|
RoboChrist 9000 posted:Yeah. Anything Biden does is ipso facto illegitimate because he is not the president. Right. Legally speaking, Trump could be imprisoned and facing the death penalty for shooting a man on 5th avenue just to watch him die, and remain president. Practically speaking, if convicted of a federal crime, he could at least arguably pardon himself -- it would be obviously corrupt but would likely "work" well enough to get him out of jail in the short term at least for the duration of his presidency. A state conviction would be harder to avoid BUT there is a strong constitutional argument that an individual State cannot imprison the federal president without impermissibly interfering with the operation of the federal government, which again, probably a strong enough argument with the current Supreme Court to get him out of jail at least till his term ends.
|
#
?
Jan 12, 2024 14:18
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 6, 2024 10:05 |
|
|
At that point I have to assume there's an irreversible acceleration of the American cultural schism that leads to a complete shitshow. Or y'know, America changes the channel to catch the latest masterpiece from Chuck Lorre
|
|
#
?
Jan 12, 2024 14:23
|
|
|
M.c.P posted:Something something Biden’s not really president, I’m the best president, the only president ever really… Y'know, I'll take some cringe-worthy responses if it means he spends the rest of his miserable existence jumping at shadows.
|
|
#
?
Jan 12, 2024 14:30
|
|
|
Hieronymous Alloy posted:A state conviction would be harder to avoid BUT there is a strong constitutional argument that an individual State cannot imprison the federal president without impermissibly interfering with the operation of the federal government, which again, probably a strong enough argument with the current Supreme Court to get him out of jail at least till his term ends. Yeah as states being able to jail presidents could cause obvious issues. I assume the likely outcome would just be postponing the jail time until after their term(s?) ended. Can just imagine a president skipping the inauguration of the next president and making sure their in another country by the time the next pres is sworn in. Can't really stop them at airport security when their flying airforce one. Wait do world leaders use passports? I can't imagine the US president being refused entry to a country because a Staffer forgot to pack it. Edit: Maybe in Germany. dr_rat fucked around with this message at 14:34 on Jan 12, 2024 |
|
#
?
Jan 12, 2024 14:32
|
|
|
dr_rat posted:Yeah as states being able to jail presidents could cause obvious issues. I assume the likely outcome would just be postponing the jail time until after their term(s?) ended. The president has a diplomatic passport with a special "the bearer of this passport is the president" endorsement. I assume someday Nic Cage will play a character who steals it so that he can legally sign some legislation or something.
|
|
#
?
Jan 12, 2024 14:42
|
|
|
Failed Imagineer posted:At that point I have to assume there's an irreversible acceleration of the American cultural schism that leads to a complete shitshow. Youngest Sheldon
|
|
#
?
Jan 12, 2024 14:42
|
|
|
raminasi posted:The president has a diplomatic passport with a special "the bearer of this passport is the president" endorsement. I assume someday Nic Cage will play a character who steals it so that he can legally sign some legislation or something. A national treasure type movie where Cage steal the passport and starts country hoping on it, pretending to be the US president at every border would be amazing. While being chased by the actual -very furious- president and their entourage who the boarder guards never believe because they don't have the passport would be amazing.
|
|
#
?
Jan 12, 2024 14:50
|
|
|
Main Paineframe posted:Contempt is very much a last resort, not a first resort. The power to arbitrarily jail someone indefinitely is one that should be exercised very rarely and very carefully, even if you hate the target and feel like they don't deserve due process. *Terms and conditions may vary, confirm with your lawyer if being white and wealthy is right for you before attempting contempt. Do not use contempt if you are currently suffering from any of the following conditions: public defender, own or rent only a single home, charged in any court of the land but have no IMDB page, parents cannot trace lineage back to Mayflower, you’re black, you’re Latino, you’re anything not white as hell honestly, please check the 2024 manual for what white is, notice that whiteness alone may not qualify you for using contempt; please check with your legal representative on if the judge has had lunch yet, do not use contempt if you have previously been identified as poor
|
|
#
?
Jan 12, 2024 14:52
|
|
|
dr_rat posted:A national treasure type movie where Cage steal the passport and starts country hoping on it, pretending to be the US president at every border would be amazing. While being chased by the actual -very furious- president and their entourage who the boarder guards never believe because they don't have the passport would be amazing. This is the crossover of the National Treasure and Face/Off Universes that I never knew I needed
|
|
#
?
Jan 12, 2024 15:00
|
|
|
raminasi posted:The president has a diplomatic passport with a special "the bearer of this passport is the president" endorsement. I assume someday Nic Cage will play a character who steals it so that he can legally sign some legislation or something. I think this is the plot of Metal Wolf Chaos except the it's with a presidential battle mech instead of a passport.
|
|
#
?
Jan 12, 2024 15:33
|
|
|
Can someone show me a good path forward here where we don’t end this year with Trump as president? I just don’t see the Supreme Court doing the right thing and his supporters don’t care about crimes.
|
|
#
?
Jan 12, 2024 15:48
|
|
|
Pillowpants posted:Can someone show me a good path forward here where we don’t end this year with Trump as president? I just don’t see the Supreme Court doing the right thing and his supporters don’t care about crimes. It's a bit early for despair. I think it fairly likely the Court ratifies his criminal prosecution. I'm more worried about chuds on his jury than I am about the Supreme Court suddenly deciding crime is ok. And I think once actually convicted a lot of his remaining support will drop. Especially since he won't be able to campaign from inside prison.
|
|
#
?
Jan 12, 2024 15:53
|
|
|
Pillowpants posted:Can someone show me a good path forward here where we don’t end this year with Trump as president? I just don’t see the Supreme Court doing the right thing and his supporters don’t care about crimes. Well, I can assure you that Trump will not be president come Dec 31 under any circumstance, even the most favorable to him!
|
|
#
?
Jan 12, 2024 15:55
|
|
|
Pillowpants posted:Can someone show me a good path forward here where we don’t end this year with Trump as president? I just don’t see the Supreme Court doing the right thing and his supporters don’t care about crimes. You know when Barak Obama in 2012 was polling ten points behind a generic repbulican. And then the American public met all of the Republicans and picked the least objectional and lost. This is where we are right now. Taking aside the predictive power of polls 300 days before an election, what we have here is people going oh yah, I'd vote Republican if all things were equal right now. But all things aren't equal. 1) Biden isn't campanging. 2) The Republican Primary isn't "over." 3) The media isn't really covering the race. Trump lost the popular vote twice, with a widening gap. Democrats are outperforming polls and not by a little, by a lot. That doesn't mean that Biden doesn't need to campaign or that it's in the bag but you have to consider that people don't pay attention until September.
|
|
#
?
Jan 12, 2024 16:34
|
|
|
FLIPADELPHIA posted:So let me preface this by admitting "the US is going to fall just like Rome!" is one of the most boring, overplayed, bullshit proclamations ever- and is especially popular amongst the chuds, who usually mean it in a "Rome and the US were once moral and pure and fell / is falling due to degeneracy / gay people" kind of way. I definitely acknowledge that and it's infuriating to come across. That being said, I think there is an interesting comparison to be made between the reliance on social / political norms as a check against personal ambition in Republican Rome and the US. Both governments were rather obvious attempts to constrain the ability of one person to assume total control of the state, but the actual mechanisms to prevent such an occurrence are both largely informal - for example the soft prohibition on Presidents not running for 3rd terms. That was a powerful informal rule that remained in place for over a century and we have actual historical evidence to suggest the norm did dissuade multiple men from running for a 3rd term, even when it would be perfectly legal for them to do so. Yeah very reasonable, my thinking however is that I think *all* governments, and certainly all empires have varying degrees of some kind of social contact, a sort of flexible space not covered by explicit rules or rule making authorities where instead things are done according to patronage, norms, and reciprocity. To take Japan as an example you have all of these social norms, for example as most people who've seen anime are familiar with the hierarchy of the junior-senior dynamic. There's no law that lays this down, but on some level it affects a lot of Japanese society, and probably (I don't know for sure, but I got a sense for it from Sakai's book) moreso during WW2 or during the Meiji era. When those junior Japanese army officers tried that first coup incident and resorted to political assassination that's a lot of norms being broken in addition to laws and Japan was basically never the same until the end of WW2. Also of course the aftermatch of disasters like the Great Kanto earthquake bringing an end to the Taisho democracy. My point basically is I don't think its super unique to the US the idea of informal social arrangements that have a binding effect on day to day governance, and their erosion causing an accumulation of authoritarian power is likewise probably not unique to the US either.
|
|
#
?
Jan 12, 2024 16:37
|
|
|
Nitrousoxide posted:Well, I can assure you that Trump will not be president come Dec 31 under any circumstance, even the most favorable to him! I appreciate you calming our nerves in these tumultuous times.
|
|
#
?
Jan 12, 2024 17:37
|
|
|
Main Paineframe posted:The reason they aren't throwing Trump in jail for contempt isn't because they're scared of his base. It's because he's well within his rights to make unlikely legal arguments and whine about the trial on Twitter. This should be stickied to the OP. Randalor posted:I'm just wondering why no one has directly asked Trump, to his face, "You understand that if you have full immunity, including being allowed to kill your political rivals, that Biden does as well?" … The Republican mantra: “I can do whatever I want. You have to comply. You can’t do anything about it. You cannot tell me what to do, ever. If you try, or do not comply with what I want, I can kill you”
|
|
#
?
Jan 12, 2024 17:38
|
|
|
Joe Biden leverages court rulings meant to protect Trump as justification to commit every crime possible to prevent Republicans from getting elected right before pardoning himself and resigning before impeachment proceedings. We get President Harris. Oh wait you said good path. Pillowpants posted:Can someone show me a good path forward here where we don’t end this year with Trump as president? I just don’t see the Supreme Court doing the right thing and his supporters don’t care about crimes.
|
|
#
?
Jan 12, 2024 17:53
|
|
|
The prognosticators are all guessing. Everything at this time is guessing. We are in an unprecedented moment in history, and there is no telling how much crazier it could get. We have been in the so-called "cool zone" for pretty much the last few years.
|
|
#
?
Jan 12, 2024 17:56
|
|
|
Largeguy posted:Joe Biden leverages court rulings meant to protect Trump as justification to commit every crime possible to prevent Republicans from getting elected right before pardoning himself and resigning before impeachment proceedings. We get President Harris. The joke is that the president elect from the 2024 election will still not be president on December 31st, Pillowpants worded his hypothetical poorly
|
|
#
?
Jan 12, 2024 18:00
|
|
|
Mooseontheloose posted:You know when Barak Obama in 2012 was polling ten points behind a generic repbulican. And then the American public met all of the Republicans and picked the least objectional and lost. It can't be overstated how much of a difference there is between a hypothetical Trump nomination and an actual Trump nomination. Right now everyone is free to imagine whatever method of sanity exerting itself upon the Republican Party they want. Trump loses, he's disqualified, he gets stuck in a McDonald's bathroom and misses the convention, Republicans realize that actually he's a bad guy, whatever you like that explains how a theoretically sane and reasonable candidate is facing off against Brandon. All of that is out the window when Trump is the nominee and you can't pretend it'll all go away on it's own. At that point Joe Biden is definitively contrasted against they guy you hate who is using the campaign slogan, "Dictator on Day 1". So not only is the entire Democratic Party whispering sweet nothings in you ear about how good the next term will totally be, all of MAGAland are screaming about how they're going to gently caress you, in particular, over in an orgy of blood and vengeance. Then on top of that we'll likely be getting court verdicts throughout the year declaring Trump to be new varieties of Legally A Piece Of poo poo.
|
|
#
?
Jan 12, 2024 18:15
|
|
|
Randalor posted:I'm just wondering why no one has directly asked Trump, to his face, "You understand that if you have full immunity, including being allowed to kill your political rivals, that Biden does as well?" It always seems to be people asking lawyers or legal experts, but it see,smloke no one has asked Trump himself. biden hates america in his heart therefore anything he does is badong and illegitimate. what's that? "you can't measure what's in someone's heart so that's a terrible matrix to use"? sounds like someone hates america in their heart
|
|
#
?
Jan 12, 2024 18:23
|
|
|
Largeguy posted:Joe Biden leverages court rulings meant to protect Trump as justification to commit every crime possible I suppose if Trump is the Scheherazade of Crime then Biden could be President Macavity and break every human law.
|
|
#
?
Jan 12, 2024 19:40
|
|
|
Trump ordered to pay New York Times nearly $400k in legal fees for ‘frivolous’ lawsuitquote:A judge in New York has ordered Donald Trump to fork over nearly $400,000 in legal fees underpinning a now-dismissed lawsuit he brought against the newspaper and a trio of its reporters when they published a bombshell series of reports on his history of tax schemes and “riches” reaped from his father.
|
|
#
?
Jan 12, 2024 21:16
|
|
|
Ulf posted:break every human law. In a cell in somewhere in New York, Sam Bankman-Fried stirs.
|
|
#
?
Jan 12, 2024 21:22
|
|
|
“the senior vice president for external communications” Seems like a good gig.
|
|
#
?
Jan 12, 2024 21:59
|
|
|
It's almost like conservatism consists of exactly one proposition, to wit: There must be in-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect. But probably nobody has noticed that before.....
|
|
#
?
Jan 12, 2024 22:19
|
|
|
Could we all try to do a better job of keeping this thread on topic and informative? Thanks.selec posted:*Terms and conditions may vary, confirm with your lawyer if being white and wealthy is right for you before attempting contempt. Do not use contempt if you are currently suffering from any of the following conditions: public defender, own or rent only a single home, charged in any court of the land but have no IMDB page, parents cannot trace lineage back to Mayflower, you’re black, you’re Latino, you’re anything not white as hell honestly, please check the 2024 manual for what white is, notice that whiteness alone may not qualify you for using contempt; please check with your legal representative on if the judge has had lunch yet, do not use contempt if you have previously been identified as poor In FY2016 (the last year that I could find that Justice broke out "other public order" offenses) US Attorneys opened 294 cases investigating "perjury, contempt, or intimidation", 0.2% of cases opened.* In the same year (not necessarily same cases), there were 248 convictions in 293 cases and 218 of those were pleas - more were dismissed (37) than convicted in a trial (30). There were 143 federal incarcerations for "perjury, contempt, or intimidation" in FY2016, 0.27% of all federal incarcerations that year. The idea that judges are treating Trump with kid gloves on contempt compared to the overwhelming majority of federal defendants is unsupported. Has someone, somewhere, been imprisoned for contempt by a Federal Judge for less than Trump's done? Probably, because our criminal justice system is a loving nightmare. Problem is the concept of special treatment loses meaning when the definition is stretched to include not receiving an extraordinarily uncommon punishment- or, on the topic of gags, receiving an extremely rare restriction that is still more permissive than you would like. *in addition to age, the figures above aren't ideal because they class by most serious offense. That's somewhat mitigated given that the calls ITT are for a contempt conviction and imprisonment prior to the trial Main Paineframe posted:The reason they aren't throwing Trump in jail for contempt isn't because they're scared of his base. It's because he's well within his rights to make unlikely legal arguments and whine about the trial on Twitter. fake edit: Deteriorata posted:Trump ordered to pay New York Times nearly $400k in legal fees for ‘frivolous’ lawsuit I see Deteriorata beat me to what I'd actually intended to post. The legal fees are relatively minor compared to another instance of the law working as intended. Trump has relied on empty legal threats (including obviously unenforceable clauses in contracts) to smother reporting, dissent, and investigation for years. He does this because he (like Harder, his favorite Thiel-backed attorney) understands that the process is the punishment. Anti-SLAPP laws like these serve to shorten the process (allowing earlier dismissal that avoids a lot of opportunity for legal harassment) and make it easier for defendants to find representation.
|
|
#
?
Jan 12, 2024 22:29
|
|
|
Deteriorata posted:Trump ordered to pay New York Times nearly $400k in legal fees for ‘frivolous’ lawsuit A taster as we wait for the big decisions. Nice.
|
|
#
?
Jan 12, 2024 22:45
|
|
|
Mooseontheloose posted:You know when Barak Obama in 2012 was polling ten points behind a generic repbulican. And then the American public met all of the Republicans and picked the least objectional and lost. This is a big part of it https://twitter.com/mj_lee/status/1745859283013582882 And of course there are favorable polls too. https://twitter.com/SimonWDC/status/1745912207680950384?s=20
|
|
#
?
Jan 13, 2024 01:24
|
|
|
Pillowpants posted:Can someone show me a good path forward here where we don’t end this year with Trump as president? I just don’t see the Supreme Court doing the right thing and his supporters don’t care about crimes. In troubling times like these, it's good to remember Primary and General voters are radically different people. 90% of voters aren't paying attention to politics until late October. Trump beating out the other R nominees is pretty easy, but the average voter still hates him.
|
|
#
?
Jan 13, 2024 01:43
|
|
|
Charlz Guybon posted:This is a big part of it I'm really getting the feeling here that we should basically completely be disregarding polling until about a few months out from the election beyond noting interesting trends.
|
|
#
?
Jan 13, 2024 02:12
|
|
|
Raenir Salazar posted:I'm really getting the feeling here that we should basically completely be disregarding polling until about a few months out from the election beyond noting interesting trends. Yes. Always. Every election.
|
|
#
?
Jan 13, 2024 02:18
|
|
|
Raenir Salazar posted:I'm really getting the feeling here that we should basically completely be disregarding polling until about a few months out from the election beyond noting interesting trends. I mean, probably at least until the conventions give us the official nominees.
|
|
#
?
Jan 13, 2024 02:21
|
|
|
Raenir Salazar posted:I'm really getting the feeling here that we should basically completely be disregarding polling until about a few months out from the election beyond noting interesting trends. In a few years the pollsters will tell everyone they figured out what has been skewing their polls and that they’ve fixed it. It will seem very compelling. And then their polls will still be wrong.
|
|
#
?
Jan 13, 2024 02:22
|
|
|
Engoron's going to rule against Trump. It will be a massive penalty. The pundits will tell us Engoron’s ruling is bullet proof on appeal. It probably will be. And it’s still going to take 2+ years for the appeals process to get to the point of actually doing something. Trump has figured out that the US courts are pathological. Like a handful of rice strewn in front of a vampire the courts cannot refuse to engage with an argument that isn’t formatted in the accepted manner. It actually improves his chances of delay when he doesn’t cite a reference for a position or assertion because then the little smart people all have to sit around and invent a new framework to rebut it instead of just dismissing it out of hand. It’s going to be pretty funny to see who ponies up the money to cover Trumps bond so he can appeal though. There’s no way Trump has 350 million of his own to put up. Edit: also the irony of the “fraud vitiates every thing.” people believing that since trumps crimes were ‘victimless’ that he can’t be punished for it. Murgos fucked around with this message at 02:45 on Jan 13, 2024 |
|
#
?
Jan 13, 2024 02:31
|
|
|
Gyges posted:I mean, probably at least until the conventions give us the official nominees. Fun fact, the first political party convention in America was for the Anti masonic party.
|
|
#
?
Jan 13, 2024 03:27
|
|
|
Lammasu posted:Fun fact, the first political party convention in America was for the Anti masonic party.
|
|
#
?
Jan 13, 2024 04:46
|
|
|
SubG posted:In which they nominated William Wirt, a second-degree Freemason. American politics has always been stupid.
|
|
#
?
Jan 13, 2024 05:07
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 6, 2024 10:05 |
|
|
Lammasu posted:American politics has always been stupid. Wait till you find out what the taxes we were originally so pissed off about were paying off.
|
|
#
?
Jan 13, 2024 05:59
|
|