|
Kalit posted:I’m confused, what do you think they’re doing with the ships/cargo they capture? Kchama posted:We've literally talked about the ships they hijacked, which they hijacked for the items on them. Unless you think they were just taking ships for funsies? They stole a vehicle carrier which had a ton of automotives on board, which I would think is a form of booty. It was in the dang Wikipedia article quote:On 19 November, the car transporter Galaxy Leader was hijacked by the Houthis, with 25 individuals on board.[59] The empty car transporter Kchama posted:Also, so Saudi is unreliable to trust because it is their word against the Houthi, their enemy... The Houthis claim it was full of military supplies. The Saudis disagree. Both sources are suspect. But you guys were insisting that it was the Houthis capturing an innocent Saudi vessel, thus proving the Houthi's evil piracy. Maybe it had military supplies, maybe it didn't. The situation is ambiguous. Which means you can't use it as proof of the Houthis' evil. The nature of the captured vessel is an open question. It's also completely irrelevant, the Houthis are 100% in the clear morally to seize any Saudi vessel getting anywhere near them, for reasons that should be obvious. C'mon, you guys should know that. You're all smart, politically savvy people, you know about what Saudi Arabia is doing in Yemen.
|
#
?
Jan 13, 2024 02:42
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 25, 2024 07:09 |
|
|
Bar Ran Dun posted:Gripweed what you need to ask if they’ve hit any ZIM vessels. If the Houthis are attacking Hot Topic vessels then that really is beyond the pale.
|
|
#
?
Jan 13, 2024 02:42
|
|
|
Grimnarsson posted:Gotta say, it kind of disturbs me that "radicalisation of young men" and "epidemic of isolation among young men" is assumed to be two wholly overlapping circles. No doubt they overlap to some degree, and isolation feeds into radicalisation in many cases, but I'm willing to bet most are not shunned but rather withdrawing because they have no hope. And this is an increasing thing outside the US too, so I don't think it can be boiled down to racial issues. Didn't we already explicitly talk about ways that they overlap AND ways that they don't, including talking about increased suicide rates among men who turn the feeling invoked by their isolation inwards as opposed to those who are radicalized and turn that resentment outwards? I don't think anyone is assuming they are perfect circles, the isolation discussion was a tangent from a discussion of why young men, esp. young white men, are turning increasingly toward reactionary conservatism.
|
|
#
?
Jan 13, 2024 02:43
|
|
|
Gripweed posted:It was in the dang Wikipedia article So... you DON'T Have any proof that it was indeed a military vessel. If the situation is ambiguous, perhaps we should err on the side of "it's not good". You seem to be using this one single vessel as proof that the Houthi aren't performing piracy on civilian vessels, despite you even saying that the Houthi are a suspect source. But uh... you seem to be implying that we were only talking about Saudi ships in a completely different place than the Red Sea. You were the one who brought up that vessel specifically. Mischievous Mink posted:SA is unreliable to trust because they are a dictatorship monarchy that's evil in just about every conceivable way, actually. Well, yes. The Houthi aren't any better mind you, so it's a wash there. But Gripweed was saying they were suspect purely because they were the ones who had their vessel hijacked, and thus were incentivized to lie about it. But the Houthi are also incentivized to lie so... Why believe either? It's still bad to hijack a civilian vessel.
|
|
#
?
Jan 13, 2024 02:49
|
|
|
Gripweed posted:If the Houthis are attacking Hot Topic vessels then that really is beyond the pale. You seem to have a lot of opinions about shipping without knowing what the Israeli shipping line is called. Gripweed posted:The Houthis claim it was full of military supplies. The Saudis disagree. It’s a NYK line vessel. The Houthi’s released video of the hijacking. Watch it. Is there anything on the RO-RO decks?  It’s not loaded, that’s where the vehicles go. There aren’t vehicles there.
|
|
#
?
Jan 13, 2024 02:50
|
|
|
Gripweed posted:You say that like that somehow undermines the whole thing. If the Houthis were attacking ships because of their ongoing situation with the old government of Yemen and Saudi Arabia and that whole mess, or even if they were just doing it for the booty, stepping up those attacks to materially hurt Israel, is still a laudable action. It doesn't materially hurt Israel. At all. Any economic impact is completely insignificant compared to the economic chaos of the conscription - which Israel inflicted on itself. And the attacks certainly are not stopping or meaningfully slowing the shipment of any military-related goods. Anything Israel wants can go around the Red Sea, or be purchased from a different vendor in Europe or the Americas. In any case it didn't take long for the Houthis to give up attacking theoretically Israel-involved ships and have instead been attacking seemingly at random. They even attacked a Russian oil tanker, and possibly a British warship - it's hard to tell on the latter apparently, as the missiles were shot down before reaching their targets. Still, that was likely the last straw for the US/UK.
|
|
#
?
Jan 13, 2024 02:54
|
|
|
Gripweed posted:The situation is ambiguous. No, no it isn’t. The decks are empty and it’s drafting light. Vessels can’t lie about being empty.
|
|
#
?
Jan 13, 2024 02:54
|
|
|
Kchama posted:So... you DON'T Have any proof that it was indeed a military vessel. If the situation is ambiguous, perhaps we should err on the side of "it's not good". I wasn't the one who brought that ship up! It was used by someone arguing against my position, that ship was introduced into the conversation as proof of the Houthis' piracy! You don't get to blame me when an argument for your position falls apart at the slightest poking! Kchama posted:Well, yes. The Houthi aren't any better mind you, so it's a wash there. But Gripweed was saying they were suspect purely because they were the ones who had their vessel hijacked, and thus were incentivized to lie about it. But the Houthi are also incentivized to lie so... Why believe either? It's still bad to hijack a civilian vessel. Because if it was carrying military supplies then it wasn't bad to capture it! You can't say "we don't know which side is right so let's just assume the Houthis are bad". You're also ignoring the point that the Houthis have completely legitimate reasons to at the very least capture and inspect any Saudi ship getting anywhere near Yemen. So even if it was full of daffodils and fluffy socks, the actual "hijacking" part, where they boarded the ship, was still fine.
|
|
#
?
Jan 13, 2024 02:55
|
|
|
Answer my question about your sources.
|
|
#
?
Jan 13, 2024 02:56
|
|
|
Bar Ran Dun posted:You seem to have a lot of opinions about shipping without knowing what the Israeli shipping line is called. Bar Ran Dun posted:No, no it isn’t. The decks are empty and it’s drafting light. Vessels can’t lie about being empty. We're talking about a different ship. We're talking about some Saudi ship that the Houthis captured two years ago. I already said the ship they captured just recently was empty GlyphGryph posted:Answer my question about your sources. I did. You weren't happy about my answer but I don't know what you want me to do about that.
|
|
#
?
Jan 13, 2024 02:58
|
|
|
Gripweed posted:I the Houthis have completely legitimate reasons to at the very least capture and inspect any Saudi ship getting anywhere near Yemen. It’s a Bahamas flagged vessel of a Japanese (NYK)line. https://www.vesselfinder.com/vessels/details/9237307 Literally nothing you are posting is factual.
|
|
#
?
Jan 13, 2024 02:59
|
|
|
Gripweed posted:We're talking about a different ship. We're talking about some Saudi ship that the Houthis captured two years ago. I already said the ship they captured just recently was empty He’s talking about the ship I brought up. And note that that Saudi ship was just one of five that the Houthi hijacked, and the only one they claimed had military equipment.
|
|
#
?
Jan 13, 2024 03:00
|
|
|
Gripweed posted:You're also ignoring the point that the Houthis have completely legitimate reasons to at the very least capture and inspect any Saudi ship getting anywhere near Yemen. So even if it was full of daffodils and fluffy socks, the actual "hijacking" part, where they boarded the ship, was still fine. This is also incorrect. They don’t actually have any justification to board a transiting vessel.
|
|
#
?
Jan 13, 2024 03:01
|
|
|
Bar Ran Dun posted:It’s a Bahamas flagged vessel of a Japanese (NYK)line. We are talking about different ships .
|
|
#
?
Jan 13, 2024 03:03
|
|
|
Gripweed posted:We It doesn’t matter they don’t have any justification to board transiting vessels that aren’t Yemen flagged.
|
|
#
?
Jan 13, 2024 03:05
|
|
|
Me personally? I'm going to defend the quixotic terrorism because there aren't any other good guys to cheer for rn
|
|
#
?
Jan 13, 2024 03:07
|
|
|
Gripweed posted:We No, actually he’s talking about the ship I brought up several times as one they hijacked. You seem to be extremely set on ignoring it and talking about the one ship Houthi said they were justified in attacking, because you don’t have any leg to stand on on any other ship they hijacked.
|
|
#
?
Jan 13, 2024 03:08
|
|
|
Kchama posted:No, actually he’s talking about the ship I brought up several times as one they hijacked. You seem to be extremely set on ignoring it and talking about the one ship Houthi said they were justified in attacking, because you don’t have any leg to stand on on any other ship they hijacked. I wasn't talking about that ship either! I was talking about this one Leon brought up! Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:They have literally been engaging in piracy and hijacking for 8 of the last 10 years straight. These are basic historical facts. And you absolutely were talking about that ship, don't fabricate. Kchama posted:So... you DON'T Have any proof that it was indeed a military vessel. If the situation is ambiguous, perhaps we should err on the side of "it's not good". You were absolutely talking about that ship. Now, on closer reading of that article it turns out it was a UAE ship. I just misread it because I'm arguing with 17 different people at once. And you guys can't get mad at me for misreading that article because you guys couldn't even keep straight what ship we were arguing about. Nobody looks good here.
|
|
#
?
Jan 13, 2024 03:16
|
|
|
Raenir Salazar posted:The debate between german nationalists over the "Small Germany" and "Large Germany" is a pretty well known one and sure technically if you read the argument super literally yes its wrong to suppose there was any such consensus over "where the borders should be"; but reading it more charitably and taking like, the early German anthem for context, "between the rhine and the elbe" is also pretty "rough" for a certain definition of rough. I understand the importance of accuracy but this seems a bit uncharitable and is missing the forest for the trees as to what that poster "meant" for their argument. My dude. People still live in the area that you’re calling a minor technicality. I call some of “my family”. This isn’t some distant thing, history is politics is present. Kindly go gently caress yourself, you little German-splaining twerp.
|
|
#
?
Jan 13, 2024 03:17
|
|
|
Madkal posted:It's pretty much the Dril tweet about ISIS happening in real time. At any rate, the Houthis and ISIS are not remotely comparable. ISIS is monstrous. cat botherer fucked around with this message at 03:23 on Jan 13, 2024 |
|
#
?
Jan 13, 2024 03:19
|
|
|
mobby_6kl posted:Did you miss the whole Ukraine situation? Proportionally I think it's probably not as bad but yeah there's some really wild poo poo out there. I've had wrong takes before myself so I tend to be pretty forgiving of well meaning but misdirected political energy, but there's a level of pure stupidity where I finally lose it, and it has at last been achieved.
|
|
#
?
Jan 13, 2024 03:20
|
|
|
cat botherer posted:Not a great reference in this case, because ISIS has condemned Hamas over 10/7. And of course they’ve always been enemies of the Houthis. Wait what? Link? I haven't heard this at all (or seen any statement from ISIS over 10/7).
|
|
#
?
Jan 13, 2024 03:28
|
|
|
Shooting Blanks posted:Wait what? Link? I haven't heard this at all (or seen any statement from ISIS over 10/7). ISIS is also calling for killings of Jews over Gaza, although consistency has never been their strong suit. It’s been their modus operandi to be violently opposed to any Muslims with ideological differences from themselves, in excess of their vitriol towards non-Muslims. It’s important to understand that Hamas is relatively moderate. They see Ergodan as a model, and don’t enforce Islamic dress or anything like that. It’s more accurate to see them as an organization animated by nationalism and oppression. cat botherer fucked around with this message at 03:53 on Jan 13, 2024 |
|
#
?
Jan 13, 2024 03:44
|
|
|
Gripweed posted:I wasn't talking about that ship either! I was talking about this one Leon brought up! Yes, I talked about it because you talked about it, but before that I talked about a different ship. We only started talking about that specific ship because you focused on it. The article Leon brought up mentioned five ships. Weird how you only focused on one.
|
|
#
?
Jan 13, 2024 03:45
|
|
|
Kchama posted:Yes, I talked about it because you talked about it, but before that I talked about a different ship. We only started talking about that specific ship because you focused on it. The article Leon brought up mentioned five ships. Weird how you only focused on one. I focused on the ship seized by the Houthis We were talking about ships seized by the Houthis. The other five ships in the article were diverted by the Saudis, not seized by the Houthis. OK now I'm thinking the article was just written confusingly, nobody is reading it right.
|
|
#
?
Jan 13, 2024 03:54
|
|
|
Xiahou Dun posted:My dude. People still live in the area that you’re calling a minor technicality. I call some of “my family”. This isn’t some distant thing, history is politics is present. quote:and sure technically if you read the argument super literally yes its wrong You're getting angry at a literal strawman that you're pulling from thin air, and that's the point I'm making; is that you're reading someone's argument in a hyper literal way that results in being unfairly uncharitable to the person you're debating; and I'm right to criticize when you're taking on a combative tone and reading the argument in an unreasonable way. Nothing I said was wrong that I can see, other than to be vaguely discussing historical events over a hundred years and thousands of miles removed from me in a detached tone? Can no one discuss German history or historical geopolitics or context without having family and relatives there? I don't get upset if people talk about Louis Riel like this, and he's literally my ancestor. I didn't disparage you or your family in the least. All I was saying, was that I felt like you were misinterpreting their argument, and now you're misinterpreting me, because I didn't write the thing you think I wrote? I didn't call the area a technicality at all, it was a description of how you were choosing to interpret certain words. Raenir Salazar fucked around with this message at 04:08 on Jan 13, 2024 |
|
#
?
Jan 13, 2024 04:02
|
|
|
a helpful post from the i/p thread about the so-called history of yemeni piracy:Pentecoastal Elites posted:it's been heavily insinuated and outright stated a few times in this thread that the Houthis have consistently practiced piracy for years (?), and that their naval actions recently have not been attempts to help force international hands to stop the genocide of Palestinians, but merely a cover for the opportunistic self-serving piracy that they want to do and have been doing anyway. So, I went to look up Houthi piracy over the years and this is what I found: If this truly is the extent of their maritime aggressive actions, I think its truly disingenuous to refer to this as a pattern of opportunistic piracy when it seems to be clearly focused on anti-KSA actions, a country they were at war with
|
|
#
?
Jan 13, 2024 04:04
|
|
|
A big flaming stink posted:a helpful post from the i/p thread about the so-called history of yemeni piracy: It's not the extent, he's been quoted already showing more evidence. As have you several times in this thread, at this point I can only surmise you are being intentionally dishonest about this, maybe look into why you are so determined to provide cover for genociders.
|
|
#
?
Jan 13, 2024 04:08
|
|
|
A big flaming stink posted:a helpful post from the i/p thread about the so-called history of yemeni piracy: It's not. There were 24 confirmed missile/UAV attacks on ships between 2017 and 2021. There were 16 confirmed from 2014 to 2016. There have been at least 27 confirmed from 2023 through present. There have been 19 hijackings or boardings since 2015. https://www.csis.org/analysis/iranian-and-houthi-war-against-saudi-arabia
|
|
#
?
Jan 13, 2024 04:11
|
|
|
I have my doubts that there's much utility in drawing over generalizations between blocking traffic to show support for Black Lives Matters and using armed force and acts of war against the merchant shipping of neutral nations who aren't party in the conflict using the same logic and argumentation one would use for boycotting starbucks. To use Kantian philosophy as a framework here, capital-S Sovereigns are on their own category/level regarding the categorical imperative; and will do acts that may not fit within the moral or ethical framework of the individual due to the more collective nature of their responsibilities. In short nations typically don't like their stuff being messed with, and unlike "people" in general, nations are amoral self-interested actors who aren't going to be persuaded to a cause through attacks on their shipping or civilians. I don't think that's ever succeeded in the past? What the Houthis should do, if they're legitimate and earnest in their desires, is set up a blockade just like the United States did to Cuba, flagging down and inspecting ships en route to Israeli ports, within sight of Israeli waters. I don't think "Guerilla Warfare but Nelson Edition" is likely going to be as valid as its land based version, because the seas are supposed to be open to all and they're infringing on the common right of all nations. Maybe if they were specifically only targeting Israeli shipping and doing their best to minimize civilian casualties but I'm currently not hearing that they're doing this?
|
|
#
?
Jan 13, 2024 04:24
|
|
|
Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:It is in the NYT times story link. The NYT link says quote:Thursday night’s strikes were the biggest U.S. attack against the Houthis in nearly a decade. In 2016, the United States struck three Houthi missile sites with Tomahawk cruise missiles after the Houthis fired on Navy and commercial vessels. The Houthis’ attacks stopped afterward. I don't see 2014 mentioned, where does that come from?
|
|
#
?
Jan 13, 2024 05:14
|
|
|
DeadlyMuffin posted:The NYT link says 2014 is when the most recent military conflict and civil war started. In early 2015, about 10 million people were starving and the Houthi were collecting a "war tax" from aid ships. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yemeni_civil_war_(2014%E2%80%93present)#Humanitarian_situation
|
|
#
?
Jan 13, 2024 05:46
|
|
|
Gripweed posted:I did. You weren't happy about my answer but I don't know what you want me to do about that. I wasn't happy because you absolutely did not. You were not just casually browsing wikipedia and stumbled upon this article at this specific time and decided to form a novel opinion based on it, and you can't realistically expect any of us to believe that. What I want you to do is to tell the truth. Why are you so keen on us not knowing what the source is for your original opinion? GlyphGryph fucked around with this message at 06:04 on Jan 13, 2024 |
|
#
?
Jan 13, 2024 06:01
|
|
|
Xalidur posted:As a generally Left-For-America Guy (voted for Bernie in both primaries where I could, I'm the president of my union local), I have long had the general belief that Far Left Internet People, if sometimes a bit further out there than I wanted to go, were at least smarter than Right Wingers. The deluge of credulously pro-Houthi takes in effort to score points against the perfidious Joe Biden have sadly forced me to conclude that I was wrong. They are equally as stupid as the right, if not more so. tonight has had some of the shittiest hills people want to die on i seen come by in a while and it just keeps going it has been a real, real dumb 24 hours and its all turning out like some sort of culmination point of weird internet radicalization Angry_Ed posted:Also I don't know why anyone is taking the Houthis at their word that a ship they seized was carrying military equipment. That's like taking the Russians at their word that they're totally only great news, a significant number of people we're hearing from on the subject of "you have to support these attacks or you like genocide" like to do both
|
|
#
?
Jan 13, 2024 11:32
|
|
|
A big flaming stink posted:a helpful post from the i/p thread about the so-called history of yemeni piracy: aside from the general statistics listed by Leon Trotsky 2012, the quoted list rather glaringly leaves off the attack on the Maersk Hangzhou only two weeks ago; four speedboats sprayed the ship with machinegun fire and attempted to board, but got chased off by security guards and then most of the speedboats got sunk by the navy. That was two weeks ago. it's also the case that the Houthi actions are not taking place in a vacuum. One has to ask just how many ships the Houthis would seize or sink were it not for the sustained security patrols discouraging them.
|
|
#
?
Jan 13, 2024 11:59
|
|
|
vaguely recall some poo poo where a maersk ship got attacked and the people attacking the ship then got hosed up, and afterwards they told the US that they were ready to go to Forever War if the US didn't hand over the military personnel that obliterated their pirate boat crew if that was the houthis (guess it had to be, where else maersk ships getting attacked) i guess im less surprised it escalated to retaliatory strikes on land from multiple countries
|
|
#
?
Jan 13, 2024 12:24
|
|
|
Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:How are they trying to stop a genocide by doing the same thing they have been doing since 2014? And 0 of the ships they have attacked have been Israeli. Taking that at face value given all the information, evidence, and history of the situation is incredibly credulous to the point that I have a bridge in New York to sell you. So I know I'm responding to this late, but it bugged me how you just posted an image for the slavery thing and didn't link a source. It's probably worth mentioning that the only source for that claim is the Saudi owned Asharq Al-Awsat which might have a reason to publish something untrue about the Houthis in Yemen. If they were truly, to quote that article, "working tirelessly to restore slavery in Yemen" you would suspect there might be another story about that than this one in 2019 from the paper owned by the state-backed Saudi Research and Media Group. e: Like there are actual stories from credible sources about slavery and human trafficking in Yemen going back quite a while, including recent reports about the Houthis (and others), you could have used and not what seems pretty straight forwardly like propaganda from a Saudi controlled newspaper TGLT fucked around with this message at 13:25 on Jan 13, 2024 |
|
#
?
Jan 13, 2024 13:02
|
|
|
Don't think this will work for long given the internal dynamics of the republican caucus https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/congress/moderate-democrats-say-help-mike-johnson-keep-job-speaker-rcna133711 quote:Moderate Democrats say they'd save Speaker Mike Johnson if the right tries to oust him
|
|
#
?
Jan 13, 2024 14:48
|
|
|
Charlz Guybon posted:Don't think this will work for long given the internal dynamics of the republican caucus I am ok with that. If Johnson plays ball he has protection, if he doesn’t, he is new McCarthy. Plus it triggers chud infighting.
|
|
#
?
Jan 13, 2024 14:52
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 25, 2024 07:09 |
|
|
McCarthy could have probably saved himself too if he offered anything. Instead the weekend before his ouster he was still blasting the Dems over some nonsense lol
|
|
#
?
Jan 13, 2024 16:28
|
|
