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Poil posted:Can you beat the campaigns without making overlords? Yes. You can beat the campaigns without building anything. Kerrigan can literally solo the campaign.
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Jan 14, 2024 16:08
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Lt. Danger posted:Kerrigan doesn't say Lasarra is as bad as her, she specifically says she is worse - there is more blood on her hands than Lasarra's. you should just read what the line says instead of imagining what it might say. not trying to pick on you, the whole thread is misunderstanding the line (tellingly - conflating morality with sympathy) Here's the line we're talking about : "We are all covered in blood. There may be more on my hands than yours, but in the end we are both killers." That there's more blood on Kerrigan's hands seems like it's not really the point, though. The emphasis is on the idea that "we're both killers" and "we're all covered in blood." This is a very typical "we're not so different" kind of line that is a common justification for one's morally questionable actions. Again, she says she's not going to justify herself, but then she goes on to try to do just that. (Had to do a big edit because I actually misunderstood what you were saying!  )quote:Lasarra's argument is that Kerrigan is bad because it is wrong to kill other people (even to save your own life). Kerrigan's response is that Lasarra's argument is weak because she and the protoss also kill other people What she actually says is that Larissa's argument is weak because the Protoss have killed billions of Zerg, specifically. This is silly because the Zerg in their billions are not typically portrayed as "people." So Kerrigan is making an implicit argument for the value of Zerg life, basically. Which, even if that's fine because "it's ok to kill Zergs because we don't like them" is just chauvinism, Kerrigan isn't in a strong position to make this case when she treats the Zerg as disposable war dogs. Her self-justification doesn't work because it's based on a premise ("Zerg are people too") that her actions suggest she doesn't believe. Unless the point is to portray her as a huge hypocrite. Like, for all that you're calling me out for "imagining what the line might say," it kinda seems like you're doing that here? If Kerrigan were making the case you're saying she's making, she'd say things like, "Oh, so the Protoss never kill anyone to survive?" or "Hey where to Archons come from?" or whatever. She didn't, though. She very specifically called out "killing billions of Zerg" like that's comparable to killing any number of thinking, feeling, agency-bearing Protoss colonists, and that's silly because it's not, most Zerg are not people, and she herself does not treat most Zerg like they are people (or anything more than tools). GunnerJ fucked around with this message at 16:56 on Jan 14, 2024 |
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Jan 14, 2024 16:22
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GunnerJ posted:This is a very typical "we're not so different" kind of line that is a common justification for one's morally questionable actions. again, we should focus on what is written, not what it sounds like in other texts quote:If Kerrigan were making the case you're saying she's making, she'd say things like, "Oh, so the Protoss never kill anyone to survive?" she does say this, she just doesn't phrase it as a rhetorical question Kerrigan mentions "billions of zerg" because Lasarra says Kerrigan will kill "thousands", trying to guilt her with utilitarian quantity. through the conversation Kerrigan is throwing Lasarra's words back in her face: "you are killing noncombatants/you will bring soldiers to kill me", "you will kill thousands to save yourself/you killed billions to save yourselves" it's not really relevant how Kerrigan treats zergs because Kerrigan never says that killing is wrong. Kerrigan is extremely fine with killing; it's Lasarra that tries to claim killing is wrong so Kerrigan won't kill her. but Lasarra doesn't believe killing is wrong, just that killing protoss is wrong - she's more than happy to kill zergs that said I don't think Kerrigan does treat zergs as without value. in the same update she complains that Abathur won't euthanise his failed experiments. zerg don't have the same concept of individuality - of liberal human rights - as humans and protoss do, but that isn't the same as zergs not valuing capital-Z Zerg-dom as a collective whole the long and short of it is that we (you lot anyway; I am enlightened) do not consider zergs equal to humans or protoss, because zergs are stupid - they are like slaves or animals, famously undeserving of compassion. when it comes down to it, we would rather a billion zergs be killed than one protoss die. which, I mean... if Lasarra had just said that, I think Kerrigan would have respected her a lot more, and the thread wouldn't have to have this discussion in the first place
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Jan 14, 2024 17:43
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 there's actually zero difference between zergs and protosses. you imbecile. you loving moron
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Jan 14, 2024 18:01
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Torchlighter posted:We will get to that. It will not be satisfying. Let's Play! › We will get to that. It will not be satisfying. - Let's Play Starcraft 2: Heart of the Swarm
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Jan 14, 2024 18:36
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Lt. Danger posted:again, we should focus on what is written, not what it sounds like in other texts Perception matters a lot in writing. Even if I were to accept your read wholeheartedly and agree that you're correctly conveying the writer's intent, you do see how its very easy for someone to read what Kerrigan said and infer that she's saying killing zerg and killing sentient beings aren't really different, right? It's a bad line because it simultaneously overexplains the core sentiment (Everyone in starcraft is a killer and the idea that your cause is noble and therefore your killings are justified is self-deception that I don't indulge in) and underexplains the evidence it offers to support that sentiment. It's a line that clearly needed revision, and even if we just dismiss it as "one line in a huge story," its indicative of a larger problem with Kerrigan's characterization and an overall crisis of factional identity for the Zerg that the writers really don't address very well. We'll keep seeing it all the way through HotS
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Jan 14, 2024 18:50
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"Zerg have, without fail, always tried to kill you every time you come across them, including invading your homeworld and trying to extinguish your whole species. But your self-defense is morally questionable as well."Lt. Danger posted:whole lotta slave morality itt Seriously, gently caress off. Blizzard does not need someone going to bat for, "The people facing literal extinction are bad too for fighting back." There's no hypocrisy there.
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Jan 14, 2024 18:52
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If Kerrigan wanted to claim the moral high ground she could have gone at the fact the protoss are trying to terraform a world that has native life. They'd have killed more innocents than Kerrigan is about to, albeit just animals.
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Jan 14, 2024 18:56
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The Zerg themselves are great. I like them. Evil's good. Evil's fun. Evil gets poo poo done.
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Jan 14, 2024 19:36
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I'm starting to think none of you have read Blindsight
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Jan 14, 2024 19:38
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Why are you like this.
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Jan 14, 2024 19:43
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painedforever posted:The Zerg themselves are great. I like them. 
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Jan 14, 2024 19:47
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Mazerunner posted:(In fact, the Protoss stop being described as pure of form, once the Xel'naga no longer care about that. It's a defunct, obsolete descriptor. When the Overmind learns of their existence, it goes "oh, they are strong" not "oh they are pure of form") I distinctly remembered the Overmind explicitly talking about purity of form and essence at some point on Aiur in the first Zerg campaign. I scanned through the SC1 LP and found the quote I was looking for at the very end of its last mission: JohnKilltrane posted:
Merging the "purities" of the two species was something very significant to it, even long after killing the Xel'naga who had been watching the Zerg. More than being something beneficial, it talks about it like a kind of divine fate.
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Jan 14, 2024 20:17
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Now shall the events set into motion so long ago be made complete. For the Protoss too were created by the Xel’Naga. They were the first creation, gifted with a purity of form. And we were the second creation, blessed with a purity of essence. Indeed, our two species are but opposite facets of a greater whole. Soon shall our two races be made as one. Thenceforth shall all feel the wrath of the eternal Swarm… For the hour of judgement is come!
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Lt. Danger posted:I'm starting to think none of you have read Blindsight Ah yes, the book that hinges on the notion that a race can have an interstellar civilization while being incapable of conscious thought and operating purely on fight-or-flight instinct.
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Jan 14, 2024 20:21
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Alpha3KV posted:I distinctly remembered the Overmind explicitly talking about purity of form and essence at some point on Aiur in the first Zerg campaign. I scanned through the SC1 LP and found the quote I was looking for at the very end of its last mission: Remember though, we learned in the Pondering in WoL that the Overmind had no free will and this was all actually the work and desires of Amon.
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Jan 14, 2024 20:27
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painedforever posted:The Zerg themselves are great. I like them. This is my beef with HotS: they didn't make Kerrigan monstrous enough. Kerrigan waffling with like "Dear Protoss Snowflakes, you label me a murderer yet you also kill Zerg, curious" just doesn't do it for me. I prefer the approach they took in the past with badguy campaigns where it was just "Okay now you're playing as an irredeemable piece of poo poo." There's just something fun about "hell yes we're the baddies." Like what if the conversation went "Do you understand? We are only colonists, and you are killing us." "Because killing colonists is badass. Next question."
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Jan 14, 2024 20:30
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Lasarra: Do you understand? We are only colonists, and you are killing us. Kerrigan: Come at the Queen, you'd best not miss 💅
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Jan 14, 2024 20:38
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GunnerJ posted:(I actually really dislike how their design changed between games to be less reptilian...) At least they didn't do a real Blizzard and give the Protoss breasts. Though, reptilian? I always saw them as more... abstract, their skin was kind of scaley, sure, but they don't even have mouths(anywhere we can see).
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Jan 14, 2024 20:39
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Just the scaley-ness, then. Like Lasarra for example is ~95% just a blue-skinned space nerd, with only a few scales here and there.
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Jan 14, 2024 20:41
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Don’t worry, all your questions will be answered soon By which I mean made irrelevant in face of the biggest retcon in the history of Blizzard’s games
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Jan 14, 2024 20:43
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Lt. Danger posted:I'm starting to think none of you have read Blindsight I did, and I mostly remember it being extremely edgy, like most Watts books.
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Jan 14, 2024 21:09
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PurpleXVI posted:At least they didn't do a real Blizzard and give the Protoss breasts. I have bad news for you.
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Jan 14, 2024 21:29
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painedforever posted:Evil's good. Evil's fun. Evil gets poo poo done. This is why I like the Dungeon Keeper games.
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Jan 14, 2024 22:14
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Kith posted:I have bad news for you. oh for gently caress's sake
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Jan 14, 2024 22:20
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JohnKilltrane posted:There's just something fun about "hell yes we're the baddies." see also: the GLA campaigns in C&C Generals
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Jan 14, 2024 22:40
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PurpleXVI posted:oh for gently caress's sake Yeah. Give it time, we'll get there.
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Jan 14, 2024 22:57
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VostokProgram posted:see also: the GLA campaigns in C&C Generals Westwood was always very good at making the "bad" factions truly bad. Even in Dune 2, the Harkonnen are coded as evil as gently caress as they just glass the Emperor in the final cutscene, compared to the Atreides reading a bunch of law books and poo poo and the Ordos revelling in the fact that they can gently caress around with the Emperor and use him like a puppet now that they have broken him. Understandable, they're the ones that gave us Kane and Yuri
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Jan 14, 2024 23:17
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Alpha3KV posted:I distinctly remembered the Overmind explicitly talking about purity of form and essence at some point on Aiur in the first Zerg campaign. I scanned through the SC1 LP and found the quote I was looking for at the very end of its last mission: alright I'll concede that. And of course the Zerg always want to take only the best genetics into the swarm, so if the Protoss have the best genetics (a label known as 'purity of form') then yeah. Though I think yeah the Overmind perceives this as necessary and even divine fate- but that's it seeing things through the lens of its evolution/consumption drive. So it's kind of synthesized the Xel'naga's quest to create the perfect life form with it's own desire to be the perfect lifeform- to the Xel'naga, the Zerg are a success even without the Protoss, but to the Overmind, it always hungers and thus feels 'incomplete' and assigns greater importance to its drive to acquire the best genetics (and the Protoss' previous claim to 'best genetics') than might actually be the case. And based on the 'Eternal Swarm' line, it sees the result as still being fundamentally Zerg, and part of the Overmind. Not some new, distinct thing. (So now that I think of it, Abathur is using 'essence' with completely the wrong meaning (at least by SC1 standards). His purview is genetic manipulation- which is 'form'. 'Essence' is his desire to do a good job at genetic manipulation)
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Jan 14, 2024 23:18
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PurpleXVI posted:oh for gently caress's sake oh for gently caress's sake count: 1
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Jan 15, 2024 01:07
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Lasarra: RARG PROTOSS DESERVE TO BE TREATED LIKE SENTIENTS NO ONE HAS THE RIGHT TO MURDER THOUSANDS HURRRR Kerrigan: I just want to murder all the colonists and take over this world, but, hey, that's your opinion and I'm fine with that. Looks like you've got some growing up to do.
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Jan 15, 2024 02:03
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Mazerunner posted:(So now that I think of it, Abathur is using 'essence' with completely the wrong meaning (at least by SC1 standards). His purview is genetic manipulation- which is 'form'. 'Essence' is his desire to do a good job at genetic manipulation) Maybe. We've already seen that the facts surrounding the Overmind are not exactly entirely canon or clear as the SC1 manual has put it, however, and as this and the final campaign continues some of those questions are going to start showing up more and more. EDIT: actually... I think he's using it correctly. 'Form' is strictly physical, Abathur being able to manipulate and weave genetic strands would be the essence of it, since regardless of 'form'... it is still Zerg. Torchlighter fucked around with this message at 08:41 on Jan 15, 2024 |
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Jan 15, 2024 08:30
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Since nobody has done it yet, Price is right rule, Essence Count: 1
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Jan 16, 2024 16:55
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Bobathur Barkalisk reminds you to spay & neuter your broods
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Jan 16, 2024 17:41
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Kaldir 2: Shoot the Messenger Video: Shoot the Messenger  Oh boy, time to kill more colonists!       Should we destroy it then?      On top of the Hydralisk, today also unlocks the Lair. Admittedly, that's because Hydras have been pushed up the tech tree a bit, with Hydralisk Dens now requiring a Lair to morph.  My starting army consists of a few Roaches and Hydralisks, with an uprooted Spore Crawler to remind you that you can reposition them as needed.  Hydras aren't as mandatory now, since I also have access to Swarm Queens for anti-air, but they deal significantly more damage to balance things out.   The first Shuttle starts not even a minute into the mission.  It'll move in a straight line from its spawn to the conduit. Eight waves of Shuttles will be sent out, and I lose if any of them escape.  As you might expect, the first is an undefended freebie.  1000 health is a good bit of bulk, but also Kinetic Blast exists so lol.  If a Shuttle gets close enough, it starts a 30 second timer before it escapes.   There's some exploring to be done for the bonus, so there's also protoss standing around.  The thing these Stalkers are guarding is the bonus. Pop it open, and Kerrigan gains a lev-  gently caress.  You will never leave this ball of ice!Run.   There we go.   Large quantities of biomass. Good to have. Can use to improve Swarm.Okay, Abathur's line is from cracking the stasis chamber, but the timing on it makes him look like he's refering to all the protoss.   It's good to start a fight against a Shuttle as far away from the conduit as possible, so I have more time to deal with the escort. Even in the worst case scenario, the Shuttle will keep moving while the fight is happening and run into my Spore Crawlers while the fight is still going.  Hey you know what this reminds me of?  The Evacuation. Colonists are randomly hit by the zerg, and are forced to push through zerg lines to try and escape. Now, I'm not saying the writers intentionally made two missions in this chain call back to the Colonist mission chain from Wings, but it does make Kerrigan look even worse.  In the bottom right corner is a frozen Hatchery guarded by a few guys.  They're bringing more warp conduits online. I sense two more activating.Free expansion! Also surprise there are more conduits around the map.  Anyways, Shuttle.  It dies while I get this base running.  Second bonus.   Well, that makes things a little more complicated.Surprise they have other bases.  I accidentally push too close while going after the Shuttle and pick a fight with some other defenders.     And while I'm still able to win, Kerrigan dies in the process.  Here's the little cocoon Kerrigan naps in while she revives. A neat thing is that if she speaks a line while dead, it'll use the portrait of the cocoon.  And now they'll send out multiple waves of Shuttles.  Sent to different conduits.  But also I have a good army now.  So it isn't much trouble.  And now all that's left is one more bonus.   Just like The Evacuation, Shoot The Messenger feels just a few waves too long.  I have two waves to go, but my army is nearly maxed out and I have so many minerals banked I could make a solid wall of Spore Crawlers at each conduit and call it a day.  Unlike the warp conduits, you can safely destroy the bays the Shuttles are launching from. Doing so even ends the mission early! However, doing that would involve fighting through multiple protoss bases that have their full tech tree available (except Dark Templars, since the player never gets non-static Detection in Heart and Legacy) and that is not happening with what I have now.   My bases are starting to mine out, so I can throw all those spare Drones into defenses.   A minute later, and the final wave of Shuttles is sent out.  The protoss have launched a mothership. They must be using it to cloak shuttles.Now, you'd think that three full Shuttle escorts backed by a Mothership's cloak would be a terrifying final challenge. All those units, and you can't even see them!  Eeeeeeeeeexcept everyone going to the same conduit means I can grab every Spore Crawler I have and slap them in front of it, instead of having to split my defenses three ways.  And the way the bases are set up makes one Shuttle arrive much earlier, and that one doesn't have the Mothership.   The Mothership can cloak the Shuttle, at least.  But there goes the expedition's last hope of calling Shakuras. Maybe if they, I don't know, didn't put a massive gap between their outpost and their one way home they would have had an easier time.   You've done it, my queen. The protoss threat is removed. Nothing is done until they are all dead.  Shoot the Messenger - Complete the "Shoot the Messenger" mission in the Heart of the Swarm campaign. Warp in Peace - Don't let a Protoss Shuttle begin Warping Out in the "Shoot the Messenger" mission. Extreme Nexism - Destroy 2 Protoss Nexuses in the "Shoot the Messenger" mission on Normal difficulty. My Cool Bay Explosions - Destroy all 3 Protoss Docking Bays in the "Shoot the Messenger" mission on Hard difficulty. Failure to Launch - Destroy a Protoss Docking Bay in less than 11 minutes in the "Shoot the Messanger" mission on Normal difficulty. BisbyWorl fucked around with this message at 05:01 on Feb 6, 2024 |
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Jan 20, 2024 04:18
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Izsha, are we the baddies?
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Jan 20, 2024 07:26
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BisbyWorl posted:My Cool Bay Explosions BOO. 
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Jan 20, 2024 07:50
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BisbyWorl posted:Unlike the warp conduits, you can safely destroy the bays the Shuttles are launching from. Doing so even ends the mission early! You absolutely can do that with what you have now. Source: I did it because I was bored waiting on the shuttles Roach Hydra is a staple composition that can solve mostly anything in the game. Omobono posted:
Wait, it gets better.
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Jan 20, 2024 08:22
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I've played the game. I've got a rant loaded up for a future mission chain and its terrible terrible retcons.
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Jan 20, 2024 08:32
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In theory, its interesting that you can take a completely passive approach to this mission. Touching back on the last mission and how its theoretically possible to make a lot of progress on the mission objectives while minimizing Protoss casualties through use of the cold, here all you need to do on paper is build up a blockade around the portals, putting the onus on the Protoss to walk into them. These shuttles are couriers, they're trying to get back to Shakuras because you took out the communications so they can bring back a massive force to exterminate the Zerg, so it wouldn't be all that hard to justify preventing that without making Kerrigan seem Bloodthirsty, and making it clear that Kerrigan isn't killing anyone who isn't charging into a pointless death because they're that desperate to kill her would make a lot of sense in that regard. On the flip end of the coin, if the player WANTS to be Bloodthirsty, the option of ripping into the Protoss bases, taking out the shuttlebays and killing everyone else while you're at it in a wanton slaughter is an equally viable option in gameplay terms. Of course, I say this is interesting "in theory," because it doesn't jive tonally at all with Kerrigan's demeanor and commentary. She doesn't even spare a thought for the idea that she's in a situation where she can keep her hands clean, and she continually taunts the Protoss over comms that she's going to build a house out of their skulls. It's a pretty significant and weirdly unprompted escalation of her rhetoric. She was ambivalent and heartless with her prisoner, and in the last mission, but there's clear wrath on display here. We could ascribe this to anger she feels about that slaughtered Brood Queen, like I mused about last time, but that's just me head-cannoning, there's nothing really in the text that supports such a thing. This whole questline starts off with a ton of potential. A tragic confrontation with the Protoss that should have been avoidable but for both sides stubbornness and fear, mechanics that give you an opportunity to take a less or more violent path based on your personal preferences, a Protoss prisoner to debate with, the shadow of a Brood Queen whose intelligence and ultimate fate at the hands of her enemies resonates with Kerrigan on a deep level. Instead of making the most of those story pieces, it runs itself right off the rails. 
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Jan 20, 2024 08:34
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Omobono posted:
TeeQueue posted:Essentially, yes.
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