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I thought about Gog and Jadis, but Jadis doesn't believe so much as 'know' everything, and Gog was there. Not sure if she'd just uncritically accept it otherwise or just think it was a really lovely joke.
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Jan 15, 2024 17:17
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Since Allison has learned how to refuse to die is Jadis's knowledge of Allison dying in her 50's really accurate?
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Jan 15, 2024 18:34
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Horace Kinch posted:Since Allison has learned how to refuse to die is Jadis's knowledge of Allison dying in her 50's really accurate? The thing about being able to refuse death is it just means you only die when you want to.
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Jan 15, 2024 18:36
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Horace Kinch posted:Since Allison has learned how to refuse to die is Jadis's knowledge of Allison dying in her 50's really accurate? pointing to the words JADIS KNOWS EVERYTHING in 500-foot tall neon lettering
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Jan 15, 2024 18:37
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What if she would've lived a lot longer but by Jadis putting a number on it that guarantees she starts smoking, which always reduces the age of death, so that is pre-baked into the calculation?
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Jan 15, 2024 18:39
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Yes, reactions to Jadis’ statements are included in the information in Jadis’ statements, because she knows everything.
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Jan 15, 2024 18:41
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YaketySass posted:ABBADON was questioned once by his disciples at his speaking house. The questions were the following: *Maya-related exceptions may apply.
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Jan 15, 2024 18:55
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It’s not like dying stopped zoss
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Jan 15, 2024 18:57
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Reclaimer posted:What if she would've lived a lot longer but by Jadis putting a number on it that guarantees she starts smoking, which always reduces the age of death, so that is pre-baked into the calculation? Jadis tells Allison when she dies because telling Allison when she dies is what Jadis does and that exact time is what Jadis tells because telling that exact time is what Jadis does. She does not affect the outcome.
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Jan 15, 2024 19:00
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Death is only the end if you accept it as one. But also I'm gonna hope Allison will be quite content by that time.
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Jan 15, 2024 19:16
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maswastaken posted:Jadis does not choose actions or their outcomes, she knows everything that's going to happen and as far as she is concerned her own "actions" are just "what's going to happen". I dunno how you can possibly interact with someone in a way that doesn't affect anything at all, especially when you're giving them hard (and weird) truths like exact year of death. She affects the outcome because that's what she does, whether or not she has agency she's still an agent of change in that sense.
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Jan 15, 2024 19:25
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Jadis' actions don't affect outcomes from her perspective (because her perspective is all-encompassing) but her actions sure can affect how other people react from those people's perspectives.
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Jan 15, 2024 19:40
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Allison may not have the same time of death if Jadis had told her something different but that wasn't going to happen. Allison may not have the same time of death if she hadn't spoked to Jadis at all but that wasn't going to happen. There is one past, one present, one future. There is no alternative timeline. Nothing has changed because change is impossible. Jadis simply knows what happens.
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Jan 15, 2024 19:42
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I think the main thing to take away from Jadis isn't how knowing everything would work exactly, but how much it would totally suck to know everything
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Jan 15, 2024 19:43
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Should've seen it coming https://twitter.com/Orbitaldropkick/status/1747000349070688413
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Jan 15, 2024 21:59
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Sorry Abaddon, we're all too full of brainworms from various stories (be they comics or anime or otherwise) over the years telling us that there's no fixed future and if anyone says there is you can beat the system by being determined enough.
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Jan 15, 2024 22:14
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Seems like a lot of people are just following YISUN's advice and ignoring the answers.
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Jan 15, 2024 22:17
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Discourse more like Discord lmao bunch of idiots here.
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Jan 15, 2024 22:18
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The correct answer is to have Allison ask everyone's exact same questions in the comic and then have Jadis refuse to answer
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Jan 15, 2024 22:31
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Rotten Red Rod posted:The correct answer is to have Allison ask everyone's exact same questions in the comic and then have Jadis refuse to answer Jadis: "I saw this coming and your questions are all dumb"
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Jan 15, 2024 22:51
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Jadis could have told you this was a bad idea, but that's not how it went.
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Jan 15, 2024 23:03
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Jadis prayed to the gods that we would be kind to Abaddon, knowing that it was naught but an expression of pity.
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Jan 15, 2024 23:11
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girl dick energy posted:
Thanks it’s perfect!
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Jan 15, 2024 23:28
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lol, has the discourse been circling around Jadis' omniscience in other places that discuss the comic like reddit and discord or is that tweet pretty explicitly about this thread? the last few pages have been sublime. I have the vaguest notion that at some point I read a discussion about Gog also being aware of the cycles and it eventually being dismissed out of lack of textual evidence because the worms could have just happened in this cycle and that's that. I'm not sure where I stand as far as the implication that the same demiurges always win with minor variations (Mammon purchases his key in every timeline?), but it makes sense in the context of KSBD's exploration of a deterministic universe, so whatever. I think that Gog being aware of the cycles and basically being the ultimate nihilist shitposter is fun for the story and I'm curious what her ultimate role will be: I could honestly even see her being set up as the actual final boss of KSBD in a Kefka sort of way.
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Jan 15, 2024 23:35
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Tosk posted:lol, has the discourse been circling around Jadis' omniscience in other places that discuss the comic like reddit and discord or is that tweet pretty explicitly about this thread? the former Tosk posted:I could honestly even see her being set up as the actual final boss of KSBD in a Kefka sort of way. If Metatron isn't the final confrontation I'll be pretty surprised.
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Jan 15, 2024 23:38
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I still think Incubus is the best foil to Allison at a character and theme level; he has the most robust relationship with her, since book 3 or earlier, and he represents the flip side of her revelation - he’s learned all the same things she has but he consistently chooses violence and self-aggrandizement. Metatron is the ultimate expression of fatalism, but Incubus is like Allison someone who is informed of fatalism and just goes for it anyways; he’s the best mirror, also, in a story that has had gendered expectations as a key term since page 1. He’s also the only one who recognized her potential and empathized with her powerlessness early on, in his hosed way, and he’s been her tutor. If he doesn’t end up being the true final challenge, the one who would ruin everything for his own ambition, I’ll honestly be a bit disappointed; if he gets silo’d off to be Maya’s foil it’ll be a bit weaker than I think it could be. Jagganoth is clearly more powerful but lacks that precisely inversion. To develop this: the key idea of the comic is ‘letting the stagnant blood of history flow again’ - the insistence on change and possibility, that the world is neither perfect nor complete but rather continues and changes. Jagganoth wants to reduce the world to a perfect end state (apocalypse) but Incubus just wants things to flow again, to bring about war not as a cleansing final challenge but as a constant proving-ground where he can rise to the top. Incubus wants history to move so that ambition and attempt can rule, and so is Allison’s reflection; he is a ‘hero’ who will make the stagnant blood flow, but for him the blood flowing is the whole point rather than an attempt to make the world better. Ambition and change for their own sake, for his sake. Joe Slowboat fucked around with this message at 23:49 on Jan 15, 2024 |
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Jan 15, 2024 23:41
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nimby posted:One cycle was Zoss eating the worm out of a combination of curiosity and desperation, which meant Gog would live on eternally in a multiverse that was just an endless mass of herself. She eventually hit the reset button herself out of sheer boredom. In reality, this has been every cycle and Gog is just Undertale-ing her way through existence.
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Jan 15, 2024 23:43
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Joe Slowboat posted:I still think Incubus is the best foil to Allison at a character and theme level; he has the most robust relationship with her, since book 3 or earlier, and he represents the flip side of her revelation - he’s learned all the same things she has but he consistently chooses violence and self-aggrandizement. Right. All of this stuff about how pondering the future is for nerds and all that matters is to be the one who acts is something Incubus could happily endorse. Plus, their last encounter ended in him inflicting Allison's worst loss since the start of the story. At the same time though, I expect him to take a bit of a backseat in the narrative because we know his deal through and through, including his limitations.
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Jan 15, 2024 23:46
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Incubus strikes me as akin to a failed heir The way Zoss chooses people doesn’t seem to bear that out though, he just chose some random dude with potential (?) Has it ever been said on-panel or otherwise what Zoss’ criteria is or why he was gunning for Zaid
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Jan 15, 2024 23:50
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YaketySass posted:Right. All of this stuff about how pondering the future is for nerds and all that matters is to be the one who acts is something Incubus could happily endorse. Plus, their last encounter ended in him inflicting Allison's worst loss since the start of the story. See I think those limitations are also the limitations of Allison’s current life-affirming Nietzschean philosophy, is the thing. He is her, but bad. So that makes him more compelling to me than Jagganoth, Gog, or even Metatron. E: I can see him being the ‘scouring of the shire’ type final challenge, where the huge mythic victory is achieved but he remains in the world and must be dealt with, after what is the climax in one sense (Metatron, Zoss) but with massive emotional and thematic weight nonetheless.
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Jan 15, 2024 23:50
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Wonder if Zoss ever tried making Jagganoth his heir just to see what happens Zoss has the ability to well and truly gently caress up and start over Does Zoss have to conquer heaven again each time he resets? It’s probably pretty easy for him after doing it an infinite number of times. Assuming gog is telling the truth there was a speed bump, but only the first time, after which Z knows or can prevent it from coming
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Jan 15, 2024 23:56
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Victis posted:Incubus strikes me as akin to a failed heir IMHO there's been an increasingly obvious visual cue as to why he chose Zaid. Joe Slowboat posted:See I think those limitations are also the limitations of Allison’s current life-affirming Nietzschean philosophy, is the thing. He is her, but bad. I 100% agree but I'm not sure the comic will ever adress this. First because there isn't much time left to swerve into interrogating that (especially since the deep lore about the loops is still in focus, and beyond that there are also loose ends pertaining to the other characters), and second because Allison's conclusions have been treated with a lot of reverence so far. I expect the comic to focus more on Allison's existential epiphany as a thematic capstone, because dealing with the massive issues with power and morality, etc. is too big for a comic that ultimately has always had a greater focus on individualistic self-actualization, even and especially with its antagonists. I could be wrong tho.
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Jan 16, 2024 00:01
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I stand by my position that the reversion happens to either when the heir is chosen or when Zoss vanishes, though I think it seems more likely it’s when Zoss vanishes now. Which is less interesting than when it’s the heir being chosen, but so it goes.
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Jan 16, 2024 00:01
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YaketySass posted:IMHO there's been an increasingly obvious visual cue as to why he chose Zaid. I think it can still be done! “The villain emphasizes why self-actualization and affirmation must be alloyed with a recognition that everyone else is also, equally, capable of self-actualization and affirmation” would work fine without undermining that revelation, just recognizing that it can’t become narcissistic self-regard. E: but also I think there’s a very good chance you are correct and that trajectory will still be fun to read, I just think the thing Incubus has going has some great potential I want to see realized.
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Jan 16, 2024 00:03
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A problem with Incubus is that the hold he has over Allison is at its strongest when she's afraid of being weak. If she truly believes that whatever happens, happens, then that already shrinks the range of what they can possibly argue about. Anyway I anticipate these two's inevitable reunion to be one of the most dramatic ones precisely because it's so personal between them. I'm just not sure if there's any crack left for him to exploit though - especially since, narratively, killing Cio is something he'd have a hard time outdoing. He'll likely come out the loser of their next meeting. Again, all baseless speculations.
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Jan 16, 2024 00:15
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Victis posted:Wonder if Zoss ever tried making Jagganoth his heir just to see what happens Could Zoss be Boimler?
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Jan 16, 2024 00:31
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How do you all interpret Gog's expression in the panel after Allison asks her how many cycles there have been? (beyond conveying 'a lot') I agree that Incubus generally represents the best thematic foil to Allison and would be the most interesting to explore together with the consequences of ending the cyclical nature of the multiverse and seeing what happens when the blood of history flows again. In that sense, calling Gog a secret final boss wasn't very correct, but if she outlives Jagganoth she definitely will have to be dealt with because she's probably the next greatest existential threat, especially given the implications of her dialogue on this page. It would be really interesting to see Gog in the period she's referring to in the current page, when she was the greatest of the demiurges. I wouldn't be surprised if she were nothing like her current form, maybe not even a hivemind of worms at all. Becoming a kind of parasitic cosmic horror could have simply been the answer she found to the physical storage problem she mentions on this very page.
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Jan 16, 2024 00:43
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Tosk posted:How do you all interpret Gog's expression in the panel after Allison asks her how many cycles there have been? (beyond conveying 'a lot') Letting the thought linger, because any literal answer would be less effective at selling her point than whatever Allison's imagination is coming up with.
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Jan 16, 2024 01:34
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Tosk posted:How do you all interpret Gog's expression in the panel after Allison asks her how many cycles there have been? (beyond conveying 'a lot')
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Jan 16, 2024 01:48
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Victis posted:The way Zoss chooses people doesn’t seem to bear that out though, he just chose some random dude with potential (?) Also in retrospect the fact he's only tried men this entire time looks way worse! Then again maybe he doesn't remember as much as Gog since he doesn't have countless brains.
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Jan 16, 2024 01:55
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