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If all of them could, sure. If only one if them could, no probably not
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Jan 13, 2024 15:23
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It has come up that the metaphor works less badly than you'd think given real world bigots already do think minorities have superpowers. They will effectively argue black people have special bones or some poo poo that make them super-athletes and cops basically believe they can breathe fire, Muslims or brown people in general are considered to be hive-minded sleeper agent terrorists who can strike at any time, trans people are mind-destroying rape elementals intent on conquering women's sports forever according to TERFs, and not even getting into everything about Jews. Every reaction to mutants is the dumbest possible thing they could do if they genuinely consider them a threat, because ultimately there's no logic to it, it's Otherisation with all the various attitudes that implies.Nameless Pete posted:I sorta feel like the reputational hit from having a Romani villain would be worth it just to remind Americans that they were victims in the holocaust, too. It's Dr Doom who's Romani. This actually came up with Acts of Vengeance when some bright spark tries to form a supervillain dream team that includes Magneto, Dr Doom, and the Red Skull. That fell apart pretty much as quickly as one might reasonably expect.
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Jan 13, 2024 15:38
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Ghost Leviathan posted:It's Dr Doom who's Romani. Please tell me it resulted in a page of panels of Dr Doom and Magneto beating Red Skull's corpse with steel pipes.
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Jan 13, 2024 15:40
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Randalor posted:Please tell me it resulted in a page of panels of Dr Doom and Magneto beating Red Skull's corpse with steel pipes. Not sure if it's the same panel but Magneto does bury the Red Skull alive because he's a nazi. It's a fairly iconic panel.
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Jan 13, 2024 15:47
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Randalor posted:Please tell me it resulted in a page of panels of Dr Doom and Magneto beating Red Skull's corpse with steel pipes. Magneto seals Red Skull in a basement with an amount of water enough to last him for a few months with the intention of him eventually dying anyway, just having gone insane in the meantime. It'd be one of those things that'd have been a badass way to slowly kill a real piece of poo poo but because it's comics they didn't kill him off, one of his minions found him eventually I think.
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Jan 13, 2024 15:51
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Just a few days in total darkness can cause hallucinations and delusions, he didn't have to lock him up for months except cruelty. Admittedly, the Red Skull is a Nazi so he deserves all the cruelty we can muster, but it was still cruelty.
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Jan 13, 2024 16:03
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Kwyndig posted:Just a few days in total darkness can cause hallucinations and delusions, he didn't have to lock him up for months except cruelty. Admittedly, the Red Skull is a Nazi so he deserves all the cruelty we can muster, but it was still cruelty. The cruelty is the point.
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Jan 13, 2024 16:43
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Byzantine posted:Americans think Romani are the people who built the Colosseum. Some Jews think the Romani are the people who Ite Domum.
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Jan 13, 2024 16:56
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Randalor posted:Please tell me it resulted in a page of panels of Dr Doom and Magneto beating Red Skull's corpse with steel pipes. That would have been amazing. Wasn't there some comic where the Joker was going to team up with Red Skull until he found out it wasn't a costume and the dude was a legit Nazi?
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Jan 13, 2024 17:09
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Cowslips Warren posted:That would have been amazing. Batman & Captain America, yes.
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Jan 13, 2024 17:17
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Stephen King's Thinner has actual Romani gypsies though right? There must be enough in the US for the millions of people who read his books to understand what he's on about.
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Jan 13, 2024 17:26
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I think most Americans would consider them in the same way we consider Pirates - a funny thing from far away and a long time ago.
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Jan 13, 2024 17:50
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Around the time I learned gypsy was a racist term was also around the time I learned gypsies are based on real people and not folklore. Traveling fortune tellers and vaudeville actors who live in wagons in the woods and also steal children because I think they can't produce offspring of their own? They may be fairy folk? credburn has a new favorite as of 19:00 on Jan 13, 2024 |
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Jan 13, 2024 17:57
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Torquemada posted:Stephen King's Thinner has actual Romani gypsies though right? There must be enough in the US for the millions of people who read his books to understand what he's on about. InediblePenguin has a new favorite as of 07:41 on Jan 15, 2024 |
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Jan 13, 2024 18:45
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Torquemada posted:Stephen King's Thinner has actual Romani gypsies though right? There must be enough in the US for the millions of people who read his books to understand what he's on about. No, no one I knew had any real concept of the Romani as an actual people. It was (and broadly is) culturally, as said above, on the level of a mermaid or witch. Wandering fortune teller was just a trope we were aware of that was broadly considered just a thing people ended up doing like learning to be a wizard or becoming a werewolf.
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Jan 13, 2024 18:55
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thebardyspoon posted:Magneto seals Red Skull in a basement with an amount of water enough to last him for a few months with the intention of him eventually dying anyway, just having gone insane in the meantime. It'd be one of those things that'd have been a badass way to slowly kill a real piece of poo poo but because it's comics they didn't kill him off, one of his minions found him eventually I think. If I recall, he starts hallucinating pep-talks from Hitler and stuff telling him to hang on, and in the end the only vision that keeps him from giving in to suicidal despair is a mental image of Captain America basically calling him a pussy for dying to vengeance instead of justice, and he needs to live so he can die to a Hague-sanctioned execution like a proper Nazi.
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Jan 13, 2024 19:33
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Reminds me of that superhero show Powers (that was pretty cool iirc) from before the MCU got huge that had a bad guy whose power was teleportation. He had control over what he took with him if it touched him, like his clothes and whatever. He also had this airtight underground bunker he would teleport victims into to interrogate or torture them or whatever, just popping in and out and taking all the air with him. The show actually seemed to think about the implications of superpowers. Like yeah, why wouldn't someone with telekinetic powers just pop vessels in the brain to cause strokes, or sever spinal cords to paralise opponents? Teleportation dude would just appear behind their victim, grab their head and poof away leaving the body behind lol. I wonder if it holds up.
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Jan 13, 2024 19:45
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InediblePenguin posted:Especially when he wrote that book, the American idea is that "gypsy" is literally a stock character just like a vampire or a ghost or an evil clown demon which also appear in the literary works of Stephen King ::looks at the World of Darkness and shutters::
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Jan 13, 2024 20:28
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Asterite34 posted:If I recall, he starts hallucinating pep-talks from Hitler and stuff telling him to hang on, and in the end the only vision that keeps him from giving in to suicidal despair is a mental image of Captain America basically calling him a pussy for dying to vengeance instead of justice, and he needs to live so he can die to a Hague-sanctioned execution like a proper Nazi. Reminds me of that Mark Waid Red Skull origin comic that got edited before it was released because it made Red Skull a little too sympathetic Also reminds me of the one time Magneto decided to test humanity by asking a random person how he felt about mutants And the poor guy who actually had no bigoted tendencies made the unknowing mistake of using the 'would you kill baby hitler?' argument. (and as Magneto explodes in rage, the guy understandably reacts negatively and Magneto uses that to justify his own anti-humanity agenda once more.) Pretty wild first Xmen comic to buy for me as a teen. DeafNote has a new favorite as of 21:11 on Jan 13, 2024 |
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Jan 13, 2024 21:07
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Yngwie Mangosteen posted:No, no one I knew had any real concept of the Romani as an actual people. It was (and broadly is) culturally, as said above, on the level of a mermaid or witch. Wandering fortune teller was just a trope we were aware of that was broadly considered just a thing people ended up doing like learning to be a wizard or becoming a werewolf. Having recently read Thinner, while certainly a bit dated in its use of the g-word, and there's the problematic aspect of them having magic powers, it's firmly on the romani's side, and it goes into their history of persecution and the holocaust. The protagonist, and his buddies who helped him get away with the hit and run, are all morally reprehensible people who deserve what's coming to them. So while not perfect, I was pleasantly surprised about how they were treated in the novel as an actual group of people,* even if they do use magic to get back at people who escape justice. *well for an 80s american horror novel anyway Ambitious Spider has a new favorite as of 21:37 on Jan 13, 2024 |
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Jan 13, 2024 21:35
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Ambitious Spider posted:Having recently read Thinner, while certainly a bit dated in its use of the g-word, and there's the problematic aspect of them having magic powers, it's firmly on the romani's side, and it goes into their history of persecution and the holocaust. The protagonist, and his buddies who helped him get away with the hit and run, are all morally reprehensible people who deserve what's coming to them. So while not perfect, I was pleasantly surprised about how they were treated in the novel as an actual group of people,* even if they do use magic to get back at people who escape justice. the movie was poo poo. the book was good, at least to teen me, because it did not shy back from how the Good Ole Boys in whitetown who "just made a tiny little mistake, and had his life ruined!" Especially when you remember the main character uses legal magic to get his mafia hitman friend out of legal trouble too. And only the old man had Magic powers. And I especially liked how he got the judge. I just wish I knew what he whispered because I like to imagine "scales of justice" but that was the chapter name too.
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Jan 13, 2024 22:15
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Taeke posted:I wonder if it holds up. I only saw the first episode but wasn't it a plotline within like the first half hour that drinking superhero cum gave you temporary powers ?
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Jan 13, 2024 23:01
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DeafNote posted:Reminds me of that Mark Waid Red Skull origin comic that got edited before it was released because it made Red Skull a little too sympathetic In both versions (Captain America (1999) #14, with the original version reprinted in the back of various collections of that run) almost the entire issue is a dream/fantasy story narrated by the Red Skull while his mind is trapped in the Cosmic Cube. In both stories Kang shows up to free the Red Skull for his own time-manipulating purposes but discovers that he's broken free himself, and in the epilogue Kang narrates: Kang posted:I have taken this opportunity to survey the hatred spun within [Red Skull's] mind. And what I have seen... what I have SEEN. Over the millenia, I have been characterized as evil but those who, I now realize, have no concept of the word's true meaning Until now, not even I knew of the Skull's depravity, and for the the first time, I wonder if I have made a ghastly mistake in unleashing the greatest evil the world has ever known? In both versions the rest of the story is a dream/fantasy sequence where the Red Skull is a bellhop in 1946 post-War Germany, ruled by Supreme Leader Captain America and a full of a diverse range of happy people from around the world. In both stories, he begins to see all non-pureblooded people as faceless monsters. In both versions, he meets a girl that he calls "pureblooded" and is horrified to discover that her parents are Jewish and Asian. In both versions, he then beats the girl to death, then goes and shoots Captain America in the face while a shadow of a heiling Hitler rises behind him. This is apparently enough for him to break out of the Cosmic Cube. They do excise a couple of pages (two pages where the faceless diverse people beat up Red Skull, none of the pages where he attacks them first) and then change a bunch of the narration to take out lines that could make Red Skull "sympathetic" entirely out of context "Once, we were the keepers of the truth, that the Aryan race is the master race. That Nazism is a white light bright and pure enough to burn away the blacks and the yellows and the red and the browns which darken the world. Their faces all look the same to us." becomes "Once, we were the Masters of Evil, we goosestepped across the world and showed our might to all who could see. Nations trembled as the world stood on the brink of annihilation." When the Red Skull thinks back to Hitler, in the original Skull is offered power "...provided I pledge my allegiance to him", is changed to "for in me, he sees his own evil magnified." Lots of other line changes so when he is hating on "inferior races" he's instead hating on "democracy and freedom and goodness", when he mentions purity and Nazism and strength it gets changed to "evil" and "tyranny" and "my black heart". And so on and so forth. Basically the rewrite really softens the edges of what Nazism actually is and swaps in a bunch of stuff about how the Red Skull sees himself and the Nazi ideology as evil and cruel and depraved and bigoted. Which it is, but presumably not in the inner monologue of a super committed Nazi. I kind of understand a comics editor from the 1990s getting skittish, since this was back when Marvel was still nominally pretending that all of their books are "All Ages" and everything is getting approved by the Comics Code Authority, which they were still pretending was a real/important thing. Having lines like the one about the Aryan race published where someone could take it out of context was probably scary (and one would think is scarier now, but they still [re]published it), but taken in context, even in its originally written form, where the cover is plastered with EVIL IS BACK and the opening page calls the story A RARE AND HORRIFYING GLIMPSE INTO ONE OF THE MOST EVIL MINDS IN THE MARVEL UNIVERSE and it ends with another supervillain being horrified by how hateful and evil and depraved the Red Skull is, "a little too sympathetic" does not seem to fit.
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Jan 14, 2024 00:39
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Baron von Eevl posted:I think most Americans would consider them in the same way we consider Pirates - a funny thing from far away and a long time ago. I think the biggest thing people get tripped up on with this subject is that Americans in general didn't/don't realize Romani is an ethnicity. You're correct that they're thought of like pirates, but it's cause anybody can be a pirate if you decide "gently caress it, i'm getting a boat and living free on the waves/attacking merchant shipping/
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Jan 14, 2024 01:04
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What do you call someone in that weird category of folklore/mythology since Romani and Gypsy are both off the table? Travelers? I've heard them called that.
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Jan 14, 2024 01:10
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Fortune teller, but ideally just don't write it.
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Jan 14, 2024 01:16
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credburn posted:What do you call someone in that weird category of folklore/mythology since Romani and Gypsy are both off the table? Travelers? I've heard them called that. "Traveller" also refers to a couple of real-world ethnic groups, though.
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Jan 14, 2024 01:28
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credburn posted:What do you call someone in that weird category of folklore/mythology since Romani and Gypsy are both off the table? Travelers? I've heard them called that. Travelers is another term used for the romani people IIRC So, IDK, Adventurer or something, who cares
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Jan 14, 2024 01:38
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Is "itinerant people" too dry? It describes more of a lifeway than ethnicity.
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Jan 14, 2024 02:24
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credburn posted:What do you call someone in that weird category of folklore/mythology since Romani and Gypsy are both off the table? Travelers? I've heard them called that. Carnies.
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Jan 14, 2024 02:42
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Brawnfire posted:Is "itinerant people" too dry? It describes more of a lifeway than ethnicity. That works. Also I think it's worthwhile to note that the American concept of "gypsies" is kind of melded together with our ideas about carnival workers, so maybe use a carnival instead of an ethnic group if you really want that aesthetic? Carnies have deliberately fostered an aura of mystique about themselves throughout history, mostly to hide the fact that a great many of their attractions are illusions.
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Jan 14, 2024 02:45
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credburn posted:What do you call someone in that weird category of folklore/mythology since Romani and Gypsy are both off the table? Travelers? I've heard them called that. Fukkin' Weirdos
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Jan 14, 2024 04:07
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Honestly I wouldn't be surprised if a disproportionate number of carnies had either Romani or Irish Traveler ancestry. At it feels, anecdotally, like every traveling carnival I've been to in Europa was largely staffed by Irish people and I've never been to Ireland.
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Jan 14, 2024 04:42
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Cowslips Warren posted:the movie was poo poo. the book was good, at least to teen me, because it did not shy back from how the Good Ole Boys in whitetown who "just made a tiny little mistake, and had his life ruined!" Especially when you remember the main character uses legal magic to get his mafia hitman friend out of legal trouble too. Doesn't the movie say the old man whispered, "Lizard"? I want to know what was whispered to the cop. Lawyer is a large man and is told "thinner" and is dying from weight loss. The judge is told "lizard" and his skin gets dry, scaly, etc... And I guess dies from it... somehow? The cop becomes The Thing, basically. We see him all rock-skinned and he shoots himself in the head. But to keep with the theme, it needs to be a two syllable word that almost sort of rhymes with thinner or lizard.
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Jan 14, 2024 04:42
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DrBouvenstein posted:Doesn't the movie say the old man whispered, Leper
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Jan 14, 2024 05:05
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I believe, book wise, the judge ends up in some private treatment center because he insists it's skin cancer, and ends up leaping out like the 10th story when it's clear he's about to have to live in a pool or something. Drag Me To Hell is a far worse Romani/traveler story.
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Jan 14, 2024 07:12
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Weirdly, the 2000 film "Chocolat" was my first, primary exposure to Romani Those dudes lived on a boat, and I wanted to live on a boat too after watching it. You get to bang people in riverside villages and then just, like, float on.
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Jan 14, 2024 07:35
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FreudianSlippers posted:Honestly I wouldn't be surprised if a disproportionate number of carnies had either Romani or Irish Traveler ancestry. We had carnival workers stay at the hotel where I work once. Just about the entire hotel full. And they were almost all South African teenagers. This was in Canada though. 
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Jan 14, 2024 11:26
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FreudianSlippers posted:At it feels, anecdotally, like every traveling carnival I've been to in Europa was largely staffed by Irish people and I've never been to Ireland. We were supposed to attempt no landings there 
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Jan 14, 2024 20:18
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Improbable Lobster posted:Travelers is another term used for the romani people IIRC Travellers (or Irish Travellers) are a distinct ethnic group from the Romani but same issue. Brawnfire posted:Is "itinerant people" too dry? It describes more of a lifeway than ethnicity. Itinerant is recognised as an offensive term by Travellers’ rights organisations (don’t know if it’s taken the same way by Romani) and in Ireland at least people have been prosecuted for using it in a workplace context. You’re not wrong about it originating as more of a lifeway descriptor but however many centuries of use have given it a lot of offensive weight.
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Jan 14, 2024 20:41
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