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Gumball Gumption posted:What is an ISIS-style atrocity? Is this a technical term? What makes it different from normal atrocity? It's much smaller in scale than an Isreali-style one, evidently. Weird to minimize the bad of ISIS by comparing them to a resistance movement in a giant concentration camp that way.
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Jan 15, 2024 00:48
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It's very important to distinguish scary brown people atrocities from the vanilla atrocities committed en masse by the US and Israel on a regular basis
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Jan 15, 2024 00:48
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The seemingly perpetual relitigation of 7/10 strikes me as similar to if all discussion of Kristallnacht focused almost entirely around the assassination of Ernst von Rath - an illegal and (debatably) immoral act. Such a rhetorical focus is blind to the context on either side of the event or what it was used to justify and is, frankly, a waste of time. Concentrate on the suffering of the people who are, right now, dying by the hundreds and thousands. Who for decades have been living in a state of oppression and inequality, not just in weath or status in Israel, but in their basic human rights. When that state of utter depredation has been solved, when those people can live in the very least in a state of peace, when even one of them has lived in a world where they remember a time they were truly safe, it will be time to address the lesser crimes of Hamas.
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Jan 15, 2024 00:50
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PE, in order to respond to this post, I'm really going to have to break it up into two separate pieces.Pentecoastal Elites posted:I think this illustrates the big disconnect between people frustrated that this thread is often fixated on 10/7 and not the ongoing genocide, and people frustrated that 10/7 is getting dismissed, ignored, or explained away. First things first, "Israel" is not a monolith. The information we have about Oct 7th is coming not just from the Israeli government, but also from numerous private Israeli organizations and individuals. There's plenty of eyewitness testimonials from people who saw these attacks with their own eyes. There are people who were injured in these attacks and have a pretty good idea of who shot them. One of Haa'retz's sources of information in making an early list of casualties was just having a staff member who'd lived in one of the kibbutzes attacked, so every time he heard from one of his neighbors that one of their friends was dead, he'd add them to the list. If the IDF was just mowing down civilians in the kibbutzes by the hundreds, it would have come out by now, and no amount of military censorship would have been able to stop it. Now, you've touched on a very important principle: we are never going to know exactly what happened five thousand miles away with complete reliability and accuracy. We're not seeing this poo poo firsthand, we're hearing it from other people who are always going to introduce inaccuracies, whether intentional or unintentional (even direct eyewitnesses often do not perfectly understand and remember what they saw). That goes for both Israel and Gaza. We're hearing everything from local sources who are often attempting to reconstruct what happened from scattered evidence, and who always have their own political positions that influence things. This isn't unique to Israel or to Israelis. How do you handle it? First off, one source being unreliable doesn't mean that all sources contradicting it are automatically reliable, nor does it mean that any narrative contradicting that source's narrative is automatically true. Other than that, I'd say to focus less on specific details and more on the big-picture that's harder to fake. For example, the specific details of a specific killing are often open to considerable interpretation or futzing, but a large pile of dead bodies generally can't be faked or covered up. Instead of quibbling over how much torture may have been done in the killing of several hundred dead civilians, consider the fact that several hundred dead civilians is bad enough on its own that you don't really need to bust out a magnifying glass and scrutinize them individually. Instead of quibbling over how many people may have been killed by one hospital bombing and who may have launched the explosive, consider the fact that Israel admits to having dropped tens of thousands of bombs on Gaza, including several attacks on other hospitals. I don't know who dropped the bomb on the Al-Ahli Arab Hospital, but what I do know is that there were so many attacks on healthcare facilities by both sides that there's a dedicated Wikipedia article for them, so I'm fine ignoring the one attack we don't know the perpetrator of and instead focusing on the numerous other attacks on healthcare facilities, almost all of which have not been denied by those accused of carrying them out. We don't even have to look at all the other attacks, pull out a calculator, and try to predict the perpetrator and pretend it's anything more than a wild guess. Sometimes "we don't know and do not have the information to know" means that we should in fact settle on "we don't know" instead of trying to fill in the gaps in our knowledge with guesswork. Pentecoastal Elites posted:If we take it as understood that we can't really trust anything coming from israel except the broad strokes (Hamas breached the walls, attacked several sites, took or tried to take hostages, and engaged in various firefights, many people died), the narratives coming out of israel don't really align with Hamas as they've acted historically, but the israeli messaging does align with what we understand israel's interests to be. Even if you hate them, Hamas is a fairly disciplined organization, and their supposed savagery on 10/7 doesn't comport to how Hamas has acted in the past and how they're acting now (eg. in their treatment of their hostages). I'm utterly baffled by what you're even getting at here, because I don't believe Hamas has ever shown any particular aversion to torturing or killing civilians. While I'm not aware of any instances of Hamas engaging in gratuitous torture against Israeli civilians, that's presumably due to lack of opportunity rather than lack of will. After all, they've shown no moral compunctions about torturing and murdering civilians in Gaza. That doesn't just come from Israel or Fatah, either - human rights NGOs which routinely criticize Israel, such as Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International, have complained for decades that both Hamas and the PA are prone to carrying out arbitrary arrests, brutal torture, and extrajudicial executions against Palestinian civilians under their control. Being disciplined doesn't mean not brutally killing people. It just rarely comes up because there aren't really any political positions that benefit from criticizing human rights abuses by both Hamas and the PA against the Palestinian people, and it generally affects fewer people than the inter-factional conflicts between Israel, the PA, and Hamas. Also, the stakes are not a genocide of the captive population. That genocide started decades ago, and will continue even if Israel stops dropping bombs. A ceasefire will just let Western liberals pat themselves on the back and feel good about themselves as the slaughter rate drops to a level that's easier to comfortably ignore.
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Jan 15, 2024 01:59
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Main Paineframe posted:The math certainly is easy to do when you're making up whatever numbers you feel like. Basically what I'm learning reading this thread poo poo gets made up, and clawing the discussion back from it gets made reliably tedious, especially if only then do people start nitpicking about whether the things that were made up matter If anything rerails poo poo here it should strongly caution against repeating the tendency later. I want to learn poo poo about what's actually happening in Gaza so I'm better prepared when it comes up with people in real life who are hideously uninformed about the cruelty of the reprisal attacks, and when it becomes a crapshoot over whether a fact or figure is testably accurate or gut-feelingsed hyperbole, well
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Jan 15, 2024 02:29
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Main Paineframe posted:PE, in order to respond to this post, I'm really going to have to break it up into two separate pieces. I am of the opinion (and I think it will be shown pretty conclusively, eventually) that the IDF is responsible for far more deaths than they let on. I think incidents like like what happened at Be'eri are more prevalent and caused more harm than is being disclosed because I think that the state wants to officially maintain that the Hannibal directive has lapsed even if unofficially that might not be the case. But -- that's my speculation and not what I'm trying to argue here. I think if you read my argument as "everything that contradicts israel is automatically true" you've misread me. We don't and can't know the truth, but what we do know is what I've layed out: israel has a powerful propaganda arm, deep decades-long connections with western news outlets that are principally concerned with access, a long history of lying, and a direct need to maximize the horrors of 10/7. It's wrong to hyperfixate on 10/7 because not only does it not matter in the face of an ongoing genocide, but it serves the zionist purpose to harp on it incessantly when there is, again, an ongoing genocide that is being excused by lurid narratives that we cannot verify but are being propagated by our own news media. If we can't actually know what's actually going on we can't also implicitly assume the narrative coming from israeli sources is true, and considering israel's history of lying to forward their interests (via governmental or non-governmental sources like ZAKA) the safe bet is to assume israel is lying. Maybe Hamas isn't being truthful, sure, but israel is absolutely lying. As for Hamas, I think you're also coming from the assumption that I want to argue that they're angels that have never unduly hurt anyone, but that is also not the argument I'm making. They act about how you would expect as an underground terrorist-designated resistance group to act. Unlawful capture and torture of people they've identified as enemy agents, saboteurs, traitors, etc are pretty much par for the course. It is markedly different from the psychotic savagery that israel has them doing on 10/7. Killing? Destroying buildings? Taking hostages? Yeah, absolutely, that seems like something an underground resistance group would do. Beheading and burning babies? Cutting babies out of pregnant women's stomachs? Cutting off breasts and heads and kicking them around like soccer balls? Tying people up and burning them alive? Rape gangs? I'm sorry but that's a wildly different MO. israel has every reason to lie about this, and I think it's extremely naive to believe them.
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Jan 15, 2024 02:42
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My estimate is that since kids under four years old account for about 278k of 2.2 million people in Gaza, assuming that half of those kids are 0-2 years old, there are about 140k kids that most people would classify as “babies” in the strip. Using the simplifying assumption that the 1% of people in Gaza that the IDF has murdered applies equally to all age groups, that’s 1400 babies murdered by the IDF, and increasing every day. Since the IDF has also bombed and murdered every functioning office that collects reliable death statistics, we have no way to accurately determine the breakdown of how these babies were murdered, be it starvation or dehydration or being crushed/dismembered/trapped in the rubble of their own homes. I’m going to take a wild-rear end guess that it’s 20% starvation/dehydration and 80% crushed/dismembered/trapped, though that ratio seems likely to shift to starvation/dehydration as the Israelis continue cutting off water and food to the population of Gaza. So that’s about 1,120 babies murdered by the IDF in their brutal massacres of the civilian population of Gaza. I have no way to model how many of these babies were decapitated by the concrete, steel, glass, and furniture of segments of buildings above them l, or the corpses of their family members, that collapsed into their cribs and homes when the IDF demolished those buildings with families still in them. I’m going to go with 10%. So that’s about 112 babies decapitated by the IDF. Any critiques of my math here?
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Jan 15, 2024 03:06
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Marenghi posted:Wait are ISIS bad again? I thought they were good now because they are condemning Hamas. It's hard to keep up. Would be helpful if you could quote someone who has said this?
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Jan 15, 2024 04:42
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Irony Be My Shield posted:hiding in holes and begging the UN to save them.
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Jan 15, 2024 05:15
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socialsecurity posted:Would be helpful if you could quote someone who has said this? Probably confused with this guy Dapper_Swindler posted:agreed, and while i think the I-P horror show may affect michigan, no one is gonna cry over the US/UK and alot of europe and other countries bombing pirates who are taking advantage of poo poo. the houthies arnt the rebel alliance here. they have literal slavery and are giant assholes that even AQ hate.
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Jan 15, 2024 09:47
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socialsecurity posted:Would be helpful if you could quote someone who has said this? israeli prime minister Benjamin Netanyahu. Additionally, US secretary of defense Lloyd Austin called Hamas "worse than ISIS".
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Jan 15, 2024 16:21
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I realize no one is just going to drop it at this point, but I think the thread in general should try to cover current events and, where NECESSARY, the context that explains them. I can't recall any posts going into meaningful detail about anything that has happened on the ground since Jan 1 (apologies to any particular posters who tried) - there was a post or two about Israel maybe pulling back forces and linking an article, but instead of putting focus on new news the thread is constantly getting dragged into these spirals about culpability for Hamas and missiles targeting Yemen - which, for the record, is at least tangentially relevant and probably is okay to post briefly, but frankly the discussion about the morality of AA has gone stale and there are a ton of posts that are reiterating the exact same thing without sourcing or new information, white noise poo poo that amounts to two sentences. I realize that when people post falsehoods everyone feels obligated to strenuously object (and I am also guilty, on occasion), but regardless of which details you consider to be falsehoods in this current 10/7 discussion the conversation has drowned out the conversation about South Africa bringing an actual legal case against Israel which is more well-researched than any post can even potentially be due to character limits - it got posted once or maybe twice, but rather than engaging with any of that we are back in a loop about headless babies and determining whether someone went around with a hatchet or not as though that one particular lunatic would make any difference even if the claims WERE substantiated. I also don't really think the specific body count on 10/7 makes much difference in the end - the event would have set off the same chain of events even if all of the casualties were police/military, the number killed by IDF actions on that day are a drop in the bucket compared to how many Palestinians the IDF has killed since, and the specific perpetrators of whatever crimes on the Palestinian side most likely died on the same day they committed them. There's not ever going to be a way to mark every victim to their specific killer, and it probably won't be possible to even say how many were killed by IDF/Hamas/non-Hamas Palestinians/non-IDF Israelis. Unless litigating this is DIRECTLY relevant to something happening in the last 2 weeks (including new reporting relating to the event with substantially new sourcing) I don't think it is worth revisiting in-depth every time. At the end of the day, a lot of this poo poo is parallel to the start of the Ukraine thread where a bunch of posts were made talking about Azov battalion making Ukraine bad or realpolitik considerations of Russia starting the war or NATO culpability - even if that's a conversation worth having to you, it isn't what the thread is FOR. I think people broadly know that starting a thread just for arguing about the morality of resistance movements would get much less eyeballs, but that doesn't mean there's any reason to hold everyone here as a captive audience for debate club.
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Jan 15, 2024 17:33
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Death to Israel
Gumball Gumption fucked around with this message at 23:49 on May 14, 2024 |
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Jan 15, 2024 21:30
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Xpost: Iran bombed American and Israeli bases in Iraq https://twitter.com/AryJeay/status/1747003904645091439 E: yeah the American consulate was straight up bombed 
A big flaming stink fucked around with this message at 22:31 on Jan 15, 2024 |
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Jan 15, 2024 22:25
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What is that twitter account.
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Jan 15, 2024 22:31
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What Israeli sites in Iraq? Is that just Iranian conjecture?
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Jan 15, 2024 22:35
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Young Freud posted:What Israeli sites in Iraq? Is that just Iranian conjecture? They at least claim to have targeted spies: https://twitter.com/ME_Observer_/status/1747005279223337390
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Jan 15, 2024 22:38
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Discendo Vox posted:What is that twitter account. Another blue check making wild claims for engagementbux. I'm assuming since I have it blocked. USCENTCOM releases statement that Houthis have hit a US flagged ship. https://www.cnn.com/cnn/2024/01/15/politics/houthi-missile-strikes-us-owned-ship/index.html quote:A Houthi anti-ship ballistic missile struck a US-owned and operated cargo ship on Monday, US Central Command said in a statement. ummel fucked around with this message at 22:45 on Jan 15, 2024 |
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Jan 15, 2024 22:42
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ABC News is confirming the strikes on the Consulate... https://abcnews.go.com/Internationa...al_twitter_abcn
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Jan 15, 2024 23:08
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Young Freud posted:ABC News is confirming the strikes on the Consulate... That source says "near", and does not confirm that the consulate was hit.
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Jan 15, 2024 23:24
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Speaking of bullshit Tweets the one about Yemen teaming up against the US (which I don't think was directly posted here but was alluded to in the "civil war on pause" conversation) a few days ago was completely false. Here's the head of Yemen's recognised government saying that US strikes don't go far enough and that they should also directly help the PLC to topple the Houthis. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/jan/15/airstrikes-houthis-aidarus-al-zoubaidi-yemen quote:“We do not want the US-led coalition to repeat the same mistakes as the Arab-led coalition in Yemen when they concentrated airstrikes on Houthi positions without sufficient ground forces to supplement those strikes,” he said. “Airstrikes on their own are not enough. The Houthis have eight to 10 years’ experience of dealing with airstrikes by Saudi Arabia, and they have developed underground storage systems for their artillery.”
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Jan 15, 2024 23:47
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it's so funny people aggressively push "internationally recognized government" for some fuckwit dictator and his cronies who ruined their country living in rightfully deserved exile in the country that genocided their people. Repulsive.
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Jan 16, 2024 00:56
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Zedhe Khoja posted:it's so funny people aggressively push "internationally recognized government" for some fuckwit dictator and his cronies who ruined their country living in rightfully deserved exile in the country that genocided their people. Repulsive. Yeah it's insane how people defend the Israelis.
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Jan 16, 2024 01:01
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Professor Beetus posted:Why do these arguments about how many babies were decapitated keep coming up? If a baby is decapitated the proper way(with a sword, knife, axe, or machete) under international law it can be used as justification for an endless atrocities If it's decapitated by shrapnel from a bomb, then it cannot be. Everyone knows this except, sadly, Hamas or PIJ. If someone had just told them to toss a grenade into the nurseries, all of this could have been avoided. Heartbreaking really. BARONS CYBER SKULL posted:Yeah it's insane how people defend the Israelis. Is there a way we can connect the IDF to the Houthis so we can get some international condemnation of the IDF?
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Jan 16, 2024 01:31
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Jaxyon posted:Is there a way we can connect the IDF to the Houthis so we can get some international condemnation of the IDF? I mean... E: oops, this only connects them to Hamas. Sorry, I misread your post.
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Jan 16, 2024 01:49
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Jaxyon posted:
I mean, they are the nation that created and funded HAMAS https://www.analystnews.org/posts/how-israel-helped-prop-up-hamas-for-decades https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/
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Jan 16, 2024 01:52
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It's also very funny given that the internationally recognized head of the Yemeni government was put in power in an election that had only his name on the ballot. Then I remember how long Juan Guaido was the internationally recognized leader of Venezuela for and have another chuckle. Also very funny that the US are talking about freedom of navigation when it was their ships that blockaded Yemeni ports and prevented any food or medicine from getting in, leading to the deaths of many times more children than even Israel has so far managed to exterminate. Your Brain on Hugs fucked around with this message at 05:56 on Jan 16, 2024 |
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Jan 16, 2024 05:30
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Israel just desecrating Palestinian burial grounds now for some reason. Possibly to stop those dead returning to fight in the Skeleton War, would be about as logical as any other Israeli justification https://twitter.com/ajplus/status/1747175354999972134?t=ibzujqOTRySPYyb74r2h8A&s=19
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Jan 16, 2024 11:23
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Failed Imagineer posted:Israel just desecrating Palestinian burial grounds now for some reason. Possibly to stop those dead returning to fight in the Skeleton War, would be about as logical as any other Israeli justification Hey now, Hamas's necromancers are the best in the world. They are how Gaza still exists despite Israeli's attempts to kill everyone in Gaza 20 times over.
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Jan 16, 2024 12:02
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Failed Imagineer posted:Israel just desecrating Palestinian burial grounds now for some reason. Possibly to stop those dead returning to fight in the Skeleton War, would be about as logical as any other Israeli justification I would have guessed something like preventing observers from finding out how they died but they were already buried so that doesn't make much sense.
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Jan 16, 2024 15:41
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Destroying a cemetery removes another anchor for Palestinians to stick around for, because their dead ancestors and family friends aren't where they were buried anymore. There's less proof of a long history of Palestinian history and culture. It makes sense when you look at it from an ethnic cleansing point of view.
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Jan 16, 2024 15:54
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Looks like Bill Ackman got another Tweet, but here is a NYT article about it too https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/14/world/middleeast/gaza-cemeteries-damage-israel.html
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Jan 16, 2024 16:13
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Definitely the only democracy in the middle east with equal rights for all and not an ethno nationalist apartheid state: https://twitter.com/haaretzcom/status/1747257400854200388?t=UgPLh-3r6mc5W9enIriYcw&s=19 https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news...cf-3bf65cd70000
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Jan 16, 2024 23:14
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The Arab-Israeli host in question has tried her best to be "one of the good ones." Fascists never care. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucy_Aharish quote:She has described her identity as "Israeli, woman, Arab Muslim" in that order
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Jan 17, 2024 00:22
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Looks like Israel isn't interested in have a critical eye passed over the doctors and first responders that treated people on Oct. 7. https://x.com/LaraFriedmanDC/status/1747281715108716877?s=20 quote:The Health Ministry on Monday instructed members of the healthcare system not to cooperate with the Independent International Commission of Inquiry on the Occupied Palestinian Territory, including East Jerusalem, and Israel, citing its perceived anti-Israel stance.
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Jan 17, 2024 01:36
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Some insurers have decided to take Ansar Allah at their word, and are deciding to refuse coverage for US, UK and Israel-linked ships. https://www.bnnbloomberg.ca/insurers-seek-to-exclude-us-uk-ships-from-red-sea-coverage-1.2022613 The article posted:“Underwriters are adding clauses saying no US, UK or Israeli involvement,” he said. “Just about everybody is putting something like that in, and many include the words ‘ownership’ or ‘interest’.” At this point, it simply doesn't matter whether the Houthis are lying when they say they're doing this for the benefit of Gaza. The world is reacting as if they are. rscott posted:Definitely the only democracy in the middle east with equal rights for all and not an ethno nationalist apartheid state: The Zionist project's explicit goal is a Jewish State, led by (the right kind of) Jews, i.e. an ethnostate. Granting other races and religions equal rights conflicts with the core concept. An obsession with racial purity follows on very naturally from this.
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Jan 17, 2024 01:52
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Esran posted:Some insurers have decided to take Ansar Allah at their word, and are deciding to refuse coverage for US, UK and Israel-linked ships.
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Jan 17, 2024 02:03
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Irony Be My Shield posted:There was some misreporting initially but nobody's mind is going to be changed once they learn that Hamas prefers to shoot or set babies on fire rather than decapitate them, or that it ""only"" murdered 14 children under the age of 10 in cold blood. It's still an unbelievably heinous crime that fully justified a response from Israel, and therefore gave them cover to carry out reprisals against Palestinian civilians. i don't get what point you're trying to make? Israel has killed thousands of children. "Oh well they were provoked" is a pathetic response to a crime of that magnitude. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jan 17, 2024 20:32
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Regarde Aduck posted:i don't get what point you're trying to make? Israel has killed thousands of children. "Oh well they were provoked" is a pathetic response to a crime of that magnitude. I think a lotta these statements calling back to 10/7 after everything has happened in the past month boils down to this "Yeah, I can understand why they are murdering innocent men, women, and children"
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Jan 17, 2024 20:47
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https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSd1c-_56yYGTJNit_GjUB-th5C8M4SKapOibN8vsmicakWNCA/viewform Pop quiz! Here are 20 quotes. Can you determine which ones were said by prominent Israelis and/or supporters, and which ones come from Literal Nazis? I got 11/20, and I've been super tuned into this conflict.
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Jan 17, 2024 21:36
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