The Rehearsal AND Paul T Goldman AND The Curse AND Green Queen Discussion

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wa27: Jan 15, 2007

Well it certainly didn't disappoint with the "unexpected ending" promises.

Asher's "waaah I'm a baby" joke from the tree was great.

I was 99% sure the baby was going to float up when it came out, once they revealed it was breeched.

# ? Jan 12, 2024 19:51

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# ? Jun 7, 2024 00:44

Aye Doc: Jul 19, 2007

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q7IIly0Cq8Q

here's a small interview from Film at Lincoln Center, moreso about the entire season than the finale. at 7:00 PM today at their physical location, they'll be airing of the finale with Benny doing a Q&A after so hopefully that'll get uploaded to this channel after or someone there will report back on it

e: hooray!

https://twitter.com/FilmLinc/status/1745672865054114295

# ? Jan 12, 2024 19:56

xbilkis: Apr 11, 2005; god qb
me
jay hova

https://twitter.com/a24/status/1745838068702031912

Last shirt here definitely takes on a different meaning after the finale. There�s something to Asher subsuming himself to Whitney�s needs to the point of literal nonexistence, I dunno

Also, re: resolution - I don�t blame anyone who feels like the finale wasn�t narratively satisfying, but with the benefit of hindsight, I do feel like there is a lot more resolution in episode 9 than it might have felt like at the time.

You get Whitney willing to totally abandon her morals and backtrack on the �Doing right by the people we displace� deal they made with Fernando, who�s out of the job they gave him and whose mother now has a questionable ability to support herself.
After weeks of pushing for an edgy subversive show, Dougie immediately folds and makes a by-the-books reality show once he�s in the presence of a network exec, rendering all his bluster meaningless.
Cara�s response to Whitney�s efforts to co-opt her is to go back to working as a masseuse.
Espa�ola gets nothing out of the presence of the show but nuisances like an influx of petty theft.
In the end, Whitney gets to a point where she�s willing to wreck the foundation of the show just to spite Asher, and Asher is willing to be pathetic enough to say he doesn�t care about that and pledges to himself even further in service of Whitney, which is enough to grimly keep them together.

The first couple of scenes in the finale are a suitable epilogue for some other hanging threads, too. The show doesn�t do anything meaningful for the Siegels. It gets dumped straight to streaming, nobody cares about it, and they�re not in a place of financial stability/independence. Their last attempt at altruism still presents challenges/issues for the recipient like property taxes that they were too detached to think about, and it turns out Asher was recording the whole thing anyway because deep down it was a self-serving act because that�s who these people are. To Abshir, the Siegels are still just this random couple that periodically inserted themselves into his life but forged no actual connection with him, so he doesn�t really care about them beyond figuring out the logistics of how he�s going to take ownership of the house.

# ? Jan 12, 2024 20:09

Aye Doc: Jul 19, 2007

wow id buy the hell outta that cherry tomato boys shirt but $60???

# ? Jan 12, 2024 20:13

Lister: Apr 23, 2004

gurragadon posted:

I didn't understand Abshir in the final episode, where were his kids? Who as that guy in Abshir's house? Why even add that part in with how the back half went? Fernando, Phoebe, Whitney's parents, and even Dougie feel unfinished to me. Cara got a satisfying enough ending to me with her interaction with Whitney at the massage parlor.

I noticed that too. Abshir is made to look unsympathetic in his last scene. Where are the kids? Out. Who's that guy? A friend. What about the property taxes? How about you just give me the cash for it. From only the perspective of whit and ash, it makes the audience think that his curt answers mean he's hiding something and giving it to him is a mistake. Clearly the scene is trying to communicate that the gift is not being received well and they both regret it even though they keep telling themselves it's the right thing to do.

Did he send his girls out without caring where they go so he could invite a friend over to do drugs with the little cash he has? Maybe. But kids go out to parks, people invite friends to hang out in their homes, getting cash would be simpler to pay off your own tax bill. None of those things are any of their business yet it's easy to assume the worst. We've only ever seen him be a good guy (although taking your kids to a parking lot to sell soda is shady - even then I'm saying that as a middle class person who's never needed to hustle to survive) so why assume the worst now? I think what they're going for here is for the audience to think about why they might watch this scene and change their mind about Abshir after he's likable throughout the series.

# ? Jan 12, 2024 20:28

Perry Mason Jar: Feb 24, 2006; "Della? Take a lid"

Lister posted:

I noticed that too. Abshir is made to look unsympathetic in his last scene. Where are the kids? Out. Who's that guy? A friend. What about the property taxes? How about you just give me the cash for it. From only the perspective of whit and ash, it makes the audience think that his curt answers mean he's hiding something and giving it to him is a mistake. Clearly the scene is trying to communicate that the gift is not being received well and they both regret it even though they keep telling themselves it's the right thing to do.

Did he send his girls out without caring where they go so he could invite a friend over to do drugs with the little cash he has? Maybe. But kids go out to parks, people invite friends to hang out in their homes, getting cash would be simpler to pay off your own tax bill. None of those things are any of their business yet it's easy to assume the worst. We've only ever seen him be a good guy (although taking your kids to a parking lot to sell soda is shady - even then I'm saying that as a middle class person who's never needed to hustle to survive) so why assume the worst now? I think what they're going for here is for the audience to think about why they might watch this scene and change their mind about Abshir after he's likable throughout the series.

I didn't once find him likeable?

# ? Jan 12, 2024 20:32

Bike without wheels: Jan 2, 2005; this post

Perry Mason Jar posted:

I didn't once find him likeable?

I think it�s meant to drive the point home that there is no �perfect victim�

# ? Jan 12, 2024 20:54

Lister: Apr 23, 2004

Perry Mason Jar posted:

I didn't once find him likeable?

Your mileage will vary. He's a guy who's on the edge of homelessness and struggling. Maybe the pity I felt towards him and his situation made me like him more. The only thing he's shown as doing "wrong" is not showing much gratitude to whit and ash for as much as they're giving him. Even then, being gracious isn't supposed to be a condition of charity.

Lister fucked around with this message at 21:39 on Jan 12, 2024

# ? Jan 12, 2024 21:35

veni veni veni: Jun 5, 2005

I felt like Dougie confidently explaining what was going on to the fireman was a total jab at big brained internet take-havers and the inevitable reddit discussions.

# ? Jan 12, 2024 21:38

Another Bill: Sep 27, 2018; Born on the bayou
died in a cave
bbq and posting
is all I crave

Aye Doc posted:

there's supposed to be a Q&A screening happening with Safdie somewhere today

Oooooh I hope this is in Toronto because I'm gonna be there :hellyeah:

# ? Jan 12, 2024 22:08

OldSenileGuy: Mar 13, 2001

Biggest laugh might have been "I think we might need the crevice tool"

Either that or Rachel Ray telling them to their faces on national television that their houses suck and them being too oblivious to realize it

# ? Jan 12, 2024 22:27

opengl: Sep 16, 2010

OldSenileGuy posted:

Biggest laugh might have been "I think we might need the crevice tool"

That one got me good

# ? Jan 12, 2024 22:35

Escobarbarian: Jun 18, 2004; Grimey Drawer

Reposting something I saw in a comment on Alan Sepinwall�s newsletter because I liked it a lot and think it deserves a bigger audience:

quote:

The first thing I thought of, watching the finale, was The Metamorphosis�not just because it's actually-literally Kafkaesque to have something surreal and horrifying happen without explanation which everyone immediately treats as mundane, but because one of the underlying themes in The Metamorphosis is the instant social alienation that Gregor Samsa experiences, where he's more-or-less treated as inhuman and not-actually-there, in ways that lead to his death. It's less a matter of "what made this happen?" and more a matter of "what does this happening expose?"

And in that sense, I think the finale works on the two levels that it needed to work on, in addition to its sheer jaw-dropping spectacle.

On a personal, character-note level, the effect it has on the show's three main leads was absolutely revelatory:

1. Dougie's immediate response, which is to minimize Asher's fear and treat this as TV gold, slowly erodes and gives way to a genuine concern, which in turn leads to his having a total meltdown as he relives the experience of his wife dying�grieving her in a way he hasn't let himself do all season, and admitting the profound guilt he now feels at being responsible for TWO people's deaths.

2. Whitney succumbs to her feelings at being completely out-of-control, fundamentally incapable of being what she feels others want her to be; the version of her that we see at the end is a woman who is deeply unsettled and uncertain, but openly so, in a way that feels paradoxically peaceful for her. (And the fact that Asher is gone from her life might be a major part of that.)

3. And Asher, meanwhile, DIRECTLY experiences the thing that's been sublimated throughout the entire season: the sense that he's insanely disconnected from everybody else in his life, and that they're fundamentally incapable of being there for him�even when they SEE him, even when they EMPATHIZE with him, they have no room in their lives for him. Whitney sees him as an escape from her parents, a convenient husband-shaped figure; Dougie sees him as show material, and as a "friend" who won't abandon him; even the people who see what's literally happening to him minimize what's going onto him, brushing him off as somebody else's problem or insisting to his face that he's overreacting.

And it's Asher's experience, I think, that ties the PERSONAL themes of the episode into the SOCIETAL themes that the other nine episodes focus on more directly. Because The Curse is a show about societal alienation and disconnect, and about people trying to "be good" without really understanding what "good" even looks like. It's a show that opens with a woman who's dying of cancer, suffering the indignity of someone dripping fake tears into her eyes, in the name of making a show that's superficially about doing good for a community while actually tearing that community apart.

Emma Stone described Whitney as a "human mood ring" at the panel for episodes 8 and 9 a couple of weeks ago: someone who superficially understands what "the right thing to do" is, but doesn't really understand WHY it is. She wants to do good for Espanola, but mostly to distance herself from her parents; her versions of "doing good" are not only ill-considered, they have local residents showing up at her house armed with automatic rifles to try and get her to cut it out. She wants to be a good friend to Cara, not understanding that it's her (and people like her) that are the cancer undermining Cara's attempts to be an artist. (Cara has to create art that panders to non-Native audiences, in ways that estrange her from the one Native man who comes to her art show; whether her art succeeds or fails, she's selling herself as "the Native American," trying to express something that her audience doesn't understand no matter how plainly she spells it out for them.)

Her treatment of Espanola is mirrored by Dougie's treatment of her marriage: to him, human tragedy is just one of those things that attracts eyeballs, and his "empathy" can easily convert to cruelty if it's what the producers want. She at least THINKS that she wants to do good by others; he's less delusional about the fact that his care for other people is largely self-serving. And the whole show, large and small, is about that phenomenon: people pretending to do good, unable to understand that they don't know how, because to understand that, they'd have to admit their real motives aren't benign at all.

If Whitney's feigned good is all in the name of establishing an identity for herself, and Dougie's is all in the name of creating a successful show, Asher's is the most vulnerable and desperate: he just wants to be someone that people like, let alone love. And HE doesn't know how because he's incapable of admitting, not just how alone he is, but how bitter and resentful he is towards everyone else he is. (Though it sure comes out a lot.)

He wants the show and the child for the same reasons: because he thinks they'll force other people to be connected to him. And that word, "force," is important�because everything he does, including his "good deeds" towards Abshir, is coercive. So just as Whitney destroys Espanola in the name of saving it, just as Dougie destroys and humiliates people in the name of turning them into good television, Asher destroys any chance that he could form meaningful connection by the way he goes about forming it.

The finale is that tension literalized: the more desperately Asher tries to reach out, the more he's pulled apart. But, as he said in the penultimate episode, he IS the curse: everything he does to solve his predicament makes it worse. He destroys in the name of healing. So does Whitney, and so does Dougie; what's unique about Asher is just that he both destroys and IS destroyed, like an ouroboros or a cancer, eating himself alive.

But on another level, beyond whether it says something about narcissism masquerading as social reparations or what it says about the people at the center of the story, I think this finale was just jarring, disturbing, spectacular, memorable television.

At the panel at the Lincoln, Benny Safdie endlessly reiterated that their approach, with the show, was to depict things happening "in real time," to find all the fleshed-out and strange and awkward moments in sequences that television usually cuts down. And they took that "in real time" approach to the surreal situation Asher finds himself in, playing it out moment-by-moment, capturing it in an almost mundane way, finding gorgeous touches like the way Ash and Whit float in the air as they cling to each other. That mundanity made it infinitely more unsettling for me, especially as Ash flew out to space and the camera captured it as dispassionately as it captured all of its less-extraordinary moments. As storytelling, as drama, as spectacle, I thought it was flabbergasting�it's telling that I asked myself whether film has ever captured anything like this before, and the only comparisons I could think of were to things like the ending of Lars Von Trier's Melancholia.

# ? Jan 12, 2024 23:33

PostNouveau: Sep 3, 2011; VY till I die; Grimey Drawer

They did a great job with the effects. I'd love to know how they did it.

# ? Jan 12, 2024 23:40

veni veni veni: Jun 5, 2005

I'm sure most of it was just filming in a room built upside down, but there was something strangely convincing about the effect that I can't put my finger on

# ? Jan 12, 2024 23:43

The Dave: Sep 9, 2003

They were both acting their asses off.

# ? Jan 12, 2024 23:50

cant cook creole bream: Aug 15, 2011; I think Fahrenheit is better for weather

One thing which didn't really make sense was Whit and Ash hugging and perfectly balancing in the air. Wouldn't whoever has more mass (even if it's ever so slightly more) pull the other one down? As a sum they'd weigh relatively little but I don't think their difference is so little that they could be buoyant on air.

Yes. That is the thing I have problems with. The rest is fine!

# ? Jan 13, 2024 00:07

PostNouveau: Sep 3, 2011; VY till I die; Grimey Drawer

Asher and the doula should have tried that maneuver indoors *CinemaSins ding*

# ? Jan 13, 2024 00:12

Mordja: Apr 26, 2014; Hell Gem

Well, that was a trip. Maybe not an entirely satisfying conclusion, but I'm glad I watched it.
With Nathan's calling the baby, "a little me" or whatever I was kinda expecting Asher to die in space right as the baby came out with an imposed Nathanface on it

Anyway, still think The Rehearsal is the best thing he's done.

# ? Jan 13, 2024 00:34

Martman: Nov 20, 2006

cant cook creole bream posted:

One thing which didn't really make sense was Whit and Ash hugging and perfectly balancing in the air. Wouldn't whoever has more mass (even if it's ever so slightly more) pull the other one down? As a sum they'd weigh relatively little but I don't think their difference is so little that they could be buoyant on air.

Yes. That is the thing I have problems with. The rest is fine!

first you have to explain what's specifically happening to Ash in order to decide whether it plays out in the way it "should." So uhh basically I dunno.

Also I was really stunned by Nathan's performance, I think he's a really talented physical actor.

# ? Jan 13, 2024 00:41

goferchan: Feb 8, 2004; It's 2006. I am taking 276 yeti furs from the goodies hoard.

veni veni veni posted:

I'm sure most of it was just filming in a room built upside down, but there was something strangely convincing about the effect that I can't put my finger on

It honestly freaked me out a bit. Pretty creepy!

# ? Jan 13, 2024 01:02

limp dick calvin: Sep 1, 2006; Strepitoso. Vedete? Una meraviglia.

I�m not sure I �get it� but it was very entertaining and Nathan is a fantastic actor. His monologue in episode 9 creeped me out.

# ? Jan 13, 2024 01:05

snoremac: Jul 27, 2012; I LOVE SEEING DEAD BABIES ON 𝕏, THE EVERYTHING APP. IT'S WORTH IT FOR THE FOLLOWING TAB.

A moment I can't make sense of: the baby room contractor's worker angrily saying he will tell everyone about the baby being a boy. Very menacing and strange. My initial thought was it's just an awful deadpan joke that unsettles everyone as much as an Asher joke might.

snoremac fucked around with this message at 01:08 on Jan 13, 2024

# ? Jan 13, 2024 01:05

tristeham: Jul 31, 2022

Henchman of Santa posted:

I thought it was hysterical but I do have to agree with Sepinwall that it just feels like a big non sequitur for the sake of it. I wildly disagree with his take on The Rehearsal�s ending but we don�t need to relitigate that.

sepinwall is dumb as dogshit

# ? Jan 13, 2024 01:28

opengl: Sep 16, 2010

snoremac posted:

A moment I can't make sense of: the baby room contractor's worker angrily saying he will tell everyone about the baby being a boy. Very menacing and strange. My initial thought was it's just an awful deadpan joke that unsettles everyone as much as an Asher joke might.

That was my take too

# ? Jan 13, 2024 01:54

graventy: Jul 28, 2006; Fun Shoe

lmao

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r5yqklQwCWM

# ? Jan 13, 2024 01:56

Escobarbarian: Jun 18, 2004; Grimey Drawer

I generally am a big fan of Sepinwall but this isn�t a non-sequitur in any way tbh. But I also don�t think that�s what he�s saying in his review at all?

# ? Jan 13, 2024 01:58

goferchan: Feb 8, 2004; It's 2006. I am taking 276 yeti furs from the goodies hoard.

Lol how long has this been Nathan's twitter profile banner :tinfoil:

# ? Jan 13, 2024 02:20

Escobarbarian: Jun 18, 2004; Grimey Drawer

lmfao Rachael Ray advertising some cleaning wipes instead of paying attention to Asher and Whitney is so funny

# ? Jan 13, 2024 02:42

a new study bible!: Feb 2, 2009; BIG DICK NICK
A Philadelphia Legend
Fly Eagles Fly

I dont want to write a bunch of poo poo that's already been written a million times, but holy poo poo that was incredible. The show isn't perfect by any stretch, but it clearly fits in perfectly into Nathan Fielder's oeuvre. You really have to have seen all of his other tv work to appreciate it. He is the most alienated person on the planet.

# ? Jan 13, 2024 02:48

flashy_mcflash: Feb 7, 2011

What a finale.

Did the surgeon performing the C-section ask for "foley and grip"? I was positive it was going to zoom out and end up being a set and show within a show. Maybe it still is?

My initial theory is that Espanola and the events of the show are Asher, Whit and possibly Dougie's version of hell. When Asher gave the house away, a relatively selfless act, he was allowed to ascend/escape while Whit is stuck with "a little [Asher]"

# ? Jan 13, 2024 02:49

Brock Samson: May 13, 2003; I let you know me, see me. I gave you a rare gift, but you didn't want it.

Did anyone else think the baby was gonna have adult Asher's face?

# ? Jan 13, 2024 03:06

Another Bill: Sep 27, 2018; Born on the bayou
died in a cave
bbq and posting
is all I crave

Here's my thing, which has sort of been said already, I think Asher wasn't suddenly floating upwards so much as he was repelled by Mama Whitney. She suddenly didn't need him for validation in the same way once she became a mother. And that dynamic was the only thing holding them together.

# ? Jan 13, 2024 03:31

Mordja: Apr 26, 2014; Hell Gem

Brock Samson posted:

Did anyone else think the baby was gonna have adult Asher's face?

Achem!

Mordja posted:

Well, that was a trip. Maybe not an entirely satisfying conclusion, but I'm glad I watched it.
With Nathan's calling the baby, "a little me" or whatever I was kinda expecting Asher to die in space right as the baby came out with an imposed Nathanface on it

Anyway, still think The Rehearsal is the best thing he's done.

# ? Jan 13, 2024 03:39

Another Bill: Sep 27, 2018; Born on the bayou
died in a cave
bbq and posting
is all I crave

Oh I should say I really liked it too, the epidural bit really hit me.

# ? Jan 13, 2024 03:42

flashy_mcflash: Feb 7, 2011

Pretty interesting re: the Rachael Ray taping.

# ? Jan 13, 2024 04:06

bobjr: Oct 16, 2012; Roose is loose.
🐓🐓🐓✊🪧

Do we know what Dougie cursed Asher with? He seemed like he was guilty so I wondered if it was his curse taken in a weird way

# ? Jan 13, 2024 04:23

a new study bible!: Feb 2, 2009; BIG DICK NICK
A Philadelphia Legend
Fly Eagles Fly

Obviously art should stand alone but if you aren't thinking about this show within the context of his other work it's never going to land fully.

# ? Jan 13, 2024 04:25

beepo: Oct 8, 2000; Forum Veteran

Thoughts on the production crew oopsies

Marginalized people are conscripted into playing roles if they want to get along in society. Whether or not you literally have a production crew directing people in service jobs and other low status circumstances, the marginalized know there are things they can and can't say and a certain way they must act. The customer, the gentrifier, and the colonizer can do what they want and get to call the shots. They have forces working in their favor, working in the background silently and invisibly to the high status person. Stylistically, why not have a crew making sure some randos don't get in the way of the important people's story.

Abshir's role in the story of Whitney and Asher was coming to an end, so he isn't needed anymore. The creepy production guy was impatient and didn't want to wait to strike the set.

# ? Jan 13, 2024 04:28

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# ? Jun 7, 2024 00:44

goferchan: Feb 8, 2004; It's 2006. I am taking 276 yeti furs from the goodies hoard.

wizardofloneliness posted:

Look, sometimes you have to go to extreme lengths to make your point, is what I�m saying.

# ? Jan 13, 2024 04:29

The Something Awful Forums > The Finer Arts > TV IV > The Rehearsal AND Paul T Goldman AND The Curse AND Green Queen Discussion

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