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Tenebrais posted:That's overselling it a bit. The zerg by SC1 clearly incorporated the DNA of their subsumed species, since they were able to hatch them from zerg eggs. Zerg have always had a big unstable-alien-DNA thing going on. My intended point wasn't to claim that it was a retcon, mainly just that it went from something cool and interesting to something not cool and interesting, and it'll get even worse.
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# ? Jan 13, 2024 21:15 |
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# ? Jun 6, 2024 06:26 |
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I'm going to go with 234 Essence. Originally wanted to go with 123 but then I remembered [REDACTED] exists. Kerrigan's dark gloves really blend into the background on the Leviathan so she ends up looking like she has no hands in some of the screenshots.
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# ? Jan 13, 2024 21:41 |
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665 uses of Essence
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# ? Jan 13, 2024 21:41 |
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Does the game try to justify Kerrigan in any way? Or is it all like, "She's the good guy, so everything she's doing is good." In Warcraft 3, Arthas was straight up "falling into darkness", and the game was straight up calling him out on his actions (like slaughtering that village, or burning the ships and then killing the mercenaries).
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# ? Jan 13, 2024 22:59 |
Kerrigan is her own justification, as far as the story’s concerned.
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# ? Jan 13, 2024 23:02 |
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Regalingualius posted:Kerrigan is her own justification, as far as the story’s concerned. To be more specific; Zeratul's prophecy is a piece of paper with "I can do what I want" written on it as far as Kerrigan is concerned.
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# ? Jan 13, 2024 23:47 |
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Kerrigan's past crimes, including the inexplicable 8 (?) billion casualties in WoL, have been wiped from the record after she got de-Zerged, because those were all the fault of the Overmind/Queen of Blades/vague concept of Corruption. her present and future crimes, eh, I don't think anything she's done goes beyond the scope of generic RTS Player Faction stuff. There definitely hasn't been anything approaching the Culling of Stratholme. Well unless you count the culling of Haven, but Raynor did that and the game assured us it was a good call. E: oh yeah, I forgot about the Prophecy. Everything Kerrigan does is actually cosmically cool, because something worse happens if she's stopped. Now that's storytelling! Zulily Zoetrope fucked around with this message at 00:05 on Jan 14, 2024 |
# ? Jan 13, 2024 23:54 |
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There are the same number of essences as Pokémon. 173
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# ? Jan 14, 2024 00:09 |
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painedforever posted:Does the game try to justify Kerrigan in any way? No, the game very clearly calls Kerrigan a monster multiple times. This is all on her doing what she wants because she feels like it. There are a couple times where people are like "but that's wrong and hosed up!" and Kerrigan might feel a little sad about it sometimes, but otherwise just goes "yeah well you can't stop me soooooo gonna do it anyway"
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# ? Jan 14, 2024 00:31 |
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Octatonic posted:There are the same number of essences as Pokémon. 1015
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# ? Jan 14, 2024 00:36 |
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Kith posted:No, the game very clearly calls Kerrigan a monster multiple times. This is all on her doing what she wants because she feels like it. There are a couple times where people are like "but that's wrong and hosed up!" and Kerrigan might feel a little sad about it sometimes, but otherwise just goes "yeah well you can't stop me soooooo gonna do it anyway" I feel like the game could have used maybe a few flashbacks to Kerrigan's Queen of Blades period to both illustrate how she was thinking/feeling during that period and how she feels about it now. Because as it stands she kind of feels like she's only in the... now, at any given point. There's no looking back or introspection going on. Just "hm, need to save Jim. Need to war crime to save Jim. War crime it is."
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# ? Jan 14, 2024 01:18 |
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The poo poo Kerrigan gets up to isn't justified by the story, but also no one's in any position to hold her to account for it. Plenty of people will call her out as a monster, but they can't actually stop her in any meaningful way. Obviously none of her fellow zerg are going to give a poo poo about protoss civilians or whoever, and any of the other big players that might be able to give her pause know they need her alive.
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# ? Jan 14, 2024 01:23 |
She's straight hosed if they ever figure out how to do total cloning and aim for a prophecy twist, though. Hell, that could even make for a fun, morally ambiguous mission set: Kerrigan finds out one of the other factions is trying to make a clone of her for their own purposes, and goes on the war path just to ensure that she's the one and only Kerrigan.
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# ? Jan 14, 2024 02:13 |
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Essence Essence Joy Joy To the tune of the Ren and Stimpy song!
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# ? Jan 14, 2024 02:15 |
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wedgekree posted:Essence Essence Joy Joy "Essence Essence Form Form Essence Essence Form Form" - the xel'naga as they merrily scatter abominations across the universe
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# ? Jan 14, 2024 02:21 |
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Intermission 2 Abathur requested it. He wants to dissect her. Abathur... Actually, keep her alive for now. I might find a use for her. >Examine Hatchery. The Hive from before has broke free of the ice, and is now faintly moving. She was intelligent, careful, and tenacious. But she made one mistake. She ran away. >Talk to Izsha. Those protoss would kill you if they could. They are not zerg, that means they are the enemy. Is it really that simple. For zerg, it is. Whatever my queen has lost, think what she has gained: Purity of essence. You are the will of the Swarm. Essence count: 10 >Talk to Lasarra. But it's fine, because Kerrigan is only doing Haven 2: Psionic Boogaloo so she can get back to killing Mengsk. I justify nothing. There is no moral high ground here. Your people have killed billions of zerg. We are all covered in blood. There may be more on my hands than yours, but in the end we are both killers. Ah yes, killing billions of ravenous animals puppeted by a hive mind that actively desires the consumption of your kind is totally equivalent to what we're doing here. This is such a morally gray situation! The camera in the Evolution Pit will start to pull back as more units are added, which is neat. >Talk to Abathur. *distant agonized screaming* At least put them out of their misery first. Wasted effort. Creatures will die soon. Pain irrelevant. Oh that Abathur, what a lovable scamp! When you say things like that Abathur... I almost remember you and I feel... anger. Anger product of adrenaline, stress-response, imminent threat. No threat to you. No anger. I'll be the judge of that. >Examine Roach. The Roach can pick between +8 damage vs Light, +3 armor when under half health, and the ability to move while burrowed + a boost to burrowed regen speed. I go with the attack boost. Now to see what Kerrigan can do. As you grow in power, newer and stronger abilities will awaken. You can alter your active abilities here, whenever you wish. On top of getting more stats with each level, Kerrigan unlocks new tiers of abilities at fixed intervals, with each tier having two choices. As it stands, I can swap Kinetic Blast for Heroic Fortitude (+200 life, +100% regen speed) and Crushing Grip for Chain Reaction (Normal attacks bounce to 4 other enemies, dealing 10 damage each). Chain Reaction is part of a strong build later, but Heroic Fortitude runs into the Vanadium Plating issue of boosting lethality being a far better way to improve survivability. I stick with both default abilities for now. Back to Kerrigan's extermination of a bunch of innocent colonists. They are preparing to send shuttles through their warp network to Shakuras! But it unlocks a new toy for the Zerglings, so it can't be that bad!
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# ? Jan 14, 2024 03:26 |
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PurpleXVI posted:I feel like the game could have used maybe a few flashbacks to Kerrigan's Queen of Blades period to both illustrate how she was thinking/feeling during that period and how she feels about it now. Because as it stands she kind of feels like she's only in the... now, at any given point. There's no looking back or introspection going on. Just "hm, need to save Jim. Need to war crime to save Jim. War crime it is." It's interesting how one-dimensional she is. If she didn't have the history that she does from previous games, I would almost say it's good. She's unapologetically a slave to her own ego and other characters have to actively fight to get through to her. Even when they manage to succeed, it rarely leaves much (if any) of an impact because she just doesn't care. It doesn't align with what she wants, so why bother spending more than a few moments considering it? Unfortunately, all of this comes after a strong and memorable characterization that's almost completely the opposite. The Queen of Blades could strategize and plan and manipulate, but Swarm Kerrigan just does what she wants because gently caress you, might makes right, survival of the strongest, your puny protests mean nothing to me, here's a half-considered justification if I absolutely have to humor you. Kith fucked around with this message at 03:46 on Jan 14, 2024 |
# ? Jan 14, 2024 03:41 |
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BisbyWorl posted:I justify nothing. There is no moral high ground here. See, if she had stopped talking here, or focused on her own survival for the sake of her revenge or something like that, it would have been much better. But no, she's trying to pretend the Zerg are in any way sympathetic.
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# ? Jan 14, 2024 03:58 |
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That line about the Protoss killing Zerg is one of the funniest lines in all three campaigns and I fondly remember bursting out laughing that they said it with a straight face.
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# ? Jan 14, 2024 04:02 |
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RevolverDivider posted:That line about the Protoss killing Zerg is one of the funniest lines in all three campaigns and I fondly remember bursting out laughing that they said it with a straight face. Boy, Sarah, if you think the Protoss are bad, wait til you hear what kind of warcrimes ya boy Jimmy did to that peaceful zerg colony on Haven.
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# ? Jan 14, 2024 04:25 |
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Octatonic posted:There are the same number of essences as Pokémon while HotS was in development. 649
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# ? Jan 14, 2024 05:06 |
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quote:She was intelligent, careful, and tenacious. But she made one mistake. She ran away. This is a really excellent line. Kerrigan just projects herself onto a Swarm Queen, extrapolating from the situation that what she's decided she has to do with Mengsk really is the only path, and it makes complete sense for her character to do that. I really wish she'd started this game off just wanting to walk away from everything, it would make so much more sense. quote:I justify nothing. There is no moral high ground here. Your people have killed billions of zerg. We are all covered in blood. There may be more on my hands than yours, but in the end we are both killers. This one on the other hand... it's a line that's easy to mock, but it's also the sentiment that this game was clearly built from the ground up in an attempt to prove. It's just that there's nothing at this point to even attempt to hold it up. Kerrigan has no reason to care about Zerg lives. She's happy to throw them into the meat grinder to get what she wants, and why shouldn't she be? As the player, WE have no reason to care about Zerg lives. Yes, WoL planted the idea that they're being used and have been since the start. Yes, this game showed them in a minor sympathetic life by showing them enthusiastically wanting to help Kerrigan, their beloved queen, whether they're intelligent or not. But mechanically they're designed to be disposable and plot-wise they've pretty much only ever been a plague of locusts on the galaxy when left to their own devices and an apocalyptic weapon when controlled by someone else. Hell, even just in this game we have that little psycho Abathur and before that we had a Swarm Queen cheering on the order to slaughter every Terran to the last man! I think there are ways to make this conversation work. For example, instead of pointing at the Zerg, she could have mentioned Tassadar, and how her people sent him to exterminate humanity to keep the Zerg in check. The Protoss are covered in blood because they're fundamentally THE SAME as the Zerg, a species of super-predators who don't hesitate to kill when it serves their interests and only rarely even pretend that they think other species aren't beneath them. Another possibility might have been to put even greater emphasis on Nafash. Establish that when Kerrigan became human and the Zerg split into factions, she came to this inhospitable ball of ice where almost nothing could survive to protect herself and her swarm. She didn't want to fight the others for dominance, and was completely happy to eke out a quiet existence in a place nobody else could possibly want until someone rose as the new Queen and she could rejoin them, or the heat death of the universe arrived, whichever came first. Then the Protoss came looking to do a little terraforming experiment, found a hive, a struck without hesitation or mercy. They could have moved on, done their work on some other iceball. They could have taken note that when they attacked, the Zerg fled rather than holding their ground, and wondered if maybe something was different about this hive. Maybe without the hated Queen of Blades, whatever entity was running it could be reasoned with. Maybe the Zerg were nothing more than animals without their leader, able to be contained rather than exterminated. But why would they bother with thoughts like that? Better to just kill them all. I dunno. God, this game can be depressing with how bad it is.
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# ? Jan 14, 2024 06:45 |
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42 essences, because someone has to. Even though we're clearly going to blow past that number in no time.
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# ? Jan 14, 2024 07:54 |
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bladededge posted:The whole ESSENCE! thing attaches literal and mechanical meaning to something that was originally more of a metaphorical, philosophical concept. I find this annoying because you're taking something with nuance and removing that nuance. We will get to that. It will not be satisfying.
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# ? Jan 14, 2024 08:18 |
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Torchlighter posted:We will get to that. It will not be satisfying. SC2.txt
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# ? Jan 14, 2024 08:26 |
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I don't know what SC2 says about purity of form and essence, but here's the SC1 manualquote:Driven to perfect their science of quote:The Xel’Naga planned to continue quote:As the Zerg incorporated more and more quote:Over a quote:The Xel’Naga, remembering all too well that quote:A bunch of stuff about how the Overmind controls Cerebrates who control Queens and Overlords, with each tier being completely under the control of the one above. There is no division amongst the race, either in group or by individuals quote:The inclusion of super-dense hides quote:Through dissecting the memories of the quote:Despite innumerable victories, the quote:Obsessed with quote:As their quote:Attempting to completely sever themselves The Xel'naga seemed to be looking for a species that was good at survival as a race, and focused on survival as a race. The Protoss with the 'purity of form' seemed promising, because they were strong, fast, intelligent, adaptable and communal thanks to their telepathic link. Except they developed individual egos and fractured- putting their small individual worries ahead of the species' development as a whole. The Xel'naga not only abandoned the Protoss, but the tenets of 'purity of form'. (Not, we'll combine the two for something awesome! but straight up "that didn't work, it's dumb, we'll try something else that corrects for it's failings"). (In fact, the Protoss stop being described as pure of form, once the Xel'naga no longer care about that. It's a defunct, obsolete descriptor. When the Overmind learns of their existence, it goes "oh, they are strong" not "oh they are pure of form") The Zerg had purity of essence, because they could incorporate other genetics into themselves and still remain Zerg and still remain united. Even then the Xel'naga had to intentionally guide the creation of the Overmind to make sure the Zerg didn't start in-fighting. In fact, the Xel'naga suceeded with their goal of creating the ultimate lifeform- the Zerg. Incorporating the Protoss just enhances their strength so of course the Overmind wants to do that, but fusing the two is not the whole goal of the Xel'naga's experiment. Overmind's interest in the Protoss seemed to be quite utilitarian if anything- it recognized they were a great threat and wanted a way to beat them. So, at least here, a Protoss/Zerg Hybrid is not really an equal combination, nor an endpoint in itself. It's a Zerg that has been eating its eggs n' oats and gotten swole- but will continue to evolve, refine and incorporate as needed. Purity of form is just 'is an apex predator/top of the food chain' kind of thing. It was insufficient. Purity of essence is the ability for the species to remain focused on propagating the species, without fracturing into competition. The Zerg were a success and the Protoss were a failure because the Zerg could take up whatever Form needed, without losing their Zergyness. So again it's not "form + essence = awesome", it's "form is irrelevant, essence is all". Essence is also not a synonym for genetics as Abathur seems to use it as, it's just the survival drive. Zerg have purity of essence because they are nothing but the survival drive. Again I dunno what SC2 does, but I'm guessing, even just based on what we saw in WoL, it's... not this. Mazerunner fucked around with this message at 10:20 on Jan 14, 2024 |
# ? Jan 14, 2024 09:46 |
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Based on all previous zerg behavior it is most likely that when the protoss showed up and started examining the ice planet the zerg there instantly attacked them, as usual, and the zerg only "fled" when they were driven back. Not like the local queen standing her ground would have changed ANYTHING if the protoss vastly outgunned her but the way Kerrigan goes on about it you'd think the protoss had slowly tortured her to death for sport and not just shot her like any other zerg. The pretentious nonsensical trash Kerrigan spouts will only get worse. Hasn't the vast majority of zerg the protoss have killed so far has involved the freaking invasion of Aiur? Kerrigan is the one who can just leave. She has the roach, and by the next mission unit unlocked hint the hydra, and can just leave at any point. Even if the magically conjured out of nowhere Golden Armada is summoned she'll be long gone before they can show up.
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# ? Jan 14, 2024 10:00 |
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Yeah, this entire thing is so mishandled, Kerrigan lurches wildly from regarding the Swarm as a tool, to considering them equal beings, and it's hard to tell if it's bad writing, her being unstable as gently caress or her just conjuring up flimsy excuses to make her morally equivalent(or superior) to the people she's murdering for her own benefit. I mean, gently caress, again, it would've been a great moment to like... add some depth of some sort. Have Abathur encourage various war crimes for the sake of collecting more genetic toys for him to play with, have Kerrigan be unsure about it, seeing the pragmatic perspective but not wanting to become the Queen of Warcrimes again. She tries to negotiate in some way, "hey Protoss colony folks, how about letting me abscond with this hive without any bullshit? Please?" and the Protoss go: "Rar! Kerrigan! You hosed our poo poo up, prepare to die!" Abathur goes: "See I told you so. I am very intelligent." Kerrigan grudgingly accepts that she'll have to kill these folks to continue her mission now that they're out for her blood. A great moment to tell or show us how Kerrigan loving feels. Like, hell, even the bridge is kind of useless for that due to how... static and un-dynamic everything is portrayed. We don't really see how she interacts with the common creatures of the Swarm. Does she actually care about them? Is she treating the Zerglings like puppies and throwing protoss limbs for them to fetch? Are they tools to her and she's using one of them as a footstool while Abathur codes a biological TV for her to watch daytime Dominion talk shows on?
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# ? Jan 14, 2024 10:15 |
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Oh also I did just remember that the Protoss in the last mission were using Scouts so basically they deserved to lose that one. I didn't even know there was a Scout model in SC2.
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# ? Jan 14, 2024 10:49 |
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the crazy part is that they didn't have to pull any "the protoss have killed billions of zerg and their blood is on your hands" bullshit here, there's more than enough justification in this single line of dialogue A random researcher who has been captured and is entirely at Kerrigan's mercy isn't even considering the option of just letting her go about her business in peace, and says outright that they will do anything in their power to kill her. Just make her go "yes, duh," and then perhaps have her agonize about it if you want her to be unhappy about it.
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# ? Jan 14, 2024 12:01 |
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aniviron posted:Oh also I did just remember that the Protoss in the last mission were using Scouts so basically they deserved to lose that one. I didn't even know there was a Scout model in SC2. The Tal'darim in WoL had Scouts too. Not sure why they kept putting Scouts in enemy compositions when their SC2 replacement has been around this whole time. Are phoenixes just that unfun to play against in single player?
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# ? Jan 14, 2024 12:37 |
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Nah, it's because Scouts are the perfect unit for when you want to pressure your player with an air threat, but like... only a little. "Get anti-air sometime within the next hour, until then grr we're totally attacking you!!"
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# ? Jan 14, 2024 13:21 |
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Important lore update Protoss canonically have belly buttons! (I actually really dislike how their design changed between games to be less reptilian...) BisbyWorl posted:
This is the other line I mentioned way back near the beginning of the LP. Kerrigan, bad news, there are whole Zerg strains that exist to be suicide bombers! Did you get rid of those, are you going to refrain from using those, or...?
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# ? Jan 14, 2024 13:48 |
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GunnerJ posted:Kerrigan, bad news, there are whole Zerg strains that exist to be suicide bombers! do you mean like Archons I think a lot of people are misreading Kerrigan's line here. she literally says she justifies nothing - Kerrigan's intent is solely to puncture Lasarra's hypocrisy. she's not actually concerned about dead zergs (zergs are not concerned about dead zergs in general - as noted above by Mazerunner, zergs think in terms of preserving the species as a whole) whole lotta slave morality itt
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# ? Jan 14, 2024 14:08 |
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If she didn't want to justify anything, she would have just stopped at saying "There is no moral high ground here." That she keeps going sure makes it seem like actually she wants to justify something, and "you're just as bad as me" is something people say to justify their actions! (Also she doesn't call out the Archon anyway so.)
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# ? Jan 14, 2024 14:12 |
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Tenebrais posted:Are phoenixes just that unfun to play against in single player? I think the campaigns keep using them because phoenixes can only attack air units (without their special trick and I'm not sure that was even in the game prior to Legacy), making them harmless if the player chooses not to make air units. Air units that the player may not even have, as seen here. Scouts fit the bill of an air unit that can attack both air and ground and are less threatening than a void ray or carrier.
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# ? Jan 14, 2024 14:49 |
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Cythereal posted:I think the campaigns keep using them because phoenixes can only attack air units (without their special trick and I'm not sure that was even in the game prior to Legacy), making them harmless if the player chooses not to make air units. Air units that the player may not even have, as seen here. Nah they still have Graviton Beam. I used it to cheese the hell out of Hybrids during In Utter Darkness.
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# ? Jan 14, 2024 15:06 |
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Kerrigan doesn't say Lasarra is as bad as her, she specifically says she is worse - there is more blood on her hands than Lasarra's. you should just read what the line says instead of imagining what it might say. not trying to pick on you, the whole thread is misunderstanding the line (tellingly - conflating morality with sympathy) Lasarra's argument is that Kerrigan is bad because it is wrong to kill other people (even to save your own life). Kerrigan's response is that Lasarra's argument is weak because she and the protoss also kill other people (for other, even less glamorous reasons) that's it. that's all there is to it. there's nothing about how Kerrigan is actually good, or the protoss are bad, or all zergs are precious, or whatever else the thread has made up. Blizzard doesn't need to develop this further because they can't: Lasarra's only recourse is chauvinism (it's ok to kill zergs because we don't like them) which lacks appeal, to both Kerrigan and audiences
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# ? Jan 14, 2024 15:07 |
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If I'm correct, in every sc2 campaign, enemy units don't use abilities. Stalkers don't blink, marines don't stim, etc. Unless they are units which cannot attack and only use abilities, but I'm unsure about those too. So no phoenixes cause they'll only be able to attack air.
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# ? Jan 14, 2024 15:42 |
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# ? Jun 6, 2024 06:26 |
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Cythereal posted:I think the campaigns keep using them because phoenixes can only attack air units (without their special trick and I'm not sure that was even in the game prior to Legacy), making them harmless if the player chooses not to make air units. Air units that the player may not even have, as seen here.
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# ? Jan 14, 2024 16:03 |