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Maybe invasions not actually being much fun for anybody is just From finally achieving what they wanted from the invasion system, which in every game lore-wise has always been a hosed up thing only total freaks would do. My co-op playthroughs are always casters now because it's just so much easier to fight invaders that way. I may not have raw skill but I do have volume of fire (Discus) and self-guided nukes (FotFG) and I find that mostly works, and nobody's day is improved by suddenly finding themselves the target of a fully charged crucible horn or tail explosivo posted:We decided to try Radahn again at the end of our session last night after doing some grinding throughout the night, first try we wiped but got farther in than ever. Second try I get knocked off my horse immediately, stun locked, and smashed into the ground before I can even hit him once. Both my friends end up kicking his rear end on their own. I like to think my death really encouraged them to do the deal. But seriously it is good to be past him finally and it was another fun moment of my one friend who has sorta been hanging on but not really doing the same off-session grinding that my friend and I have been doing ending last night like 100% back in and ready to play more. It's just funny seeing him in particular wax and wane between sessions of "I'm not sure if he wants to keep playing" and him screaming "I LOVE THIS FUCKIN GAME" after a hard fought victory over Radahn. Horse combat is something I consider to be mostly a trap. The exception is for spellcasters where they aren't limited to one attack per minute but still risk devastating punishment for getting hit. Against Radahn specifically you're always way safer right on his rear end and on foot.
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Jan 17, 2024 17:24
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GreatGreen posted:Can we stop using this argument please? It comes up constantly and it is possibly the single least thought-through idea in video games discussion, maybe next to "realism always equals more fun." Good golly gosh, this looks like a job for a mod. No need to git gud if you just remove the parts that are giving you a hard time...
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Jan 17, 2024 17:27
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Oxyclean posted:Invasions nearly make that an intentional design aspect - it's kind of fascinating, but it's incredibly delicate because it almost feels like part of the fun hinges on shoving uninterested players into it? Or certainly, you need other reasons for players to be around, other then the pvp aspect. Every single time the PvP-discussion starts up in a Souls thread, at some point someone will offer the suggestion of "Why can't it be fully optional? Why does a player have to be forced into potentially engaging in PvP, when they're only interested in coop which is PvE?". And then invariably the respons will be something along the lines of "Well, then I can't have fun two-shotting noobs with my insanely optimized build!".
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Jan 17, 2024 17:31
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They can't be fully optional because they're a core port of the gameplay, along with the rest of the async multiplayer mechanics. Invading owns, co-op owns, everything from messaging to miracle resonance lacing through all of the games owns. They're much lesser without it, which is a shame when replaying DS1 and 2 now, even though DS1 tries very hard to replicate it when possible with npc invasion and counter-invasion quests. RBA Starblade fucked around with this message at 17:35 on Jan 17, 2024 |
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Jan 17, 2024 17:32
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RBA Starblade posted:They can't be fully optional because they're a core port of the gameplay, along with the rest of the async multiplayer mechanics. It's fine to enjoy the PvP aspect of the game. But it's a completely different experience to PvE (both singleplayer and coop) to the point where it essentially feels like a completely different game. Which coincidentally is something From finally realized with Elden Ring now that PvP gets it's own balancing.
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Jan 17, 2024 17:45
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CAPT. Rainbowbeard posted:Good golly gosh, this looks like a job for a mod. Or instead of a mod, the community could talk about what works vs what doesn't, and hopefully studios respond by moving their designs closer to what people want. Otherwise you just end up with Bethesda, a company who has no idea why their games work at all, and most of the time they don't, so they need dozens of simultaneous entire-system overhaul mods working in tandem just to make their games even remotely entertaining. Also, loudly flexing about how everybody else is probably just lazy and not gud for not wanting to engage with the parts of a game they don't like isn't the own you think it is.
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Jan 17, 2024 17:47
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Raygereio posted:All the Souls games can be played offline and you'll have a full gameplay experience. PvP, or coop for that matter, isn't a core part of the gameplay. You can still have a fun time (and you should definitely still play them with the servers as ghost towns), but it's not the full experience. DS1 and 2 are the most impacted, but even Elden Ring will lose out on a lot without online play. Bloodborne for instance has entire areas where the entire gimmick is "you will be constantly invaded and attacked, run". DS2 has a boss where the invader is part of the fight and areas where the invader IS the boss, and has set the level accordingly, and areas and bosses that exist to be done cooperatively specifically. DS1 has like a half dozen incidental mechanics working with (or against) other players. DS3's Anor Londo is all but intended to be a rolling fistfight, and so on. Even Demon's Souls (and DS3 later!) has a fight where the actual boss is a fallback if it can't find a player. It's not a matter of pvp, it's online multi in general, which is why it's always eyerolling when someone says summons aren't meant to be used - of course they are. RBA Starblade fucked around with this message at 17:55 on Jan 17, 2024 |
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Jan 17, 2024 17:52
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Raygereio posted:And then invariably the respons will be something along the lines of "Well, then I can't have fun two-shotting noobs with my insanely optimized build!". Who is saying this? For the record, I'm extremely mediocre at pvp 
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Jan 17, 2024 17:56
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GreatGreen posted:Or instead of a mod, the community could talk about what works vs what doesn't, and hopefully studios respond by moving their designs closer to what people want. Otherwise you just end up with Bethesda, a company who has no idea why their games work at all, and most of the time they don't, so they need dozens of simultaneous entire-system overhaul mods working in tandem just to make their games even remotely entertaining. We're doing that now though, and a good start of the community is telling you that they like the asynchronous multiplayer parts!!
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Jan 17, 2024 17:57
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GreatGreen posted:Or instead of a mod, the community could talk about what works vs what doesn't, and hopefully studios respond by moving their designs closer to what people want. Otherwise you just end up with Bethesda, a company who has no idea why their games work at all, and most of the time they don't, so they need dozens of simultaneous entire-system overhaul mods working in tandem just to make their games even remotely entertaining. No, no, I'm posting the correct way. It disgusts me, but I'm doing it.
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Jan 17, 2024 17:58
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Played every game start to finish without invasions, didn't feel anything was missing at all. Some bosses like Mirror Knight it's so inconsequential it may as well not exist(usually killed before summon animation ever occurs) and some are genuinely bad anti design(Spear in DS3, Big Jar in ER.) And I love invading myself! I just recognize it's an optional usually post game joy. I never did the Pontiff hustle thinking for a second it was fair and for anyone playing the game blind it was just a shortcut to being de-embered after Pontiff and doing the area, which is a fully fleshed gauntlet with exploration, without the tasteless headache. My first invasions as a victim were about 3 times in DS1 where vastly more experienced and geared players just blew me up. The dream of the ideal pvp cat and mouse or invigorating duel is disappointingly rare. Entire segments and covenants in DS3 might as well have not existed unless you geared super specifically for them(swamp wolf), and even ER has enormous duds like being able to "invade" 2-3 guys waiting to fight Radahn in a tiny space with no features or cover. Now setting up specific builds, going to NG+1 Lyndell with a friend and popping tongue? Real cool! Invasion as an "integral part of the experience"? Huffing your own estus, Tarnished. And even all that said it's all subjective anyway just like the pve difficulties arguments. Doomykins fucked around with this message at 18:34 on Jan 17, 2024 |
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Jan 17, 2024 18:01
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You should only be able to invade people after scoring 90 or above on a series of short essay prompts related to the characters and themes in Elden Ring, in proper MLA format.
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Jan 17, 2024 18:01
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i like invasions as a mechanical idea, but you need to A) have a game that's tailored towards the idea by having more compact, connected designs that opens up opportunities for the invader and makes it easier for both parties to find eachother, and B) have a technical implementation that makes the experience fun instead of aggravating, something that the P2P netcode and lack of dedicated servers has consistently failed to foster, leading me to feel more like i'm trying to hit a ghost than fight another player
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Jan 17, 2024 18:01
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Raygereio posted:Let's be honest here: Shoving uninterested players into it is explicitly what makes it fun for a non-insignificant amount of people who want PvP. Yeah honestly I don't disagree, yet I still agree the games wouldn't really be the same with the ability to entirely opt out of invasions. (I mean, pretty much every game has the option to opt out invasions, either by playing offline or not using certain items, but those do come at certain costs.) I do think there are absolutely some players that tell on themselves with their feelings on invasions - but there is a sort of "magic" to making GBS threads your pants because a player has invaded your world to ruin your day, as much as their is magic to that faceless summon helper showing you how to find a certain item, or wordlessly helping you clear that boss that's been kicking your rear end. It's just a bit of a question of how much that magic has worn off after 4-5 games, and how much of it gets in the way of other experiences players are hoping to have.
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Jan 17, 2024 18:02
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RBA Starblade posted:They can't be fully optional because they're a core port of the gameplay, along with the rest of the async multiplayer mechanics. Invading owns, co-op owns, everything from messaging to miracle resonance lacing through all of the games owns. Respectfully, I disagree that invasions are central enough that making them an optional toggle would harm or diminish the game. Invasions and co-op are both incidental aspects of the games - the focus has always been soloing, hence the difficulty in balancing both co-op and invasions. The difference however is that invasions harm the experience of a subset of the player base, while co-op does not. IE: My co-op doesn't force any change in your game, but your invasion does force a change on mine. The best system would be individual toggles for co-op and invasions, with arena PVP available regardless of the specific settings. That will probably diminish the pool of available invasion targets, but given the fact that neither multiplayer choice is a core part of the game, I don't feel a negative impact on invasions is enough to justify blocking the positive impact an opt out would have on the majority of the players. Invasion PVP has always been a minority of players, and giving their experience essentially a veto over co-op isn't the best choice. Additionally, just because "this is how it's always been" doesn't mean it's the best way, and it's not uncommon for studios/devs to keep using sub-par mechanics just because that's how it's always been done (see: Pokémon).
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Jan 17, 2024 18:05
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Nothing will ever replicate the good old days of DS2's Bell covenant. I'd cast homing crystal soul mass, use Chameleon to "hide", and sooner or later they'd come to touch my bell and run into the Battle Barrel, or hiding directly behind the Looking Glass Knight and healing it for five minutes.Annath posted:Respectfully, I disagree that invasions are central enough that making them an optional toggle would harm or diminish the game. To be clear I'm arguing the online multi and the async elements in general are, not just invasions - and that part is already a (mostly) optional toggle in all of them for direct player involvement. RBA Starblade fucked around with this message at 18:08 on Jan 17, 2024 |
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Jan 17, 2024 18:05
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one trick wo long did that i liked a lot was that its invasions had predefined invasion areas instead of making the entire level accessible, and these were generally areas that had a good mixture of natural hazards, complex enemy spawns, and various side routes invaders could take to throw someone off or get around behind their target. the first invasion spot is near the end of a mission next to a bunch of toxic pools that drain your stamina that're filled with a bunch of highly dangerous elite enemies, and having a defined arena of sorts rat covenant style worked a lot better when it came to creating a memorable experience
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Jan 17, 2024 18:08
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For whatever reason I'd only get invaded in Demon's Souls on 3-2 and almost nowhere else. Epic battles on top of the Upper Latrian spires.
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Jan 17, 2024 18:11
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RBA Starblade posted:Nothing will ever replicate the good old days of DS2's Bell covenant. I'd cast homing crystal soul mass, use Chameleon to "hide", and sooner or later they'd come to touch my bell and run into the Battle Barrel, or hiding directly behind the Looking Glass Knight and healing it for five minutes. I played DS2 for the first time during return to Drangleic last year and Belfry Luna was real active! I managed to run the gauntlet and kill one invader but then I got double-teamed on the roof and was wrecked by another invader on the second try. Third try, I ran past everything and discovered my old friends the gargoyles That was one of my favorite parts of DS2. Also, getting invaded in the shaded forest, thinking gently caress THIS IS TERRIFYING and using the mimic veil equivalent to turn into a statue. The dude ran past me three times before giving up lol
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Jan 17, 2024 18:25
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Sometimes the community advice is just a group of noisy annoying people that might ruin the game for the rest. Sometimes the community advice will help improve a game. Throw a dice because it can go well, or it can go horribly wrong.
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Jan 17, 2024 18:29
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Experiencing frustration or anger or embarrassment isn't "harm," it's a sign that the medium is striving for something more than the satisfaction of a full stomach. You don't have to like it -- I complain about things I don't like in this game and its cousins all the time! -- but the urge to moralize it, as if to escape the creeping anxiety that your aesthetic preferences aren't important enough, aren't indisputable enough, is the worst thing about this conversation every time it comes up.
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Jan 17, 2024 18:32
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Epic High Five posted:Pure faith, incants only or 99% incants (sword and shield is just the best when it comes to dogs and imps) Thank you all, I'll try this route and if it doesn't click it's Hammertime™.
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Jan 17, 2024 18:39
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Fruits of the sea posted:I played DS2 for the first time during return to Drangleic last year and Belfry Luna was real active! I managed to run the gauntlet and kill one invader but then I got double-teamed on the roof and was wrecked by another invader on the second try. Oh nice, I didn't know it was still so active! I'll have to reinstall
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Jan 17, 2024 18:40
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This year is probably not the best time, if the Elden Ring DLC drops a couple weeks before Return to Drangleic. It’s pretty cool that the community has organized a couple weeks every year to play the older games. I did a ton of DS1 invasions in Oolacile last year during Return to Lordran as well.
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Jan 17, 2024 18:52
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thinking about respeccing into a build that uses the spinny executioners sword because it is cool
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Jan 17, 2024 18:55
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:Experiencing frustration or anger or embarrassment isn't "harm," it's a sign that the medium is striving for something more than the satisfaction of a full stomach. You don't have to like it -- I complain about things I don't like in this game and its cousins all the time! -- but the urge to moralize it, as if to escape the creeping anxiety that your aesthetic preferences aren't important enough, aren't indisputable enough, is the worst thing about this conversation every time it comes up. I see a difference between difficulty/frustration arising from solo/PVE content, and that caused by invasions. In PVE content, I am engaging with content that, while I might not be good at right now, I am (theoretically) enjoying and getting better at. Invasions are content I am not good at, require substantially different playstyles and even gearing, and that I don't have any interest in. So yes, one person's playstyle negatively impacting mine is a bad thing. It's not a moral issue, and I didn't imply such, but it is a design failing. There's a reason that the vast majority of games that feature both PVP and PVE modes/content segregate them so one doesn't impact the other.
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Jan 17, 2024 18:57
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I disagree that co-op and invasions are inherently connected, two sides of the same coin, or anything like that. I think they’re very different multiplayer mechanics and it was a mistake to unavoidably tie them together in ER. In DS1 I would become human even if I did not need the health boost or a summon, just so that I could be invaded. In ER if I want to open myself up to invasions I have to summon someone, which changes the gameplay experience in an entirely different way and also sometimes there just isn’t anyone to summon.
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Jan 17, 2024 18:59
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Counterpoint, it's fantastic because it means I can't be invaded while solo :P
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Jan 17, 2024 19:01
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Drain 001 posted:Thank you all, I'll try this route and if it doesn't click it's Hammertime™. The long doot's weapon art scales 100% off faith and it is a capable great hammer besides, just something to keep in mind! The nice thing about bonk builds is that you get 50% more str for scaling and requirements by two handing on top of more hyperarmor and posture damage. I prefer straight swords for my 99% caster builds but there's not really any reason why it couldn't be a Great Stars, and the Holy Ground shield ash got a big buff and would have great co-op utility if anybody knew what Holy Ground was when they saw it. That and warming stones are your friend for co-op as they're the most efficient way to turn FP into HP and both heal allies (and enemies) as well
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Jan 17, 2024 19:10
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GENUINE CAT HERDER posted:I was thinking the other day about how fun the game would be if there was a randomized version. Turns out while watching YouTube videos today I discovered that there is! It's great, can recommend
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Jan 17, 2024 19:18
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Re: 2H strength scaling - is that only for weapons, or any item? Like if I 2H the beast talisman, am I increasing its potency since it scales off strength?
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Jan 17, 2024 19:18
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Annath posted:Re: 2H strength scaling - is that only for weapons, or any item? It does, you can see it reflected in the spell scaling stat iirc. It's not a huge difference but it is a difference. I tend to find it's not worth the extra button presses
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Jan 17, 2024 19:19
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Ariong posted:I disagree that co-op and invasions are inherently connected, two sides of the same coin, or anything like that. I think they’re very different multiplayer mechanics and it was a mistake to unavoidably tie them together in ER. In DS1 I would become human even if I did not need the health boost or a summon, just so that I could be invaded. In ER if I want to open myself up to invasions I have to summon someone, which changes the gameplay experience in an entirely different way and also sometimes there just isn’t anyone to summon. Yeah, I'm not following this logic of them being intertwined when this is the first time they have done this. In BB you could just kill the bell ringing woman, in DS you had covenants so a better chance of a sunbro showing up to help, etc. ER is the only one where its only co-op that triggers invasions. And at the end of the day, I will never understand it as it amounts to trolling. I don't get the desire to gently caress up someone else's time playing the game who likely summoned help because they are already struggling with something. I've literally been the one summoned by a friend who was learning the game only to have them get frustrated and stop playing because invaders compounded their frustrations. So great job guys you did it I guess?
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Jan 17, 2024 19:22
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Vermain posted:one trick wo long did that i liked a lot was that its invasions had predefined invasion areas instead of making the entire level accessible, and these were generally areas that had a good mixture of natural hazards, complex enemy spawns, and various side routes invaders could take to throw someone off or get around behind their target. the first invasion spot is near the end of a mission next to a bunch of toxic pools that drain your stamina that're filled with a bunch of highly dangerous elite enemies, and having a defined arena of sorts rat covenant style worked a lot better when it came to creating a memorable experience I think having a designated 'go here to get owned' zone would be missing alot of the point of invasions, but at the very least I think they could have been dungeon only in Elden Ring. The interconnectness and multiple angles of attack is part of the charm like your game has just been invaded by Mr X, it can be a real cat and mouse experience with you both trying to use the terrain and level features to your advantage
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Jan 17, 2024 19:24
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WoodrowSkillson posted:I don't get the desire to gently caress up someone else's time playing the game who likely summoned help because they are already struggling with something. I don’t have any animus towards people I invade and I resent the implication that engaging with a game in the way it was intended is morally wrong.
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Jan 17, 2024 19:29
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WoodrowSkillson posted:Yeah, I'm not following this logic of them being intertwined when this is the first time they have done this. In BB you could just kill the bell ringing woman, in DS you had covenants so a better chance of a sunbro showing up to help, etc. ER is the only one where its only co-op that triggers invasions. In DS1 & 3 you only got invaded when you powered up, which was a pre-req to co-op. Elden Ring is actually way nicer to hosts in that regard by letting you use Rune Arcs without getting invaded, now there has to be an in-built player advantage for invasions to happen when before you only needed to be embered or human
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Jan 17, 2024 19:30
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Maybe we just need to start picking some seeds off these giant trees, that was always a fun way to turn things around on a cagey or way better invader
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Jan 17, 2024 19:30
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Epic High Five posted:Maybe we just need to start picking some seeds off these giant trees, that was always a fun way to turn things around on a cagey or way better invader Seeds of the Giant Tree were fantastic and they never should have nerfed them. (They used to last for an entire invasion, and for some insane reason Fromsoft reduced it to 45 seconds or something like that.) Like, who the gently caress asked for that? All they did was make things more interesting.
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Jan 17, 2024 19:33
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Fruits of the sea posted:I don’t have any animus towards people I invade You're not the vast majority of invaders people experience. The min maxed gank invaders sit in one zone and invade constantly, so they're what most people are going to encounter. Fruits of the sea posted:and I resent the implication that engaging with a game in the way it was intended is morally wrong. Quit bringing up morality, you're the only one doing it. Nobody is saying players like you are "wrong", we're saying it's a bad design decision because it allows players (who are not you) interfere with other players' experiences. Stop trying to make it out like you're being personally attacked. If you can't have a discussion in good faith about the topic, log off and touch some grass.
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Jan 17, 2024 19:36
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Any time an armchair designer comes in telling us how they should 'improve' these games I think they should be placed into a large cannon and shot into a toxic swamp, personally. It's always, always just 'defang any bit of tension or friction I don't like', as we see here
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Jan 17, 2024 19:40
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