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Glah posted:Israel can't build a time machine, but they could withdraw all the settlements from West Bank, stop their apartheid policies, make two state solution actually possible leading to viable Palestinian state in West Bank and Gaza. After decades of violence it is doubtable that it would remove all threat from Palestinian terrorists but at least it would give peace a chance and maybe make controlling Israeli borders easier when they don't have to put resources into West Bank to keep up security apartheid machine there. Sorry that this big-rear end post was for nothing, but like I said, I wasn't asking because I had no idea how Israel should have handled Oct 7th. It's blatantly obvious that they should have done literally anything but a genocidal murder campaign before and after Oct 7th to say the least. I was just kind of wondering wtf he was going on about with "They have the right of defense and nothing more and they failed that", which is why I was asking that specific question.
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Jan 18, 2024 12:53
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Kchama posted:Sorry that this big-rear end post was for nothing, but like I said, I wasn't asking because I had no idea how Israel should have handled Oct 7th. It's blatantly obvious that they should have done literally anything but a genocidal murder campaign before and after Oct 7th to say the least. I was just kind of wondering wtf he was going on about with "They have the right of defense and nothing more and they failed that", which is why I was asking that specific question. Oh, don't be sorry, all of our posting is for nothing.
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Jan 18, 2024 12:58
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Glah posted:Oh, don't be sorry, all of our posting is for nothing. True, I just feel bad. It was a good post.
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Jan 18, 2024 13:04
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10/7 was just the perfect excuse for Israel to turn a slow-rolling genocide into a fast one where they had a reason to just go ham on all of Palestinian society The fact that in 2 months Gaza went from a place where life was bad but people weren’t starving to a place where there is very little food and water and no shelter to the point where NGOs say these are the worst conditions on the planet for people is just insane
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Jan 18, 2024 15:22
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Irony Be My Shield posted:I think it's pretty obvious what point I was making with that post when it's read in the context of the discussion happening in the thread at the time rather than randomly requoted 3 days afterwards. People were trying to downplay the 10/7 attacks (yet again) and I was explaining that it was still a very bad crime that handed Israel the right to retaliate, and the opportunity to perform horrible crimes using said retaliation as its fig leaf. Israel was the occupying power actively blockading Gaza (a de facto act of war), there was no right to retaliate as you are imagining it, and which has been made clear by their subsequent genocide. Nucleic Acids fucked around with this message at 15:32 on Jan 18, 2024 |
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Jan 18, 2024 15:26
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If Jeffery Dahmer said "a man has a right to stock his refrigerator" when people complained about the child murders, would you nod sagely or recognize it as an irrelevant deflection? vvv  (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST) Ograbme fucked around with this message at 17:27 on Jan 18, 2024 |
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Jan 18, 2024 17:15
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Ograbme posted:If Jeffery Dahmer said "a man has a right to stock his refrigerator" when people complained about the child murders, would you nod sagely or recognize it as an irrelevant deflection? It would be an irrelevant deflection mainly because Israel much better fits the role of Dahmer in this analogy.
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Jan 18, 2024 17:23
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I still think talking about the rights of nations/states, or trying to analogize them to individual people (or individual dogs), is completely unhelpful for figuring out moral entitlement or responsibility. People are morally accountable for what they do, which is why war criminals belong at the Hague to answer for their crimes, all of them. Many of them don't deserve to leave the Hague afterward, ever. The idea that civilians are just as morally accountable for crimes committed by other people, to the point of a vigilante death sentence, because they're a citizen of s criminal state or share an ethnic identity with a criminal ethnostate, is morally preposterous. It served and serves as the pretense to some of the most serious crimes against humanity in the twentieth and twenty-first centuries, including the genocide Israel is perpetrating right now. In this thread we've seen that logic propounded or defended repeatedly, sometimes in defense of Israeli genocide and sometimes in defense of the murder of civilians on October 7th or campaigns to purge Yemen of religious minorities. At one point in defense of forced expulsion campaigns against ethnic Germans living in Eastern Europe after WWII. It's a shame, I think it's the logical conclusion when you start with the idea that countries can be usefully analogized to people in terms of moral rights and responsibilities. It's sometimes appropriate to slap a man on the forehead for what comes out of his mouth - it's all one body. So why not attack a civilian for the crime of a soldier, because it's all one body politic? Civilized Fishbot fucked around with this message at 18:04 on Jan 18, 2024 |
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Jan 18, 2024 17:42
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Civilized Fishbot posted:I still think talking about the rights of nations/states, or trying to analogize them to individual people (or individual dogs), is completely unhelpful for figuring out moral entitlement or responsibility. Let's say you're a member of Hamas, having grown up orphaned (like most of them are) after the rest of your family was killed by israel during your childhood. The ethnic cleansing of your people by a western-backed fascist ethnostate that explicitly views you and yours as subhuman animals continues unabated, ignored by almost everyone except for a few pockets of regional support that are powerless to meaningfully help. You a) don't have, and will never accrue, the capacity strike at your opponent's military in a way that will significantly impair its ability to kill you and your people b) understand that your opponent has an operating doctrine that allows for the killing of their own soldiers if they are taken hostage c) have a huge number of your own people held hostage by your opponent that you want to get out d) have an opportunity to undermine the feelings of safety enjoyed by the colonists squatting on your people's land, which undermines their trust in the apartheid government how do you operate "morally" in this situation? Attempt to only kill soldiers? That does not accomplish any of your goals. Attempt to only take soldiers hostage? They don't have any qualms about letting them die (or their own civilians, apparently, but you probably didn't think they'd go that far). Targeting leadership? You can't take them out, even at range, thanks to their overwhelming technological superiority. If you don't do anything your friends and family captured by the enemy are tortured in captivity, where they're maimed and killed. The genocide continues. Decades of peaceful attempts at any sort of concession have failed. The last thing anyone tried was met with enemy snipers blowing off kids' legs because they walked too close to a fence. What do you do? Just lie down and wait for death? People find themselves in these untenable situations not from their own choices, and while they make their own choices in the moment it is always constrained by material reality. Something must be done, and if I'm someone who was living in Palestine on October 6th I'm not especially concerned about how loud the gasps of the western commentariat are when I decide to act against my oppressor. Do you think Palestinians are human? I ask you that sincerely, because if you do you ought to recognize that, given the freedom, no one would want to break out of their open-air prison to stage a desperate attack at the ethnostate trying to quietly slaughter them all. They'd want the exact same thing every single other person on the planet would and does: a nice, decent, fulfilling life amongst their loved ones, free from starvation, disease, and murder at the hands of a depraved western-backed genocidal terror state. Every death, every injury, every discomfort, pain, inconvenience, annoyance, everything -- every single thing -- is the fault of the israeli state, its demoniac nazilike ideology, and the people that have shaped and run the state under that ideology.
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Jan 18, 2024 18:33
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Civilized Fishbot posted:The idea that civilians are just as morally accountable for crimes committed by other people, to the point of a vigilante death sentence, because they're a citizen of s criminal state or share an ethnic identity with a criminal ethnostate, is morally preposterous. It served and serves as the pretense to some of the most serious crimes against humanity in the twentieth and twenty-first centuries, including the genocide Israel is perpetrating right now. Civilians living in an authoritarian state, sure, but if a civilian in a democracy voted for war crimes to occur are they not responsible for those crimes in any way? They did explicitly pledge support and potentially funding that lead to the death of many thousands of innocents. If they and others like them voted differently the crimes would not have occurred. Is there a number of conspirators where liability suddenly disappears? Like ten people working together to have one of them kill someone would all be criminally liable, but ten million people working together to kill thousands of someones is just a unknowable ethical mystery?
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Jan 18, 2024 18:41
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Staluigi posted:Gonna say here that this assumes way, way, way too much competence on the part of israel and especially likud. The attacks were entirely representative of security, policy and leadership failures of the israeli government, which are extra horrifying because they mix in with israel's other spectacular issues, like how their cruel lovely policies to the Palestinians set them up for this and that they have no loving clue how to respond to it without going overtly genocidal and smashing through gaza and again converting their society to nationalist race purifiers I’m sure there is incompetence, but reading that they received the attack plans a full year before the attack happened and ignored them even when Hamas started conducting training drills as described in those same attack plans combined with the fact Israel gave as an excuse for being unprepared that they didn’t think Hamas the capabilities even though Israel has been funding Hamas for years makes me think there is some wilful incompetence going on.
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Jan 18, 2024 18:51
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Jai Guru Dave posted:a state of peace and harmony existed between Israel and Gaza I'm just a lurker but please tell me this phrase was said in some kind of tongue-in-cheek jest.
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Jan 18, 2024 19:00
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celadon posted:Civilians living in an authoritarian state, sure, but if a civilian in a democracy voted for war crimes to occur are they not responsible for those crimes in any way? They did explicitly pledge support and potentially funding that lead to the death of many thousands of innocents. If they and others like them voted differently the crimes would not have occurred. Is there a number of conspirators where liability suddenly disappears? Like ten people working together to have one of them kill someone would all be criminally liable, but ten million people working together to kill thousands of someones is just a unknowable ethical mystery? To what extent should this responsibility be punished? I voted for Obama, he droned a wedding, should I be in prison for supporting that? Executed for the many murders I was a part of due to my taxes funding the military industrial complex?
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Jan 18, 2024 19:02
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There’s news to talk about : https://x.com/JoshuaPHilll/status/1748041495670882364?s=20 The strikes aren’t working, but they’ll continue, I guess. Want to get more context on this but it seems like Netanyahu has decided on a prix fixe menu and Apartheid is all that’s on it: https://x.com/Phil_Lewis_/status/1748032045396222267?s=20
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Jan 18, 2024 19:03
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Note Block posted:I'm just a lurker but please tell me this phrase was said in some kind of tongue-in-cheek jest. Read it again. Jai Guru Dave is saying that such a state explicitly didn't exist on October 6th. selec posted:The strikes aren’t working, but they’ll continue, I guess. Probably outside the scope of this thread but it's really remarkable the extent to which any US capacity for diplomacy has atrophied. We have one button and we don't know how to do anything other than push it. Well, maybe two buttons if you count sanctions. e:  VVV Pentecoastal Elites fucked around with this message at 19:24 on Jan 18, 2024 |
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Jan 18, 2024 19:16
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Pentecoastal Elites posted:Read it again. Jai Guru Dave is saying that such a state explicitly didn't exist on October 6th. Ah thank you! That was my bad on the reading comprehension.
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Jan 18, 2024 19:21
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celadon posted:Civilians living in an authoritarian state, sure, but if a civilian in a democracy voted for war crimes to occur are they not responsible for those crimes in any way? You've made three mistakes here: 1. What I actually said, and you quoted this so normally I'd assume you read it, was "the idea that civilians are just as morally accountable for crimes committed by other people, to the point of a vigilante death sentence..." 2. Your sorting the State of Israel into "democracy" vs "authoritarian state" is incorrect. The State of Israel suppresses nonviolent protest and dissent, even within its official borders, even by its dominant ethnic caste. This is I think an inevitable consequence of the extreme authoritarianism it exercises over Gaza and the West Bank. Just like American military equipment used overseas is eventually used by police by citizens domestically, the Israeli program of surveillance and suppression used in the occupied zones is eventually deployed against citizens in the metropole. quote:The Israel Police and the prosecutor’s office reported to the Knesset that as of Oct. 25, over 126 criminal investigations have been opened and 110 arrests have been made after individual statements made in public, on social media or in closed groups regarding the events of Oct. 7 and the ongoing war in Gaza. quote:The police announced on Thursday that they would not approve a demonstration against the war in Gaza that was scheduled to take place in Haifa on Saturday night, with dozens of organizations participating. 3. What you're espousing is the exact propaganda line with which the Israeli government justifies the murder of Palestinian men, women, and children - Hamas was democratically elected, and since then hasn't been overthrown, so every Palestinian is morally accountable for whatever Hamas does, as if they'd done it themselves. And we're seeing how that plays out in practice - a genocide. Pentecoastal Elites posted:People find themselves in these untenable situations not from their own choices, and while they make their own choices in the moment it is always constrained by material reality. Nowhere in this post do you address anything I said. I talked about the idea that civilians are morally accountable, and can justly be targeted for vigilante retribution, for the crimes of their state. What you're describing is basically the trolley problem, you could also call it consequentialist logic: "I have to engage in these horrors to prevent greater horrors." I did not describe or condemn this logic at all, because while it's ugly, it's no more ugly than the October 6 status quo for a Palestinian in Gaza or the West Bank. quote:Do you think Palestinians are human? I ask you that sincerely... I don't think your question is sincere, I think it's intended to outrage. There is nothing in the post I made which even implies the dehumanization of any Palestinian. What I said is that people do not deserve to be killed because they are citizens of a fascist state or because they have the misfortune to share an ethnic identity with a fascist state (or a non-fascist state engaged in horrible war crimes). You might disagree with me on this - many people do. It's popular to believe that every Israeli on October 7th had it coming for paying taxes to the IDF, that every resident of Hiroshima and Nagasaki earned a grotesque and painful death because they didn't stop Unit 731, that the Houthis were rightfully suspicious of the Jews and Bahais and took appropriate measures, that Japanese Americans couldn't be trusted during WWII and had to be concentrated into camps, that each and every Palestinian has earned whatever torture Israel decides - not many people believe all these things, but taken individually, each one is a relatively popular idea. These are the ideas I'm saying share a common logic, and are horrible in theory and in practice, and I can't tell if you agree or disagree because the vast majority of your response was so orthogonal to what I said. Civilized Fishbot fucked around with this message at 19:50 on Jan 18, 2024 |
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Jan 18, 2024 19:37
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Civilized Fishbot posted:Nowhere in this post do you address anything I said. I talked about the idea that civilians are morally accountable, and can justly be targeted for vigilante retribution, for the crimes of their state. For the record, I don't think that you actually believe Palestinians are not human, but I think regarding October 7th as stochastic vigilante retribution does dehumanize the Palestinians by painting their resistance as such. I think it's an awful and childish way to do any sort of real moral accounting, but I do think it is illustrative conceptualizing this as a trolley problem. Personally, I think the Palestinians' right to resist their oppression and genocide trumps israelis' right to live in comfort and safety on stolen land as the beneficiaries of an apartheid ethnostate -- but -- as in all trolley problems the argument of which switch to flip obscures the real villain: the guy who tied everyone to the tracks. In this case, obviously, israel. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jan 18, 2024 19:48
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Civilized Fishbot posted:What I said is that people do not deserve to be killed because they are citizens of a fascist state or because they have the misfortune to share an ethnic identity with a fascist state (or a non-fascist state engaged in horrible war crimes). I am saying your up-close analysis of this is useless and obfuscates the actual culpability for what happened before, during, and after October 7th. Who was responsible for Hiroshima? Who is to account for the 150,000 dead and countless permanently maimed and injured? Paul Tibbets? The actual material conditions that lead to October 7th, the policies and ideological positions and state apparatus, were orchestrated by the people responsible for October 7th. It's bad that people were killed on October 7th. Very much so. Those deaths were at the hands of the israeli state and those who have shaped and controlled it through the decades, to a far, far, far greater degree than whatever Hamas militant pulled a trigger. October 7th didn't need to happen, and would never have happened if not for israel and its project of ethnic cleansing in service of a fascistic ideology of racial superiority.
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Jan 18, 2024 20:03
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All I know is that US forces directing airstikes as part of a broader military coalition is definitely good for the region. It seems like a broader war is inevitable at this point! Maybe after that war things will shake out better for all of the dispossessed and poor in the region eh? (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jan 18, 2024 20:05
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Grip it and rip it posted:All I know is that US forces directing airstikes as part of a broader military coalition is definitely good for the region. It seems like a broader war is inevitable at this point! Maybe after that war things will shake out better for all of the dispossessed and poor in the region eh? Well, Irans's getting into ballistic missile exchanges with Pakistan, so I think spiraling into a full on regional war seems more likely every day.
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Jan 18, 2024 20:07
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Saying hamas targeted civilians is also disingenuous because even by Israel's own completely cooked numbers the vast majority of people killed were active military, not to mention the fact Israel is a forced conscript country meaning every single civilian over 18 is technically a combatant. meanwhile, Israel claims to only ever target hamas, yet has a ~97% civilian kill rate, again using their own insanely cooked numbers. now, who is the terrorist and who was performing a military action?
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Jan 18, 2024 20:11
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Pentecoastal Elites posted:For the record, I don't think that you actually believe Palestinians are not human... So your question wasn't sincere, then. I don't want to get into a whole derail here, demanding you account for your posts and explain yourself and all, but it was a deeply offensive remark that you're now admitting you made in bad faith, please cut it out going forward. quote:but I think regarding October 7th as stochastic vigilante retribution does dehumanize the Palestinians by painting their resistance as such. Sure. I don't agree with describing it that way myself, but I was responding to users justifying it as exactly that, comparing it to an abused dog fighting back against the abuser (which is literally dehumanizing). The events I compared to October 7 were Hiroshima and Nagasaki, the firebombing of Dresden, and other events where an army attacked a fascist state with functional disregard, if not active enthusiasm, toward the violent deaths of "enemy" civilians. quote:I think it's an awful and childish way to do any sort of real moral accounting, but I do think it is illustrative conceptualizing this as a trolley problem. Again, just to be clear, this is fair and not something I am trying to argue against. I am just trying to make a point about the moral desert of citizens of war-criminal states. quote:Personally, I think the Palestinians' right to resist their oppression and genocide trumps israelis' right to live in comfort and safety on stolen land as the beneficiaries of an apartheid ethnostate - The "on stolen land" thing - would their right to live be stronger if all their paperwork were in order, if they could prove they had the right property relation to their land? Thieves, and the children and grandchildren of thieves, are not less entitled to life than anyone else. If they have to die to save many more people, then the trolly problem logic is clear. And it holds the same whether they live on stolen land or other land, whether they're racist or anti-racist, whether they did their best to fix the situation or did their best to exacerbate it. So your reference to how they live on stolen land appears to serve no function except to imply their lives are worth less, or that they're less entitled to those lives - that it's not so bad if they die. In another incident of the rhetoric in this thread running parallel to Zionist propaganda, this runs parallel to the archeological-historical industry based on underlining the Jewish history of eretz Israel/Palestine in order to cast Arabs as invaders and colonists, an unnatural presence in the land, with the goal of justifying ethnic cleansing against them. As if living your whole life in a place doesn't give you the right to live there, instead you have to show that your blood came to the soil fairly and it's not interloper blood. Civilized Fishbot fucked around with this message at 20:20 on Jan 18, 2024 |
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Jan 18, 2024 20:11
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Civilized Fishbot posted:The idea that civilians are just as morally accountable for crimes committed by other people, to the point of a vigilante death sentence, because they're a citizen of s criminal state or share an ethnic identity with a criminal ethnostate, is morally preposterous. It served and serves as the pretense to some of the most serious crimes against humanity in the twentieth and twenty-first centuries, including the genocide Israel is perpetrating right now. I agree that analogizing to individuals is pointless as you say, but I'm not seeing people claiming Israeli civilians morally deserve to be killed either (I'm excluding settlers here, those aren't civilians). What people are saying is that the blame for Israeli deaths lies entirely with Israel, because Israel has chosen to attempt a genocide on a captive population, giving those people no way out. Israel's leaders aren't complete idiots, ignoring all evidence to the contrary. They're well aware that attempting to eradicate the Palestinians will result in some Palestinians resisting, and they're also aware that such resistance will sometimes affect Israeli civilians. It's completely unrealistic to expect Hamas to kill no civilians, the most well funded and trained armies in the world don't manage that. It's also completely unreasonable to expect the Palestinians to willingly lay down and die. Israel's leadership considers these deaths an acceptable cost of doing business. If they didn't, they would have released the Palestinians decades ago. Talking about whether Israeli civilians "deserved" death is a mostly pointless discussion. Whether they deserved it or not, they're dead, and it's Israel's fault.
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Jan 18, 2024 20:12
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Esran posted:I agree that analogizing to individuals is pointless as you say, but I'm not seeing people claiming Israeli civilians morally deserve to be killed either (I'm excluding settlers here, those aren't civilians). I think saying "the blame lies with Israel" is exactly analogizing to an individual, and makes it impossible to distinguish between "the blame lies with Bibi Netanyahu and his cabinet" or "the blame lies with Netanyahu and everyone who voted him in" or "the blame lies with Netanyahu and every Israeli citizen who didn't take action to stop him" or "the blame lies with every Israeli citizen, including the ones who were killed" or "the blame lies with every Israel citizen except the obviously oppressed ones, so really just the Israeli Jews" or "the blame lies with everyone who considers themselves invested in Israel as a project, whether they're citizens or not, so most Jews in the world and many non-Jews as well" etc I agree assigning desert is pointless, but so is assigning fault; ultimately the two are inseparable. I think only question that isn't pointless, literally the only one, is "what can I personally do right now to make the genocide stop" or a question derived from that line of thought. I think the answer is some combination of "go to the right protests, donate to the right orgs, call your elected representatives, take action at your workplace" etc, at least this is what I've tried to do. Civilized Fishbot fucked around with this message at 20:34 on Jan 18, 2024 |
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Jan 18, 2024 20:31
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Civilized Fishbot posted:So your question wasn't sincere, then. I don't want to get into a whole derail here, demanding you account for your posts and explain yourself and all, but it was a deeply offensive remark that you're now admitting you made in bad faith, please cut it out going forward. I don't know if you're intentionally misreading me here or what, but my jist was if you sincerely agree that Palestinians are humans, you must also agree with my further reasoning. If that didn't come across or what, I'm sorry. I thought it was clear enough Civilized Fishbot posted:The "on stolen land" thing - would their right to live be stronger if all their paperwork were in order, if they could prove they had the right property relation to their land? Thieves, and the children and grandchildren of thieves, are not less entitled to life than anyone else. The land is stolen not because it "belongs" to Palestinians in the sense that they have a more "legitimate" blood tie to a particular patch of ground, but because they're completely prohibited from accessing it. Arabs and Jews lived in the Levant for thousands of years. Many people living in the region today almost certainly have ancestries that have remained in the general area from the first homo sapiens sapiens eons before there was such a thing as an Arab or a Jew. Jewish people should live in Palestine! They should be Jewish Palestinians! The land is stolen not because there's some sort of occult blood relation to the land, but because the ethnostate has claimed it for a specific ethnicity. I've mentioned this before but discussion of this from this sort of vulgar moralistic perspective is so strange to me. No one is talking about how certain "lives are worth less", or at least I'm not. It's bad that people died and the fault of it lies with the apartheid state that created these conditions, full stop. That is the whole apartheid deal, for lack of a better term: you live here, you get the rights, you'll be fine as long as they don't break out of the concentration camp, hold on while we complete the ethnic cleansing. This is why Palestinians are getting killed. This is why israelis are getting killed. The way it stops is to end the apartheid. That's it. There's no use in condemning Hamas or trying to determine what number of Palestinian children murdered is and acceptable threshold for tut-tutting an israeli retaliation strike. The only reasonable and moral position is for the dismantling of the apartheid ethnostate.
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Jan 18, 2024 20:34
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Stringent posted:I've said it before, but I think it bears reiteration. Israel had the right to defend itself on Oct. 7th. No it didn't. It had an opportunity to.
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Jan 18, 2024 20:46
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Civilized Fishbot posted:I think saying "the blame lies with Israel" is exactly analogizing to an individual, and makes it impossible to distinguish between "the blame lies with Bibi Netanyahu and his cabinet" or "the blame lies with Netanyahu and everyone who voted him in" or "the blame lies with Netanyahu and every Israeli citizen who didn't take action to stop him" or "the blame lies with every Israeli citizen, including the ones who were killed" or "the blame lies with every Israel citizen except the obviously oppressed ones, so really just the Israeli Jews" or "the blame lies with everyone who considers themselves invested in Israel as a project, whether they're citizens or not, so most Jews in the world and many non-Jews as well" etc Okay, then let me clarify what I meant. I meant that the blame lies with Israel's current and past governments, and all the people who decided a fascist ethnostate was a cool project. I'm responding to your assertion that people in this thread are arguing "in defense of the murder of civilians on October 7th" on the grounds that those civilians were deserving of death in some personal moral sense, and that " It's popular to believe that every Israeli on October 7th had it coming for paying taxes to the IDF". I don't think people are arguing that.
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Jan 18, 2024 21:09
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celadon posted:Civilians living in an authoritarian state, sure, but if a civilian in a democracy voted for war crimes to occur are they not responsible for those crimes in any way? They did explicitly pledge support and potentially funding that lead to the death of many thousands of innocents. If they and others like them voted differently the crimes would not have occurred. Is there a number of conspirators where liability suddenly disappears? Like ten people working together to have one of them kill someone would all be criminally liable, but ten million people working together to kill thousands of someones is just a unknowable ethical mystery? Edit vvvvvv whoops, on first read it looked like it was justifying military action against hamas supporters because they voted for them. I'll take the L on that and be the rear end in a top hat. DeathSandwich fucked around with this message at 21:20 on Jan 18, 2024 |
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Jan 18, 2024 21:12
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DeathSandwich posted:You understand that the last time elections were held in Gaza was almost 18 years ago right? And that more than half of the population today couldn't participate in it on account of being either 1) children at the time or 2) not even born yet. To say "they voted for this" is kind of a sick farce. I think celadon was talking about israel
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Jan 18, 2024 21:15
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also lets not forget that Hamas ran for office as moderates while Israeli politicians run for office on "kill 'em all!" platforms
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Jan 18, 2024 21:46
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woops wrong tab
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Jan 18, 2024 21:53
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https://twitter.com/ryangrim/status/1748043285782753562 Biden says that the strikes aren’t going to make the Houthis stop but he’s gonna keep the strikes going
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Jan 18, 2024 21:53
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Note Block posted:Ah thank you! That was my bad on the reading comprehension. On the other hand, I’m pretentious and unfunny, so let’s agree to share the blame
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Jan 18, 2024 21:56
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https://twitter.com/CNN/status/1748074595792429224?t=4HmnYEH9lw9tzPCFQ6h1ng&s=19 This seems like a really weird post hoc justification to be honest and this quote seems like total bullshit: “The hostage identification process, conducted at a secure and alternative location, ensures optimal professional conditions and respect for the deceased,” an IDF spokesperson told CNN, adding that bodies that are determined not be those of hostages are “returned with dignity and respect.”
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Jan 18, 2024 22:33
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theCalamity posted:https://twitter.com/ryangrim/status/1748043285782753562 Are you under the impression that Biden has a magical spell that he can employ to stop piracy? The whole point of the coalition is to degrade their capabilities and make the cost/benefit ratio of engaging in these kinds of actions skew. Lobbing a couple dozen cruise missiles is just part of justifying the current US military budget. We will likely see US action in the region dramatically ramp up as broader conflicts kick off. The whole thing is a loving shitshow
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Jan 18, 2024 22:35
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I have a question - there are multiple instances in the west (and probably elsewhere) where a revolutionary/paramilitary group has acted as the de-facto or acknowledged military wing of a political party. Obvious examples of this being Sinn Fein/IRA and HB/ETA on the left, or the NSDAP/Brownshirts and PNF/Blackshirts on the right. The media often talks about the "political wing" of Hamas - is there any specific reason why Hamas's political and paramilitary structures are under the same umbrella, or is this just not historically unusual?
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Jan 18, 2024 22:44
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Feels Villeneuve posted:I have a question - there are multiple instances in the west (and probably elsewhere) where a revolutionary/paramilitary group has acted as the de-facto or acknowledged military wing of a political party. Obvious examples of this being Sinn Fein/IRA and HB/ETA on the left, or the NSDAP/Brownshirts and PNF/Blackshirts on the right. It's because of racism, OP. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jan 18, 2024 22:54
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The magical spell would be stopping the genocide by stopping all military aid to israel and applying sanctions, military intervention if necessary. The strikes on Yemen are reckless and counterproductive, insurance companies are now refusing to insure US and UK ships which was the opposite of the supposed purpose. The US has absolutely no leverage over Yemen, they've already been striking and starving them for years and it's only made them stronger. The US is desperately flailing and every other country can see it.
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Jan 18, 2024 22:58
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rscott posted:https://twitter.com/CNN/status/1748074595792429224?t=4HmnYEH9lw9tzPCFQ6h1ng&s=19 This sank my heart down. How debased from morality do you have to be to dig up the dead and remove them. Utterly vile and disgusting. Israel must cease.
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Jan 18, 2024 23:07
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