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Joe Slowboat posted:If she’s actually the oldest and the strongest and could actually be the big bad and all that… why did she give a flying gently caress what Mottom thought about her when it looked like Jagganoth could lose? Because she's bored as hell. e: Also because maybe Zoss is terrible about save scumming and would reset because things didn't work out in a utopia even if they beat Jagganoth.
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Jan 13, 2024 03:40
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Joe Slowboat posted:If she’s actually the oldest and the strongest and could actually be the big bad and all that… why did she give a flying gently caress what Mottom thought about her when it looked like Jagganoth could lose? She's vain, self-centered and incredibly narcissistic while simulateously being nihilistic as poo poo. She wants them to admit that they need her, and knows she'll survive to the next cycle regardless, why does she care if they lose the fight.
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Jan 13, 2024 03:42
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Joe Slowboat posted:If she’s actually the oldest and the strongest and could actually be the big bad and all that… why did she give a flying gently caress what Mottom thought about her when it looked like Jagganoth could lose? GunnerJ posted:You wonder if she goes through a little effort like that every few cycles just on the off chance that something different might happen. Her "deflated" response to Mottom becomes less about how insulted she feels than just, "Welp, nothing new this time either"
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Jan 13, 2024 03:46
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Rotten Red Rod posted:Yeah, that's my take. Jadis knows everything, past and future, of THIS cycle. Gog has memory of all the past cycles, but not the future. metatron lives
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Jan 13, 2024 03:53
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she got upstaged this is wonderful god this loving comic
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Jan 13, 2024 03:54
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habeasdorkus posted:Because she's bored as hell. Zoss overlooked, of all his dark arts, the importance of hamming correction
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Jan 13, 2024 03:56
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GunnerJ posted:You wonder if she goes through a little effort like that every few cycles just on the off chance that something different might happen. Her "deflated" response to Mottom becomes less about how insulted she feels than just, "Welp, nothing new this time either" excuse me I need to reread that entire chapter
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Jan 13, 2024 03:57
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berenzen posted:She's vain, self-centered and incredibly narcissistic while simulateously being nihilistic as poo poo. She wants them to admit that they need her, and knows she'll survive to the next cycle regardless, why does she care if they lose the fight. She even spells out out in this very page; She's sick and tired of being relegated to the audience while everyone else takes center-stage.
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Jan 13, 2024 04:05
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Joe Slowboat posted:If she’s actually the oldest and the strongest and could actually be the big bad and all that… why did she give a flying gently caress what Mottom thought about her when it looked like Jagganoth could lose? I think she could defeat the big red guy, but she knows she can't stop Zoss from running the spacetime continuum backwards, I think she's seen so many attempts at doing things differently that have all lead to the same result and she can no longer imagine any different outcome. So why try?
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Jan 13, 2024 04:17
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Does she rizz every heir or is Allison special?
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Jan 13, 2024 04:23
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YaketySass posted:Next page is Allison trying to guess and going through the entire cast. "Are you loving serious, it's that giant baby dude?"
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Jan 13, 2024 04:28
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Joe Slowboat posted:If she’s actually the oldest and the strongest and could actually be the big bad and all that… why did she give a flying gently caress what Mottom thought about her when it looked like Jagganoth could lose? Two guesses: If she drat near won the first few times only to have big Z erase her victory every time, then she might not make the effort to become the strongest and toughest anymore. Why bother playing when the game is rigged? OR She can't beat Jagganoth anymore because too much of her potential strength is being reserved Remembering past cycles. She's won't commit her full strength because that would mean sacrificing her memories for for a victory that won't be permanent — and on behalf of a bunch of idiots who won't even pretend to respect her.
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Jan 13, 2024 04:53
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Gog's expression after Alison asks how many times the world has been reset is fuckin chilling man
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Jan 13, 2024 04:54
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I wonder she took up Jagg's role on occasion. She implied that she ended the universe herself at least a couple times.
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Jan 13, 2024 05:11
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I think Gog not being clear on the start of the loops is less her being unimportant during them and more— as she said— a lack of physical data storage. She had to forget the early parts to make room for later, and realized she needed to think bigger.
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Jan 13, 2024 05:12
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Joe Slowboat posted:Well, I was wrong… but honestly I’m a bit sad I was wrong, because I don’t actually like the recontextualization of Gog into “Jadis 2: Clown Jadis” This is still fundamentally who gog is and was, though. After all...  "The Mass Remembers" really stuck with me as one of her core lines, a moment of genuine sincerity. What she has isn't really anything like what Jadis has, and how she feels about it definitely isn't anything like how Jadis feels about. Gog's knowledge seems is more akin to a version of Zoss with a more reliable memory than anything. Gog is still in full control of her actions, she is still just capable of being surprised, she is still clearly actually alive. Joe Slowboat posted:If she’s actually the oldest and the strongest and could actually be the big bad and all that… why did she give a flying gently caress what Mottom thought about her when it looked like Jagganoth could lose? She's immortal and powerful and ancient and has a very good memory, but that doesn't preclude her also being petty and holding a grudge, especially if she feels like none of this really matters and is only ultimately entertaining herself. I imagine she's got something a lot like Super European Laborer Sibling at this point and is really just doing her best to make the best of it https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G87p148EOjo GlyphGryph fucked around with this message at 05:33 on Jan 13, 2024 |
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Jan 13, 2024 05:20
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Pattonesque posted:Gog's expression after Alison asks how many times the world has been reset is fuckin chilling man It's disturbing, I love it!
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Jan 13, 2024 05:25
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Bongo Bill posted:In the chaos of the Universal War, all sorts of different weirdos can end up with a Key of Kings, but certain people are more disposed to it than others. It's always Jagganoth, but it's not always Mottom, for instance. I know most everyone disagreed with my reading of this page: https://killsixbilliondemons.com/comic/wheel-smashing-lord-1-3/ that Maya had a sense of having been killed by Jaggs in previous cycles at this juncture. Or at least that that Maya was voicing a literal truth she was personally unaware of though hyperbole. But it does fit with the idea of the roles changing as perceived by Jaggs and Gog, and that Stinky isn't always a demiurge or maybe neither Maya or Stinks survive through each cycle.
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Jan 13, 2024 06:29
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do you think gog was always worms or is this basically saying that becoming a gestalt was a willful adaptation
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Jan 13, 2024 06:32
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What was Gog's gimmick last reset? I'm gonna guess it was cottage core.
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Jan 13, 2024 06:36
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Potato Salad posted:do you think gog was always worms or is this basically saying that becoming a gestalt was a willful adaptation I think Gog might have been a lady but had “on being decapitated your blood should still murder multiple enemies” big sword energy and the worms eating her body ended up getting infused with her will because she decided to just not die? That’s my wild guess just based on things like the cycle of decay, what happens after you die, eating, etc. themes in the comic. What proportion of worm-to-dead-body ratio can ship of theseus’s a worm back into a person.
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Jan 13, 2024 06:49
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habeasdorkus posted:What was Gog's gimmick last reset? I'm gonna guess it was cottage core. Vaporwave.
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Jan 13, 2024 06:59
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Gog must have been so excited the first few thousand resets when she still believed she could win if she did just a bit better. Love that look of profound suffering and madness when Allison asks how many resets there were.
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Jan 13, 2024 08:03
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coolusername posted:I think Gog might have been a lady but had “on being decapitated your blood should still murder multiple enemies” big sword energy and the worms eating her body ended up getting infused with her will because she decided to just not die? That’s my wild guess just based on things like the cycle of decay, what happens after you die, eating, etc. themes in the comic. What proportion of worm-to-dead-body ratio can ship of theseus’s a worm back into a person.
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Jan 13, 2024 08:17
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Tiny Myers posted:Time is a circle and Gog is actually Allison. You can tell because if you rearrange Gog-Agog you get Oaogggg-, which sounds like a noise of pain, and also you can't spell Allison without at least two of those letters. 
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Jan 13, 2024 08:19
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Elissimpark posted:I think we might not have touched on it during Jadis-chat, but it's likely she's only omniscient as far as the current spin goes. As far as she's aware, the world ends. Zoss spinning everything back (like a giant pencil in the cassette tape of reality) is from outside the wheel, so she doesn't know that's happening and maybe, due to her circumstances, is unable of becoming aware of it. It's a much more interesting story if one accepts Jadis as genuinely omniscient, not a hyperbolic term for sort of moderately knowledgeable as major characters go; and Jagganoth as genuinely invincible in battle, not a hyperbolic term for he's tough like every videogame boss you defeat by hitting in the glowing weak spot with the macguffin. What's been emphasized in every retelling of the whole Zoss spinning the wheel thing is we're not talking mere thousands of iterations of the same story ending in failure. Beyond measure, beyond all probability, nobody has once succeeded in breaking the cycle. It's surely not for lack of Heirs getting a little coaching in an ultimate martial arts technique from their own cryptic Mr. Miyagi figure, or heroes banding together in the face of certain doom, or any of this extremely standard stuff on the heroic arc Zoss sets up.
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Jan 13, 2024 08:28
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Remalle posted:Gog is without a doubt fully aware of the 4th wall, but breaking it is just sooo played out at this point.  coolusername posted:Any chance it’s Shot Marilyns? no, it's def... something. Not this but something. I need to ruminate for like a kalpa or w/e. When she's saying three my brain's like "yo you totally remember this, from memory not found  "
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Jan 13, 2024 10:18
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SniperWoreConverse posted:no, it's def... something. Not this but something. I need to ruminate for like a kalpa or w/e. When she's saying three my brain's like "yo you totally remember this, from memory not found Have you considered becoming an ever-expanding mass of worms so you remember all there is to remember? Because I know a girl who can help with that. Bussamove fucked around with this message at 10:44 on Jan 13, 2024 |
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Jan 13, 2024 10:41
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SniperWoreConverse posted:
it's giving me Joan of Arc vibes 
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Jan 13, 2024 10:59
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A Wizard of Goatse posted:It's a much more interesting story if one accepts Jadis as genuinely omniscient, not a hyperbolic term for sort of moderately knowledgeable as major characters go; and Jagganoth as genuinely invincible in battle, not a hyperbolic term for he's tough like every videogame boss you defeat by hitting in the glowing weak spot with the macguffin. What's been emphasized in every retelling of the whole Zoss spinning the wheel thing is we're not talking mere thousands of iterations of the same story ending in failure. Beyond measure, beyond all probability, nobody has once succeeded in breaking the cycle. It's surely not for lack of Heirs getting a little coaching in an ultimate martial arts technique from their own cryptic Mr. Miyagi figure, or heroes banding together in the face of certain doom, or any of this extremely standard stuff on the heroic arc Zoss sets up. I fully agree with this.
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Jan 13, 2024 12:24
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A Wizard of Goatse posted:It's a much more interesting story if one accepts Jadis as genuinely omniscient, not a hyperbolic term for sort of moderately knowledgeable as major characters go; and Jagganoth as genuinely invincible in battle, not a hyperbolic term for he's tough like every videogame boss you defeat by hitting in the glowing weak spot with the macguffin. What's been emphasized in every retelling of the whole Zoss spinning the wheel thing is we're not talking mere thousands of iterations of the same story ending in failure. Beyond measure, beyond all probability, nobody has once succeeded in breaking the cycle. It's surely not for lack of Heirs getting a little coaching in an ultimate martial arts technique from their own cryptic Mr. Miyagi figure, or heroes banding together in the face of certain doom, or any of this extremely standard stuff on the heroic arc Zoss sets up. okay but if that is true, how do you see the story playing out because this sounds like Jadis reasoning "you can't change anything so why bother"
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Jan 13, 2024 12:48
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You keep trying, because Jadis is a fool not a furious dumbass. lol
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Jan 13, 2024 13:01
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Gravitas Shortfall posted:okay but if that is true, how do you see the story playing out because this sounds like Jadis reasoning "you can't change anything so why bother" Immortality and omnescience in the context of the wheel, I'd assume; all power bets are off once the wheel is broken. My personal expectation is that nothing within the cycle will change, and nobody within the cycle can effect change, until someone outside the cycle can break it (or more specifically, prevent Zoss from resetting it again, regardless of whether his preferred outcome happens or not). So far everyone is very much within the cycle, regardless of how aware of it they are; I feel like it's going to be a tossup of "does this cycle end with a character we know ejected from the wheel once it ends, who then goes on to break the wheel next time around" or "is this cycle going to be affected by a character whose face we know who did that already and is just waiting to make their move"
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Jan 13, 2024 13:11
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This stuff at least sheds some light on why Gog might have taken a shine to Allison. If Allison is indeed something new (Instead of Zaid or whoever always being the heir), then that would have been some kind of breath of fresh air. Especially given that Gog has effectively been forced to see this same story otherwise play out countless times. Not expecting that Gog would believe that Allison has a chance of breaking the wheel or whatever, but it's probably novel in a "oh hey that's kinda neat" sort of way for her.
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Jan 13, 2024 13:15
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JuniperCake posted:This stuff at least sheds some light on why Gog might have taken a shine to Allison. If Allison is indeed something new (Instead of Zaid or whoever always being the heir), then that would have been some kind of breath of fresh air. Especially given that Gog has effectively been forced to see this same story otherwise play out countless times. I mean the way she says "not you" at the end there seems to imply Allison isn't a wild card, or at least not a wild card by herself. maybe gog's just had a lot of lifetimes to fondly reminisce about someone who didn't eat the worm in any universe and always remained an external audience that laughs at her clowning at the end of the world
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Jan 13, 2024 13:22
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Gravitas Shortfall posted:okay but if that is true, how do you see the story playing out because this sounds like Jadis reasoning "you can't change anything so why bother" Think the two likely outcomes are: 1) Allison faces off against certain doom knowing she'll fail out of some absurdist position (that makes her essentially become another one of Metatron's lackeys, but it's also Royal or whatever), or 2) She changes something about what comes next. Note that this doesn't invalidate Jadis's omniscience, since Jadis never really said anything about the failure of Allison's quest, but it does invalidate Gog's fatalism.
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Jan 13, 2024 13:58
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I'm also curious how unique this cycle is. Like, I wonder if White Chain's transformation has happened in any other cycles. I suppose we have one piece of evidence that this cycle is different - one of our protagonist's names is Wheel Smashing Lord. It'd be a bit odd for that to be her name if she never does it.
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Jan 13, 2024 14:07
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Ursine Catastrophe posted:I mean the way she says "not you" at the end there seems to imply Allison isn't a wild card, or at least not a wild card by herself. Yeah I'm inclined to think that Allison's not a brand new addition to the script - "the key ends up in the heir's girlfriend instead of the heir" doesn't sound like something so impossibly rare to only have happened once in the endless cycles Gog has lived through. Also now that we have this as context, Gog saying that she's a "big fan" of Allison during their first meeting kinda implied that Allison is a recurring character in the cycles, and when she seemed genuinely surprised at how Allison didn't measure up to the contestants in Solomon's tournament, that also implied she already had a prior idea of Allison's ability, despite them just meeting each other. Originally I thought she just assumed Allison was stronger than she was at the time, given that Allison had survived Mottom and Mammon, but now I'm thinking she might possibly have known some Allisons in the past cycles who had reached our current Allison's level, but when they first met, our Allison hadn't been at that level yet. Not that any of that is concrete evidence, though. And we'll probably know soon enough regardless.
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Jan 13, 2024 14:13
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My guess is it was Maya who formed the pact and ruled. She seems like the ruling type. You know, because she rules. But, I'm willing to accept 2Michael as a wild card. Like cycle 3 or something, just going 'gently caress it, what if I surpass the conquering king? cause gently caress that guy' and Zoss just furiously slamming the reset button.
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Jan 13, 2024 14:14
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Ursine Catastrophe posted:I mean the way she says "not you" at the end there seems to imply Allison isn't a wild card, or at least not a wild card by herself. Yeah of course. The demiurges who acknowledge Allison all seem to "appreciate" her for what they think they can get out of her. Incubus wants a Maya v2.0, Mottom wants Allison to take her place, Jagg just wants her key, etc etc. Gog might just be interested in getting an audience that isn't her (possibly anyways. Guess we'll find out what she actually wants soon enough). Though, it all feeds into whatever mess they've currently trapped themselves in. None of them seem to think escape is possible (except Jagg but obviously his method is wrong) let alone that Allison could play some real role in it. YaketySass posted:
Yeah that's the difference here. Gog can make choices. she just doesn't believe there is a reason to do anything. She's also fallible and can be wrong about the future. She knows a lot of what happened before but not everything and is just assuming the future isn't going to change. Jadis is the one who actually knows everything and she never said how this would end if at all. We just know that Allison will die in 35 years. So that leaves a lot of room for things to happen. In this page Gog is probably talking about herself right? It would explain the chip on her shoulder when the other demiurges don't acknowledge her. And we had that one post saying that she would be the most powerful demiurge if she had her poo poo together. Presumably that was the case in the first few couple of cycles. JuniperCake fucked around with this message at 14:31 on Jan 13, 2024 |
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Jan 13, 2024 14:22
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