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M_Gargantua posted:I don't think even old diesels appreciate thermite and/or anti-tank mines. Probably not even sitting in a pile of burning diesel for a while, I can't imagine that'd be great for the metal. Sure, diesel is hard to light, but I'm sure it'll burn fine if you get it started.
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Jan 15, 2024 20:07
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It's definitely more effective to put a couple pounds of thermite inside the guts of a train, but you can only do that so many times before it's escalating to a point that sneaking into a depot with the tools is extremely dangerous. And there's no real guarantee that torching an engine would actually prevent cargo from moving that day if the rail system is properly working in the first place* Maybe a looted tank depot would be an appropriate metaphor? Low stakes damage to things that might be $75 in the pocket could be all it takes to cripple millions of dollars of hardware because they're cheap pieces, but not something anyone ever expected to need to replace in volume *a hell of an assumption to make for Russia in 2024, but it is worth noting that if the network isn't taxed beyond belief, the railyard itself should be able to just switch the burnt engine with one taken from the same yard within in a couple of hours to keep things moving
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Jan 15, 2024 21:16
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The Door Frame posted:It's definitely more effective to put a couple pounds of thermite inside the guts of a train, but you can only do that so many times before it's escalating to a point that sneaking into a depot with the tools is extremely dangerous. And there's no real guarantee that torching an engine would actually prevent cargo from moving that day if the rail system is properly working in the first place* The point isn't that they have to stop goods moving right now. The point is to further tax the logistical tail by reducing the number of engines available. Just because someone can't blow up all the train engines in a day doesn't mean it's worthless. Hell just wear and tear could take care of the rest. So even if someone just burns the electronics, which are fairly easy to damage compared to an engine block, those parts still have to be replaced or the train don't go.
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Jan 15, 2024 21:41
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CainFortea posted:The point isn't that they have to stop goods moving right now. The point is to further tax the logistical tail by reducing the number of engines available. Just because someone can't blow up all the train engines in a day doesn't mean it's worthless. Torch it with what? Someone has to physically interact with the train while there are people around the train who really don't want the train damaged, some of which will have guns The Belarusians don't want to be shot either, which is why their partisans are going after rail signals and safe targets that you can destroy with tools available from Post-Soviet Home Depot that won't raise suspicion. They have been doing this for nearly 2 years with a handful of people ever getting caught
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Jan 15, 2024 21:57
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The Door Frame posted:Torch it with what? Someone has to physically interact with the train while there are people around the train who really don't want the train damaged, some of which will have guns Yes, that is how sabotage works. Someone brought up the idea of targeting the engines directly as opposed to the rail infrastructure. Saying "it's harder" doesn't really mean anything. I don't think anyone was thinking that it was somehow easier.
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Jan 15, 2024 22:02
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Isn't rail infrastructure pretty trivial to fix providing it isn't something like a bridge/tunnel or depot attacked?The rails themselves are pretty simple to replace and unless you did something that left munitions spread around you'd just have to fill up the hole left over by the explosion.
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Jan 15, 2024 22:11
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CainFortea posted:Yes, that is how sabotage works. And I am presenting several possible explainations as to why train engines are a poor target for attrition style sabotage, and am validated by the fact that such targeted attrition is not being done by the people on the ground who are sabotaging train systems in this war
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Jan 15, 2024 22:13
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ChaseSP posted:Isn't rail infrastructure pretty trivial to fix providing it isn't something like a bridge/tunnel or depot attacked?The rails themselves are pretty simple to replace and unless you did something that left munitions spread around you'd just have to fill up the hole left over by the explosion. Yup. Attacking rails/switching hardware is going to cause a delay of hours/days, which could in limited situations be useful in a specific tactical scenario, like if you're trying to destroy a specific shipment or delay a rail troop movement to reinforce a line under attack. To achieve a strategic effect, you'll need to take out critical choke points that cannot easily be repaired (Kerch) or attrit the number of prime movers available.
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Jan 15, 2024 22:13
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Partisan activity is mostly just what you can get away with while maintaining minimal surface area to be compromised. Sure there are those stories of juicy targets of opportunity or planned raids, but a lot of stuff is just too risky to be common.
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Jan 15, 2024 22:20
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If it were too risky for partisans, why not send in Ukrainian operatives to attrit the trains that everyone knows are the backbone of the war economy? Because trains are really hard to actually destroy, and people aren't going to give you too many chances to do it in person without dying
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Jan 15, 2024 22:34
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The Door Frame posted:And I am presenting several possible explainations as to why train engines are a poor target for attrition style sabotage, and am validated by the fact that such targeted attrition is not being done by the people on the ground who are sabotaging train systems in this war Well at least you're validated.
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Jan 15, 2024 23:40
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ChaseSP posted:Isn't rail infrastructure pretty trivial to fix providing it isn't something like a bridge/tunnel or depot attacked?The rails themselves are pretty simple to replace and unless you did something that left munitions spread around you'd just have to fill up the hole left over by the explosion. Correct. Modern railways also tend to involve a lot of integrity control, so if you e.g. destroy a rail, the signalling circuit will stop working and the traffic controllers will know something is amiss. The track superstructure in general is pretty easy to repair, which is why attacks on railway operations usually target energy supply or signalling systems. Point machines are a pain in the rear end to repair too. That's not to say you couldn't render a locomotive inoperable with an anti-tank mine. Probably you just need to switch out the pressure fuse for a magnetic one. Hell, string some together while you're at it. They're probably even pretty easy to conceal under snow this time of the year. The problem is that you'll need access to the line to accomplish any of this and the Russians are aware of the strategic importance of the railways and will likely be happy to stop and check any unmarked van headed for the tracks.
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Jan 16, 2024 00:06
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Jasper Tin Neck posted:Correct. Modern railways also tend to involve a lot of integrity control, so if you e.g. destroy a rail, the signalling circuit will stop working and the traffic controllers will know something is amiss. It's a really, really big country, they can't guard it all.
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Jan 16, 2024 00:10
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spankmeister posted:It's a really, really big country, they can't guard it all. Pretty much this. I recall articles indicating Ukranian saboteurs were more or less walking into Russia past border patrol.
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Jan 16, 2024 00:15
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spankmeister posted:It's a really, really big country, they can't guard it all. hell, i bet even the switching yards are poorly secured.
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Jan 16, 2024 01:14
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A significant number of the former guards are likely frozen chunks of meat in the middle of no-man's-land right now.
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Jan 16, 2024 02:34
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Landmines work for cheap.
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Jan 16, 2024 03:34
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The Lone Badger posted:Landmines work for cheap. Landmines in your own territory, in your own switching yards? I hope they actually do that.
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Jan 16, 2024 03:35
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Slashrat posted:It's probably safe enough if Ukraine can quickly and quietly move the system to the front, shoot immediately and then pack up and scurry off. If the Russian planes got careless and started flying the same routes over long periods of time, that would be relatively easy for Ukraine to plan. The Russians are claiming that the Ukrainians didn't do it and that the aircraft responsible for coordinating Russian air defenses was shot down by Russian air defenses. I'm not sure what to make of a military that so enthusiastically highlights its own incompetence. https://www.understandingwar.org/backgrounder/russian-offensive-campaign-assessment-january-15-2024 quote:The Russian information space largely denied that Ukrainian forces struck the A-50 aircraft and instead strangely claimed that the aircraft was destroyed by friendly fire from Russian air defenses.[10] The A-50 is used to coordinate Russian air and possibly air defense activity, and the claim that Russian air defenses shot down the A-50 would amount to a calamitous failure on the part of Russian forces, if true. A Russian source that focuses on Russian aviation blamed Russian commanders who lack the proper background required for their positions.[11] The current commander of the Russian Aerospace Forces, Colonel General Viktor Afzalov, has an extensive background in Russian air defense operations.[12] Whether his lack of experience as a pilot poses any problems for Russian air operations, which is questionable, his experience as an air defender should have been appropriate to ensure that Russian forces do not shoot down their own airborne control aircraft. A Russian insider source claiming to be an employee of an unspecified Russian security structure claimed that unspecified Russian actors created a “duck” (a Russian term for a false claim) about how Russian forces shot down the A-50 to reassure Russian pilots that missions over the Black Sea and Sea of Azov are still safe and that human error was the cause of the incident.[13] It is unclear why Russian pilots should be more comfortable with the idea that their ground-based air defenders are so incompetent. I love the last sentence.
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Jan 16, 2024 11:10
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psydude posted:The Russians are claiming that the Ukrainians didn't do it and that the aircraft responsible for coordinating Russian air defenses was shot down by Russian air defenses. https://twitter.com/wartranslated/status/1747196832722149439 Another source for a claim about this. Last time we had a situation like this, which was... I think mid last year, when there was a story about some helicopters full of Russian officers getting blasted across the border east of Kyiv by friendly air defense, it eventually came out that the Ukrainians had just been that good. Also worth considering that the Ukrainians claimed this kill ahead of time. It's plausible that it's less embarrassing for the Russians that they killed their own guys, than if Ukrainians did it. quote:Ukraine’s Southern Operational Command stated that Russia had only three A-50s in service out of a total of six prior to this strike A relevant part of the post, too. Wikipedia supports this by saying there are only a single-digit number still in service and five of those confirmed with the Indian Air Force. That's a nasty and hard-to-compensate loss. PurpleXVI fucked around with this message at 11:15 on Jan 16, 2024 |
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Jan 16, 2024 11:12
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psydude posted:The Russians are claiming that the Ukrainians didn't do it and that the aircraft responsible for coordinating Russian air defenses was shot down by Russian air defenses. Its possibly some "We're so amazing the only ones that can hurt us is US!"
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Jan 16, 2024 12:39
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Reminder that a central factor in the war is that Russians considered Ukrainians to be racially inferior peasants incapable of doing anything themselves.
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Jan 16, 2024 13:40
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spankmeister posted:It's a really, really big country, they can't guard it all. Still, if sabotaging Russian railways was really easy and effective, Ukrainian security services would likely already be doing it at scale. If they're not doing it, the most likely explanation is that some part of the risk–reward calculus just doesn't add up. The fact that Ukrainian security services were pretty badly compromised by Russian moles in the lead up to the war could be a major one. You don't want to risk an entire team if you can't be sure every single one in the loop is clean.
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Jan 16, 2024 13:56
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How well defended are rail bridges in Russia I wonder 
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Jan 16, 2024 13:58
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Dick Bastardly posted:How well defended are rail bridges in Russia I wonder Apparently not well enough. A while back there was a major hit on one of the big ones leading east-west deep in Russia. The Ukrainians first blew up a train in a tunnel, forcing the next supply train to go the long way around over the bridge, and then blew up the second train on the bridge. https://kyivindependent.com/media-sbu-blows-up-another-train-in-russias-far-east/
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Jan 16, 2024 15:51
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ITT goons realize trains are an important strategic resource, something well understood by militaries going back to the invention of trains, and wonder why if they are so important no one kills them and concludes that it's just lack of understanding of their importance and then proceeds to effort post naive methods of disrupting russian rail freight. Ukraine did prioritize rail hubs and lines and hit the ones they could until russia disbursed their logistics and moved back their major distro points out of range and amped up their defensive umbrella.
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Jan 16, 2024 15:57
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Sir this is a wendys.
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Jan 16, 2024 17:54
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I wonder if you can just loop a big wire out and around a track length to keep sending the pulse on the track then cut the track in such a way so it disrails nice and messy in some godforsaken corner of the empire.
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Jan 16, 2024 18:07
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If we didn’t have train dorks we would have like 5 train emojis MAX. Instead, we enjoy 16 train emojis and counting. Thanks dorks! E: this training film covers advanced train warfare; https://youtu.be/D_UdtS-8QS0?si=IIrV5ZsXNkRFsGOr
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Jan 16, 2024 18:15
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Borscht posted:E: this training film covers advanced train warfare; https://youtu.be/D_UdtS-8QS0?si=IIrV5ZsXNkRFsGOr Does that make it a train-ing film? 
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Jan 16, 2024 18:41
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Quackles posted:Does that make it a train-ing film? Boo
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Jan 16, 2024 18:54
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I'm tired of this derail
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Jan 16, 2024 19:28
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I agree, we should get back on track. Before this derail gets even more traction.
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Jan 16, 2024 19:33
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all you have to do is paint a fake tunnel on the mountain and lead the tracks to it the train will get hit by another train
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Jan 16, 2024 19:33
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Alan Smithee posted:all you have to do is paint a fake tunnel on the mountain and lead the tracks to it the train will get hit by another train There you go
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Jan 16, 2024 19:36
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Murgos posted:ITT goons realize trains are an important strategic resource, something well understood by militaries going back to the invention of trains, and wonder why if they are so important no one kills them and concludes that it's just lack of understanding of their importance and then proceeds to effort post naive methods of disrupting russian rail freight. tyfys, I temporarily resisted the urge to reaffirm my status as “thread grump” yesterday, but someone had to do it.
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Jan 16, 2024 21:13
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https://twitter.com/raging545/status/1747317200279499100quote:VIDEO from Solnechnogorsk app 60km NW of Moscow, showing heating pipes leaking and spraying hot water. Most of this city is claimed to be without heating. #Ukraine #Ukrainewar #UkraineRussiawar #Russia Is it actually going to get people angry when Putin quite literally can't keep the heating on? They've put up with so much poo poo that I find it hard to imagine.
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Jan 16, 2024 21:42
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I dunno, with staple foods like eggs also getting ruinously expensive the loss of heating in the depths of winter probably isn't going to be well received. Whether or not this translates to actual unrest... who knows. Putin has such control over the media and such an extensive state security apparatus that it's difficult for any resistance movement to coalesce and start acting.
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Jan 16, 2024 22:12
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So far Putin has used this utilities providers crises to his advantage by putting their owners/administration behind bars in public trials and suggesting the utilities should be (re)nationalized. Traditional good tzar story making.
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Jan 16, 2024 22:18
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Fearless posted:I dunno, with staple foods like eggs also getting ruinously expensive the loss of heating in the depths of winter probably isn't going to be well received. Whether or not this translates to actual unrest... who knows. Putin has such control over the media and such an extensive state security apparatus that it's difficult for any resistance movement to coalesce and start acting. Let's not forget the planes that are about to start falling out of the sky. https://wapo.st/47BHLGT
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Jan 16, 2024 22:31
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