area defense capability. It was more for defense than for offense that the American Navy sacrificed numbers for quality. For the past several decades, American battle fleets have had to defeat any surprise attack that the enemy might hurl, using sea room and a layered defense in depth—nowadays, first with F-18s and F-35s, then SAMs, and finally point defenses. At one time strong staying power was another important component, but it is only rarely so now."
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Jan 11, 2024 04:55
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Frosted Flake posted:So the standard text on contemporary fleet operations in the missile age, the latest edition starts with "btw none of this has been done before, so the best approach is to not get shot at in the first place" I love this part of Fleet Tactics and Naval Operations: Littoral Warfare: Measuring Performance In evaluating the designs of warships, American systems analysts almost invariably use deliverable combat potential as the principal criterion for making decisions about its characteristics. Since a large ship enjoys economies of scale, it will carry more fuel, ordnance, aircraft, or Marines than several smaller ships of the same total cost. The analytical conclusion is, therefore, “bigger is better.” The important disadvantage of a large, supposedly efficient ship is the hazard of putting many eggs in one basket. Indeed, the Beall, Humphrey, Schulte, and BuShips studies all reflect a diseconomy of scale. If a 60,000-ton ship carries twenty times the payload of a three-thousand-ton ship but can only take three or four times as many missile or torpedo hits as a small one before it is out of action, then that is a substantial disadvantage offsetting its greater payload. For ship procurement decisions a better analytical criterion than combat potential is: Maximize the net delivered combat power over the combat life of the ship. This takes into account the possibility that the ship will be incapacitated in the midst of fulfilling its mission. Several ships with complementary capabilities can be gathered into a task force tailored for a mission. Several ships of a single class can be operated together or with others in complementary combinations. For operational planning, the best criterion for evaluation is: Maximize the net delivered combat power over the effective life of the task force. ... If Trident submarines could be targeted, they would go down with many warheads—more than the number of nuclear weapons that would be expended to sink them. These huge submarines seem to have been designed on a cost-effective basis—that is, economies of scale drove the concentration of twenty-four missiles in each vessel, each missile armed with eight multiple independently targeted reentry vehicle warheads (MIRVs), without regard for the possibility that the submarines might be detectable someday. Had the designers factored even the remote possibility that these boats might be tracked at sea or else attacked in port or at dispersed harbors they would have distributed Trident missiles on more submarines, even though that would have been less expedient. ... Another reason is economies of scale. A large ship with three times the displacement of a small one will have three or more times the payload and probably cost only twice as much. Sometimes the ship must be big to carry and operate its payload; modern carrier aircraft illustrate. A large ship is also more comfortable for long cruises in many kinds of weather. In other words the US military inevitably trends towards fits of gigantism in the neoliberal era because the economies of scale from brotanks and brocarriers hit the ball out of the park against metrics that Congress loves whereas proposing a ton of good enough stuff that can be built and replaced in a timely manner do not make it past the cutting board because there's inevitably a price tag shock combined with poor fits against the metrics that Congress measures procurement by.
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Jan 11, 2024 05:02
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Danann posted:In other words the US military inevitably trends towards fits of gigantism in the neoliberal era because the economies of scale from brotanks and brocarriers hit the ball out of the park against metrics that Congress loves whereas proposing a ton of good enough stuff that can be built and replaced in a timely manner do not make it past the cutting board because there's inevitably a price tag shock combined with poor fits against the metrics that Congress measures procurement by. Yes, and because neoconservatism is the foreign policy wing of neoliberalism, the other blindspot Congress has creates a danger: "For ship procurement decisions a better analytical criterion than combat potential is: Maximize the net delivered combat power over the combat life of the ship. This takes into account the possibility that the ship will be incapacitated in the midst of fulfilling its mission. " Plan around America's enemies being able to run up a tally? I don't think so!
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Jan 11, 2024 05:15
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Our military planning is perfect. So long as the designated enemy is technologically 50 years behind us, deaf, dumb and blind. Ideally they will have never heard of the microchip.
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Jan 11, 2024 08:24
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my only dispute with the excerpt posted above is that the Turks were literally one day away from abandoning their fortresses along the Bosphorus under the RN's naval gunfire, and if the navy had kept up the bombardment for just a little while longer, the entire fiasco at Gallipoli might have been avoided "Castles of Steel" being my reference for this argument
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Jan 11, 2024 08:27
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Fell Mood posted:No, but Alpha Centauri did. It was the cost to mind control the remaining bases. I guess you could compare that to the cost for the US to buy the loyalty of the elite in every country. We've already got Europe. I wonder for how long.
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Jan 11, 2024 09:30
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I just don't get how we Europeans would fare better in Russian empire than the current American one. Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.
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Jan 11, 2024 11:20
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Fish of hemp posted:I just don't get how we Europeans would fare better in Russian empire than the current American one. The logo on your local hamburger fast food chain might look slightly different. Same menu. A cheeseburger is a cheeseburger.
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Jan 11, 2024 11:36
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DancingShade posted:The logo on your local hamburger fast food chain might look slightly different. Same menu. A cheeseburger is a cheeseburger. So we would still be vassal states to some nefarious cabal and forced to take part in all kinds of military adventures around to world?
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Jan 11, 2024 11:48
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Fish of hemp posted:So we would still be vassal states to some nefarious cabal and forced to take part in all kinds of military adventures around to world? Europe is just going to be a bunch of feuding states backed by the major competing powers, no one is going to fully own if anything because China, Russia, and India all have contrasting interests to a point and the US probably won't have zero influence (even if it is boiled down to the UK and Poland). Ardennes has issued a correction as of 12:31 on Jan 11, 2024 |
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Jan 11, 2024 11:55
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Ardennes posted:Europe is just going to be a bunch of feuding states backed by the competing powers This. What exactly does Europe have to offer the rest of the world when they have no industrial or technological edge? Don't say "financial products" because lol that's a ride coming to an end whether they like it or not. I suppose they can always export an enormous sense of entitlement to everyone else's stuff.
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Jan 11, 2024 12:00
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Fish of hemp posted:I just don't get how we Europeans would fare better in Russian empire than the current American one. OK, but that's not an argument for implementing the Morgenthau plan on yourself while rehabilitating the perpetrators of the holocaust to have less of the old USSR in the Russian sphere than otherwise. Seems there is actually a very strong preference for one over the other expressed here.
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Jan 11, 2024 12:03
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genericnick posted:OK, but that's not an argument for implementing the Morgenthau plan on yourself while rehabilitating the perpetrators of the holocaust to have less of the old USSR in the Russian sphere than otherwise. Seems there is actually a very strong preference for one over the other expressed here. OK, but you didn't tell me how Europe would fare better. Of course I'll support any one who will make life better.
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Jan 11, 2024 12:10
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are we assuming that both 'empires' are capitalist or something? Because the capitalist one will always be the worst system as its ran by the same tiny group of billionaires and will ultimately destroy everything around it including the planet because nothing matters except profit and there's no way to reign in excess, in fact excess is celebrated.
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Jan 11, 2024 12:13
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Fish of hemp posted:OK, but you didn't tell me how Europe would fare better. How Europe would fair better when what happens? The Russians march on Paris? Or what's the scenario here?
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Jan 11, 2024 12:20
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DancingShade posted:This. What exactly does Europe have to offer the rest of the world when they have no industrial or technological edge? booze and fancy bags
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Jan 11, 2024 12:32
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DancingShade posted:This. What exactly does Europe have to offer the rest of the world when they have no industrial or technological edge? Beyond tourism, I would say Europe is only really useful as 1. a market for Chinese goods, and 2. as a buffer zone for the Russians. The Russians ultimately don't have a desire to march to the Atlantic, but they do have an interest in having Eastern Europe under their influence, and China has a interest in having their products have free access. Eventually, there may be some push for protectionism against the Chinese, but I would assume that is when China will also just outright start buying governments that give them a problem. That said, China is interested in stable markets rather than simply looting, so it may actually be to the long-term benefit to some Europeans even if their future is going to be mostly producing luxury goods and taking tourist money so they can buy Chinese consumer products. Honestly, if the Russians can push out American influence, I think they would be mostly content to oversee their own local affairs. The Russians in reality can only push so far. Ardennes has issued a correction as of 13:06 on Jan 11, 2024 |
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Jan 11, 2024 12:38
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Fish of hemp posted:I just don't get how we Europeans would fare better in Russian empire than the current American one. The pro move is to join China and get Belt and Roaded on.
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Jan 11, 2024 12:57
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The Oldest Man posted:Speak of the Taiwanese nationalism myth-making devil and he shall appear https://twitter.com/rapplerdotcom/status/1745416621026374081
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Jan 11, 2024 13:11
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Fish of hemp posted:OK, but you didn't tell me how Europe would fare better. It's not that we'd fare better under a stronger Russia, it's that we'd fare better under a weaker US. The US only exports bad economic ideas that enrich the rich at the expense of others. Not that Russia would necessarily be any better but a weaker US means Europe would have to look elsewhere for economic ideas. The Chinese (and to an extent the Russian) mixed economy would inspire more wholesome economic planning. The US remaining the dominant interest demands that European elites looks no where else for ideas on how to develop our economies. Of course the European elites will never outright state they're taking inspiration from the Chinese mixed economy but as the US weakens that's where they'll start finally looking at. fanfic insert has issued a correction as of 13:56 on Jan 11, 2024 |
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Jan 11, 2024 13:53
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stephenthinkpad posted:It's just a conclusion I drew after reading up on Arab Spring, and follow the HK unrest closely in 19. There are just some deep cultural gaps between the Christianity civilization and the other civilization zones that make the NGO actions very hard to translate to a different civilization. This is an interesting idea. Feel like it should be studied more. There's probably more to it than just a cultural gap, though off the top of my head I'm not sure what. I
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Jan 11, 2024 13:56
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with dwindling resources, there's gonna be a loser it's gonna be europe
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Jan 11, 2024 14:50
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VoicesCanBe posted:This is an interesting idea. Feel like it should be studied more. Something I forgot to mentioned yesterday, the color revolution relies heavily on the Christian/Catholic NGO to do heavy lifting in Western Ukraine and the Eastern bloc areas. This is just something that doesn't work remotely as effective in other civilization regions. Not even in place like HK where a whole bunch of middle schools are named after Christian saints and the legal system is 90% British. The Cantonese just don't care about your Christian idea of god and freedom of speech and fighting authority, no matter how much you brain wash them with western ideas in middle school. These poo poo worked wonders to infiltrate the nongovernmental consensus in places like Poland before the collapse of Warsaw pack.
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Jan 11, 2024 15:08
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I mean, there was a pope, now a saint, who made it his life’s work to end communism in Poland. That didn’t help.
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Jan 11, 2024 15:19
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So have the Uighurs all been killed or whatever? seems like the flailing about genocide in China stopped so I guess it was successful.
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Jan 11, 2024 15:22
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Retromancer posted:So have the Uighurs all been killed or whatever? seems like the flailing about genocide in China stopped so I guess it was successful. Too many videos of life looking normal in Xinjiang.
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Jan 11, 2024 15:28
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1000 years ago Europe had wool and religious zealotry for export. What do they have now?
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Jan 11, 2024 15:28
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Retromancer posted:So have the Uighurs all been killed or whatever? seems like the flailing about genocide in China stopped so I guess it was successful. uyghur is too hard for americans to spell/pronounce. they're all in on the shen yun/falun gong psychotic bigot child-killing ufo cult now
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Jan 11, 2024 15:31
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Retromancer posted:So have the Uighurs all been killed or whatever? seems like the flailing about genocide in China stopped so I guess it was successful. sounds too much like "ukrainians" to american ears, everyone thinks it's russia doing it now
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Jan 11, 2024 15:34
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Retromancer posted:So have the Uighurs all been killed or whatever? seems like the flailing about genocide in China stopped so I guess it was successful. it's still being talked about in Japan, from what little I saw from NHK news. IIRC Australian media talks about it too. Makes sense that the "issue" is put on the back pocket in the west but is still fomented regionally for when the US needs to scream about it again.
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Jan 11, 2024 15:45
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Retromancer posted:So have the Uighurs all been killed or whatever? seems like the flailing about genocide in China stopped so I guess it was successful. it is not in  interests to bring up genocide as a thing that matters right now
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Jan 11, 2024 16:01
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Retromancer posted:So have the Uighurs all been killed or whatever? seems like the flailing about genocide in China stopped so I guess it was successful. The schools or whatever you want to call them are mostly shut down at this point, right? Like the whole thing is pretty much over. It'll be weird since it will never be "disproven" in the West. So the average American will spend the rest of time assuming that China killed hundreds of thousands of Uyghers and that we just can't somehow find any proof of it because the See See Pee is so good at hiding evidence. There's a very funny AP article from a couple of years ago that basically describes normal life in Xinjiang, but with a sinister overtone because of course it MUST be sinister.
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Jan 11, 2024 16:19
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Don't talk about all these muslim ethnic minorities, but this muslim ethnic minority is super important to you, here is why. Also the evil hans make them drink alcohol.
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Jan 11, 2024 16:20
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i don't think the us stopped lying because of a lack of evidence. that certainly never stopped them before. it's an uphill struggle to get americans worked up against non-whites being killed, plus they're muslim, plus it's fake. falun gong has similar problems and they'll probably gently caress off to their upstate new york rape compound once the cia money runs out
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Jan 11, 2024 16:25
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stephenthinkpad posted:Something I forgot to mentioned yesterday, the color revolution relies heavily on the Christian/Catholic NGO to do heavy lifting in Western Ukraine and the Eastern bloc areas. This is just something that doesn't work remotely as effective in other civilization regions. Not even in place like HK where a whole bunch of middle schools are named after Christian saints and the legal system is 90% British. The Cantonese just don't care about your Christian idea of god and freedom of speech and fighting authority, no matter how much you brain wash them with western ideas in middle school. These poo poo worked wonders to infiltrate the nongovernmental consensus in places like Poland before the collapse of Warsaw pack. You're probably right. I would argue there's a huge material component to it - the allure of a cushy, well-paying job with a western NGO is tempting. And that is a big motive for a lot of these NGO/color revolution educated liberals. But if it were only that, the strategy would be equally effective everywhere. As it stands, the color revolution playbook sees most of its successes in Eastern Europe. Religion likely plays a part in that. I'd also say the idea of a shared European identity also plays a role, which ties into religion as well. Of course, "shared European identity" very quickly spirals into racism. Another huge component of it.
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Jan 11, 2024 16:27
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VoicesCanBe posted:The schools or whatever you want to call them are mostly shut down at this point, right? Like the whole thing is pretty much over. there was a similar thing from the swedish public service broadcaster. they sent a reporter to xinjiang and they spoke to people being like "nah i got a job now things are looking up" and reported on a prison, and a factory and all very normal things and at the end they were like "but this chinese security police have been following us around documenting what we do so clearly they're very nervous about what we see, it's very insidious and clearly something is going on, because why on earth would they ever want to have documentation on what we, western journalists, did or saw." like the reporter literally says they saw no evidence of a genocide but the very presence of a chinese official meant they were hiding *something*
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Jan 11, 2024 16:37
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stephenthinkpad posted:Something I forgot to mentioned yesterday, the color revolution relies heavily on the Christian/Catholic NGO to do heavy lifting in Western Ukraine and the Eastern bloc areas. This is just something that doesn't work remotely as effective in other civilization regions. Not even in place like HK where a whole bunch of middle schools are named after Christian saints and the legal system is 90% British. The Cantonese just don't care about your Christian idea of god and freedom of speech and fighting authority, no matter how much you brain wash them with western ideas in middle school. These poo poo worked wonders to infiltrate the nongovernmental consensus in places like Poland before the collapse of Warsaw pack. I would say that outside the Western sphere there is simply more skepticism when the white devil appears and makes promises. It's also easier to convince people in Eastern Europe if you can point directly to the other side of the border and say: Look, you could have everything we have too.
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Jan 11, 2024 16:47
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