Ask me about rice.

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Ask/Tell > Ask me about rice.

dino.: Mar 28, 2010; Yip Yip, bitch.

Buttchocks posted:

Are weevils an issue since you are importing and aging a metric fuckton of rice? I had weevils in my rice once and it was a mess.

20 metric tons to be exact. Per container. And we do like 30 - 50 containers a week in imports.

You ever want to got a rice person riled up, ask them what are the mitigation procedures for bugs in rice. Hooooo mama. Buckle up kids, this is going to be a loving ride.

As soon as the rice is milled to the degree it needs to be, and is ready for shipping or storage, it has to be treated. Period, the end, no questions. Why? Because rice insects are many and varied, and tenacious little fucks.

For organic product, you can't use traditional chemical fumigants, even though it doesn't show up in testable amounts in the final product. For organic product, you have to fumigate in CO2, a warm temp, for like 14 days minimum. Why? Because CO2 doesn't kill eggs, so you need to fume that sucker until the eggs that still eggsist while fuming will hatch, and the larva can be killed off. Also, any pupa won't really be killed off, so you have to wait for the pupa to become adults so that they can get killed off. Oh. You don't have 14 days to fume this stuff because the customer needed their rice like yesterday, and you should have dispatched last week, but it was some lamp festival or something, and half your staff was "out sick" even though you told them you need to fulfil this goddamned contract on time. Fine. In that case, it's reefer time!

A 40' refrigerated container (also known as a "reefer" in the logistics business) can be ordered in cases where you need to freeze the rice to avoid/kill bugs. How long? Traditionally, rice sold in totes needs at least 30 days at -18C to kill off infection. Why do I say traditionally? IT IS NOT ENOUGH TIME ANYMORE. The loving bugs have evolved in the past 15 or so years to where they can survive 30 days. You need a minimum of 45 days under -18C temperature kept constant to make sure you go scorched earth (so to speak) on the rice.This is good news for you, because you're in India or Thailand, and the usual transit time to the USA is about 45 days. However, reefers cost more than dry containers, and are in significantly shorter supply, and all accessorial charges are doubled because they're charged by the TEU (twenty foot equivalent unit) since they're 40' and not 20' like standard dry containers. Also also, you're going to get bumped if the vessel is overbooked, because they can snurgle a 20' into whatever little pockets of space on the vessel, but the reefers need to be in specific spots where they can get plugged in to run the motor for the journey. Also, rice is a commodity food, not a luxury food. This means that the profit margins are razor thin. You can't really afford that much of a hit because Priya from production was going to her 15th grandmother's funeral that month. You'll do it if you HAVE to, but the CO2 fume is a lot cheaper and straightforward to do.

However, say you have conventional product that you're shipping out. That's "easier" but also hella dangerous. In India, they spray the absolute bejeebers out of the field with every pesticide, herbicide, and fungicide known to mankind. Basmati is a low yield crop, and sensitive to drat near everything. They're not taking any chances on losing out on product that they can sell next year (Basmati is aged, so this year's crops won't be sold at least until next year if you're a good Basmati producer). Then, when it gets into the plant, they fumigate the finished rice. What fumigant? In India, they use Methyl Bromide. Methyl Bromide is deadly toxic. As in, you inhale a little bit, and you have permanent lung damage. You inhale a little over a long time, and you're going to have brain damage. This poo poo is not a joke at all. When you're fumigating with it, you have to ensure that the entire works is AIR TIGHT. No leaks. Every time they put something under fume, they have to quadruple check that there's no air leaks at all. In a rice manufacturing or processing facility, they'll have special rooms dedicated to fumigation, so that they can mitigate any risks of inhalation by the people working there. Fumigation can also be done in the container itself (and it is!).

You first fumigate the rice as it's done processing. It's 48 hours of fumigation, and then 24 hours to air it out once it's done. Then, you throw the totes into the container, and fume the container as well. When the container arrives in the USA, the USDA and customs and border patrol will demand to see the fumigation certificate to show the concentration of the fumigant, the temperature, and how long the product has been fumed. If it's missing a fume certificate, now they're suspicious, and will be going through your container with a fine-toothed comb (also called an intensive exam). This is going to cost you an extra $1000 or so per container (if it's a 20' dry) up to $3600 (for a reefer), so loving have your docs in order, or pay the price. (In certain ports, all containers from India just automagically get "randomly" selected for intensive exam, regardless of how good the docs are.)

In Thailand, they use Phosphine, and let it run for 14 days. Phosphine IS still a toxic gas, but not nearly as much as methyl bromide. However, it takes a lot longer for it to do its job. Again, they'll include the fume certificate with the documents package when they send the container out.

Hooray, you're done now right? No more infestation. NOPE. WRONG. YES MORE INFESTATION.

Once the product comes to the final country, it's usually good practice to fume it (in the container) again. Why? It's been on a boat for 45 - 60 days. While technically you only need to fume every 60 days or so, you can't guarantee the safety of your stuff aboard a cargo vessel. What if other bugs came from other containers and hung out in this one? US Customs doesn't give a crap about flour beetles or rice weevils. They only care if there's Khapra beetle, and wood pests (found in the pallets if they're not heat treated). It can be literally crawling with rice weevils, to the point where you can't see the colour of the totes anymore, and customs don't give a poo poo, because it's not the bug they're concerned with preventing. So, to prevent that situation, you fume it as soon as it comes into your hands. What if it's organic? Off to the cold storage you go! Again, even if it's been treated with CO2 overseas, re-infestation is a serious concern, so all our customers require a minimum of 30 days in freezing (either in transit or in the warehouse in the USA) before they'll accept a load.

Well, what if even after all this, you STILL find bugs? If you're a large sized operation, you don't care as long as there's no live bugs, because you're about to throw the rice through your own cleaning machines anyway (AKA sifters, X-ray, metal detector, etc), so if they're dead, they're going to be pulled out of the product anyways. If you're a rinky dink small little repacker (so you only order like 100,000 lbs a month or less-there's one customer who we're all whining to get rid of, because they only order like 90,000 lbs of rice in a month, and are a giant pain in my rear end to service, but since they're one of our first customers, bossman wants to keep servicing their account) and don't have cleaning machinery (because smaller ones don't have space), you'll reject if there's live OR dead insects. So now does the rice get thrown out? Nope. We send it to the cleaners. That's gonna cost you like $5K - $10K per load to clean, which pretty much demolishes your profit margins, but you don't want to throw away food that can be saved.

So yes. Bugs are an issue.

therattle posted:

Weevils or pantry moths? We just dealt with an infestation of the fuckers (moths), having had one some years ago. (These came in in some shelled walnuts we bought in France in August). Luckily, having learned from previous experience, most of our open bags of food were in sealed containers. I buy rice from the refill shop (where one takes one's own containers), and when I open it to take rice there are silk threads from the moth larvae - so sealing containers is not just to keep moths and their larvae out, but also to keep them in and stop them escaping into your pantry. So I also wondered if pantry moths were a problem.

When I bring rice to my house, it goes directly into the freezer. Do not pass go, do not collect $200. Go sit in the freezer right now. It sits there for at least 3 days, if not a week. I don't care if it's organic or conventional. It's getting frozen good and solid. THEN I'll move it to the fridge for overnight so that it comes up to temp gradually. Then it gets transferred to an airtight container with an oxygen absorber if I'm going to keep it in that container longer than 3 months, or just by itself it it's less than 3 months. When I say airtight, I mean that it's a box that has a rubber gasket, so that nothing is entering or leaving that container, period. My parents sucked at food storage, so our rice consistently had bugs in when I was growing up. Making a pot of rice took forever, because you had to rinse so many times to get rid of the bugs. I'm freakishly paranoid about bugs, so I make sure to treat my grains with the utmost of disrespect. loving sit in that freezer and think about what you've done. >

DekeThornton posted:

I just came across this video on a new to me channel mostly about Mexican food and would like to give it a try. (I really like what I saw from the channel in general. A really nice vibe and nice looking recipies, at least to a Mexican cuisine novice like me.) My question is, what kind of rice is she using? We don't really get Mexican rice here in Sweden but to me it looks fairly similar to various risotto rices. Could those be used as a substitute?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7kSiLTnKw0I

Basic long grain white. That one's probably like Mahatma. The grains don't look like Carolina or Riceland. There's too many broken grains for it to be Goya.

DekeThornton posted:

Yeah, I guess I should have been more specific. I wondered about the type of rice they typically use in mexico. What kind of medium or long grain? Would basmati work? Some Japanese medium grain rice? Arborio?

In that recipe, don't use Arborio. But whatever other medium or long grain rice should work just fine.

therattle posted:

I definitely get less rice crust when I wash my rice well.

Yeah rinsing helps prevent that.

Helluva posted:

Is there anything special about black rice? What spices would go with it?

I'm not personally a huge fan of the stuff, because it's so strong tasting and firm even after it's cooked. I've found that applications where it's a supporting actor rather than the main character are helpful.

# ? Jan 13, 2024 15:38

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# ? Jun 3, 2024 10:37

david_a: Apr 24, 2010; Megamarm

What about rice from California? Surely at least the distribution process must be somewhat easier.

Is it just considered to be a way worse product?

# ? Jan 13, 2024 17:54

VictualSquid: Feb 29, 2012; Gently enveloping the target with indiscriminate love.

We mostly bought 20kg bags of broken rice when I was a kid, because it is cheaper. I assume it gets sorted at one of those sifting stages. Does that happen in the producer country or during the repacking at the destination country?

# ? Jan 13, 2024 17:57

Serjeant Buzfuz: Dec 5, 2009

Lol I was looking at the last 25 pound bag of white medium grain we bought, it's got this Korean brand name and Korean language all over it but on the back in small print is "grown in California". drat marketing people got me good.

# ? Jan 13, 2024 19:38

Helluva: Feb 7, 2011

Serjeant Buzfuz posted:

Lol I was looking at the last 25 pound bag of white medium grain we bought, it's got this Korean brand name and Korean language all over it but on the back in small print is "grown in California". drat marketing people got me good.

California is neat when it comes to agriculture though.

# ? Jan 13, 2024 19:42

mawarannahr: May 21, 2019

dino. posted:

20 metric tons to be exact. Per container. And we do like 30 - 50 containers a week in imports.

You ever want to got a rice person riled up, ask them what are the mitigation procedures for bugs in rice. Hooooo mama. Buckle up kids, this is going to be a loving ride.

As soon as the rice is milled to the degree it needs to be, and is ready for shipping or storage, it has to be treated. Period, the end, no questions. Why? Because rice insects are many and varied, and tenacious little fucks.

For organic product, you can't use traditional chemical fumigants, even though it doesn't show up in testable amounts in the final product. For organic product, you have to fumigate in CO2, a warm temp, for like 14 days minimum. Why? Because CO2 doesn't kill eggs, so you need to fume that sucker until the eggs that still eggsist while fuming will hatch, and the larva can be killed off. Also, any pupa won't really be killed off, so you have to wait for the pupa to become adults so that they can get killed off. Oh. You don't have 14 days to fume this stuff because the customer needed their rice like yesterday, and you should have dispatched last week, but it was some lamp festival or something, and half your staff was "out sick" even though you told them you need to fulfil this goddamned contract on time. Fine. In that case, it's reefer time!

A 40' refrigerated container (also known as a "reefer" in the logistics business) can be ordered in cases where you need to freeze the rice to avoid/kill bugs. How long? Traditionally, rice sold in totes needs at least 30 days at -18C to kill off infection. Why do I say traditionally? IT IS NOT ENOUGH TIME ANYMORE. The loving bugs have evolved in the past 15 or so years to where they can survive 30 days. You need a minimum of 45 days under -18C temperature kept constant to make sure you go scorched earth (so to speak) on the rice.This is good news for you, because you're in India or Thailand, and the usual transit time to the USA is about 45 days. However, reefers cost more than dry containers, and are in significantly shorter supply, and all accessorial charges are doubled because they're charged by the TEU (twenty foot equivalent unit) since they're 40' and not 20' like standard dry containers. Also also, you're going to get bumped if the vessel is overbooked, because they can snurgle a 20' into whatever little pockets of space on the vessel, but the reefers need to be in specific spots where they can get plugged in to run the motor for the journey. Also, rice is a commodity food, not a luxury food. This means that the profit margins are razor thin. You can't really afford that much of a hit because Priya from production was going to her 15th grandmother's funeral that month. You'll do it if you HAVE to, but the CO2 fume is a lot cheaper and straightforward to do.

However, say you have conventional product that you're shipping out. That's "easier" but also hella dangerous. In India, they spray the absolute bejeebers out of the field with every pesticide, herbicide, and fungicide known to mankind. Basmati is a low yield crop, and sensitive to drat near everything. They're not taking any chances on losing out on product that they can sell next year (Basmati is aged, so this year's crops won't be sold at least until next year if you're a good Basmati producer). Then, when it gets into the plant, they fumigate the finished rice. What fumigant? In India, they use Methyl Bromide. Methyl Bromide is deadly toxic. As in, you inhale a little bit, and you have permanent lung damage. You inhale a little over a long time, and you're going to have brain damage. This poo poo is not a joke at all. When you're fumigating with it, you have to ensure that the entire works is AIR TIGHT. No leaks. Every time they put something under fume, they have to quadruple check that there's no air leaks at all. In a rice manufacturing or processing facility, they'll have special rooms dedicated to fumigation, so that they can mitigate any risks of inhalation by the people working there. Fumigation can also be done in the container itself (and it is!).

You first fumigate the rice as it's done processing. It's 48 hours of fumigation, and then 24 hours to air it out once it's done. Then, you throw the totes into the container, and fume the container as well. When the container arrives in the USA, the USDA and customs and border patrol will demand to see the fumigation certificate to show the concentration of the fumigant, the temperature, and how long the product has been fumed. If it's missing a fume certificate, now they're suspicious, and will be going through your container with a fine-toothed comb (also called an intensive exam). This is going to cost you an extra $1000 or so per container (if it's a 20' dry) up to $3600 (for a reefer), so loving have your docs in order, or pay the price. (In certain ports, all containers from India just automagically get "randomly" selected for intensive exam, regardless of how good the docs are.)

In Thailand, they use Phosphine, and let it run for 14 days. Phosphine IS still a toxic gas, but not nearly as much as methyl bromide. However, it takes a lot longer for it to do its job. Again, they'll include the fume certificate with the documents package when they send the container out.

Hooray, you're done now right? No more infestation. NOPE. WRONG. YES MORE INFESTATION.

Once the product comes to the final country, it's usually good practice to fume it (in the container) again. Why? It's been on a boat for 45 - 60 days. While technically you only need to fume every 60 days or so, you can't guarantee the safety of your stuff aboard a cargo vessel. What if other bugs came from other containers and hung out in this one? US Customs doesn't give a crap about flour beetles or rice weevils. They only care if there's Khapra beetle, and wood pests (found in the pallets if they're not heat treated). It can be literally crawling with rice weevils, to the point where you can't see the colour of the totes anymore, and customs don't give a poo poo, because it's not the bug they're concerned with preventing. So, to prevent that situation, you fume it as soon as it comes into your hands. What if it's organic? Off to the cold storage you go! Again, even if it's been treated with CO2 overseas, re-infestation is a serious concern, so all our customers require a minimum of 30 days in freezing (either in transit or in the warehouse in the USA) before they'll accept a load.

Well, what if even after all this, you STILL find bugs? If you're a large sized operation, you don't care as long as there's no live bugs, because you're about to throw the rice through your own cleaning machines anyway (AKA sifters, X-ray, metal detector, etc), so if they're dead, they're going to be pulled out of the product anyways. If you're a rinky dink small little repacker (so you only order like 100,000 lbs a month or less-there's one customer who we're all whining to get rid of, because they only order like 90,000 lbs of rice in a month, and are a giant pain in my rear end to service, but since they're one of our first customers, bossman wants to keep servicing their account) and don't have cleaning machinery (because smaller ones don't have space), you'll reject if there's live OR dead insects. So now does the rice get thrown out? Nope. We send it to the cleaners. That's gonna cost you like $5K - $10K per load to clean, which pretty much demolishes your profit margins, but you don't want to throw away food that can be saved.

So yes. Bugs are an issue.

When I bring rice to my house, it goes directly into the freezer. Do not pass go, do not collect $200. Go sit in the freezer right now. It sits there for at least 3 days, if not a week. I don't care if it's organic or conventional. It's getting frozen good and solid. THEN I'll move it to the fridge for overnight so that it comes up to temp gradually. Then it gets transferred to an airtight container with an oxygen absorber if I'm going to keep it in that container longer than 3 months, or just by itself it it's less than 3 months. When I say airtight, I mean that it's a box that has a rubber gasket, so that nothing is entering or leaving that container, period. My parents sucked at food storage, so our rice consistently had bugs in when I was growing up. Making a pot of rice took forever, because you had to rinse so many times to get rid of the bugs. I'm freakishly paranoid about bugs, so I make sure to treat my grains with the utmost of disrespect. loving sit in that freezer and think about what you've done. >

�

This is really interesting reading, thank you.

# ? Jan 13, 2024 20:02

mystes: May 31, 2006

Yeah that's quite interesting

also mods please change the thread title to "ask me about rice: reefer madness"

# ? Jan 13, 2024 20:28

bloody ghost titty: Oct 23, 2008

Dino! Thanks a ton for this. I just learned about parboiled basmati yesterday in a Syrian grocer, so I was stoked to find this and all the details.

As far as minimizing the supply chain goes, where in the US would you suggest shopping for rice?

# ? Jan 13, 2024 23:11

PurpleXVI: Oct 30, 2011; Spewing insults, pissing off all your neighbors, betraying your allies, backing out of treaties and accords, and generally screwing over the global environment?
ALL PART OF MY BRILLIANT STRATEGY!

Very interesting reading. Personally I just leave a top-cut-off bag of Basmati rice in my pantry for two months while I work my way through it. Surprisingly I've yet to see any bugs in it, but that may be down to living in a reasonably cold country that's inhospitable to a lot of rice-eating insects, or maybe I just haven't noticed the extra protein.

# ? Jan 13, 2024 23:39

therattle: Jul 24, 2007; Soiled Meat

mawarannahr posted:

This is really interesting reading, thank you.

Heartily seconded.

mystes posted:

Yeah that's quite interesting

also mods please change the thread title to "ask me about rice: reefer madness"

Heartily seconded

# ? Jan 14, 2024 00:52

Chip McFuck: Jul 24, 2007; We droppin' like a comet and this Vulcan tried to Spock it/These Martians tried to do it, but knew they couldn't cop it

Thinking about Mexican rice recipes got me wondering why there are bags of rice a the grocery store that don't advertise what kind of rice they are? The only thing they really specify is the length of the grain on the packaging. Are they just blends of whatever didn't pass inspection (broken grains, not aged as long as they should have, etc.) or something?

Chip McFuck fucked around with this message at 01:17 on Jan 14, 2024

# ? Jan 14, 2024 01:14

Happiness Commando: Feb 1, 2002; $$ joy at gunpoint $$

dino. posted:

However, say you have conventional product that you're shipping out. That's "easier" but also hella dangerous. In India, they spray the absolute bejeebers out of the field with every pesticide, herbicide, and fungicide known to mankind. Basmati is a low yield crop, and sensitive to drat near everything. They're not taking any chances on losing out on product that they can sell next year (Basmati is aged, so this year's crops won't be sold at least until next year if you're a good Basmati producer). Then, when it gets into the plant, they fumigate the finished rice. What fumigant? In India, they use Methyl Bromide. Methyl Bromide is deadly toxic. As in, you inhale a little bit, and you have permanent lung damage. You inhale a little over a long time, and you're going to have brain damage. This poo poo is not a joke at all. When you're fumigating with it, you have to ensure that the entire works is AIR TIGHT. No leaks. Every time they put something under fume, they have to quadruple check that there's no air leaks at all. In a rice manufacturing or processing facility, they'll have special rooms dedicated to fumigation, so that they can mitigate any risks of inhalation by the people working there. Fumigation can also be done in the container itself (and it is!).

This is gross. Do you have a suggestion for a good organic basmati that I could get online or in a generic large city in the US?

# ? Jan 14, 2024 14:57

Buttchocks: Oct 21, 2020; No, I like my hat, thanks.

I am discovering that rice is both fascinating and really complicated.

# ? Jan 14, 2024 19:38

buglord: Jul 31, 2010; Cheating at a raffle? I sentence you to 1 year in jail! No! Two years! Three! Four! Five years! Ah! Ah! Ah! Ah!; Buglord

I bought jasmine rice for the first time because of this thread and im gonna use it in my new rice cooker (my other one became inoperable after i accidentally dented the basket)and im gonna pair this jasmine rice with trader joes broccoli beef.

im not even sure if the two are supposed to go together or what im supposed to adorn jasmine rice with other than salt but the deed is done, I have 10 pounds of it now since there was a sale

# ? Jan 15, 2024 04:50

Hyperlynx: Sep 13, 2015

Hello rice thread! This has been fascinating reading.

I've just tried cooking a batch using the rice cooker bowl markers for the water. Usually I do two scoops rice to three scoops water. It came out way firmer, which is nice, but almost chewy? Have I been badly overcooking my rice this whole time, and that's how it's meant to be, or did I do something wrong and undercook it? This is Jasmine rice.

# ? Jan 16, 2024 09:12

Helluva: Feb 7, 2011

Hyperlynx posted:

Hello rice thread! This has been fascinating reading.

I've just tried cooking a batch using the rice cooker bowl markers for the water. Usually I do two scoops rice to three scoops water. It came out way firmer, which is nice, but almost chewy? Have I been badly overcooking my rice this whole time, and that's how it's meant to be, or did I do something wrong and undercook it? This is Jasmine rice.

You should fry it with some butter first before cooking. Makes it incredibly tasty.

# ? Jan 16, 2024 09:16

dino.: Mar 28, 2010; Yip Yip, bitch.

david_a posted:

What about rice from California? Surely at least the distribution process must be somewhat easier.

Is it just considered to be a way worse product?

Cali rice is legit. You�ll be in good hands with it.

In the USA, most rice is fumigated with either ProFume (sulfuryl fluoride) or phosphine. Methyl bromide is available in some areas, but most of the USA has banned its use. Organic is CO2 fumed and then stored in temp control or freezers.

# ? Jan 16, 2024 09:54

for fucks sake: Jan 23, 2016

It sounds like what the organic rice makes up for in avoiding toxic chemicals, it loses in higher energy costs. I wonder if that's the same for other organic food.

# ? Jan 16, 2024 15:28

Visions of Valerie: Jun 18, 2023; Come this autumn, we'll be miles away...

for fucks sake posted:

It sounds like what the organic rice makes up for in avoiding toxic chemicals, it loses in higher energy costs. I wonder if that's the same for other organic food.

It really depends on the farmer. If they're going "letter of the law" on the organic certification, there's plenty of dangerous chemicals etc. they can still use. The world is made of chemicals, after all; the organic stamp just limits what synthetics can be used.

In terms of energy costs, it's a crapshoot: both organic and non-organic farmers are permitted to use gas engines as much as they want, and I suspect that outstrips anything else. In my experience (small-scale organic), there's more interest in reducing greenhouse gas emission in the organic space (e.g., through reduced- or no-tilling), but again, the certification doesn't require that.

Which is all to say: it depends a lot, and if you want to know, you'd have to know the farmers. Some otherwise-organic farms eschew certification since, for the reasons above, it doesn't go far enough in the sustainability direction for them, and instead substitute their own ethos.

# ? Jan 16, 2024 16:01

dino.: Mar 28, 2010; Yip Yip, bitch.

RE Name change:

I wrote the title the way I did, because I wanted it to look like something bland and boring (like rice), but actually be varied and interesting (like rice!!!) once you start to dig deeper. I find it way more hilarious to have a title like this one, with several people asking really insightful questions, and even cross-talking to each other about rice, but the title is "Ask me about rice." IDK, I guess I have an odd sense of humor?

VictualSquid posted:

We mostly bought 20kg bags of broken rice when I was a kid, because it is cheaper. I assume it gets sorted at one of those sifting stages. Does that happen in the producer country or during the repacking at the destination country?

So here's the thing about rice. I can get you whatever quality you require. For example, if you're going to be selling to a market that's picky (for example, Iranian or Indian), I can get you 2 years aged, with zero chalky grains, negligible brokens, and whatever color you're looking to get. It's just a question of the rejected grains. For example, if I bring in stuff for a customer (the guys who only order like 80k - 90k lbs a month, and whom I wish we'd stop working with, because it's a lot of work for 2 freaking containers), all their product is hand sorted on the line, so it means that there can be ZERO discolored or weird lookin' grains. For most industrial lines, as long as you've got the vast majority of the stuff in good shape, they're not going to bitch you out for a couple off looking grains. This means that in a 44,000 lb batch of rice that I've already imported from overseas, I'm going to have like 2,000 lbs of rejected grains, because they're the only ones who need it to be that level of insanity. Why are they rejected? The color isn't exactly what they wanted it to be (based on the spec sheet which we agreed on when the contract was signed). There's grains that aren't the agreed upon length. There's grains that are in other ways not exactly according to spec. So fine. Now we've got 2,000 lbs of perfectly edible rice, but that I can't necessarily do anything with. What do I do with it?

In the USA, it gets sold off to animal feed at pennies on the kg. In a rice producing country, however, it gets sorted into broken rice bags. The milling process will necessarily have some broken grains, but the finicky customers can't really accept it. But, because that rice producing country is making SO MUCH rice, they have enough broken grains to warrant having a special line to process them and pack them.

What are the bulk of broken grains used for? Flour! You don't need long perfect grains of rice for flour milling. In fact, the broken grains are superior, because it's less work for your machines to do to get them down to rice flour. Same goes for those companies that do rice cereals, or hot rice porridge type dishes. They want the broken grains, because that's halfway to where they'd like it to be in the first place.

The next step down is the Asian and African market. Asia and Africa orders a LOT of broken grains from rice producing countries. However, as much of Asia IS a rice producing area, a bunch of the product gets consumed domestically. Nowadays, the price difference between broken rice and whole rice isn't significant enough for most suppliers to waste their time importing it. Rice is a commodity business to begin with. Their margins only work when they move a lot of product. Bringing in a low margin product from overseas isn't worth it, when you consider the cost of importing the stuff.

bloody ghost titty posted:

Dino! Thanks a ton for this. I just learned about parboiled basmati yesterday in a Syrian grocer, so I was stoked to find this and all the details.

As far as minimizing the supply chain goes, where in the US would you suggest shopping for rice?

To be honest, unless you're near Arkansas, the Carolinas, or California, your rice is probably going to be imported from somewheres and be driven on the back of giant 53' trucks. The USA does produce rice, but when you compare its size to how many tonnes of rice it produces, it's not even in the top 10. Also, a LOT of our rice is exported, because we're not a huge rice eating economy. And, the rice eaters who DO live here prefer rice from their home countries anyways, so they tend to buy the imported stuff. The least mileage will be US grown rice. After that, pretty much anything you buy is going to be imported in giant 20' and 40' containers in massive quantities. It's an extremely dense product, so even rice that's been packed overseas is stuffed to the ABSOLUTE top of the containers, and the containers are all overweight, because they're trying to maximize the space in the shipping containers. If you're living near any major port in the USA, your imported rice spent a lot less time in an individual truck, because the local port cities all import rice directly from overseas, and consume it in the local areas themselves. Seattle, Oakland, Los Angeles, Houston, Miami, Jacksonville, Savannah, Norfolk, Newark? All of them just import direct from overseas (which is going on a shipping container), and dray it direct to the distribution warehouses local to them.

PurpleXVI posted:

Very interesting reading. Personally I just leave a top-cut-off bag of Basmati rice in my pantry for two months while I work my way through it. Surprisingly I've yet to see any bugs in it, but that may be down to living in a reasonably cold country that's inhospitable to a lot of rice-eating insects, or maybe I just haven't noticed the extra protein.

It's sort of like those people who are like "well, I can eat that soup I left out overnight. It hasn't hurt me yet." You'll be fine until you aren't fine. The thing about rice weevils and grain beetles is that they are EXTREMELY tenacious. You get an infestation of one, and basically they will never leave. They can live off of particles of grain or flour that's in the air. They can burrow into tiny little crevices all over your house, and come out at the weirdest places. I'm not here to tell you how to live your life, but unless you're at one of the earth poles (north or south), put your grain into air tight containers to avoid bug infestation, because they are an absolute beast to get rid of once they take hold in your house. Ask me about having to fumigate an entire rear end warehouse, because someone didn't fumigate a container properly when they loaded it overseas, and the entire place got infested.

Chip McFuck posted:

Thinking about Mexican rice recipes got me wondering why there are bags of rice a the grocery store that don't advertise what kind of rice they are? The only thing they really specify is the length of the grain on the packaging. Are they just blends of whatever didn't pass inspection (broken grains, not aged as long as they should have, etc.) or something?

They're just "long grain white" rice. It's the "default" rice, so to speak, that you'll find in any typical American grocery store, because it's the sort of rice that we grow here. It's its own thing. It's not at all leftovers.

Happiness Commando posted:

This is gross. Do you have a suggestion for a good organic basmati that I could get online or in a generic large city in the US?

Fumigant does not wind up in your food. It's by definition a gas at room temperature. All these fumigants have to be stored in high pressure, because at well below freezing temperature, they're a gas already. By the time the airing out period has completed, you will find no evidence or traces of the fumigant on the product anymore, because it has evaporated off. In other words, I could fume something with any of those fumigants, and you would literally have no way of knowing that I did, even if you were to submit it to a lab for testing. Even if it's a very sensitive test, there could be an entire boat of containers that gets fumed with methyl bromide, and nobody would know about it unless it was reported as such.

That said, if you're worried about the pesticides thrown on the ground, also bear in mind that organic farming DOES allow the use of pesticides, as long as the compound occurs in nature. At that point, it could be some hippie juicing a neem tree to get the stuff to spray on his flowers, or it could be Dow chemicals synthesizing the stuff in a lab. Either way, as long as the compound is naturally occurring, it's allowed to be used as a pesticide.

If you're still insisting on getting organic, get any of the mainstream store own brand stuff from a mainstream American/Canadian store. The onboarding process and QA requirements for those companies is extreme and extensive. It'll cost more than what you'd pay at an Indian or Middle Eastern market, but from my experience, the QA process is not a freaking joke at those companies, and they tend to be really really strict with what they allow. All that being said, if you wash your rice thoroughly, the amount of any pesticide residues goes down to undetectable, and in the final cooked rice, completely gone. Rinse your rice. The only reason we can't really do that is that rice is a low moisture food, and stays with an indefinite shelf life, because there's not enough water to let bacterial action take hold.

Buttchocks posted:

I am discovering that rice is both fascinating and really complicated.

Like any food that's produced on a massive scale, there's a million different things to take into consideration. My job used to be basically everything except sales. Our company got too big for me to handle that all myself, so now we have 2 more people in logistics, 2 people in accounting, a person in QA, a person handling PO's, and me who mainly oversees the logistics. And we're just one company. Hundreds of people come in contact with us to get the rice from the boats to your table, and they all have their own little worlds that they live in, with their own dramas and concerns. I know all the people in the lead-up to the distribution centre, but I see nothing past that.

buglord posted:

I bought jasmine rice for the first time because of this thread and im gonna use it in my new rice cooker (my other one became inoperable after i accidentally dented the basket)and im gonna pair this jasmine rice with trader joes broccoli beef.

im not even sure if the two are supposed to go together or what im supposed to adorn jasmine rice with other than salt but the deed is done, I have 10 pounds of it now since there was a sale

It should go together just fine. Jasmine rice is a versatile every day eating rice.

Hyperlynx posted:

Hello rice thread! This has been fascinating reading.

I've just tried cooking a batch using the rice cooker bowl markers for the water. Usually I do two scoops rice to three scoops water. It came out way firmer, which is nice, but almost chewy? Have I been badly overcooking my rice this whole time, and that's how it's meant to be, or did I do something wrong and undercook it? This is Jasmine rice.

So the rice cooker will cook the rice to a bit more firm consistency than if you were to eyeball the water. My brother (for example) does not like firm, separate rice. He likes softer more mushy rice. So, when he or his wife make rice, they add WAY WAY more water to the rice cooker than is recommended, so that they can get their desired consistency. The lines on the pot are there are guidelines. If you find it unpleasantly firm for your liking, start scooching up the amount of water you add, and see where it takes you!

for fucks sake posted:

It sounds like what the organic rice makes up for in avoiding toxic chemicals, it loses in higher energy costs. I wonder if that's the same for other organic food.

See above RE: scary chemicals.

It's the same for any organic grain. You can't let it get bugs in it, so you kind of have to keep it chilled. Exception to the rule is if it's already been packed in airtight or CO2/nitrogen flushed packaging. If you ever seen those brick shaped bags of Jasmine rice from Thailand, that have zero air left in there because they're vacuum sealed, or those bags of rice in the mainstream markets that are goofy and you can't press the air out of them? Those are what I'm talking about. The vacuum sealed ones suck out all the oxygen, so that bugs can't live. The CO2 or nitrogen flushes bags have all the oxygen replaced with either CO2 or nitrogen. Neither gas will let bugs live. The only issue is when you get rice that's in clear plastic bags in an Indian market. The shop guys don't like the bags to take up too much space on the shelf, so they poke tiny holes into the bags, squish out the air, and then stack them one on top of the other. Lovely.

Visions of Valerie posted:

It really depends on the farmer. If they're going "letter of the law" on the organic certification, there's plenty of dangerous chemicals etc. they can still use. The world is made of chemicals, after all; the organic stamp just limits what synthetics can be used.

In terms of energy costs, it's a crapshoot: both organic and non-organic farmers are permitted to use gas engines as much as they want, and I suspect that outstrips anything else. In my experience (small-scale organic), there's more interest in reducing greenhouse gas emission in the organic space (e.g., through reduced- or no-tilling), but again, the certification doesn't require that.

Which is all to say: it depends a lot, and if you want to know, you'd have to know the farmers. Some otherwise-organic farms eschew certification since, for the reasons above, it doesn't go far enough in the sustainability direction for them, and instead substitute their own ethos.

So this is the case with the Thai farmers that we import from. They don't use pesticides, because (1) they can't afford them, and (2) they're also growing their own family's food on the same fields that they grow the rice. They don't trust them. When the rice goes for pesticide testing residues, it always comes up as zero, because they don't use it. That said, they still do fumigate the conventional rice with Phosphine, and the organic with CO2 (or use reefers as mentioned before). However, the conventional rice farmers aren't seeking organic certification, because the land has to be organic for X amount of years, and it's not a cheap process to get the organic certification. So they just keep producing the rice that they do, sending it over, and nobody's the wiser. Then you have other organic farmers in other places that I won't name (because I can't) where they'll use every allowable chemical, as long as it's on the allowed list.

How can you know which is which? You can't. Just wash the drat rice, and move on. This stuff goes way too hard in way too many directions, and there's way too many people whose interests are being protected in the name of following the standards set out by the certifying bodies. It's exhausting to even get started. Buy local as much as you can for your organic stuff. Visit their farm if you want. Talk to the farmer if you can. Or, just wash your food, and move on.

# ? Jan 16, 2024 21:00

buglord: Jul 31, 2010; Cheating at a raffle? I sentence you to 1 year in jail! No! Two years! Three! Four! Five years! Ah! Ah! Ah! Ah!; Buglord

Buddy I don�t know what compels you to write thousands of words about rice on your off time but I�m so glad you do.

e: this is sincere, btw

# ? Jan 16, 2024 21:04

therattle: Jul 24, 2007; Soiled Meat

Just seconding dino.'s point about bugs. We have had two pantry moth infestations and they are a loving pain to deal with. (Thankfully the second wasn't as bad because most of our food was in sealed containers due to the lesson learned from the first one).

# ? Jan 16, 2024 21:43

Hyperlynx: Sep 13, 2015

Thank you for the rice advice!

# ? Jan 16, 2024 21:53

PurpleXVI: Oct 30, 2011; Spewing insults, pissing off all your neighbors, betraying your allies, backing out of treaties and accords, and generally screwing over the global environment?
ALL PART OF MY BRILLIANT STRATEGY!

dino. posted:

It's sort of like those people who are like "well, I can eat that soup I left out overnight. It hasn't hurt me yet." You'll be fine until you aren't fine. The thing about rice weevils and grain beetles is that they are EXTREMELY tenacious. You get an infestation of one, and basically they will never leave. They can live off of particles of grain or flour that's in the air. They can burrow into tiny little crevices all over your house, and come out at the weirdest places. I'm not here to tell you how to live your life, but unless you're at one of the earth poles (north or south), put your grain into air tight containers to avoid bug infestation, because they are an absolute beast to get rid of once they take hold in your house. Ask me about having to fumigate an entire rear end warehouse, because someone didn't fumigate a container properly when they loaded it overseas, and the entire place got infested.

...I mean, okay, theoretically, let's say a rice weevil gets into my rice, and I boil it along with the rice, and eat it without noticing. Is that just going to be a real gross thing if I DO notice or are they potentially dangerous in some way to eat?

Because I'd say the big difference is that soup left out overnight can absolutely gently caress you up and maybe loving kill you if you get real unlucky.

Also I do live in Denmark. We get some proper winters from time to time.

# ? Jan 16, 2024 21:54

DekeThornton: Sep 2, 2011; Be friends!

This thread is really interesting. I really like the insight into the rice business. It has also reaffirmed that the real rice elitists aren't east asians, but Iranians.

Regarding organic food in general I mostly see it as based on superstition with arbitrary lines drawn between what is natural or what is "man made". I mean in organic production you can drown your crops in toxic copper sulphate but much safer modern pesticides are shunned.

# ? Jan 16, 2024 21:56

uber_stoat: Jan 21, 2001; Pillbug

PurpleXVI posted:

...I mean, okay, theoretically, let's say a rice weevil gets into my rice, and I boil it along with the rice, and eat it without noticing. Is that just going to be a real gross thing if I DO notice or are they potentially dangerous in some way to eat?

Because I'd say the big difference is that soup left out overnight can absolutely gently caress you up and maybe loving kill you if you get real unlucky.

Also I do live in Denmark. We get some proper winters from time to time.

overnight rice can get you too.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ujTYLV2Qo4

but no, weevils aren't poisonous. though if you have guests over they may not be happy to find bugs in their rice.

anyway you'd not just be eating the weevils. you're also eating their poo poo. and any other debris they may leave lying around, like weevil sized candy bar wrappers.

# ? Jan 16, 2024 22:01

notwithoutmyanus: Mar 17, 2009

therattle posted:

Just seconding dino.'s point about bugs. We have had two pantry moth infestations and they are a loving pain to deal with. (Thankfully the second wasn't as bad because most of our food was in sealed containers due to the lesson learned from the first one).

we learned our lesson when we had mice in the previous house we lived in; by the time we came to the current house we changed our food storage. So now it's basically everything loose is contained in jars and/or in a freezer. There's enough risk of enough different things messing with your food in enough ways.

# ? Jan 16, 2024 22:20

ntan1: Apr 29, 2009; sempai noticed me

What is your favorite species of Japanese rice that isn't koshihikari?

# ? Jan 16, 2024 22:51

therattle: Jul 24, 2007; Soiled Meat

PurpleXVI posted:

...I mean, okay, theoretically, let's say a rice weevil gets into my rice, and I boil it along with the rice, and eat it without noticing. Is that just going to be a real gross thing if I DO notice or are they potentially dangerous in some way to eat?

Because I'd say the big difference is that soup left out overnight can absolutely gently caress you up and maybe loving kill you if you get real unlucky.

Also I do live in Denmark. We get some proper winters from time to time.

It�s partly that it�s not great to eat moth poo poo, dead moths, webs, etc, and partly that they lay eggs loving everywhere and get into everything, and you have to throw out food and do a huge cleaning operation which is massively inconvenient.

# ? Jan 16, 2024 23:09

Inceltown: Aug 6, 2019

Thanks for all the words on this Dino. Only checked the thread out because you always make good posts and figured "well I eat rice, maybe I'll learn something interesting". Sure glad I did because this is fascinating.

dino. posted:

So this is the case with the Thai farmers that we import from. They don't use pesticides, because (1) they can't afford them, and (2) they're also growing their own family's food on the same fields that they grow the rice. They don't trust them.

Not going to fault a South East Asian farmer for not trusting Monsanto near their land.

# ? Jan 16, 2024 23:15

Doom Rooster: Sep 3, 2008; Pillbug

dino., what is the best rice, and why is it Sona Masoori?

# ? Jan 16, 2024 23:32

PurpleXVI: Oct 30, 2011; Spewing insults, pissing off all your neighbors, betraying your allies, backing out of treaties and accords, and generally screwing over the global environment?
ALL PART OF MY BRILLIANT STRATEGY!

therattle posted:

It�s partly that it�s not great to eat moth poo poo, dead moths, webs, etc, and partly that they lay eggs loving everywhere and get into everything, and you have to throw out food and do a huge cleaning operation which is massively inconvenient.

If I eat their eggs I will be preventing them from reproducing. Problem solved.

# ? Jan 16, 2024 23:39

therattle: Jul 24, 2007; Soiled Meat

PurpleXVI posted:

If I eat their eggs I will be preventing them from reproducing. Problem solved.

As I say to my son, " I am not going to make you do this; I strongly suggest that you do, but you're old enough to make your own decisions and deal with the consequences".

# ? Jan 16, 2024 23:50

Visions of Valerie: Jun 18, 2023; Come this autumn, we'll be miles away...

DekeThornton posted:

Regarding organic food in general I mostly see it as based on superstition with arbitrary lines drawn between what is natural or what is "man made". I mean in organic production you can drown your crops in toxic copper sulphate but much safer modern pesticides are shunned.

That's a bit reductive, and ignores what the goals were beyond what became codified into USDA rules. That e.g. copper sulphate (note: a synthetic) is permitted is one of the reasons I and others wish the standards were stricter. Note also in both production methods that just because something safer/less damaging can be used doesn't mean that it is used. There remains no way to know for sure without knowing the farmer.

e: There's a labor issue here too - as a worker, what poo poo I inhale/get on my skin matters to me, even if it doesn't appear in the final product.

Visions of Valerie fucked around with this message at 00:28 on Jan 17, 2024

# ? Jan 17, 2024 00:13

Hyperlynx: Sep 13, 2015

Hm. I've just been keeping my rice in the sack. Maybe time to upgrade to a sack-sized hard plastic container...

How likely are bugs in an apartment nine storeys up, though?

# ? Jan 17, 2024 00:19

Earwicker: Jan 6, 2003

Hyperlynx posted:

Hm. I've just been keeping my rice in the sack. Maybe time to upgrade to a sack-sized hard plastic container...

How likely are bugs in an apartment nine storeys up, though?

that depends on where you live. i lived in several large buildings in nyc that had all kinds of bugs living in the walls. mice too, they can chew through a sack. i've never had them go after rice tho.

# ? Jan 17, 2024 00:30

uber_stoat: Jan 21, 2001; Pillbug

Hyperlynx posted:

Hm. I've just been keeping my rice in the sack. Maybe time to upgrade to a sack-sized hard plastic container...

How likely are bugs in an apartment nine storeys up, though?

bugs are good at hitching rides to places they want to be. also if you're unlucky they might already be in your food when you buy it. put it in the freezer and then put it into the plastic tub.

# ? Jan 17, 2024 00:31

therattle: Jul 24, 2007; Soiled Meat

uber_stoat posted:

bugs are good at hitching rides to places they want to be. also if you're unlucky they might already be in your food when you buy it. put it in the freezer and then put it into the plastic tub.

Yeah. Sometimes (often) they are in the food and a sealed container is as much to keep them in and preventing them from spreading as it is to keep them out.

# ? Jan 17, 2024 01:05

MadFriarAvelyn: Sep 25, 2007

All of this talk about pests in rice got me to panic and throw the bag of golden sella I bought in some glass jars and chuck em in the freezer.

Can you wash and cook rice straight from frozen or would that negatively affect the texture? Or do I just take the jars back out of the freezer after a week or so and all is well?

MadFriarAvelyn fucked around with this message at 01:25 on Jan 17, 2024

# ? Jan 17, 2024 01:21

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# ? Jun 3, 2024 10:37

uber_stoat: Jan 21, 2001; Pillbug

MadFriarAvelyn posted:

All of this talk about pests in rice got me to panic and throw the bag of golden sella I bought in some glass jars and chuck em in the freezer.

Can you wash and cook rice straight from frozen or would that negatively affect the texture? Or do I just take the jars back out of the freezer after a week or so and all is well?

my understanding is you don't have to leave it in the freezer. you cool it down for a while to kill any live ones and any eggs that might be inside, then you put it into a container outside the freezer. then it will be happy sitting on your pantry shelf with only the ghosts of weevils to haunt you.

# ? Jan 17, 2024 01:39

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