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selec posted:https://x.com/mj_lee/status/1748475734568444173?s=20 https://twitter.com/netanyahu/status/1748764135716749568?t=s-CWyO0wy1FHb83TFvTD6g&s=19 Just comical at this point, I'm sure this will be explained away too!
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Jan 20, 2024 22:33
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Your Brain on Hugs posted:It is absolutely untrue that there is nothing Biden could do to stop this genocide if he wanted to. He is the commander in chief of the most expensive military on the planet. He could blockade weapons and supplies from entering Israel, set a no fly zone over Gaza, use tactical strikes to reduce their air capability. These would be absolute last resort actions, there are a thousand more things he could use the power of the executive to do. The fact that they would have political consequences for him does not enter into the moral judgement, and to act otherwise is to try and absolve him of his moral responsibility to end a genocide. To be clear, Biden is completely culpable for this and absolutely has the power to end it. He could do these things in the sense that Trump could have bombed immigrant caravans going through Mexico. In reality, the armed forces would refuse and he would be immediately impeached and removed by an overwhelming majority.
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Jan 20, 2024 22:34
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He could start with a million smaller things, it's not as if any president before him has had an issue with telling Israel what the deal is. The point is that there is no defending or excusing his actions based on the political reality, he is 100 percent culpable for the genocide. Anyone who still supports him can make that choice, but they are also choosing to support a genocide. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jan 20, 2024 23:19
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Biden wants the Palestinians killed and cleansed. He doesn’t need to be listened to when you can just look at his actions instead. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jan 20, 2024 23:38
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Honestly, in my opinion, I don't think Israel would listen to anyone. The difference between the past and now is an overton window or two away. If anyone knows more about Israeli nationalism during Reagan or Bush than I do, feel free to correct, but from what I've generally read in the media is that Israeli politics are hard right nationalism more so than they've ever been. It would take more than "stop shipping shells to Israel" to stop them at this point. Bibi's rhetoric has made it clear that he doesn't give a poo poo who tells him to stop (the UN, etc etc), he's not going to stop until he's done. Israel doesn't need materiel support to continue this. The lovely "realpolitik" of the situation, imo, is that Biden could end all aid and nothing would end, and he'd take a domestic political hit. Or he could continue materiel support, save face at home, and nothing would end. I still wish he'd end it.
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Jan 20, 2024 23:47
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ummel posted:Honestly, in my opinion, I don't think Israel would listen to anyone. The difference between the past and now is an overton window or two away. If anyone knows more about Israeli nationalism during Reagan or Bush than I do, feel free to correct, but from what I've generally read in the media is that Israeli politics are hard right nationalism more so than they've ever been. It would take more than "stop shipping shells to Israel" to stop them at this point. Bibi's rhetoric has made it clear that he doesn't give a poo poo who tells him to stop (the UN, etc etc), he's not going to stop until he's done. Israel doesn't need materiel support to continue this. It might not work immediately, but this war is expensive, the Israeli economy is already pretty severely impacted by it, and it seems likely that a lack of US aid would force Netanyahu to choose between giving handouts to the settler welfare funds (e.g. all that money he uses to pay for schools that don't teach... math or science or anything useful) and continuing the war. Subtract our aid to Israel from their budget and they have hard choices to make, which would at the very least make it more likely that elections are triggered.
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Jan 21, 2024 00:00
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Couldn't Biden instruct the FBI to actually investigate the Israeli theft of nuclear weapon technology and materials from the US? If memory serves there's a US law that forbids any kind of aid to countries that have pilfered nuclear weapon technology.
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Jan 21, 2024 00:53
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ummel posted:The lovely "realpolitik" of the situation, imo, is that Biden could end all aid and nothing would end, and he'd take a domestic political hit. Or he could continue materiel support, save face at home, and nothing would end. I still wish he'd end it. No, that's not true at all. Cutting off aid would do exactly that - it would end their source of weapons and money. It might not stop their desire to kill all the Palestinians, but it sure would make them a lot less effective at it. Kind of like gun control actually. Gun control wouldn't prevent every single murder, but it would definitely make them less easy to do. In both cases the argument of futility is not very convincing.
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Jan 21, 2024 01:02
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Theres a reason why Israel pulled out of North Gaza, and it wasn't because they won. Like when Covid was "over" they needed the works to go back to work.
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Jan 21, 2024 01:09
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ummel posted:The lovely "realpolitik" of the situation, imo, is that Biden could end all aid and nothing would end, and he'd take a domestic political hit. Or he could continue materiel support, save face at home, and nothing would end. I still wish he'd end it. Odd that he is taking a political hit by supporting genocide and expanding war, instead of taking a hit and stopping both of those actions.
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Jan 21, 2024 01:39
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Your Brain on Hugs posted:He could start with a million smaller things, it's not as if any president before him has had an issue with telling Israel what the deal is. The point is that there is no defending or excusing his actions based on the political reality, he is 100 percent culpable for the genocide. Anyone who still supports him can make that choice, but they are also choosing to support a genocide. As a reminder, anyone who has a chance of becoming the president wouldn’t prevent the genocide. And if you’re against the genocide, abstaining from voting will most likely help a candidate who would cheer on a faster genocide Also, as another reminder, support for a candidate is not an endorsement of every political view of said candidate (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST) Kalit fucked around with this message at 03:14 on Jan 21, 2024 |
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Jan 21, 2024 03:11
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also, as a reminder, you don't have to vote for someone who is abetting loving genocide (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jan 21, 2024 03:19
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Kalit posted:As a reminder, anyone who has a chance of becoming the president wouldn’t prevent the genocide. And if you’re against the genocide, abstaining from voting will most likely help a candidate who would cheer on a faster genocide If your only option is to vote between 2 Hitlers, the course of action is not to vote for one of the Hitlers and encourage everyone else to do the same, it is to start trying to organise against your political system. Also, if your country is currently deciding between 2 Hitlers to run it, perhaps it has absolutely no business being in control of anything, and no one should listen to anything it has to say on any foreign policy issue. The moral thing to do would be to support Yemen in their fight against the US at this point, and advocate for US leaders prosecution in the international criminal court. I understand it can be hard to accept this if you live in the US and materially benefit from its crimes, but many before you have had to face this as well. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jan 21, 2024 03:38
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Kalit posted:
Reducing engaging in genocide to a political view is reprehensible.
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Jan 21, 2024 03:39
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Your Brain on Hugs posted:If your only option is to vote between 2 Hitlers, the course of action is not to vote for one of the Hitlers and encourage everyone else to do the same, it is to start trying to organise against your political system. If you think Biden is similar to Hitler, you should probably take a step back and re-examine your views. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jan 21, 2024 03:53
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Kalit posted:If you think Biden is similar to Hitler, you should probably take a step back and re-examine your views. Well I never, comparing someone engaged in support of genocide to Hitler? Has Godwin's Law finally gone too far? (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jan 21, 2024 03:55
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Kalit posted:If you think Biden is similar to Hitler, you should probably take a step back and re-examine your views. He's enthusiastically supporting a genocide. That's at least Hitler adjacent. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jan 21, 2024 03:56
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Kalit posted:If you think Biden is similar to Hitler, you should probably take a step back and re-examine your views. Hyperbole to some degree, but the fact remains he is giving full material support to a genocide. The point still stands.
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Jan 21, 2024 03:59
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Not that measuring milli-Hitlers is productive, but logically if we are talking about the genocide of Palestinians the Hitler is Netanyahu, making Biden a Chamberlain or something - the crime is failing to intervene when it could be stopped, not committing it himself Edit: or if you feel it isn't adequately acerbic then call him Vichy or something, there's plenty of ways to call someone a bad person without Godwinning all over the place.
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Jan 21, 2024 04:02
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Kalit posted:As a reminder, anyone who has a chance of becoming the president wouldn’t prevent the genocide. And if you’re against the genocide, abstaining from voting will most likely help a candidate who would cheer on a faster genocide if we are to analyze voting on the president in a strictly utilitarian sense, we arrive at the conclusion that voting for the lesser of two evils has more utility, but it is one of a near-imperceptible amount due to the actual influence of a single vote in a national election. You could make a decent argument that not voting is the correct utilitarian choice because you would be inconvenienced in the process of voting, or stressed by the choice! If we aren't using utility as the means by which we make our moral decisions, then the vile degree to which both candidates support flagrant genocide seems to be a valid argument for abstaining from the election (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jan 21, 2024 04:03
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Fister Roboto posted:He's enthusiastically supporting a genocide. That's at least Hitler adjacent. It’s hard to find an exact example because there wasn’t a super power providing the diplomatic cover, the funding, and the weapons for Hitler’s genocide.
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Jan 21, 2024 04:04
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BougieBitch posted:Not that measuring milli-Hitlers is productive, but logically if we are talking about the genocide of Palestinians the Hitler is Netanyahu, making Biden a Chamberlain or something - the crime is failing to intervene when it could be stopped, not committing it himself Chamberlain didn't intervene because he couldn't. Britain wasn't ready for another war with Germany. The entire point of 'peace in our time' was not to avoid a war, rather that having realised one was inevitable they desperately needed to buy time to prepare. Because Britain had been licking its wounds and abiding by treaties while Germany had a years long headstart.
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Jan 21, 2024 05:21
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Kalit posted:If you think Biden is similar to Hitler, you should probably take a step back and re-examine your views. Biden went around congress to give Israel more arms to commit genocide. He's not just supportive of the genocide of Palestine, he is materially complicit. In a just world he'd be put to trial at the Hague.
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Jan 21, 2024 05:32
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https://x.com/mondoweiss/status/1748858028403617979?s=46&t=ARI_L-v32Oind1-d9B3a3Q Christ on a bike.
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Jan 21, 2024 07:58
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BougieBitch posted:Not that measuring milli-Hitlers is productive, but logically if we are talking about the genocide of Palestinians the Hitler is Netanyahu, making Biden a Chamberlain or something - the crime is failing to intervene when it could be stopped, not committing it himself I don't think Chamberlain is a good comparison, Biden is not just failing to intervene, he's actively and materially supporting the genocide. So the crime is committing genocide by proxy. Kalit posted:As a reminder, anyone who has a chance of becoming the president wouldn’t prevent the genocide. And if you’re against the genocide, abstaining from voting will most likely help a candidate who would cheer on a faster genocide Going back to VBNMW is disgusting in the context of Biden helping to do a genocide. You're saying there's no low you will not allow your team to stoop to, as long as the other team is marginally worse. You're handing the party your permission to become the worst possible version of themselves, to the point of them supporting a genocide. Why would a candidate have the slightest concern for your moral qualms? You're openly saying you'll ignore those qualms and support them anyway. If a Russian says they support Putin, will you also wring your hands and say "Oh, that's okay. Support for a candidate is not an endorsement of every political view of said candidate"? Esran fucked around with this message at 11:41 on Jan 21, 2024 |
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Jan 21, 2024 11:35
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Your Brain on Hugs posted:If your only option is to vote between 2 Hitlers, the course of action is not to vote for one of the Hitlers ... I think a principled objection to supporting Hitler should also include a principled objection to a state that violently represses and expels religious minorities, and which flagrantly abuses human rights in its territories. quote:As Human Rights Watch has documented, four out of five of Taizz’s water basins are under Houthi control or on the frontlines of the conflict, making them ultimately inaccessible to the Taizz residents. The Houthis control two of the basins, and they have stopped water from flowing into government-controlled Taizz city, although they know the city’s residents rely on this water. quote:The recent events are part of what the United Nations expert on freedom of religion or belief, Ahmed Shaheed, previously described as a “persistent pattern of persecution” of the Baha’is by the Houthis. Abdel Malek Al-Houthi, the leader of the Houthi movement, gave a speech in 2018 in which he called Baha’is “infidels,” and “urged Yemenis to defend their country from the Baha’is and members of other religious minorities.” quote:Houthi forces continue to use anti-personnel landmines in violation of the 1997 Convention on the Prohibition of the Use, Stockpiling, Production and Transfer of Anti-Personnel Mines and on their Destruction, to which Yemen is a party. Houthi forces’ use of mines in areas containing objects critical for survival, including farmland, water sources, and water infrastructure, has exacerbated the humanitarian crisis and contributed to the starvation of civilians, according to Mwatana for Human Rights, an independent Yemeni organization, and Global Rights Compliance. Houthi forces have not shared any maps with mine removal authorities, violating their obligations under the Mine Convention. By all means, gently caress Hitler, but I don't see any logic that can enable "I would never support Hitler, but I support the curse-the Jews army that kills civilians by mass water deprivation, disappears religious minorities, and enforces the subjugation of women." You could say "yeah I support Yemen/Ansar Allah/the Houthis in the sense that all their enemies are even worse." It's usually easy to find equally or more horrifying abuses conducted by the official Yemeni government/rump state, by Saudi Arabia, by Israel, or by the US. But you are explicitly arguing against that kind of support, saying it's ridiculous to choose "between 2 Hitlers." Civilized Fishbot fucked around with this message at 17:36 on Jan 21, 2024 |
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Jan 21, 2024 16:50
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If you look up the context of the Houthi slogan, on the Houthis wiki pages, their leaders have claimed that the slogan is intended to refer to the governments of Israel and the United States and not Jews or Americans generally. Regardless if you buy that or not, we just got done backing a genocide carried out against them so I expect their rhetoric to be extreme. Jews after the holocaust attempt to plan and said much worse against the Germans and I think it’s understandable. At the end of the day they are at least doing something to attempt to stop a genocide and we are abetting it. Also, crocodile tears about women or slavery is Yemen from Americans is interesting indeed given on the low estimate the US 400k modern slaves to the 60k in Yemen, and on high estimates has 1 million, which puts it in more slaves per capita than Yemen even before you count prison labor we have vastly more slaves per capita, which directly descended from legalized slavery or the quasi legality of using offshore slavery by US companies. Again, the country that is actually doing more slavery is claiming the moral high ground to justify violence, and I think this is racist and vile. https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2018/jul/19/us-modern-slavery-report-global-slavery-index https://www.vera.org/news/slavery-is-still-legal-for-two-million-people-in-the-u-s
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Jan 21, 2024 18:02
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SMEGMA_MAIL posted:Also, crocodile tears about women or slavery is Yemen from Americans is interesting indeed given on the low estimate the US 400k modern slaves to the 60k in Yemen, and on high estimates has 1 million, which puts it in more slaves per capita than Yemen... This is exactly the "I support Hitler over double-Hitler" logic that user "Your Brain on Hugs" was declaiming against. If you're saying "I can't bring myself to support Joe Biden because I'm disgusted by his support for mass human rights abuses - even if his opponent is even more evil, I refuse to choose one Hitler over another" then I don't see how that logic enables supporting a state that enforces the humiliation of women, imprisons and disappears religious minorities, and blockades water and aid from civilians. Even if they're the lesser evil, the whole point of the post was that the lesser evil's evil can be too much to accept.
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Jan 21, 2024 18:18
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I’m saying bringing this up in order to justify why the US should bomb the Houthis or why their actions in regards to Israel specifically are not justified on those grounds while US actions are justified, are irrelevant to this discussion. And it’s really hard to believe people suddenly deciding “all sides are bad” and suddenly taking a stand over issues they previously overlooked when their side was doing it and continues to do it. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jan 21, 2024 18:31
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Civilized Fishbot posted:This is exactly the "I support Hitler over double-Hitler" logic that user "Your Brain on Hugs" was declaiming against. You're right, I won't be voting for the Houthis either. Seriously though, nobody here is "supporting" the Houthis in any material way. It's all just words on a niche internet forum. Acknowledging that they're doing the right thing by disrupting trade to try to stop a genocide doesn't mean you endorse literally everything else that they do.
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Jan 21, 2024 18:33
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At some point you do need to be pragmatic and recognize there is some evil you'll accept to reach your goals.
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Jan 21, 2024 18:39
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SMEGMA_MAIL posted:I’m saying bringing this up in order to justify why the US should bomb the Houthis or why their actions in regards to Israel specifically are not justified on those grounds while US actions are justified, are irrelevant to this discussion. That's not why I brought up anything about the Houthis. You're not responding to what I'm actually saying - that "we should not support the lesser evil when their evil is too profound" is incompatible with "we should support a state that humiliates women, imprisons and exiles religious minorities, and engages in constant war crimes including depriving civilians of water to thirst them into surrender, because they're the lesser evil." Civilized Fishbot fucked around with this message at 18:51 on Jan 21, 2024 |
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Jan 21, 2024 18:47
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Civilized Fishbot posted:That's not why I brought up anything about the Houthis. Nobody is “supporting” the Houthis as a good regime. We support actions taken to stop genocide. I could swear this is a copy paste find and replace Taliban>Houthi from the early 00’s whenever someone brought up opposition to the invasion of Afghanistan. I have a hard time believing you are remotely consistent or principled about this because everything you’re saying about the Houthi’s is more true for the US, Israel, and the Gulf states but I don’t think you’d go to the mat on why they can never be supported regardless of context. Butter Activities fucked around with this message at 19:03 on Jan 21, 2024 |
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Jan 21, 2024 18:53
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SMEGMA_MAIL posted:Nobody is “supporting” the Houthis. We support actions taken to stop genocide. Again, I'm responding to a post specifically saying "I refuse to support Joe Biden in his campaign against Donald Trump because they're both Hitler, we must support the Houthis in their campaign against the US" Your Brain on Hugs posted:If your only option is to vote between 2 Hitlers, the course of action is not to vote for one of the Hitlers and encourage everyone else to do the same, it is to start trying to organise against your political system. SMEGMA_MAIL posted:I have a hard time believing you are remotely consistent or principled about this because everything you’re saying about the Houthi’s is more true for the US, Israel, and the Gulf states but I don’t think you’d go to the mat on why they can never be supported regardless of context. I'm not the one saying "they can never be supported." I'm responding to the inconsistency in someone else making an argument like that. You keep disagreeing with stuff I haven't said and don't believe. Civilized Fishbot fucked around with this message at 19:14 on Jan 21, 2024 |
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Jan 21, 2024 19:05
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Civilized Fishbot posted:Again, I'm responding to a post specifically saying "I refuse to support Joe Biden in his campaign against Donald Trump because they're both Hitler, we must support the Houthis in their campaign against the US" I don't see the contradiction. You've got two guys who are/were president of the worlds foremost imperial power, and a small country with a group locked in a civil war who haven't been letting water reach the side controlled by the US recognized government. Your equating the lesser evil between the original argument of two Hitlers, with Hitler and Hitler's enemy who has some unpaid parking fines.
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Jan 21, 2024 19:27
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Civilized Fishbot posted:I think a principled objection to supporting Hitler should also include a principled objection to a state that violently represses and expels religious minorities, and which flagrantly abuses human rights in its territories. That is either whataboutism or a weird equivocation between two arguments that aren't really similar at all. This argument is saying it is inconsistent to condemn Hitler for eliminating undesirables, when the British Empire also did crimes against humanity. Can't support the Americans either, on account of their crimes against black people and Native Americans. I'm sure we can point to some massacre the Soviet Union did before WW2 that disqualifies them as well. We should just roundly condemn everyone. You seem to agree that this is not a reasonable way to view the world. That's not what YBoH is arguing, though. They're saying that if your political system continually presents you with a choice between two Hitlers, that political system is broken and must be replaced, so instead of spending your effort electing either Hitler, you should "start trying to organise against your political system.". This is in response to a poster who saw people were complaining about Biden's support for a genocide, and decided that "Hey guys, just remember, Trump would do the genocide slightly faster, so this is no excuse not to continue to support Biden. Remember to Vote!" was the right response. Do you really not see how these are not equivalent at all? It is completely logically consistent to support bad people doing a good thing and also think it's idiotic to badger people to support the political career of Hitler, simply because the managed democracy they live in only allows for selecting different brands of Hitler. I'd also point out that if your political strategy is to always support Lesser Hitler, your political beliefs can be entirely ignored by the political class. Why would anyone bother to try to appeal to you, your support is unconditional. We're seeing a similar dynamic between Israel and the US: Why would Israel care what the US has to say, the US has already made clear that there is nothing Israel can do that will make the US stop the flow of money and weapons.
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Jan 21, 2024 19:29
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It's not an inconsistent position if you want to end the genocide. If Donald Trump released a statement tomorrow promising that he'd do everything in his power to end the genocide in Gaza I'd vote for him in November. As it stands now both Joe Biden and Donald Trump are pro-israel and therefore pro-genocide, so I have no particular desire to vote for either. I don't have to choose between the "two hitlers", and not doing so does, in fact, constitute a conscious and intentional political choice. When presented with a choice between two genocidaires the correct option is to try and buck the system that keeps giving you guys who love genocide. I can, however, support (whatever this means. Make posts?) the Houthis in their campaign to try to stop the genocide via economic sabotage and also their struggle against the US and their imperial allies in the region. I can do this without co-signing everything they do, which is a strange thing to assume of anyone here. I don't really get the objection, honestly. The Houthis are objectively pretty bad in other things therefore you must condemn them entirely and can't even acknowledge they might do anything good or worthwhile? Once again I really don't understand the use, or even the point, about this sort of moralistic accountancy. What is it for? What point is it supposed to prove? I support neither (realistic) American presidential candidate on the grounds that they are equally unlikely to do anything to stop the genocide of Palestinians and also support the Houthis in their attempts to stop said genocide is not an inconsistent position. It's the only really consistent moral position if you think stopping the genocide is of critical importance.
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Jan 21, 2024 19:37
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Death to Israel
Gumball Gumption fucked around with this message at 20:26 on May 14, 2024 |
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Jan 21, 2024 19:40
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Reality check: If Donald Trump did in fact release a statement tomorrow that he was going to end the genocide and anyone actually believed him, they'd be an idiot. He spent the whole election cycle up to 2016 making self-contradictory claims about his future foreign policy ranging from "we're going to bomb all the brown people" to "no more foreign adventures" so that his supporters could all pretend to themselves that he was only lying to people who disagreed with them. If you want to know his likely behaviour in 2024, look at his behaviour in 2016-2020. (That said I agree he probably wouldn't be much worse than Biden on this specific issue.)
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Jan 21, 2024 19:55
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I think the point of these posts wasn't that people are waiting for Donald the Dove to appear on the ballot. It was to point out how absolutely dogshit both parties are on this issue, so even making the right noises would be an improvement. Esran fucked around with this message at 20:18 on Jan 21, 2024 |
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Jan 21, 2024 20:02
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