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Main Paineframe posted:You're wrong about this in two ways. First, this isn't data from the Israeli government. Second, it's nowhere near being the complete bodycount. As the article puts it: The data compiling the list of dead has been released by the Israeli social security agency Bituah Leuni which lists 695 Israeli civilian dead. Two are infants. You can argue whether or not this is what you think counts as a govt source but as far as I know that count is no longer challenged. https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20231215-israel-social-security-data-reveals-true-picture-of-oct-7-deaths The pertinent information here is that precisely two infants have been identified. I am not aware of, as of now, Israeli bodies remaining unidentified. So when it comes to claims made about babies, we can tell what’s wrong and what’s not wrong. You can argue that statements made early October were driven by confusion on the ground, though I would argue that at best the claims made by official organs were wildly irresponsible. You cannot claim that in December or January official organs making these claims are telling truths. Or that these claims are not being made. They’re still being made in order to justify genocide.
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Jan 14, 2024 18:16
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Speleothing posted:https://new.thecradle.co/articles/israeli-army-ordered-mass-hannibal-directive-on-7-oct-media The math certainly is easy to do when you're making up whatever numbers you feel like. The 70 to 90 vehicles were vehicles crossing or approaching the Israel-Gaza border, from either direction. While at least a few of those vehicles may have been transporting hostages, there's no evidence to suggest that all or even most of them were. As for the militants dressed as police shooting people in Israel, all accounts suggest that those actually were Hamas militants. Both eyewitness accounts and camera footage support that there actually were Hamas militants dressing as Israeli soldiers and police on Oct 7th. And that wouldn't be the first time Hamas has done something like that - there's been past incidents of Palestinian militants wearing IDF uniforms while attempting to infiltrate into Israel, particularly this one which spooked the hell out of the IDF, when such a group was discovered only a couple hundred meters from a kibbutz and almost managed to deceive an actual IDF squad. The shelling of one home in a kibbutz is only confirmed to have killed one person. While it's certainly possible that the shell was also responsible for some or all of the 13 other dead civilians in that home, it's also quite possible that they were killed by the terrorists who were holding them hostage, using them as human shields, and openly threatening to shoot hostages if the IDF moved in. For some reason, people only remember the part of that situation where the tank fired, so let's refer back to the NYT article that broke that story (warning: this article contains some photos and videos that may be disturbing or  , including surveillance footage of people being shot at and detailed descriptions of people being killed) and refresh our memories about what exactly happened there:quote:The couple had thought they were safe after fleeing the massacre at the nearby music festival. Instead, they found a village under lockdown, facing a similar attack. So the Hamas militants had already killed one person in that house before the IDF forces even arrived. And when the IDF forces arrived, the militants directly threatened to shoot hostages, and then intentionally positioned a number of the hostages between themselves and the IDF soldiers. While the civilian eyewitnesses don't appear to know whose bullets were responsible for each death, other than the one killed by the tank, there should be no doubt that the Hamas militants who forcibly kidnapped those civilians as hostages and forced them at gunpoint to act as human shields for several hours while the militants fired behind them hold some responsibility regardless. Moreover, that NYT article isn't just about that one house. It describes a number of other incidents (sourced from eyewitness accounts and surveillance footage) in which people were badly hurt or killed by Hamas militants, often long before any IDF presence at all arrived. (warning: descriptions of people being killed by Hamas) Benayahu Bitton and his two friends, whose car was shot up by Hamas militants as it tried to enter a kibbutz, with the killing (including its perpetrators) caught on video. The Bachar family, where several members were wounded when militants fired through the door of their safe room and then tossed grenades through the windows. The village clinic, where an eyewitness describes at least four people being killed by Hamas gunfire, with one of them being a medic who was executed while begging for mercy.
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Jan 14, 2024 18:40
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Stringent posted:I agree entirely. The two carrier groups dispatched to the Med should have established a no fly zone over Gaza as soon as they were on station and able to commence flight operations. An uninvited no fly zone over someone else's territory is an act of war. Without a UN mandate, this would be viewed as an act of war initiated by the US versus Israel. While technically true that Biden is equipped to order this, that's a massive expectation with massive repercussions that, if Israel escalated back, likely leads to impeachment and removal of Joe Biden from office and subsequent dialing back of US involvement.
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Jan 14, 2024 18:50
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piL posted:An uninvited no fly zone over someone else's territory is an act of war. Without a UN mandate, this would be viewed as an act of war initiated by the US versus Israel. While I agree that Israel would be loving pissed and it wouldn't happen, Gaza is not Israel's territory.
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Jan 14, 2024 18:57
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I'm sure the people of Gaza would be crushed to learn of the US dialing back their involvement, and of the removal of Joe Biden from office. Also, are you saying Gaza is Israel's territory? Edit: I don't disagree that this is unrealistic, and that the US government is so rotten with Zionists that doing something like this might actually cause Biden to be impeached. Esran fucked around with this message at 19:03 on Jan 14, 2024 |
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Jan 14, 2024 19:00
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Stringent posted:I agree entirely. The two carrier groups dispatched to the Med should have established a no fly zone over Gaza as soon as they were on station and able to commence flight operations. I actually would have been fine with a no fly zone in Gaza, and even a military intervention. I would have also urged a no fly zone over Ukraine and boots on the ground to thwart Russia. But I don't think that many people here will go for the latter. In both cases, it's a military intervention with a nuclear power. Your Brain on Hugs posted:As far as I'm aware, the IDF has released the names of every single Israeli who died on October 7th, and it included one baby. This article would imply that not all the names have been released, or that there are extra babies. Also it can't be ruled out that bodies missing heads were blown up by Israeli tank shells, as they have stated that they fired on hostages and houses, as well as intentionally killing hostages that were being taken back to Gaza. I actually don't really know how Israel is going about listing victims. The Hamas attack was responsible for the vast, vast majority of the destruction on October 7, not the very late Israeli response. So you will have to ask yourself whether it's more likely that the party responsible for the vast majority of the destruction is the party that ended up beheading the babies in whatever way they were beheaded. But I think the more important point here is why it seems so difficult for some to believe that a group that carried out such a barbaric attack also might have beheaded babies and other people. Hong XiuQuan posted:Man, thank you so much for posting this because you’re identifying exactly the problem. The death count from October is completely irrelevant to this discussion (as is the death count from December that you linked to), which is about whether Israeli officials were lying about seeing decapitated babies. So now you're in this incredibly odd position in which you have to spin the findings from an international body of experts as quote:You could argue I suppose that both were beheaded. Or beheaded and then burned alive. Or burned alive and then beheaded. Or shot and then burned alive and then beheaded. But that’s not a natural read of what’s being said by any of Israel’s mouthpieces. There's actually no "supposition" here, and the sequence of events is not what we're arguing here. Israeli officials claimed that they've seen decapitated babies and a panel of experts said that they've seen them, too. Again, you are free to correct me if I'm wrong: have any of the Israeli officials ever talked about the means of decapitation or did they simply state what they saw?
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Jan 14, 2024 19:02
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Why do these arguments about how many babies were decapitated keep coming up? The most horrific crimes committed by Hamas on Oct 7th wouldn't justify the Israeli response of, well, continuing and intensifying their ongoing genocide of the Palestinian people. I mean Israeli snipers murdering Palestinian children and medics and whomever else is like a Tuesday for them. Trying to whatabout on behalf of an ongoing genocide is loving disgusting. e: no matter how many Israelis were killed by the IDF on Oct 7th, the responsible party for all the deaths is on the heads of those in the apartheid state pushing the Palestinian people into an open air concentration camp and trying to exterminate them. They have set the conditions for this poo poo for years and have done nothing but double down. When they're saying poo poo like "the Hague won't stop us" I'm not sure how much more clear the point could be made. Professor Beetus fucked around with this message at 19:11 on Jan 14, 2024 |
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Jan 14, 2024 19:07
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Main Paineframe posted:Joe Biden supports the destruction of Hamas by military means, and while he would really prefer for there to be fewer civilian deaths, as a longtime senior government figure he's well aware that a fuckton of dead civilians is just how the anti-insurgency cookie crumbles in Western military doctrine. The bodycounts Israel has racked up in Gaza are certainly excessive compared to Western wars, but given his position it shouldn't be hard for him to remember various incidents in which American troops just blatantly massacred civilians on purpose as revenge for previous attacks, as well as the heavily urban nature of the combat, so it's easy for him to make excuses for it. 
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Jan 14, 2024 19:11
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I CANNOT EJACULATE WITHOUT SEEING NATIVE AMERICANS BRUTALISED!
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KillHour posted:While I agree that Israel would be loving pissed and it wouldn't happen, Gaza is not Israel's territory. I'm not confident that Hamas would invite the US to do that either. To practically enforce a no-fly zone over Gaza would require extending it over Israel and likely Egypt. A prop plane going 300 knots long ways over a 22 nm long Gaza would need to be processed and engaged within 4 minutes. A jet at 600 knots in 2 minutes. Short ways crossing Gaza, assuming a 4nm breadth is 48 and 24 seconds respectively. Meanwhile, the attack aircraft wouldnt even need to go over Gaza. You can still shoot ground targets from 22nm (and definitely 4nm) away from an aircraft, meaning you could hit southern targets in Gaza while flying in Israeli air space. It would reduce precision of course, however, and I'm sure the US would be blamed for forcing Israel to use less discriminate attacks.
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Jan 14, 2024 19:11
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piL posted:I'm not confident that Hamas would invite the US to do that either. Hamas very much does not like the US, but I'm pretty sure they would be fine with Biden ordering the military to shoot Israeli planes out of the sky.
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Jan 14, 2024 19:19
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Hong XiuQuan posted:The data compiling the list of dead has been released by the Israeli social security agency Bituah Leuni which lists 695 Israeli civilian dead. Two are infants. You can argue whether or not this is what you think counts as a govt source but as far as I know that count is no longer challenged. Bituah Leuni themselves say that the list of 695 dead is not a complete one: https://www.btl.gov.il/English%20Homepage/About/News/Pages/NamesLaad.aspx quote:The National Insurance updloaded the names of 695 identified war casualties to the "Laad" website So they say that not all bodies had been identified at that point, and also that for various reasons they hadn't yet posted all the names that had been identified (and also that their English site is an afterthought with lovely translation, but it appears to line up with the Hebrew). Also, that announcement (and thus the count of 695) was posted on November 9th. So the list of 695 dead that France 24 reviewed is pretty out of date. And it's worth noting that body identification is still going on, and there's still a number of people whose status is unknown. For example, Ilan Weiss was only officially declared dead on Jan 1 based on unspecified info from forensic examiners, only for it to be discovered three days later that he was actually being held hostage in Gaza. While they've no doubt found most of the bodies by now, the "sifting bone chips out of the wreckage of burned-down houses" phase of casualty-hunting is likely going to drag on for a while longer. Professor Beetus posted:Why do these arguments about how many babies were decapitated keep coming up? The most horrific crimes committed by Hamas on Oct 7th wouldn't justify the Israeli response of, well, continuing and intensifying their ongoing genocide of the Palestinian people. I mean Israeli snipers murdering Palestinian children and medics and whomever else is like a Tuesday for them. Trying to whatabout on behalf of an ongoing genocide is loving disgusting. Well, you can just click the previous page button and look at exactly who started talking about decapitated babies and what argument they were making. I know that's not as easy or as satisfying as making a blind assumption based on your preconceptions, but it's still worth doing. As far as I can tell, these were the people first who brought up the beheaded babies in this conversation: cat botherer posted:Accusations like this are obvious IDF propaganda, just like the 40 beheaded babies. I know CNN uncritically repeats these fabrications, but we shouldn’t. BARONS CYBER SKULL posted:the same kinds of people who think Oct 7th excuses Israels wholesale slaughter of Palestinians are the same ones who immediately fall for Israels obvious lies and propaganda and still tout lines that have not only been denied but literally proven not to be true even remotely Gosh, it sure doesn't look like they're trying to "whatabout on behalf of an ongoing genocide". Instead, it looks like they're bringing it up umprompted in order to argue against talking about other Hamas atrocities on Oct 7th. Why do Hamas atrocities on Oct 7th keep coming up at all? Probably because, regardless of whether they were morally justified or what they may have created moral justification for, they're unquestionably a major contributing factor to the current events, and one that cannot possibly be ignored in any response or resolution of these events. Also, sometimes denialist narratives get posted here and people argue about them because they're controversial.
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Jan 14, 2024 19:27
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Wow, the Israelis have blockaded two-million people in Gaza and have basically precision carpet bombed huge swathes of the urban area while turning off the water and stopping food shipments, destroying all of the hospitals and sanitation infrastructure, killing journalists, and creating conditions to starve and dehydrate millions of people while horrifically blowing up entire residential complexes with generations of families still in them. This seems pretty bad???? Maybe they should stop these ongoing atrocities?? edit: I know the ongoing genocide is off-topic for this thread (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST) (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST) 386-SX 25Mhz VGA fucked around with this message at 19:34 on Jan 14, 2024 |
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Jan 14, 2024 19:31
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KillHour posted:Hamas very much does not like the US, but I'm pretty sure they would be fine with Biden ordering the military to shoot Israeli planes out of the sky. I dont think they publicly asked for one. All I'm trying to contrary is the notion that two carrier groups (or the US in general) should have unilaterally established a no-fly zone. Unfortunately, it is not that simple.
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Jan 14, 2024 19:33
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Gnumonic posted:Don't Bomb the Houthis The Houthis have been a somewhat successful rebellion through years of getting bombed (by Saudi failsons playing at being literal weekend warriors, but still), bombing them slightly more and more accurately probably won't end them. IMO it's more that the US wants to show its displeasure by making craters and putting some dead pirates next to missile launcher debris on TV, and hopes that that'll satisfy any domestic anger/business anxiety over piracy. If the Houthis could kindly stop their missile launches after making their own frustrations known loudly enough to their own domestic audience, in time for it to look like US bombings were the reason, that'd be a nice bonus.
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Jan 14, 2024 19:34
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Main Paineframe posted:Bituah Leuni themselves say that the list of 695 dead is not a complete one: Well I retract that part of my statement but I think it's a losing game to debate the exact number of babies killed when Israeli has the deaths of vastly more Palestinian children on its hands.
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Jan 14, 2024 19:35
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suck my woke dick posted:The Houthis have been a somewhat successful rebellion through years of getting bombed (by Saudi failsons playing at being literal weekend warriors, but still), bombing them slightly more and more accurately probably won't end them. IMO it's more that the US wants to show its displeasure by making craters and putting some dead pirates next to missile launcher debris on TV, and hopes that that'll satisfy any domestic anger/business anxiety over piracy. If the Houthis could kindly stop their missile launches after making their own frustrations known loudly enough to their own domestic audience, in time for it to look like US bombings were the reason, that'd be a nice bonus. US foreign policy heavily leans into keeping the high seas open and that the rest of the world will ally against you if you violate this basic tenant. It's very important to US interests that holding a chokepoint hostage against the entire world, even in the most justified small case, never becomes an acceptable answer. Otherwise whatever happenening whereever becomes a reason to blockade Taiwan, Singapore, Vietnam, Korea or Japan until they're appropriately destabilized (perhaps for other reasons). Its in the US's interest that nobody decides this is a valid course in Panama, Malacca, the Mediterranean, or the Capes, because either the US likes using those, likes trade through those, or generaly wants to avoid having to deal with destabilization that results by sudden changes of food, fuel, or economic traffic. The US maintains restricting access beyond UNCLOS limits is an act of war. By this logic, if the Houthis are to be treated as a state, the Houthis would be described as having taken war actions on Bahamas, Panama, Norway, Marshall Islands, Hong Kong/China, Liberia, Cayman Islands, Gabon, Singapore, and Malta in addition to their targets of Israel and the US. States with stakes like cargo ownership, recipient ports, or crew members onboard such as Russia, Denmark, Japan, the Philippines, or Greece would probably describe these actions as "unfriendly". It's politically easier and probably politically necessary to take clear and direct action in the case of Red Sea crisis while the Israeli/Hamas conflict is fraught with complexity and quagmire. The Houthi's correctly identified a US Center of Gravity. US action, however, is often constrained by pissing off the electorate or pissing off the rest of the world. Houthi wild flailing has circumvented the second constraint. piL fucked around with this message at 20:10 on Jan 14, 2024 |
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Jan 14, 2024 20:07
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Professor Beetus posted:Well I retract that part of my statement but I think it's a losing game to debate the exact number of babies killed when Israeli has the deaths of vastly more Palestinian children on its hands. But nobody here is actually arguing that Israel is "right" or justified in killing 23k civilians. We're arguing against lies about October 7, which is often played down with weird takes like "well, we don't actually know who decapitated the babies" or the assertion that the claim is false. Edit: to be perfectly clear, the attack was antisemitic, and was coupled with a call to murder Jews worldwide wherever they lived. That can't be swept under the rug. We're all sympathetic to Palestinians here. Nobody likes Israel here.
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Jan 14, 2024 20:24
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small butter posted:But nobody here is actually arguing that Israel is "right" or justified in killing 23k civilians. We're arguing against lies about October 7, which is often played down with weird takes like "well, we don't actually know who decapitated the babies" or the assertion that the claim is false. I mean "lies" is doing some heavy lifting. Have you read The Jakarta Method? All kinds of heinous poo poo got said about what the communists in Indonesia were doing to justify their slaughter, and it was all laundered through "reputable" media sources. I think there are definitely some Hamas can do no wrong folks in here but I also don't think it's unreasonable to be skeptical about specific claims being made about the atrocities from Oct 7th.
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Jan 14, 2024 20:35
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Main Paineframe posted:Well, you can just click the previous page button and look at exactly who started talking about decapitated babies and what argument they were making. I know that's not as easy or as satisfying as making a blind assumption based on your preconceptions, but it's still worth doing. As far as I can tell, these were the people first who brought up the beheaded babies in this conversation: Yes, and if you click a couple more times, you will see that those comments were in response to the guy complaining that people were discussing the genocide, and not the actions of Hamas on October 7th, and if only we saw the execution video, we'd understand. So really, you can just rephrase the question a bit: "Why do these arguments about what Hamas did on October 7th keep coming up?". If everyone agrees that the crimes of Hamas can't justify a genocide, and everyone agrees that Israel is doing one, then what possible reasons could there be for this topic to become the focus repeatedly? small butter posted:But nobody here is actually arguing that Israel is "right" or justified in killing 23k civilians. Yes, that's clearly indefensible, but people sure are eager to spend endless pages figuring out exactly who Hamas killed on October 7th, or reading the mind of the Houthi pirate, or sharing their grave concerns about sailors being taken hostage, really when you think about it, aren't both sides bad? small butter posted:the attack was antisemitic, and was coupled with a call to murder Jews worldwide wherever they lived Can you share a source? Esran fucked around with this message at 20:53 on Jan 14, 2024 |
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Jan 14, 2024 20:36
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Professor Beetus posted:Well I retract that part of my statement but I think it's a losing game to debate the exact number of babies killed when Israeli has the deaths of vastly more Palestinian children on its hands. Oh, I completely agree. I think it would be nice if we could focus on the actual things going on right now in Gaza that we have tons of clear evidence about. I think it would be nice to agree that regardless of how many unarmed civilians Hamas murdered on Oct 7th or how brutally they did it, the Israelis have done far worse in the months since. But it seems to me that for some people, that's not enough - they also need to whitewash the crimes Hamas committed, so that they can have a morally spotless hero to pit against the Israeli villains. When people start specifically claiming that the IDF was responsible for more Israeli civilian deaths than Hamas was, it is absolutely reasonable to challenge that rather substantial claim, at least until we get much better evidence than "the numbers aren't released, obviously, but the math is easy to do". Esran posted:If everyone agrees that the crimes of Hamas can't justify a genocide, and everyone agrees that Israel is doing one, then what possible reasons could there be for this topic to become the focus repeatedly? Because whether or not Hamas' actions morally justify a genocide, Hamas' actions aren't something that can just be ignored either. They have a significant political and diplomatic impact, which affects both Israeli domestic politics and world diplomatic relationships with the various Palestinian factions. Any resolution to the conflict is inevitably going to need to consider both the impact of Israel's actions on Gaza and the impact of Hamas' actions on Israel. And yeah, the latter is probably going to weigh disproportionately heavily, because Israel has most of the power here and because most of the countries likely to have any say in the result already hated Hamas and are going to inherently sympathize with the Westernized modern military against the Islamic guerilla terrorists.
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Jan 14, 2024 21:24
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small butter posted:But nobody here is actually arguing that Israel is "right" or justified in killing 23k civilians. We're arguing against lies about October 7, which is often played down with weird takes like "well, we don't actually know who decapitated the babies" or the assertion that the claim is false. Nobody is saying it outright, they're just insisting that any discussion of Israel's massive ongoing crime against humanity be derailed into wailing over October 7th.
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Jan 14, 2024 21:33
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piL posted:US foreign policy heavily leans into keeping the high seas open and that the rest of the world will ally against you if you violate this basic tenant.
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Jan 14, 2024 21:51
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It's being discussed a lot because this is all Israel has. They have to try and paint Hamas as animalistic savages of the kind that Israel allowed to perpetrate the Sabra and Shatila massacres, because it's the only thing that will justify the genocide in the minds of western liberals. It's why their entire defense in the ICJ hinged on atrocity propaganda, even though that has no relevance in the court, because there can be no legal justification for genocide.
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Jan 14, 2024 21:58
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Has anybody come up with estimates for how many babies, asleep in their cribs or carried in their mothers’ arms, have had their heads crushed or decapitated by tons of concrete and rebar falling on them in the hundreds of instances of the IDF JDAMng an apartment complex, or have been killed by cranial trauma when dropped to the ground after the IDF sniper-murdered their mothers? This is clearly super topical as a thing that is still happening and that is the subject of a genocide trial in The Hague, the ruling of which Israeli leadership has stated they will ignore.
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Jan 14, 2024 22:05
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suck my woke dick posted:Yes, that is the idea, but again, it would require an astounding degree of self delusion to imagine that cratering a rebel drone base in the desert will accomplish more than PR victories against rebels who have notably kept operating while getting bombed for a decade already. Maybe it'll slightly deter a real country with expensive assets you could wipe out, rather than backyard drones that don't require an intact air base to launch, but unless the US follows up with an occupation they won't actually destroy poo poo. Maybe militarily, but against Saudi interests, the US took the Houthi's off the terrorist list and against Saudi requests, the US didn't bomb them, and the Saudi-Houthi cease fire has been holding strong for 2 years. This means a couple of years of being able to build things you would hate to see wrecked. This means a slow transition to being considered the legitimate government that has been unhampered by the US and US can stall that. Houthis were charting a course for legitimacy for their rule, as terrible as that may be. And if a peer or the Saudi's decide to go hot again, their efforts will be much more effective if the US ensures that any Houthi whom launches a missile gets to do so exactly once. I also dont think the US can bomb the Houthis out of Yemen, but there's a lot of steps between that and knocking off strikes on maritime traffic that military pressure can affect. The audience isn't just the Houthis, it's nonstate entities who might try to destabilize South Africa for sweet chokepoint missile access, it's semi-stable autocracies in Central and South America, its non-state actors in Mindinao, it's China and nearby partner nations. Even if the Houthis aren't cowed, the US has to show they wont back down just because regime change isn't on the menu, or risk stability among all those other audiences.
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Jan 14, 2024 22:13
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Main Paineframe posted:Because whether or not Hamas' actions morally justify a genocide, Hamas' actions aren't something that can just be ignored either. They have a significant political and diplomatic impact, which affects both Israeli domestic politics and world diplomatic relationships with the various Palestinian factions. Any resolution to the conflict is inevitably going to need to consider both the impact of Israel's actions on Gaza and the impact of Hamas' actions on Israel. And yeah, the latter is probably going to weigh disproportionately heavily, because Israel has most of the power here and because most of the countries likely to have any say in the result already hated Hamas and are going to inherently sympathize with the Westernized modern military against the Islamic guerilla terrorists. I don't know that I think this is true. It seems like the Israel-aligned world largely takes Israel's claims at face value, and have condemned Hamas as a matter of course. I haven't seen many countries sympathetic to the Palestinians spend much time waffling on support due to the actions of Hamas either. But regardless, even if nailing down the actions of Hamas are very important to defining a peace agreement, or understanding the diplomatic standing of Israel and Hamas with other countries, or understanding Israel's internal politics, that doesn't seem to be the reason they're being brought up in this thread. The people that brought up the crimes of Hamas have shown little interest in discussing these subjects.
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Jan 14, 2024 22:19
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Esran posted:But regardless, even if nailing down the actions of Hamas are very important to defining a peace agreement, or understanding the diplomatic standing of Israel and Hamas with other countries, or understanding Israel's internal politics, that doesn't seem to be the reason they're being brought up in this thread. The people that brought up the crimes of Hamas have shown little interest in discussing these subjects.
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Jan 14, 2024 22:27
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It's telling that as one side is being tried by the Hague for genocide, some users in this thread would prefer to continue debating the breakdown of innocents murdered by Hamas 4 months ago. An event whose death toll is already dwarfed by the deaths in Gaza in response. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jan 14, 2024 22:42
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Main Paineframe posted:The math certainly is easy to do when you're making up whatever numbers you feel like. The 70 to 90 vehicles were vehicles crossing or approaching the Israel-Gaza border, from either direction. While at least a few of those vehicles may have been transporting hostages, there's no evidence to suggest that all or even most of them were. how do you know they were hamas and not one of the dozen or so militant groups operating in gaza
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Jan 14, 2024 22:46
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386-SX 25Mhz VGA posted:I’m thinking this has got to be the mechanism for memory-holing a genocide. If the debate and discussion about a conflict focuses 90+% on everything except the genocide, with the genocide only being brought up occasionally by a few nagging voices, then what will the collective memory of the genocide-causing conflict look like? The only memory will be about 10/7, or about the Houthis or whatever other digression comes up in the future, but all those kids and innocent people in mass graves or buried under rubble in Gaza will be forgotten in most of the English- (or German-)speaking world. oh among the segments of the british """left""" who want to appear sensible and centrist this is absolutely what is happening yeah yeah we all agree civilians shouldn't be bombed but what about the dead babies murdered to death by Hamas, who want to kill Israeli babies? And anyway let's talk about why bombing desert terrorist pirates in Yemen is such a good idea that starmer was brilliant to publicly support it
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Jan 14, 2024 22:50
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ELTON JOHN posted:how do you know they were hamas and not one of the dozen or so militant groups operating in gaza Sorry, you're right. They were Palestinian militants pretending to be Israeli soldiers, not Hamas militants pretending to be Israeli soldiers. The fact remains that they were not Israeli soldiers shooting people and then making up fake Palestinian militants to blame it on, as the poster I was responding to appeared to be suggesting. I suspect we'd spend a lot less time talking about Oct 7th if people weren't insisting on bringing up increasingly bizarre theories like that with the apparent intention of absolving Palestinian militants of responsibility for the killings on Oct 7th.
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Jan 14, 2024 22:55
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Main Paineframe posted:Sorry, you're right. They were Palestinian militants pretending to be Israeli soldiers, not Hamas militants pretending to be Israeli soldiers. it's a pretty big loving difference between the governing body of gaza committing these acts and unaffiliated militant groups committing these acts, and you treating this distinction as incidental really illustrates the worthlessness of your opinions on this topic
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Jan 14, 2024 22:59
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386-SX 25Mhz VGA posted:I’m thinking this has got to be the mechanism for memory-holing a genocide. If the debate and discussion about a conflict focuses 90+% on everything except the genocide, with the genocide only being brought up occasionally by a few nagging voices, then what will the collective memory of the genocide-causing conflict look like? The only memory will be about 10/7, or about the Houthis or whatever other digression comes up in the future, but all those kids and innocent people in mass graves or buried under rubble in Gaza will be forgotten in most of the English- (or German-)speaking world. Not implying posters in this thread are bringing up October 7th for this reason, but it is definitely a way to make the conflict seem more even than it is. If you can make the conflict sound like two evenly matched sides doing Bad Things to each other as part of a war, you can equivocate, and roundly condemn all sides for the Bad Things they did. When you describe it accurately, as an uprising of inmates in a concentration camp, it becomes pretty obvious why focusing on the crimes of the rebelling inmates is an extremely weird thing to do. Esran fucked around with this message at 23:02 on Jan 14, 2024 |
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Jan 14, 2024 22:59
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Main Paineframe posted:I suspect we'd spend a lot less time talking about Oct 7th if people weren't insisting on bringing up increasingly bizarre theories like that with the apparent intention of absolving Palestinian militants of responsibility for the killings on Oct 7th. I think this illustrates the big disconnect between people frustrated that this thread is often fixated on 10/7 and not the ongoing genocide, and people frustrated that 10/7 is getting dismissed, ignored, or explained away. In my view, and I think probably the view of at least some others, we fundamentally cannot know what happened on 10/7 to any degree of reliability because very nearly all information we have available to us, regular people is coming directly or indirectly from israel, a state which: a) has an obvious and overwhelming interest in excusing and justifying what it's doing to Gaza, and Palestinians more broadly and in general b) has proven itself, time and time again over decades, to be wildly untrustworthy in the information it provides, especially about its actions regarding Palestinians c) has an extremely developed and proficient propaganda apparatus and influence network that extends into its allies' governments and media ecosystems Everything that cannot be independently verified by an outside source (which israel in nearly all cases fights against) is coming from israel, an untrustworthy source with profound information control into western media and a distinct material interest in maximizing the depravity of Hamas in order to excuse and justify their genocide. If we take it as understood that we can't really trust anything coming from israel except the broad strokes (Hamas breached the walls, attacked several sites, took or tried to take hostages, and engaged in various firefights, many people died), the narratives coming out of israel don't really align with Hamas as they've acted historically, but the israeli messaging does align with what we understand israel's interests to be. Even if you hate them, Hamas is a fairly disciplined organization, and their supposed savagery on 10/7 doesn't comport to how Hamas has acted in the past and how they're acting now (eg. in their treatment of their hostages). Hamas, by their past actions, does not seem to be the kind of organization that loves to behead babies, tie up and burn people alive, engage in mass rape, etc. etc. Israel, however, has proven itself to be a completely unreliable source of information, especially about anything pertaining to the Palestinians. The reaction to disbelieve israel is the right one, because not only is 10/7 and everything thereafter the exact thing they have a direct interest in lying about, the stakes are, literally, an active genocide of their captive population. Even if we agree it doesn't excuse a genocide, we need to be incredibly critical of all of their attempted justifications! To do otherwise is to give israel a level of implicit trust that is, frankly, kind of dumbfounding -- at least to me. To me it seems like it arises from some sort of fundamental trust in the west and its allies, or favored media organizations, or maybe an especial sensitivity to the Jewish people that is placed onto israel as the (self-declared) singular protector of Jewishness? I don't mean to insinuate that you or anyone else is operating from these conscious or unconscious principles, I honestly don't know and don't understand. I feel like if this were very nearly any other conflict a lot of this would be painfully obvious. How often are Russian media sources trusted on the depravity and unwholesomeness of the Ukrainians? At any rate, I'd genuinely appreciate any sort of post from anyone generally trusts israel's information on the events of 10/7 and why.
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Jan 14, 2024 23:24
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The reason I trust "israel's information on the events of 10/7" is because there is a shitload of video evidence of Hamas committing ISIS-style atrocities, including independently verified dashcam footage and videos recorded and posted by Hamas itself. Their PR had a very different tone back when they were powertripping over slaughtering a large number of civilians rather than hiding in holes and begging the UN to save them.
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Jan 15, 2024 00:01
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The reason I don't trust information coming out of Israel is the direct military censorship and extensive history of being proven liars. Edit: in fact it's just a pretty good policy to not trust the guys running the concentration camp the attack came from Adenoid Dan fucked around with this message at 00:13 on Jan 15, 2024 |
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Jan 15, 2024 00:08
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I agree with the PE's post, but would add that at least a few people (including myself) have expressed the additional reservation that as Israel is an occupying power operating a concentration camp, and as it is the party that pretty much controls the living conditions in Gaza, the responsibility for the outcomes of that policy falls on Israel. Israel has chosen to imprison and slowly genocide the population of Gaza. Any atrocities that follow from that are Israel's fault, since they could easily change the conditions that are fueling support for Hamas, and are choosing not to. Esran fucked around with this message at 00:22 on Jan 15, 2024 |
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Jan 15, 2024 00:20
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Irony Be My Shield posted:The reason I trust "israel's information on the events of 10/7" is because there is a shitload of video evidence of Hamas committing ISIS-style atrocities, including independently verified dashcam footage and videos recorded and posted by Hamas itself. Their PR had a very different tone back when they were powertripping over slaughtering a large number of civilians rather than hiding in holes and begging the UN to save them. There was footage from Hamas and dashcams from 10/7 recording Hamas attacks on military installations and kibbutzes. I think this is something which no one, including Hamas, denies. But, as far as I know, there is no footage that corroborates the lurid narratives being pushed by israel (beheadings, lighting people on fire, torture, rape, etc). Except, I suppose, for the footage israel claims to have but also won't show anyone except for selected journalists and various celebrities Again this is to the best of my knowledge. Correct me if I'm wrong but outside of some select audiences, so to speak, no one has seen footage to corroborate a lot of the israeli stories. I recall that some journalists who have seen the israel footage reported that it a mix stuff they had seen before and/or did not actually consist of any footage of what it was being used to corroborate. If anyone has this handy I'd appreciate a link but in the meantime I'll see if I can find it.
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Jan 15, 2024 00:21
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Irony Be My Shield posted:The reason I trust "israel's information on the events of 10/7" is because there is a shitload of video evidence of Hamas committing ISIS-style atrocities, including independently verified dashcam footage and videos recorded and posted by Hamas itself. Their PR had a very different tone back when they were powertripping over slaughtering a large number of civilians rather than hiding in holes and begging the UN to save them. What is an ISIS-style atrocity? Is this a technical term? What makes it different from normal atrocity?
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Jan 15, 2024 00:37
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Wait are ISIS bad again? I thought they were good now because they are condemning Hamas. It's hard to keep up. First 'Hamas is ISIS'. Now 'even ISIS condemn Hamas'.
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Jan 15, 2024 00:47
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