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Gripweed posted:It is an unquestionably evil act. The Houthis are acting to try to stop a genocide, and Biden is killing them for it. Unconstitutionally, even, for the candidate claiming that his re-election is crucial for preserving the constitution and rule of law. I do not agree at all with multiple premises of this, so let's start with the part where you've concluded that the US participation in the attacks is unconstitutional. Why?
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Jan 13, 2024 00:34
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reignonyourparade posted:If that's actually all Xiahou Dun was arguing against then straight up this is just two posters having different standards for the word "roughly." I guess? I can't imagine "off by a half a continent, minimum" as "roughly" but, if that's how fast and loose you play, sure.
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Jan 13, 2024 00:34
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GlyphGryph posted:That's exactly, functionally, what "it loving means", to be clear, so I don't know why you're so angry about people suggesting it. What specifically do young white men need that is being denied to them specifically? And what does their whiteness have to do with it? E: what I am angry about is the idea that young white men are special snowflakes that need to be coddled lest they become school shooters or Tate acolytes. They need the same things as everyone else, no more no less Professor Beetus fucked around with this message at 00:37 on Jan 13, 2024 |
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Jan 13, 2024 00:35
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Xalidur posted:As a generally Left-For-America Guy (voted for Bernie in both primaries where I could, I'm the president of my union local), I have long had the general belief that Far Left Internet People, if sometimes a bit further out there than I wanted to go, were at least smarter than Right Wingers. The deluge of credulously pro-Houthi takes in effort to score points against the perfidious Joe Biden have sadly forced me to conclude that I was wrong. They are equally as stupid as the right, if not more so. Same, except I have also experience the weird nonsense directly from people I know in real life as well and it is just... So, so mindboggling stupid that I am having trouble wrapping my head around why people are buying in so deeply.
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Jan 13, 2024 00:35
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Kavros posted:I do not agree at all with multiple premises of this, so let's start with the part where you've concluded that the US participation in the attacks is unconstitutional. Why? Like a half dozen members of the squad posted about how it was unconstitutional, so it's hard to blame people itt for thinking it
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Jan 13, 2024 00:36
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:How are they trying to stop a genocide by doing the same thing they have been doing since 2014? And 0 of the ships they have attacked have been Israeli. The Houthis themselves are saying they're doing it because of Israel's attacks on Gaza, and they'll stop when food and aid is allowed into Gaza. The ships don't have to be Israeli for these attacks to disrupt trade into Israel. Which, as far as I know, they have. And I think the US government would disagree with your position that actually this has all been business as usual since 2014, since they're only attacking Yemen about it now. And I think your point would be stronger if you didn't just immediately pivot to "And they're just bad people generally"
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Jan 13, 2024 00:38
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Xalidur posted:As a generally Left-For-America Guy (voted for Bernie in both primaries where I could, I'm the president of my union local), I have long had the general belief that Far Left Internet People, if sometimes a bit further out there than I wanted to go, were at least smarter than Right Wingers. The deluge of credulously pro-Houthi takes in effort to score points against the perfidious Joe Biden have sadly forced me to conclude that I was wrong. They are equally as stupid as the right, if not more so. It's pretty much the Dril tweet about ISIS happening in real time.
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Jan 13, 2024 00:39
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Gripweed posted:And I think the US government would disagree with your position that actually this has all been business as usual since 2014, since they're only attacking Yemen about it now. We literally did the exact same thing - on a much larger scale - in 2016 after they were attacking shipping lanes and they stopped for about two years. Please learn anything about the situation before making broad claims like that. quote:In 2016, the United States struck three Houthi missile sites with Tomahawk cruise missiles after the Houthis fired on Navy and commercial vessels. The Houthis’ attacks stopped afterward. https://www.nytimes.com/2024/01/11/us/politics/us-houthi-missile-strikes.html
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Jan 13, 2024 00:40
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GlyphGryph posted:Its being talked about specifically because of the evidence that young men are being radicalized at increasingly higher rates according to the surverys and studies being done on the issue, which were linked at the beginning of this conversation. Do you mean this? Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:New Gallup poll shows a continuation of a trend that has been happening for a while: Young men (of all races, but especially white men) are slowly getting more conservative, but young women are getting much more liberal. That is probably just political polls being weird, since other evidence like election results does not show that happening. If it's real it's entirely localized to young men who do not vote in elections, who are probably harder to poll. The most convincing explanation I've seen is that it's hard to reach old Republicans and demographic weighting adjusts in the opposite direction.
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Jan 13, 2024 00:40
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Gripweed posted:It is an unquestionably evil act. The Houthis are acting to try to stop a genocide, and Biden is killing them for it. Unconstitutionally, even, for the candidate claiming that his re-election is crucial for preserving the constitution and rule of law. The Houthis are not trying to stop a genocide. They’re just pirates who are using the genocide to try and get some good press for their piracy and take advantage of the chaos. They haven’t struck a single Israel ship, and have been doing this for the past 9 years, which predates the current genocide attempts that they claim they are trying to stop by roughly nine years.
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Jan 13, 2024 00:40
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Kavros posted:I do not agree at all with multiple premises of this, so let's start with the part where you've concluded that the US participation in the attacks is unconstitutional. Why? Joe Biden didn't have the authority to order those attacks without Congressional approval. At least that's what these people are saying, and I think they have some professional experience in this area. https://twitter.com/RepCori/status/1745614952855949622 https://twitter.com/RepValHoyle/status/1745592968826757348?t=vi7xgE6_JK9qCIEwQvlFMw&s=19 https://twitter.com/RoKhanna/status/1745590169493745693 https://twitter.com/RepJayapal/status/1745602388524671351
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Jan 13, 2024 00:43
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Main Paineframe posted:Xiahou Dun isn't arguing against the existence of pan-Germanism, he's arguing specifically against this claim: Thanks, I guess I missed the nitty-gritty of the claim being debated - it does seem like we have strayed very far from the original point that the argument was meant to support.
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Jan 13, 2024 00:48
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:We literally did the exact same thing - on a much larger scale - in 2016 after they were attacking shipping lanes and they stopped for about two years. OK, so they haven't been doing this "since 2014", it's a tactic which they have done in the past. I can't read that article because I don't have a NYT account, but does it say why the Houthis were attacking shipping at that time? Kchama posted:The Houthis are not trying to stop a genocide. They’re just pirates who are using the genocide to try and get some good press for their piracy and take advantage of the chaos. They haven’t struck a single Israel ship, and have been doing this for the past 9 years, which predates the current genocide attempts that they claim they are trying to stop by roughly nine years. If they're doing piracy, why have so many of the attacks just been shooting missile or drones at the boats? I don't see the profit in that.
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Jan 13, 2024 00:51
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Gripweed posted:The Houthis themselves are saying they're doing it because of Israel's attacks on Gaza, and they'll stop when food and aid is allowed into Gaza. The ships don't have to be Israeli for these attacks to disrupt trade into Israel. Which, as far as I know, they have. I am genuinely curious - where is this coming from? How did you hear about this and who framed it in the way youve absorbed it?
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Jan 13, 2024 00:52
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Xalidur posted:As a generally Left-For-America Guy (voted for Bernie in both primaries where I could, I'm the president of my union local), I have long had the general belief that Far Left Internet People, if sometimes a bit further out there than I wanted to go, were at least smarter than Right Wingers. The deluge of credulously pro-Houthi takes in effort to score points against the perfidious Joe Biden have sadly forced me to conclude that I was wrong. They are equally as stupid as the right, if not more so.
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Jan 13, 2024 00:53
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Gripweed posted:OK, so they haven't been doing this "since 2014", it's a tactic which they have done in the past. I can't read that article because I don't have a NYT account, but does it say why the Houthis were attacking shipping at that time? You're killing me, smalls. They have been doing it since 2014. The U.S. didn't bomb their missile sites for the first time until 2016. They are attacking the ships with missiles and then stealing the contents - including humanitarian aid ships. They literally blew up and hijacked a Japanese tanker last year. It seems like you're not super familiar with the situation, but very convinced that basic facts about the last decade are incorrect. quote:Militants believed to be Houthi rebels use helicopter to seize Japanese tanker in Red Sea quote:As a result, several shipping lines and oil major BP have suspended operations in the area. Vessels still passing through the waterway have ramped up on-board security, drawing from lessons learned during the Somali pirate attacks. https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/militants-believed-houthi-rebels-use-helicopter-seize-japanese-tanker-rcna125883 https://www.politico.eu/article/pirates-west-new-battle-red-sea-houthi-somali-raiders-israel-hamas-war/ Leon Trotsky 2012 fucked around with this message at 01:03 on Jan 13, 2024 |
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Jan 13, 2024 00:55
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Gripweed posted:OK, so they haven't been doing this "since 2014", it's a tactic which they have done in the past. I can't read that article because I don't have a NYT account, but does it say why the Houthis were attacking shipping at that time? A lot of the ‘shooting missiles at boat’ seem to be failed attempts at hijacking. They’ve literally hijacked boats and taken them back to Yemen for their stuff that has nothing to do with Israel. Unless you think a vehicle carrier going from Turkey to India is relevant to Israel. Gripweed posted:Joe Biden didn't have the authority to order those attacks without Congressional approval. At least that's what these people are saying, and I think they have some professional experience in this area. So there’s this little thing called the War Powers Act that actually explicitly gives Biden the authority to do this, as long as he informs Congress within a time frame of beginning. He’s informed Congress.
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Jan 13, 2024 00:57
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GlyphGryph posted:I am genuinely curious - where is this coming from? How did you hear about this and who framed it in the way youve absorbed it? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Houthi_involvement_in_the_Israel%E2%80%93Hamas_war Kchama posted:A lot of the ‘shooting missiles at boat’ seem to be failed attempts at hijacking. They’ve literally hijacked boats and taken them back to Yemen for their stuff that has nothing to do with Israel. Unless you think a vehicle carrier going from Turkey to India is relevant to Israel. Yeah they're trying to disrupt trade in the area to hurt Israel. Kchama posted:So there’s this little thing called the War Powers Act that actually explicitly gives Biden the authority to do this, as long as he informs Congress within a time frame of beginning. He’s informed Congress. alright well that's the last time I trust Congressmembers. Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:You're killing me, smalls. You're still using "since" wrong. If they did it 2014-2016, and then stopped, and then started again last year, they haven't been doing it since 2014. That's like me saying I've been exercising regularly since 2020. And you're saying they're stealing the contents of the boats, but the article you yourself linked says the boat was empty!
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Jan 13, 2024 01:03
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Gripweed posted:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Houthi_involvement_in_the_Israel%E2%80%93Hamas_war Two years after 2016 is 2018. If they stopped for two years after 2016, then what year did they resume? quote:As a result, several shipping lines and oil major BP have suspended operations in the area. Vessels still passing through the waterway have ramped up on-board security, drawing from lessons learned during the Somali pirate attacks.
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Jan 13, 2024 01:05
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:Two years after 2016 is 2018. If they stopped for two years after 2016, then what year did they resume? That, doesn't have a date on the quoted portion?
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Jan 13, 2024 01:10
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Gripweed posted:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Houthi_involvement_in_the_Israel%E2%80%93Hamas_war Weird that they've apparently been trying to disrupt trade in the area to hurt Israel for years longer than they've claimed to be trying to disrupt trade in the area to hurt Israel. Or, they're using this as an excuse to step up their attacks with international approval because they can claim they're doing it for a good cause. I mean, they're doing a good job hurting a hell of a lot more countries that would otherwise be sympathetic to them and less so for Israel than they are hurting Israel, which uses it for 30% of their imports. Which means that a lot of non-Israel people are being hurt by them. Like the people they've kidnapped to say the least.
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Jan 13, 2024 01:10
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Kchama posted:Weird that they've apparently been trying to disrupt trade in the area to hurt Israel for years longer than they've claimed to be trying to disrupt trade in the area to hurt Israel. This is the same thing as people saying that protests that block traffic are bad because they inconvenience unrelated people. And I think 30% of imports is a pretty big percentage of imports. If my income was cut by 30%, that would have a pretty big effect. If you lost 30% of the blood in your body, you’d be upset.
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Jan 13, 2024 01:17
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Gripweed posted:This is the same thing as people saying that protests that block traffic are bad because they inconvenience unrelated people. And I think 30% of imports is a pretty big percentage of imports. If my income was cut by 30%, that would have a pretty big effect. If you lost 30% of the blood in your body, you’d be upset. Minor traffic inconvenience, getting shot by missiles and/or kidnapped and ransomed, basically the same deal.
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Jan 13, 2024 01:18
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Josef bugman posted:That, doesn't have a date on the quoted portion? It is in the NYT times story link. They started in 2014 through 2016. They stopped for two years after the U.S. blew up all of their missile sites and boats. Then, they started doing it again in 2018. They raided dozens of ships and hijacked two Korean tankers and a Saudi Arabian tugboat in 2019. quote:In November 2019, the Houthis seized two South Korean vessels and a Saudi-flagged tug in the Red Sea a few miles off Uqban island, north of Hodeida. They continued for two more years, but stopped in 2021 once the U.S., UAE, Japan, Korea, Saudi Arabia, Australia, and the U.K. started sending warships to escort merchant ships. A year later, they resumed hijacking multiple ships and were still hijacking ships in 2022, a full year before the current Gaza conflict. quote:Tensions boil after Houthi capture of UAE-flagged ship quote:The US State Department on Tuesday condemned the Houthis’ seizure of the vessel and urged its release, adding all parties should be de-escalating and returning to inclusive political talks. They have literally been engaging in piracy and hijacking for 8 of the last 10 years straight. These are basic historical facts. https://thearabweekly.com/tensions-boil-after-houthi-capture-uae-flagged-ship Leon Trotsky 2012 fucked around with this message at 01:25 on Jan 13, 2024 |
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Jan 13, 2024 01:20
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Gripweed posted:This is the same thing as people saying that protests that block traffic are bad because they inconvenience unrelated people. And I think 30% of imports is a pretty big percentage of imports. If my income was cut by 30%, that would have a pretty big effect. If you lost 30% of the blood in your body, you’d be upset. This is literally not the same thing. It might be the same if instead these protests involved shooting at random cars and pedestrians or hijacking them and kidnapping the passengers travelling through the street, and claiming that every shot was a blow against someone else entirely. But they aren't shutting down literally 30% of their imports. As far as I'm aware, they haven't done any damage to Israel shipping directly.
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Jan 13, 2024 01:23
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Doesn't a bunch of the Iraq-era War Powers stuff give the President more-or-less free latitude to do whatever he wants to wrt military action?
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Jan 13, 2024 01:27
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Nissin Cup Nudist posted:Doesn't a bunch of the Iraq-era War Powers stuff give the President more-or-less free latitude to do whatever he wants to wrt military action? No, the 2003 AUMF isn't related to this. The Constitution does, but it is vague. They introduced the war powers resolution in 1973 that put some guardrails on the executive's ability to use military force without congress. He can do it unilaterally as long as it doesn't involve troops being deployed for more than 60 days and he notifies congress within 48 hours.
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Jan 13, 2024 01:29
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James Garfield posted:I think "the radicalization of young white men" is mostly commenters seeing that Andrew Tate has a lot of youtube subscribers and jumping to takes without considering the large body of evidence that young white men are not as radicalized as their older counterparts. Rush Limbaugh radicalized more people than Andrew Tate, he just didn't have a view count on every segment. Gotta say, it kind of disturbs me that "radicalisation of young men" and "epidemic of isolation among young men" is assumed to be two wholly overlapping circles. No doubt they overlap to some degree, and isolation feeds into radicalisation in many cases, but I'm willing to bet most are not shunned but rather withdrawing because they have no hope. And this is an increasing thing outside the US too, so I don't think it can be boiled down to racial issues.
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Jan 13, 2024 01:43
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:It is in the NYT times story link. That article says the Houthis claimed the ship they seized in 2022 was carrying military equipment. So that's not piracy, that's legitimate. It also mentions something about a blockade. It says Saudis are blockading the Houthi-controlled ports in Yemen. Which reminds me, there was a war going on in Yemen for awhile. I think that maybe the Houthis capturing ships maybe a more complex situation than just evil pirates, pirating evilly. Kchama posted:This is literally not the same thing. It might be the same if instead these protests involved shooting at random cars and pedestrians or hijacking them and kidnapping the passengers travelling through the street, and claiming that every shot was a blow against someone else entirely. No, it's the same logic, you were talking about people "otherwise sympathetic to them" assuming that people who would have been against Israel's geocide are now at least apathetic because they have been inconvenienced by the attacks on shipping. I assume you meant the other countries effected, like Egypt, and not the crews of the ships themselves. Because that's really not a lot of people, so swinging their sympathy isn't that big of a factor. I'm sure the sailors aren't happy, but that's always true when there's a blockade. Kchama posted:But they aren't shutting down literally 30% of their imports. As far as I'm aware, they haven't done any damage to Israel shipping directly. You are aware incorrectly. From that Wikipedia I linked quote:Houthi attacks have impacted shipping into Israel and local trade, with commercial shipping to the port of Eilat having almost completely ceased. Instead, commercial ships coming from Asia to Israel, as well as some commercial ships not destined for Israel, have started to go around Africa, which makes the journey around three weeks longer while increasing expenses. quote:Another impact of Houthi involvement was that insurance costs for commercial ships that go through the Red Sea have increased; Israeli ships have seen an increase of 250%, and others were unable to get any insurance. I also want to circle back around to this point Kchama posted:Or, they're using this as an excuse to step up their attacks with international approval because they can claim they're doing it for a good cause. You say that like that somehow undermines the whole thing. If the Houthis were attacking ships because of their ongoing situation with the old government of Yemen and Saudi Arabia and that whole mess, or even if they were just doing it for the booty, stepping up those attacks to materially hurt Israel, is still a laudable action.
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Jan 13, 2024 01:57
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Gripweed posted:That article says the Houthis claimed the ship they seized in 2022 was carrying military equipment. So that's not piracy, that's legitimate. It also mentions something about a blockade. It says Saudis are blockading the Houthi-controlled ports in Yemen. Which reminds me, there was a war going on in Yemen for awhile. I think that maybe the Houthis capturing ships maybe a more complex situation than just evil pirates, pirating evilly. If you notice, I said 'directly'. Those are indirect impacts at best. By 'directly impact' I mean 'they have not actually damaged or attacked any Israeli trade'. Also, it's not laudable to attack random people just because you are mad at someone else. You're trying to assign moral goodness to pirates because you want them to be on the sign of good. Also I wasn't aware that as long as your attacks only hurt less than X amount of civilians than it is fine, even if you are only attacking those civilians and not anything directly related. Anyways, you think that attacking your own allies and not your enemy is going to make them happy with you?
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Jan 13, 2024 02:20
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Also I don't know why anyone is taking the Houthis at their word that a ship they seized was carrying military equipment. That's like taking the Russians at their word that they're totally only
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Jan 13, 2024 02:23
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Kchama posted:If you notice, I said 'directly'. Those are indirect impacts at best. By 'directly impact' I mean 'they have not actually damaged or attacked any Israeli trade'. Houthis attack trade near Israel -> trade to nearby Israeli ports drops to near 0 and insurance premiums for ships going to Israel shoot up. That seems pretty direct to me? You keep calling them pirates, but as far as I can tell they haven't actually gotten any booty during this conflict. It really seems like all they've accomplished is damaging trade to Israel. And I don't know, let's find out. The non-Israel country most effected by the Houthi attacks has been Egypt. So if anybody has some polling on the Egyptian people, if they blame the Houthis or the Israelis for this situation, let's see it. Because if we don't have any actual public opinion polling, we're both just guessing. And I guess that the Egyptian people are more upset with Israel for doing the genocide than they are with the Houthis for their attempts to pressure Israel to stop it. And I'm pretty sure my guess is more on the money than yours. Angry_Ed posted:Also I don't know why anyone is taking the Houthis at their word that a ship they seized was carrying military equipment. That's like taking the Russians at their word that they're totally only The people who said it wasn't military equipment were the Saudis. Are you willing to assume that the Saudi government is reasonably trustworthy with regards to Yemen? Because I am not.
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Jan 13, 2024 02:26
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Gripweed posted:You keep calling them pirates, but as far as I can tell they haven't actually gotten any booty during this conflict. It really seems like all they've accomplished is damaging trade to Israel. I’m confused, what do you think they’re doing with the ships/cargo they capture? I honestly have no idea, as I haven’t seen anyone report on it. But I would be surprised if they’re simply abandoning them
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Jan 13, 2024 02:29
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Gripweed posted:Houthis attack trade near Israel -> trade to nearby Israeli ports drops to near 0 and insurance premiums for ships going to Israel shoot up. That seems pretty direct to me? We've literally talked about the ships they hijacked, which they hijacked for the items on them. Unless you think they were just taking ships for funsies? They stole a vehicle carrier which had a ton of automotives on board, which I would think is a form of booty. Also, so Saudi is unreliable to trust because it is their word against the Houthi, their enemy... But the Houthi are reliable to trust because it is their word against the Saudis, their enemy?
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Jan 13, 2024 02:32
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Professor Beetus posted:What specifically do young white men need that is being denied to them specifically? And what does their whiteness have to do with it? Mayonnaise-flavored sunscreen. To be serious I think it might be interesting to have a thread looking at the messaging the alt right is using to target this demographic - because as you say there's no literal essence involved here, it's a product of the messaging.
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Jan 13, 2024 02:35
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Kchama posted:We've literally talked about the ships they hijacked, which they hijacked for the items on them. Unless you think they were just taking ships for funsies? They stole a vehicle carrier which had a ton of automotives on board, which I would think is a form of booty. SA is unreliable to trust because they are a dictatorship monarchy that's evil in just about every conceivable way, actually.
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Jan 13, 2024 02:36
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Xiahou Dun posted:I guess? The debate between german nationalists over the "Small Germany" and "Large Germany" is a pretty well known one and sure technically if you read the argument super literally yes its wrong to suppose there was any such consensus over "where the borders should be"; but reading it more charitably and taking like, the early German anthem for context, "between the rhine and the elbe" is also pretty "rough" for a certain definition of rough. I understand the importance of accuracy but this seems a bit uncharitable and is missing the forest for the trees as to what that poster "meant" for their argument. Not everyone words good.
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Jan 13, 2024 02:37
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Gripweed what you need to ask if they’ve hit any ZIM vessels.
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Jan 13, 2024 02:38
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This is not where you heard about it, and very much not what I asked for. Please answer the actual question in regards to your sourcing and don't do stuff like this.
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Jan 13, 2024 02:39
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Gripweed posted:Houthis attack trade near Israel -> trade to nearby Israeli ports drops to near 0 and insurance premiums for ships going to Israel shoot up. That seems pretty direct to me? Which trades call Israel? What do those vessel routes look like?
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Jan 13, 2024 02:40
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