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Malloc Voidstar posted:Israel's response: South Africa, which is functioning as the legal arm of the Hamas terrorist organization, utterly distorted the reality in Gaza following the October 7 massacre and completely ignored the fact that Hamas terrorists infiltrated Israel, murdered, executed, massacred, raped and abducted Israeli citizens, simply because they were Israelis, in an attempt to carry out genocide. So they're not denying anything, just going with they're allowed to do anything they want because Hamas also did bad things. That's some kind of strategy.
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Jan 11, 2024 15:31
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It's a piss poor defense on its own but South Africa already laid out in their argument that this didn't begin on October 7 and there's been a history of subjugation and apartheid.
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Jan 11, 2024 15:33
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What do ICJ proceedings mean? Can criminal charges be brought against Israeli leaders? Does the U.S. hold its magical veto power over the verdict?
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Jan 11, 2024 15:42
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PostNouveau posted:What do ICJ proceedings mean? Can criminal charges be brought against Israeli leaders? Does the U.S. hold its magical veto power over the verdict? The NATO countries, which bullied everyone into disallowing Putin to go places on the basis of an international court proceeding, will now say the same courts dont matter and will allow netanyahu to go anywhere
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Jan 11, 2024 15:52
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PostNouveau posted:What do ICJ proceedings mean? Can criminal charges be brought against Israeli leaders? Does the U.S. hold its magical veto power over the verdict?
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Jan 11, 2024 15:57
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Irony Be My Shield posted:According to my understanding: it's a legal rather than a political body so no state will have a say in the outcome, just the judges. This will be a preliminary verdict in which the ICJ can issue an injunction for Israel to stop its offensive which is theoretically binding but in practice unenforceable (see: its injunction for Russia to stop its Ukraine invasion in March 2022). A full verdict on whether genocide has actually occured generally takes many years to reach. It has no power to bring charges against individuals - the ICC is the one that made it hard for Putin to travel around, not the ICJ. It's great someone is making the case, but disappointing to hear that individual charges aren't possible.
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Jan 11, 2024 16:18
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As cynical as I am I found this powerful https://twitter.com/michaelmagee__/status/1745451576016179469?t=kSkpTmQw7ATd2YU8awgGyg&s=19
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Jan 11, 2024 16:29
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Irony Be My Shield posted:According to my understanding: it's a legal rather than a political body so no state will have a say in the outcome, just the judges. This will be a preliminary verdict in which the ICJ can issue an injunction for Israel to stop its offensive which is theoretically binding but in practice unenforceable (see: its injunction for Russia to stop its Ukraine invasion in March 2022). A full verdict on whether genocide has actually occured generally takes many years to reach. It has no power to bring charges against individuals - the ICC is the one that made it hard for Putin to travel around, not the ICJ. The judges are selected based on the permanently UN security council + 10 other countries. You can game things out based on the countries which have judges in the body. https://www.icj-cij.org/current-members .
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Jan 11, 2024 16:31
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Malloc Voidstar posted:Israel's response: South Africa, which is functioning as the legal arm of the Hamas terrorist organization, utterly distorted the reality in Gaza following the October 7 massacre and completely ignored the fact that Hamas terrorists infiltrated Israel, murdered, executed, massacred, raped and abducted Israeli citizens, simply because they were Israelis, in an attempt to carry out genocide. For an organization that exists within an open air concentration camp, HAMAS has incredible international presence according to Israel. They control the UN, Doctors Without Borders, South Africa, major western media orgs. Incredible for a group that has to routinely use piss fueled rockets
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Jan 11, 2024 16:31
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PostNouveau posted:What do ICJ proceedings mean? Can criminal charges be brought against Israeli leaders? Does the U.S. hold its magical veto power over the verdict? Given the track record, as others said, basically nothing. It’s also a crapshoot on getting the verdict you want. They decided that Srebrenica wasn’t like a real genocide just genocide adjacent. There’s been cases from Africa where the initial ruling got overturned on appeal. They’ve had no impact on the genocide of the Rohingya, they told Myanmar to stop doing a genocide, and Myanmar just continued on. Don’t be surprised if they rule it not a genocide on some technicality.
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Jan 11, 2024 16:32
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What's important about the ICJ case, even as it exists so far, is that South Africa has now produced an incredibly clear and thorough compilation of Israel's crimes against humanity. This is what our kids will judge us by. International law is at a flashpoint no matter which way the court rules. If SA loses the case, they've proven that the UN is an organization with no purpose and no legitimacy. If they win, it becomes much harder for the West to keep stuffing their hands in their ears and acting like nothing's wrong. E: I've also seen a lot of Palestinians claiming that this is the first time they've ever seen their voice represented by a mainstream institution.
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Jan 11, 2024 16:55
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Darth Walrus posted:An excellent summary from a guy who decided to livetweet it, if you prefer text: And as it appears Israel is just going to base their argument around snuff film propaganda pieces they’ve made, they are just going to say that it’s our right to do this no matter what.
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Jan 11, 2024 17:02
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Darth Walrus posted:An excellent summary from a guy who decided to livetweet it, if you prefer text: This was very good, thank you.
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Jan 11, 2024 17:12
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Failed Imagineer posted:As cynical as I am I found this powerful Hey I actually know this lawyer and have worked with them! Awesome!
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Jan 11, 2024 17:14
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Necrothatcher posted:Hey I actually know this lawyer and have worked with them! Awesome! Very cool!
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Jan 11, 2024 17:19
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The Israeli government/media just proving South Africa’s point today in their completely unhinged responses to the accusations
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Jan 11, 2024 17:48
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Appreciate South Africa pointing out that Israel has no right to self defense under international law when it comes to Gaza and the West Bank as they're the occupying power.
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Jan 11, 2024 17:49
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Dr. VooDoo posted:For an organization that exists within an open air concentration camp, HAMAS has incredible international presence according to Israel. They control the UN, Doctors Without Borders, South Africa, major western media orgs. Incredible for a group that has to routinely use piss fueled rockets Oh you didn't know that Hamas is incredibly rich and has ALL the money in the world it gets from the far left aid and refuses to spend on anything BUT piss fueled rockets? Or that is what I'm told.
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Jan 11, 2024 19:48
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Necrothatcher posted:Hey I actually know this lawyer and have worked with them! Awesome! That rules as much as your amazing av of yourself.
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Jan 11, 2024 23:02
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ummel posted:The point of my dumb post is that there's a lot to be upset about. Don't subject yourself to dumb TikTok rage bait, imo. The Sean posted:Otoh, one significant resource for understanding past conflicts in history, and the actors in them, is communications between eachother. Letters between soldiers or their families for instance. We now get to see what these people are thinking in real time. Extra value when they openly admit they're doing war crimes. Coming back to this. Now their social media posts are being brought up in international court. poo poo matters.
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Jan 11, 2024 23:22
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Judging by the social media I’ve ill-advisedly read, the gambit shall be: “what about the genocide of white farmers that I imagined is happening, South Africa??? What about that, eh???”
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Jan 11, 2024 23:59
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Well, the US has decided to provide some big-boom distractions by bombing Yemen. Utterly stupid, reckless stuff.
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Jan 12, 2024 01:43
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Disappointing to see the US directly taking a role in a conflict only when money is hurt. Would have been cheaper to tell Israel to STFU and sit down rather than invade and you could have saved 1 bajillion dollars in deployed assets and expended ordinance E: Even worse, the US having to spend all this money over a loose definition of an ally nuking global trade routes.
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Jan 12, 2024 02:41
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Dunite posted:Disappointing to see the US directly taking a role in a conflict only when money is hurt.
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Jan 12, 2024 03:27
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I just feel like Hamas would have been a lot more sensible if they'd used their fathomless wealth and unmatched global influence to do something that aids them in fighting Israel rather than subverting the distant country of the Republic of South Africa so that they can make a very coherent, but in practical terms almost certainly ineffective, case in an international body that Israel can simply ignore.
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Jan 12, 2024 04:11
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Hong XiuQuan posted:Well, the US has decided to provide some big-boom distractions by bombing Yemen. Considering they're bombing targets of the Houthi's, who have attacked civilians and civilian ships (and were repeatedly warned not to), this response is entirely justified.
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Jan 12, 2024 06:23
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ASIC v Danny Bro posted:Considering they're bombing targets of the Houthi's, who have attacked civilians and civilian ships (and were repeatedly warned not to), this response is entirely justified.
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Jan 12, 2024 06:28
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ASIC v Danny Bro posted:Considering they're bombing targets of the Houthi's, who have attacked civilians and civilian ships (and were repeatedly warned not to), this response is entirely justified. The Houthis are operating under the responsibility to protect. They're being bombed for daring to attempt to disrupt an ongoing genocide but the allies of the terror state executing the genocide. This has nothing to do with "civilians" (or do Palestinians not count as civilians?). It's an unjust and deeply evil assault in service of a genocide.
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Jan 12, 2024 06:42
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Pentecoastal Elites posted:The Houthis are operating under the responsibility to protect. They're being bombed for daring to attempt to disrupt an ongoing genocide but the allies of the terror state executing the genocide. This has nothing to do with "civilians" (or do Palestinians not count as civilians?). It's an unjust and deeply evil assault in service of a genocide. "This has nothing to do with civilians" who do you think have been manning the ships they've been targeting and kidnapping? Were they operating under the responsibility to protect when they were doing this?: https://www.arabnews.com/node/2435691/middle-east https://www.thenationalnews.com/gulf-news/2022/08/10/yemens-houthi-rebels-admit-kidnapping-more-than-2800-civilians-in-past-year/ https://www.arabnews.com/node/2301121/middle-east ASIC v Danny Bro fucked around with this message at 06:51 on Jan 12, 2024 |
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Jan 12, 2024 06:49
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ASIC v Danny Bro posted:"This has nothing to do with civilians" who do you think have been manning the ships they've been targeting and kidnapping? Are there no Palestinian civilians? Do they need to be on a boat to be civilians?
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Jan 12, 2024 06:52
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Pentecoastal Elites posted:Are there no Palestinian civilians? Do they need to be on a boat to be civilians? Of course there are Palestinian civilians. Can you at least accept that the Houthi's have been targeting civilians in their own country for kidnapping, torture, false imprisonment and murder, as well as civilians on civilian ships? These are not people who operate under a responsibility to protect.
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Jan 12, 2024 07:09
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I do feel there's been an over-lionization of the Houthis and their actions in the past month. I also feel bombing Yemen was an unjustifiable escalation of the conflict that should have ended months ago. These are not mutually exclusive
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Jan 12, 2024 07:28
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It's easy to lionize Ansarallah when you look at the groups they are opposing. For example, if we're talking about kidnapping civilians being something to condemn: quote:As of November 1, Israeli authorities held nearly 7,000 Palestinians from the occupied territory in detention for alleged security offenses, according to the Israeli human rights organization HaMoked. Far more Palestinians have been arrested since the October 7 attacks in Israel than have been released in the last week. Among those being held are dozens of women and scores of children. From here.
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Jan 12, 2024 07:58
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I'd argue that there have been moments where plenty of people in here have been happy about US actions, despite the US being responsible for a plethora of atrocities past and present. I would make the case that the same can apply to the Houthis: you don't have to approve of their antagonism towards Jewish Yemeni nor their methods of consolidating power, to approve of their decision to blockade Israel-affiliated ships under international Genocide Prevention acts, nor their resillience against Saudi and USA bombing.
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Jan 12, 2024 07:59
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DarklyDreaming posted:I do feel there's been an over-lionization of the Houthis and their actions in the past month. I also feel bombing Yemen was an unjustifiable escalation of the conflict that should have ended months ago. These are not mutually exclusive I agree that they're not mutually exclusive, though the targets that were hit in Yemen were Houthi targets. And to harp on again, they were warned repeatedly to cease attacks on civilian vessels, both in statements from governments and at the UN security council. Military responses for their actions against civilian vessels and crew are entirely their own responsibility. If they didn't want to be bombed, they should have not targeted those vessels. Hell, some of those vessels weren't even bound for Israeli ports as their end point! So I'm not entirely certain how their excuse of "being Israeli ships" could fly. Neurolimal posted:I would make the case that the same can apply to the Houthis: you don't have to approve of their antagonism towards Jewish Yemeni nor their methods of consolidating power, to approve of their decision to blockade Israel-affiliated ships under international Genocide Prevention acts, nor their resillience against Saudi and USA bombing. How does the Houthi's kidnapping sailors from ships fit into this? ASIC v Danny Bro fucked around with this message at 08:09 on Jan 12, 2024 |
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Jan 12, 2024 08:02
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Is there a list of justifications for individual attacks? The Wikipedia articles dont always replicate claims. What is the link between Israel and the Maersk Hangzhou?
piL fucked around with this message at 08:13 on Jan 12, 2024 |
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Jan 12, 2024 08:11
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piL posted:Is there a list of justifications for individual attacks? The Wikipedia articles dont always replicate claims. What is the link between Israel and the Maersk Hangzhou? This would probably be a good start: https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news...bc-5dff7a430000 Considering a fair few of them were neither connected to Israel or dropping/receiving cargo from an Israeli port, the Houthis need to do their homework better. Edit: for below response, we'd probably have to researching individual stories for each attack (the full story links are... crap all). At least now we've got the vessel names, the date of the attacks, port of departure, port of destination and some ownership details. From there, we can build in Houthi representative responses and reasons for their attacks, articles written at the time, and government responses. Second edit: actually, there's a few articles that don't link to the main one; they relate to the following vessels: -HMS Diamond -Galaxy Leader -Languedoc -USS Laboon -Swan Atlantic -MSC Clara -Unity Explorer -Maersk Gibraltar -Blaamanen -Palatium III -Sai Baba -Strinda -Ardmore Encounter -Uss Carney -Central Park -An unknown vessel -Chem Pluto -CMA CGM Symi Were the links not working depending on the browser we were using? Just note, some of those links are paywalled. ASIC v Danny Bro fucked around with this message at 08:51 on Jan 12, 2024 |
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Jan 12, 2024 08:29
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ASIC v Danny Bro posted:This would probably be a good start: I looked at a few of the links. I had assumed that the Houthis would at least claim some connection, whether accurate or not. I dont really see their claims, if any, being listed in the articles linked on that map.
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Jan 12, 2024 08:36
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piL posted:I looked at a few of the links. I had assumed that the Houthis would at least claim some connection, whether accurate or not. I dont really see their claims, if any, being listed in the articles linked on that map. The Houthis simply claim the crew are also Israelis. No proof in the form of passports or anything but it's enough for their supporters. https://nitter.net/AJArabic/status/1726267687528177775 quote:#Urgent | A leader in the Ansar Allah group #Houthis to Al Jazeera: Preliminary investigations indicate that Israelis of other nationalities were on board the ship
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Jan 12, 2024 09:14
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