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Stringent posted:You find it incredibly difficult to take at face value an organization whose flag contains "Death to Israel, A curse upon the Jews" is attacking Israeli shipping as an act of solidarity with the Palestinians? Sure, I can go into it a bit more. I find it hard to accept, at face value, any claims or statements the Houthi's make about this conflict given the aforementioned flag, their actions against ships, but more importantly the brutality they've subjected their own people to; some stories I've linked, a UN security council report covering the Yemen war contains examples from both sides of the conflict. This is an organisation that is a blight on its own people, and treats them horrendously. I find their claims of helping other people in acts of solidarity to be laughable. In terms of the ships they've attacked, many of them have no link to Israel, which leads me to several conclusions: a) they’re using the Israeli Gaza conflict as an excuse for any attack, in a continuation of attacks on ships prior to the war; b) given they’ve targeted non Israeli ships, it leads me to believe they don’t care for which ships they are attacking (considering they attacked a Russian oil tanker not 24 hours ago, and multiple non Israeli linked ships in the past few months, I'm going to assume this is the case); and c) given their continued attacks against ships in the face of warnings, they are clearly exacerbating these situations and are not looking for a peaceful resolution, which is almost entirely up to them to pursue. And in terms of the flag; I honestly think it speaks for itself.
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Jan 13, 2024 06:16
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DeadlyMuffin posted:It's the last paragraph Oh weird, I typically use wayback to bypass the pay wall and it didn't have a good chunk of the article add it appears on my phone. Maybe a bad scrape? I'll read up on this when I have a moment
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Jan 13, 2024 06:28
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I love when people complain about piracy when there’s a super power who could’ve put a stop at this genocide and piracy by not supplying them. The twisted knots of liberals man (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jan 13, 2024 07:23
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Kavros posted:Again, the houthis have been engaging in this opportunistic piracy for a long time, and without the support of anyone that they're now supposedly trying to help by "forcing international action on Gaza." Nothing changed except that israeli-led destabilization of the area was an excellent ideological cover for "let's kill/kidnap more merchant mariners and take their stuff" — which is an act they've successfully threaded the needle on before now. So we are allowed to just spout state propaganda without sources?
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Jan 13, 2024 07:32
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Google Jeb Bush posted:I really don't think this is a useful question regarding Ansar Allah* missile and drone attacks. Unless you think they have the ability to reliably ensure that they damage ships with explosives without inflicting injury or death, which I'm not sure anybody does, there are only two possible conclusions. One is that they're deliberately not hitting ships, in which case there is no actual threat and also there would not be the occasional struck ship. The other is that they're just lucky, in which case the argument isn't very solid at all, because one of the missiles they are randomly hucking at essentially random ships could kill sailors tomorrow. If you give a poo poo about that possibility, you probably shouldn't be arguing for "what if they keep being lucky" as a justification. I'm not making an argument. I genuinely do not know whether the Houthis have killed or injured anyone with their actions, and y'all seem to be following it pretty closely. It appears the answer is that they have not.
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Jan 13, 2024 07:47
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ASIC v Danny Bro posted:
You do realize that they were at war with Saudi Arabia from 2015 to a cease fire in 2022 right? A Turkish ship getting attacked leaving a Saudi port in a war zone is an easy mistake, not piracy. Likewise, briefly detaining two South Korean ships and then releasing them is also not piracy. Both actions actually conform to expected behaviors by belligerents. In fact, compared to the West's own history of warfare involving freight shipping, its very restrained.
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Jan 13, 2024 09:01
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Vernii posted:You do realize that they were at war with Saudi Arabia from 2015 to a cease fire in 2022 right? A Turkish ship getting attacked leaving a Saudi port in a war zone is an easy mistake, not piracy. Likewise, briefly detaining two South Korean ships and then releasing them is also not piracy. Both actions actually conform to expected behaviors by belligerents. In fact, compared to the West's own history of warfare involving freight shipping, its very restrained. Is that what we are calling attacks on civilians now? Easy mistakes? Holy loving poo poo. “Expected behaviour of belligerents” does not mean we have to accept them launching attacks against civilians. Just loving kill me lol.
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Jan 13, 2024 09:06
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What are the acceptable list of effective actions for a group like the Houthis when engaged in a war?
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Jan 13, 2024 09:15
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Google Jeb Bush posted:PE: saw your post, can't immediately look things up and the my knowledge of pre-2023 Houthi piracy is secondhand recollection anyway, consider my implication of historical piracy withdrawn unless I provide evidence otherwise. You seem to be very insistent on the assertion that they were engaging in "piracy" while also ignoring that they were embroiled in a regional war for almost the entire past decade. Literally the only examples of 'piracy' during that time period that have been posted ITT were against ships operating under enemy flag and/or operating out of enemy ports. ASIC v Danny Bro posted:Is that what we are calling attacks on civilians now? Easy mistakes? Holy loving poo poo. I have some really bad news for you about the entire history of naval warfare and accepted practices. poo poo, even the Israeli excuse for shooting up the USS Liberty and killing 34 American sailors was that they thought it was an Egyptian freighter.
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Jan 13, 2024 09:18
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Vernii posted:I have some really bad news for you about the entire history of naval warfare and accepted practices. poo poo, even the Israeli excuse for shooting up the USS Liberty and killing 34 American sailors was that they thought it was an Egyptian freighter. Hey, I’m the one here who is saying targeting civilians and civilian ships is bad and apparently we have people who think otherwise. Incompetence in mid-identifying ships isn’t an excuse here.
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Jan 13, 2024 09:21
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Demiurge4 posted:What are the acceptable list of effective actions for a group like the Houthis when engaged in a war? It's been obvious since October 7th, but this post really draws out the fact that for some people the core outrage of what Israel is doing in Gaza is that they aren't on the poster's list of countries that are allowed to indiscriminately attack civilians. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jan 13, 2024 09:24
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Demiurge4 posted:What are the acceptable list of effective actions for a group like the Houthis when engaged in a war? As we can see the list does not include firing missiles at civilian shipping and uninvolved countries warships.
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Jan 13, 2024 09:26
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knox_harrington posted:As we can see the list does not include firing missiles at civilian shipping and uninvolved countries warships. "For the high crime of being 20% owned by an Israeli billionaire, I sentence you and your ship to be fired upon."
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Jan 13, 2024 09:36
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Alchenar posted:It's been obvious since October 7th, but this post really draws out the fact that for some people the core outrage of what Israel is doing in Gaza is that they aren't on the poster's list of countries that are allowed to indiscriminately attack civilians. I am not so sure on that. I think that there is the scale difference here, primarily in the amount of people harmed, through belligerent action. There will still be judgements based on who is doing it but also the scale and meaning behind the actions matters.
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Jan 13, 2024 09:47
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I rarely post on these lovely forums - just wanted to pop in and say that over the past few days of reading this thread I've been pretty disgusted by those of you who keep deflecting away from Israel's genocide. I hope you all take a hard look in the mirror and try to recognize you sound like awful people desperately clutching your pearls and hoping for an opportunity to win an argument on the internet. Thoughts and prayers to all of your families and friends who have to listen to you offline. Thank you to those of you who have taken the time to try to argue your points in favor of human beings being able to have basic access to their needs. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST) Beaucoup Cuckoo fucked around with this message at 09:53 on Jan 13, 2024 |
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Jan 13, 2024 09:50
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Josef bugman posted:I am not so sure on that. I think that there is the scale difference here, primarily in the amount of people harmed, through belligerent action. There will still be judgements based on who is doing it but also the scale and meaning behind the actions matters. I don't think it is a scale difference for some people - that's a fallback argument that comes out (not accusing you of anything! And there are multiple groups of people with different views). The first argument that comes out on Oct 7th and here is 'it is absolutely fine and good for these groups to adopt these methods'. Then we get 'it's fine for them to try and murder civilians by launching rockets at them because actually they are bad at it' and that gets repeated a lot but for obvious reasons nobody tries to explain their logic on that one. Then finally those people will move to 'if you have to pick someone to intervene against to make this all stop, it's the party causing orders of magnitude more harm' but is something that people can have a real conversation about but isn't what they actually think.
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Jan 13, 2024 09:53
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Beaucoup Cuckoo posted:I rarely post on these lovely forums - just wanted to pop in and say that over the past few days of reading this thread I've been pretty disgusted by those of you who keep deflecting away from Israel's genocide. Considering the deflection that has gone on for the October 7 attacks in this thread, the feeling is mutual.
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Jan 13, 2024 10:00
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Alchenar posted:I don't think it is a scale difference for some people - that's a fallback argument that comes out (not accusing you of anything! And there are multiple groups of people with different views). The first argument that comes out on Oct 7th and here is 'it is absolutely fine and good for these groups to adopt these methods'. Then we get 'it's fine for them to try and murder civilians by launching rockets at them because actually they are bad at it' and that gets repeated a lot but for obvious reasons nobody tries to explain their logic on that one. Then finally those people will move to 'if you have to pick someone to intervene against to make this all stop, it's the party causing orders of magnitude more harm' but is something that people can have a real conversation about but isn't what they actually think. I don't think what people "actually think" really matters tbh. We often don't know why we think what we do and our analysis is inherently flawed because we are doing it about ourselves, so the best we can do is sort through the arguments and see where we go and how they match up with reality. There's no point assuming people who say that "they care about Palestinian lives but [insert anti-palestinian talking points here]" really do support the Palestinian cause in their heart of hearts because the arguments made are what matter. It's why assuming that some people just have "anything the US does is bad apriori" is not helpful because even if they do believe it, the arguments are still there. It's like the old saying of "And you are lynching Negros" , just because the person arguing it is using it as a cudgel it does not mean that the argument is wrong. I am sorry if this counts as a derail. Will have a read of more stuff instead of posting.
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Jan 13, 2024 10:03
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ASIC v Danny Bro posted:Considering the deflection that has gone on for the October 7 attacks in this thread, the feeling is mutual.
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Jan 13, 2024 10:40
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pumpinglemma posted:How many Palestinian civilians have to be murdered before October 7 stops being an acceptable justification, in your mind? Please give your answer in the form of a ratio of dead Palestinian civilians to dead Israeli civilians. Like a moth to a flame, really. How many victims of October 7 did you think were justifiable targets? ASIC v Danny Bro fucked around with this message at 10:56 on Jan 13, 2024 |
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Jan 13, 2024 10:53
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Israel is killing tens of thousands right now but what's really important is shipping profits and an attack three months ago. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jan 13, 2024 11:20
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ASIC v Danny Bro posted:Not certain - I haven't looked at all the reporting. Ah yes, but it's okay when the US and UK obliterate Yemen because:
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Jan 13, 2024 11:28
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ASIC v Danny Bro posted:Like a moth to a flame, really.
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Jan 13, 2024 11:34
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pumpinglemma posted:You see, this is an easy question: only the serving IDF personnel, which if I remember correctly were roughly 300 of them. Now it’s your turn to answer my question. Does that include the ones who were captured, unarmed, then executed?
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Jan 13, 2024 11:39
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ASIC v Danny Bro posted:Does that include the ones who were captured, unarmed, then executed? Citation Needed
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Jan 13, 2024 11:40
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BARONS CYBER SKULL posted:Citation Needed Oh hey, I know this one! They escaped from Hamas, and then the IDF executed them, while they were unarmed and begging for help in Hebrew. E: sorry, you wanted a citation, so here's a reputable source. HazCat fucked around with this message at 11:56 on Jan 13, 2024 |
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Jan 13, 2024 11:53
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HazCat posted:Oh hey, I know this one! Nah, it's the video where the soldiers are on their knees, in a room, then the video cuts and shows them dead on the floor. I know you have it somewhere.
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Jan 13, 2024 11:56
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ASIC v Danny Bro posted:Does that include the ones who were captured, unarmed, then executed?
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Jan 13, 2024 11:59
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151 Palestinians were killed yesterday. Yet another hospital is suffering from the genocide. https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/1/13/blackout-in-gazas-al-aqsa-hospital-as-fuel-runs-out-babies-at-high-risk Still no one helps them.
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Jan 13, 2024 12:00
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hadji murad posted:151 Palestinians were killed yesterday. Israel needs to stop its evil, forever.
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Jan 13, 2024 12:04
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pumpinglemma posted:If that is true, then no it doesn’t. You still haven’t answered my question, so I’ll repeat it. How many Palestinian civilians have to be murdered before October 7 stops being an acceptable justification, in your mind? Please give your answer in the form of a ratio of dead Palestinian civilians to dead Israeli civilians. 0. If you honestly think people here are celebrating Palestinian civilian deaths, you're wrong. Any criticism I have is limited to the ones engaging in armed acts of aggression against civilians or soldiers who have been unarmed. I've been pretty consistent with that. ASIC v Danny Bro fucked around with this message at 12:13 on Jan 13, 2024 |
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Jan 13, 2024 12:11
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Kchama posted:Israel needs to stop its evil, forever. some of my favorite war analyzer takes are when they try to work out precisely how improbable it would be that the IDF wasn't intentionally trying to do all this poo poo
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Jan 13, 2024 12:13
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ASIC v Danny Bro posted:I know you have it somewhere. Based on this phrasing I'm going to assume your source isn't the mainstream media. So where did you see that video? Twitter? Tiktok? Those weird sites where the Ukraine fans get all their Russian snuff videos from? Note that I don't watch combat footage so this is not a request for a link to the video. I'd just like to know what your source was, since it's material you apparently need to 'have somewhere' and not just something verified that the press has discussed.
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Jan 13, 2024 12:14
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ASIC v Danny Bro posted:0. Then israel should end its zionist mission and accept palestinians as equal mbers of their society instead of genociding them over 70+ years
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Jan 13, 2024 12:21
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Alchenar posted:It's been obvious since October 7th, but this post really draws out the fact that for some people the core outrage of what Israel is doing in Gaza is that they aren't on the poster's list of countries that are allowed to indiscriminately attack civilians. It's a question of scale and the manner of harm involved. Civilian shipping is a great phrase to pull out to frame it as terrorism but the actual ships involved are mega tankers and cargo ships with minimal crew, and the crew sections of a ship like that is a very small percentage and usually situated above the hull itself. The Houthis have been targeting shipping for apparently 10 years and haven't killed anyone yet so the harm seems to be all economic delays, we routinely sanction nations for much greater harm and less returns. The gist of my question is basically what can the Houthis do that anyone would recognize as legitimate and effective action to impact Israel? Should they only target military ships with defensive capabilities at great risk to themselves and probably no real damage? And if so who's military ships? Israel doesn't keep patrols there, the US and UK apparently does that for them and I guess they've now painted themselves as a legitimate target.
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Jan 13, 2024 12:47
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ASIC v Danny Bro posted:Nah, it's the video where the soldiers are on their knees, in a room, then the video cuts and shows them dead on the floor. Maybe you could shut up about October 7th and the snuff films you've watched, and understand that even if Hamas were literally eating babies, it wouldn't justify the subsequent 4 months of genocide Israel has been doing. Israel is pulling the same dumb argument at the UN. You don't get to do a genocide because someone attacked you, nor does the Holocaust give you a freebie to do one to someone else. The pearl clutching about the Houthis is also pointless. They are claiming to be blockading Israel to oppose a genocide. Whether you believe them is irrelevant. It is enough that the shipping companies believe them. Eilat has seen substantially reduced traffic. This puts economic pressure on Israel to stop the genocide. The rerouting of traffic also gives US-aligned countries an economic reason to want the genocide to stop. You may believe the Houthis are simply using this as an excuse to do piracy. It doesn't matter. The effect of their actions aligns with their claimed goals. What they have in their heart of hearts is completely beside the point. You claim to care about Palestinians, but you seem to spend all your time focusing on the crimes of Hamas and the Houthis, and ignoring the much larger and on-going crime of genocide, and the preceding decades of oppression. Literally every single post of yours in this thread has been criticism of the enemies of Israel, or trying to sow doubt about the crimes of Israel. You never directly say you support the genocide, you just avoid talking about it in favor of talking about what bad guys Israel's enemies are. The most charitable possible reading of your posts is that you're the white moderate MLK was talking about.
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Jan 13, 2024 12:49
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ASIC v Danny Bro posted:Considering the deflection that has gone on for the October 7 attacks in this thread, the feeling is mutual. What would your ideal Israeli response to October 7 look like? Are you happy with the Israeli response to date?
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Jan 13, 2024 12:49
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ASIC v Danny Bro posted:0.
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Jan 13, 2024 13:03
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Demiurge4 posted:It's a question of scale and the manner of harm involved. Civilian shipping is a great phrase to pull out to frame it as terrorism but the actual ships involved are mega tankers and cargo ships with minimal crew, and the crew sections of a ship like that is a very small percentage and usually situated above the hull itself. The Houthis have been targeting shipping for apparently 10 years and haven't killed anyone yet so the harm seems to be all economic delays, we routinely sanction nations for much greater harm and less returns. I assume people call it civilian shipping because it's.. civilian shipping. And they haven't killed anyone but they have taken hostages and poo poo like that, which is very much not harmless. Also it's pretty weird to say that attacking civilians is easy therefore it is what they should be doing. Nobody should be doing that on any side. Israel doesn't have ships patrol there because it's not route that Israel runs and does not run much shipping through there. People would probably be a good deal less upset if they WERE attacking Israel shipping and not just attacking Russians while shouting that it is a blow struck against Israel.
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Jan 13, 2024 13:05
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ASIC v Danny Bro posted:Nah, it's the video where the soldiers are on their knees, in a room, then the video cuts and shows them dead on the floor.
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Jan 13, 2024 13:42
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