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PoundSand)
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Gunshow Poophole posted:once the animal reservoirs were established in mid 2020 there was no eradication possible we can move the goalposts, sure. but it’s still simply not true that we never could have eradicated it. the myth that eradication was never possible serves only the status quo and the effort to get us to give up.
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Jan 17, 2024 15:52
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Steve Yun posted:Covid was never going to be eradicated with our current tools. Even if the US eliminated it, people in other countries are going to have it and travel would mean bringing it back here. And animal reservoirs as mentioned above. if one person got COVID from a deer or cat or Bali that means the whole country can get it again I mean, if you had masking except where it is not reasonably possible and changed nothing else you might still look pretty good. Sitting around with a mask except when you're stuffing your face sounds silly, but the principle is the same as when running an air purifier, which you could also do. Less virus in the air and in the lungs should lead to statistically fewer infections. A lot of countries tried to do smoking indoors but with designated, better ventilated, rooms. Was still pretty lovely, but could still lead to quite large improvements here. 
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Jan 17, 2024 15:56
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Gunshow Poophole posted:once the animal reservoirs were established in mid 2020 there was no eradication possible I would agree that eradication is unlikely. A year or two ago I would have said that getting COVID under control such that most of the country doesn't need special protections in place for it was possible. Given what we're learning about long term immune impacts and the somewhat obvious population level impacts we're seeing with other pathogens, I'm less confident on that today. Doesn't mean we should give up on trying to save as many lives as we can, but yeah the outlook on a COVID free future without some kind of miracle sterilizing vaccine is pretty grim. It really just means the bane mask stays on forever lmao.
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Jan 17, 2024 15:57
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Teabag Dome Scandal posted:This is a few days old but since I've had covid back in September I've been having silent acid reflux flareups that manifest in me as jaw pain. I've also been having discomfort along my sternum that some medication for stomach ulcers has helped. Liver issues is one of those things were you (or rather your wife) needs to talk to a doctor. Both Paxlovid (or rather ritonavir) and COVID are associated with liver issues, the latter as direct damage, while the former (iirc) seems more aligned with exacerbating existing problems. Before she takes Paxlovid again (and probably wise to do it well in advance), she should clear it with her doctor.
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Jan 17, 2024 15:57
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Gunshow Poophole posted:once the animal reservoirs were established in mid 2020 there was no eradication possible Eradicate no, but we could technically remove COVID as a constant scourge and stamp it out when we get zoonotic infections. So far the zoonotic infections (well... since the first one), have not been great at spreading. Like we don't need to stamp out all bat coronavirus diseases to stop SARS-CoV-2 doing victory laps on the cells of humanity. The freak show variant I posted above is so weird because it is optimizing for deer, but humans are notably not deer and so it will generally make it less infectious to humans. Where I think you'll get the true issues with the zoonotic infections is when they recombine, making part of the virus alien, while maintaining enough human targeting bullshit to keep it infectious. But that requires an ongoing pandemic in humans to occur and we just don't need to keep that going (imho, though I understand this is controversial). Pingui has issued a correction as of 16:05 on Jan 17, 2024 |
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Jan 17, 2024 16:02
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Pingui posted:Actually, if you believe in a just world hard enough, you will realize that COVID is neither pulmonary nor cardiovascular, but a disease of the mind. Easily cured by ignoring reality. This is something that comes up in some of the Verso and Zer0 books about Covid as a disease of capitalism, and I understand it sort-of, but I'm confused, just like with QE, about the pursuit of policies that are rapidly unravelling the system. I know pursuit of short term profit is the easiest answer, and a generation of ideologues, compounded by the experience of the End of History, mean that all of these dumb Capitalist/Protestant/American axioms are accepted by people who are actually important, but it's still ... for lack of a better word.. crazy to me that "pretend a disease doesn't exist" was and is considered viable at levels ranging from the individual to supranational.
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Jan 17, 2024 16:16
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the notion of pursuing short term profit and ignoring long term sustainability of profits (or even, you know, a habitable planet) seems crazy too, but here we are
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Jan 17, 2024 16:19
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Frosted Flake posted:This is something that comes up in some of the Verso and Zer0 books about Covid as a disease of capitalism, and I understand it sort-of, but I'm confused, just like with QE, about the pursuit of policies that are rapidly unravelling the system. I know pursuit of short term profit is the easiest answer, and a generation of ideologues, compounded by the experience of the End of History, mean that all of these dumb Capitalist/Protestant/American axioms are accepted by people who are actually important, but it's still ... for lack of a better word.. crazy to me that "pretend a disease doesn't exist" was and is considered viable at levels ranging from the individual to supranational. I believe this is exactly what we’d see if there were no “plan”. we just have that there system of feedback loops and surveillance that keeps things running toward eventual destruction now
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Jan 17, 2024 17:15
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Pingui posted:Eradicate no, but we could technically remove COVID as a constant scourge and stamp it out when we get zoonotic infections. So far the zoonotic infections (well... since the first one), have not been great at spreading. Like we don't need to stamp out all bat coronavirus diseases to stop SARS-CoV-2 doing victory laps on the cells of humanity. yeah, we could just adjust society somewhat unobtrusively and make it a non-society-ending, manageable disease burden. I'm saying that we had a chance, for about 4 months, of putting it to bed completely (in support of tuyop's idea that the impossibility is basically a lie that underpins the status quo). but airplane travel and reverse zoonoses ended that chance. here in the dumbest empire in history we can't even control deer, much less the diseases they introduce at every threshold of nature with society. they're basically rats with hooves.
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Jan 17, 2024 17:30
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Gunshow Poophole posted:
The hunter that killed Bambi's mother did nothing wrong.
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Jan 17, 2024 17:33
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Eradication of Covid-19 is still theoretically possible! ...it would just require, you know, not having this whole global system of perverse incentives standing in the way first, so uh, even in the incredibly-unlikely absolute best-case scenario you're looking at a pretty long time-line lol Even with capitalism being capitalism, eradication or containment was theoretically possible for the first couple of months early on; in spite of our dumb world and its dumb systems of governance and commerce, effective control efforts have stopped dozens of disease outbreaks! Quarantines work, germ theory still holds true. Covid however seems to have hit the sweet spot where its virulence was great enough to overcome the zero-plasticity brains of the multi-generational failsons of current policy-makers, and by the time there was any sense of urgency globally politicians had pretty much shrugged it off as someone else's problem. This seems like an inevitable outcome of the last century of neo-liberalism/globalism/capitalism, however you want to describe it, to the extent that people have been writing about this exact scenario and its dangers for most of that time; if it wasn't Covid, it would likely be another disease, if the policies and trends of wealth consolidation and inequality weren't halted, and we didn't do that, so here we are. The ability and willingness of governments to do token civic duties and provide nominal social goods has been decaying because consent manufacturing outpaced social unrest. I think I'm in a relatively small minority when I say that fatalism about the human species is a stupid and mal-adaptive response to such a crisis, but I completely understand how people get to that conclusion logically when you have decades of both scientific papers and popular fiction screaming DON'T IGNORE THE BIG OBVIOUS DISEASE OUTBREAKS THAT YOUR SOCIETY IS SETTING UP FOR and we beefed it so spectacularly. Nevermind, you know, uh. The centuries of inequality and brutality that preceded this particular highlight of stupidity. i however am doing the Big Dumb of posting just after waking up, so maybe I'll get drubbed for this one idk 8V
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Jan 17, 2024 17:54
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I take the view that eradication of Covid is impossible to be utterly untrue, and in fact total eradication is all but guaranteed one way or other. it counts when there's no more hosts left to propagate right?
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Jan 17, 2024 18:00
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Pingui posted:Actually, if you believe in a just world hard enough, you will realize that COVID is neither pulmonary nor cardiovascular, but a disease of the mind. Easily cured by ignoring reality. 
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Jan 17, 2024 18:02
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NeonPunk posted:it counts when there's no more hosts left to propagate right? mammals are on their way out anyway
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Jan 17, 2024 18:08
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DR FRASIER KRANG posted:ah yes, acute hearing loss. that classic Covid symptom. Profound sensorineural hearing loss was found in 7% of long-term COVID-19 patients. Mild sensorineural hearing loss for 6000Hz was found in 12–13% of patients, similarly to moderate sensorineural hearing loss. Severe sensorineural hearing loss for 6000Hz occurred in 3.4% of long-COVID-19 patients.
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Jan 17, 2024 18:42
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"We're never going to eradicate covid" is kind of a non-sequitur since the only human disease ever eradicated is smallpox. We haven't eradicated measles, mumps, rubella, influenza, RSV, herpes, HIV, etc. etc. the list goes on and on and on. Eradication is a nice goal to have but you don't need to get there to make the disease something that you don't have to worry about on a daily basis - and a sterilizing vaccine isn't going to get us to eradication either since we effectively have one for several less contagious diseases and haven't managed to eradicate those even with it. Mandated installation of high ACH air cleaning technologies in all public spaces (whether that's ventilation, filtration, or upper-room UV or all three in combination), wide-spread CO2 monitoring, a campaign to do constant rapid PCR-quality surveillance testing to identify and knock down outbreaks before the law of large numbers kicks in, free fit testing and distribution of n95+ masks to everyone by mail, mandates to wear them (literally, to wear ffrs, not just face coverings) everywhere they're practical (and actual enforcement on planes, in schools, hospitals, etc. that are very high potential super-spreader environments), funds to put every doctor nurse and tech in a comfortable powered respirator at all times when interacting with patients, and financial supports so that people can just take days off and get re-tested any time they feel a little off, etc. can make the effective reproduction number lower than 1 in a human population. If the reproduction number is lower than one and stays there, humans win. Obviously the systematic incentives are against all of that poo poo. Obviously we're paying a tremendous human cost right now and cooking up a future sars-cov-3 simultaneously and this fight is going to get harder every single day. But the techniques and technologies to fight the fight aren't out of reach and most importantly are not a moving target and we could adopt them tomorrow if the political economy wasn't totally hosed. HVAC and electrostatic filter media are not cutting edge, difficult to deploy, or yet-to-be-invented technology that may not even be possible physically the way a sterilizing vaccine is, they don't need to be updated the way a vaccine does. The ventilation upgrades, the filtration upgrades, and the FFRs that work today are going to work forever. Tests also to a slightly lesser extent due to target gene dropout but that's a much more solvable problem than vaccine updates to vaccines that are already very leaky. Obviously we should also be funding the sterilizing vaccine moonshot at the maximum level of effective effort but banking on that as the solution to this problem is, imo, looking for wunderwaffe to win the war rather than just outproducing the enemy and winning the battle of attrition that we're faced with anyway rather than continuing to lose it.
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Jan 17, 2024 18:49
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Shady Amish Terror posted:The ability and willingness of governments to do token civic duties and provide nominal social goods has been decaying because consent manufacturing outpaced social unrest. I think I'm in a relatively small minority when I say that fatalism about the human species is a stupid and mal-adaptive response to such a crisis, but I completely understand how people get to that conclusion logically when you have decades of both scientific papers and popular fiction screaming DON'T IGNORE THE BIG OBVIOUS DISEASE OUTBREAKS THAT YOUR SOCIETY IS SETTING UP FOR and we beefed it so spectacularly. Nevermind, you know, uh. The centuries of inequality and brutality that preceded this particular highlight of stupidity. the bolded is definitely a part of the process but I think the main cause of the effects that we’re grappling is the collapse of the Soviet Union. it also keeps us away from the biotruths and ahistorical nonsense. we* had nice things because the bosses were scared of the other big boss. it took awhile for the nice things to go away because they had inertia.
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Jan 17, 2024 18:57
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mawarannahr posted:Profound sensorineural hearing loss was found in 7% of long-term COVID-19 patients. Mild sensorineural hearing loss for 6000Hz was found in 12–13% of patients, similarly to moderate sensorineural hearing loss. Severe sensorineural hearing loss for 6000Hz occurred in 3.4% of long-COVID-19 patients. hearing loss as a symptom was reported in a case study out of the Mayo clinic as early as June 2020. Comparatively rare to loss of / damage to sense of smell, but yeah. It happens.
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Jan 17, 2024 18:58
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More evidence that Covid makes you stupider https://twitter.com/EricTopol/status/1747648382531985621 Speaking of metformin, my brother got like a full year supply mailed to him. I was like wtf how did you manage to get that. Turns out that those same website where they put ads on Tiktok for hair loss medications and ED also have metformin on their website too. Turns out it's been prescribed off label for weight loss so I'm assuming that is why they got it, but hey that's a good thing for folks suffering from Long covid that doesn't have any insurance or doctors willing to prescribe it to them.
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Jan 17, 2024 19:00
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tuyop posted:the bolded is definitely a part of the process but I think the main cause of the effects that we’re grappling is the collapse of the Soviet Union. eh i think late capitalism would be late capitalisming regardless
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Jan 17, 2024 19:03
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The Oldest Man posted:words good post i've seen that analogy of the mid 19-th century cholera epidemics in london made. it was an ah-ha and galvanizing moment that led to huge increases in drinking water quality the difference is that there was a genuine misunderstanding about how cholera spread back then, but a genuine desire to stop it. Now, we have genuine understanding of how covid is spread, but no genuine desire to stop it.
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Jan 17, 2024 19:08
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Teabag Dome Scandal posted:This is a few days old but since I've had covid back in September I've been having silent acid reflux flareups that manifest in me as jaw pain. I've also been having discomfort along my sternum that some medication for stomach ulcers has helped. yeah just another fun post-viral thing you can get, I had a silent reflux for like 2 years after getting a bad case of the flu. it eventually resolved itself but still was not fun
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Jan 17, 2024 19:10
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The Oldest Man posted:eh i think late capitalism would be late capitalisming regardless climate change would absolutely be even worse, that's for sure
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Jan 17, 2024 19:13
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JAY ZERO SUM GAME posted:if the ussr had been successful in market reforms in 89/90, they were successful. the 90s-2010s are exactly what their advocates wanted.
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Jan 17, 2024 19:17
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JAY ZERO SUM GAME posted:good post yeah the fact that i as an individual can buy almost all of these technologies - and they're not even that expensive for the most part - but theres no move to deploy them en masse should be the signal that we're totally hosed for reasons that have nothing to do with the tools themselves being insufficient to the task.
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Jan 17, 2024 19:20
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The Oldest Man posted:they were successful. the 90s-2010s are exactly what their advocates wanted.
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Jan 17, 2024 19:29
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Frosted Flake posted:This is something that comes up in some of the Verso and Zer0 books about Covid as a disease of capitalism, and I understand it sort-of, but I'm confused, just like with QE, about the pursuit of policies that are rapidly unravelling the system. I know pursuit of short term profit is the easiest answer, and a generation of ideologues, compounded by the experience of the End of History, mean that all of these dumb Capitalist/Protestant/American axioms are accepted by people who are actually important, but it's still ... for lack of a better word.. crazy to me that "pretend a disease doesn't exist" was and is considered viable at levels ranging from the individual to supranational. There are multiple causal factors contributing to the observed behavior; some are standalone and some interact and mediate/moderate each other. And some of them are less directly related to the etiology of COVID and the associated technologies and policies that would reduce disease burden than others. One reason for what we're seeing that I'm guessing will resonate with you given your and your wife's work is that meaningful public health action to reduce the spread of an airborne pathogen as infective as SARS-2 is both hard work and inherently risky. Here I mean risky in the sense that you - the royal you of state power - can do everything "right" and still lose. Especially if you have a time table for arriving at a win condition that is politically- rather than operationally-determined. That's the fuckin rub here: any state that credibly commits to applying itself to solve this problem and fails is going to look like a no-capacity clownshow. And let's be clear, this is a problem of the safety and security of the population, which usually everyone from CATO to Cuba can agree is a first principle of state legitimacy. So now you're seen by some significant amount of your citizens as illegitimate. In short: doing hard and risky poo poo leaves a real chance of failure, and failure implies illegitimacy. Western governments and the people who staff them understand - some explicitly (like yourself) but most implicitly - that their legitimacy is under existential threat irrespective of SARS-2. These same organizations and people saw the resistance to basic public health measures and concluded that between the behavioral recalcitrance and the economic costs associated with meaningful state action, there was no way in hell they were going to do anything other than roll out a first generation vaccine before rolling up/back the other NPI-based measures. Mission Accomplished; doesn't the air just smell sweeter? Milder and milder. Etc. Acknowledging this mistake and changing course takes you right back to the delegitimizing outcome but now you're there before you even do anything material. It's hard to imagine any western country changing tack and implementing useful public health policies again until they have had a sufficiently polarizing change of government that the new one can foist all of the blame for prior inaction on the old one. Whether that would work or not is an empirical question, but I personally don't think we'll see it tested anytime soon. It's important to note that when I say taking evidence-based NPI approaches to reducing SARS-2 disease burden is hard, I mean that it is both materially hard for a hollowed-out state that lacks real internal capacity because they don't really know what to do or how to do things without a consultant, and that it is (1) perceived to be hard by the useful idiots who wield policymaking power; and (2) deliberately made to appear harder than it is by capital, which refuses to bear any associated monetary or transactions costs. See The Oldest Man's post re: the eradication red-herring and what is reasonably possible. This is also the factor that is probably the most charitable to state decision-makers. They don't deserve any, but I felt inclined to post anyway.
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Jan 17, 2024 19:47
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The Oldest Man posted:"We're never going to eradicate covid" is kind of a non-sequitur since the only human disease ever eradicated is smallpox. We haven't eradicated measles, mumps, rubella, influenza, RSV, herpes, HIV, etc. etc. the list goes on and on and on. Eradication is a nice goal to have but you don't need to get there to make the disease something that you don't have to worry about on a daily basis - and a sterilizing vaccine isn't going to get us to eradication either since we effectively have one for several less contagious diseases and haven't managed to eradicate those even with it. Great post
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Jan 17, 2024 19:47
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captainbananas posted:There are multiple causal factors contributing to the observed behavior; some are standalone and some interact and mediate/moderate each other. And some of them are less directly related to the etiology of COVID and the associated technologies and policies that would reduce disease burden than others. drat
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Jan 17, 2024 19:50
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tuyop posted:we could have done this again with covid if we hadn’t hosed up the playbook China distributed to contain this poo poo. if anything we're doing it EXACTLY by the chinese playbook: look the other way, bury all the evidence, and loving shrug. li wenliang never 4get
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Jan 17, 2024 19:54
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The Oldest Man posted:Obviously we're paying a tremendous human cost right now and cooking up a future sars-cov-3 simultaneously a little unrelated, but how much genetic difference is required from 2 before it becomes 3?
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Jan 17, 2024 19:54
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NeonPunk posted:More evidence that Covid makes you stupider quote:Given our findings, we posit that over the coming years, there is a need to closely monitor COVID-19 patients for an increased risk of developing PD-related symptoms.  although: these are largely in-vitro results, and the in-vivo component is 6 autopsies of COVID patients, who died of COVID (can't find details (ed: yes they died of COVID)) so this might not show up as often in people with less severe cases, we don't know yet ed again: oh, hello there old friend, fancy seeing you here quote:Immunostaining showed accumulation of p-a-Syn (cohort 1, Figure 7F) in COVID-19 samples compared with the expression in non-COVID-19 samples, which indicates a potential link of PD phenotypes within the substantia nigra of COVID-19 patients despite the lack of acute clinical symptoms specific to midbrain dysfunction. CGI Stardust has issued a correction as of 20:09 on Jan 17, 2024 |
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Jan 17, 2024 19:54
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mawarannahr posted:Profound sensorineural hearing loss was found in 7% of long-term COVID-19 patients. Mild sensorineural hearing loss for 6000Hz was found in 12–13% of patients, similarly to moderate sensorineural hearing loss. Severe sensorineural hearing loss for 6000Hz occurred in 3.4% of long-COVID-19 patients. yeah that isn't what this person described at all. cool stats though.
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Jan 17, 2024 20:11
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DR FRASIER KRANG posted:yeah that isn't what this person described at all. cool stats though. tbh because it subsided, my guess is that it was just my ear canals getting hugely inflamed. my body reacts the exact same way to the vaccine, which is incidentally why i tend to avoid getting it -- i don't lead a high-exposure lifestyle, and going almost completely deaf is really quite terrifying if you've ever had it happen to you
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Jan 17, 2024 20:18
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ya know, I also have huge adverse reactions to the covid vaccines but the Novavax I got last time did not knock me down like Moderna did before.
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Jan 17, 2024 20:27
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Platystemon posted:If it’s one of the approved expectant parent/elderly vaccines now being trialed in healthy adults, I would take it. I just texted the trial rep spamming me about it and he said the manufacturer is Moderna. Considering doing it.
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Jan 17, 2024 20:34
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Once the Diamond Princess docked at Japan and they let all of the possibly infected people wander around without strict quarantine protocols, there was zero chance of eradicating COVID. That was the breaking point.
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Jan 17, 2024 20:45
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Everytime there is an ebola outbreak the US gets all tut-tutty over africans eating "bushmeat". But covid in deer here means that we can never get rid of covid.... because of all our hunters eating bushmeat? It's loving outdoors too. You'd have to be huffing the deer's dying breaths to catch covid from it. The gently caress is going on out there? There are all sorts of diseases in wild animal populations that aren't ravaging us anymore because we learned things like "don't pet the prairie dogs".
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Jan 17, 2024 20:47
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NeonPunk posted:More evidence that Covid makes you stupider Have there been any other studies ongoing about metformin and covid since that one last june? It would be nice if this readily available drug had treatment recommendations if it really is effective vs covid.
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Jan 17, 2024 20:48
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Pink Mist posted:a little unrelated, but how much genetic difference is required from 2 before it becomes 3? thats a question of human taxonomic politics you could make the case that omicron already was sars-cov-3, or jn1 is, etc. it's no different than "it's all omicron" vs "but the antibodies don't cross react." Baddog posted:Everytime there is an ebola outbreak the US gets all tut-tutty over africans eating "bushmeat". But covid in deer here means that we can never get rid of covid.... because of all our hunters eating bushmeat? It's loving outdoors too. You'd have to be huffing the deer's dying breaths to catch covid from it. The gently caress is going on out there? how exactly do you think the deer got covid from humans in the first place? it's because there are a non-trivial number of people who go "oh cute deer let me pet it, have a snack deer" and covid is very contagious. reverse transmission is going to happen the exact same way. quote:There are all sorts of diseases in wild animal populations that aren't ravaging us anymore because we learned things like "don't pet the prairie dogs". bad news about that, people still get plague every year because they cant stop petting prairie dogs: https://www.cdc.gov/plague/maps/index.html
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Jan 17, 2024 21:00
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