|
PurpleXVI posted:Ah, yes, good thing we dodged anything like numbers-based success metrics in our successful capitalist society that lead to perverted incentives that undermine the entire enterprise they're supposed to be supporting... oh wait, what's that... oh no... Less explicitly economic, but I liked this paper about quantification distorting values. ”Abstract” posted:Value capture occurs when an agent enters a social environment which presents external expressions of value — which are often simplified, standardized, and quantified — and those external versions come to dominate our reasoning and motivations. Examples include becoming motivated by Twitter Likes and Retweets, citation rates, ranked lists of best schools, and Grade Point Averages. We are vulnerable to value capture because of the competitive advantage that such pre-packaged value expressions have in our reasoning and our communications. But when we internalize such metrics, we damage our own autonomy. In value capture, we outsource the process of deliberating on our values. And that outsourcing cuts off one of the key benefits of personal deliberation. When we tailor our values to ourselves, we can fine-tune them to fit our own particular psychology and place in the world. But in value capture, we buy our values off the rack.
|
#
?
Jan 20, 2024 20:54
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 6, 2024 23:49 |
|
|
Subjunctive posted:Less explicitly economic, but I liked this paper about quantification distorting values. That's just Goodhart's Law with a whole lot of extra words stapled on.
|
|
#
?
Jan 20, 2024 21:12
|
|
|
PurpleXVI posted:Ah, yes, good thing we dodged anything like numbers-based success metrics in our successful capitalist society that lead to perverted incentives that undermine the entire enterprise they're supposed to be supporting... oh wait, what's that... oh no... I recently learned of the existence of turret deck freighters, which were otherwise ordinary cargo steamers that had more tumblehome than normal, making them look like turret ironclads. There was no nautical value in building them this way, but the way canal fees were totaled meant that the ratios of usable volume caused that turret deckers to get charged less per ton.
|
|
#
?
Jan 20, 2024 21:40
|
|
|
PurpleXVI posted:Ah, yes, good thing we dodged anything like numbers-based success metrics in our successful capitalist society that lead to perverted incentives that undermine the entire enterprise they're supposed to be supporting... oh wait, what's that... oh no...
|
|
#
?
Jan 20, 2024 21:59
|
|
|
Cugel the Clever posted:While I certainly agree that the Western economic systems that many here are most intimately familiar with abound in inefficiencies and inequities that must be corrected, it's silly to look at the supply chain crisis caused by a global pandemic and think that these failures in any way approach the dire, decades-long doldrums of a command economy which failed to center the provision of basic goods to its populace as its key success metric. And I say that as someone who's very much in favor of a theoretical command economy done right! Oh, no, I absolutely agree, the USSR completely hosed it up. I just thought it was funny mentioning that as a critical failing of why the USSR economy couldn't keep up with free market economies, and then watching free market economies re-invent that fuckup, but with more highly-priced consultants to spread it far and wide. 
|
|
#
?
Jan 20, 2024 22:05
|
|
|
Lemniscate Blue posted:That's just Goodhart's Law with a whole lot of extra words stapled on. I don’t think it’s really saying the same thing, but I’m only halfway through the paper so maybe that’s where it’s headed.
|
|
#
?
Jan 20, 2024 22:44
|
|
|
It seems like a longwinded way of saying "Q: Is it okay to show my teenager an R rated movie?" "A: Depends on the teen and the movie, the MPAA letter isn't the only thing you should pay attention to."
|
|
#
?
Jan 20, 2024 22:49
|
|
|
bird food bathtub posted:Like, luxury heated seats that talks to you before giving a complimentary butthole squirt and massage when you're done, or hole-in-the-ground-with-two-footpads? Middle way. Heated/Lighted seats, complimentary butthole (or other) heated squirts with multiple spray and pressure patterns.
|
|
#
?
Jan 21, 2024 00:40
|
|
|
Subjunctive posted:I don’t think it’s really saying the same thing, but I’m only halfway through the paper so maybe that’s where it’s headed. Yeah, this looks like a dispute on how exactly derived numerical ratings can be inaccurate. Goodhart's Law covers how nefarious actors will alter the input data to get an end result. Example aggregate review sites being manipulated by access bribing the reviewers for good reviews or allowing more obscure and critical reviewers to allow a lower score. While the theory of value capture is about how that same derived numerical rating doesn't represent an individual's values because it flattens them to a collective standard . Someone choosing a collage to go to would value the weather at that site more than the rating values it if they have a heavy aversion to Hot/Cold/Wet weather. One's more about an accurate rating being gamed to become inaccurate over time and the other is how the rating on an individual level can be inaccurate even if it's still accurate for the general populous. At least that's my read of it. Didn't go too in depth on the actual papers
|
|
#
?
Jan 21, 2024 02:03
|
|
|
Creating a metric forces the system to conform to the metric, especially in the easiest way or through the path of least resistance, which is usually not the intended or desired route. Metrics also have to be something that can be measured, with easier/cheaper ones moving to the top even though they may be of minor importance. Tyranny of Metrics by Jerry Muller Out of the Crisis by Deming Systems Thinking by Meadows Human Error by James Reason Noise by Kahneman Human Side of Enterprise by McGregor Are all good starting points. Edit: Bandwidth of Perceptual Experience by Cohen is absolutely necessary as well. lightpole fucked around with this message at 02:25 on Jan 21, 2024 |
|
#
?
Jan 21, 2024 02:17
|
|
|
lightpole posted:Creating a metric forces the system to conform to the metric, especially in the easiest way or through the path of least resistance, which is usually not the intended or desired route. Metrics also have to be something that can be measured, with easier/cheaper ones moving to the top even though they may be of minor importance. This also feels a lot like the discussion of how we grade students. When you have a national standard, you end up teaching what will get the best grades on that, instead of whatever lofty goals the different subjects and the school system in general supposedly has.
|
|
#
?
Jan 21, 2024 04:41
|
|
|
You can use it linearly, which is why Meadows saw it as system thinking. NASA went with engineering systems to solve disasters launching rockets. Even with a strictly delineated process they still manage to have failures like the Columbia disaster so obviously the system they created was flawed. It didn't account for human/culture factors in their process because they are extremely difficult to measure. lightpole fucked around with this message at 05:17 on Jan 21, 2024 |
|
#
?
Jan 21, 2024 05:14
|
|
|
There are definitely flaws in how metrics are selected and in the perverse incentives they create, but I'm skeptical of the response to this being that such metrics should be done away with entirely, in favor of  . The problem with the metric of success in the hypothetical Soviet example wasn't that it attempted to impose a quantifiable measure of success, but that the failures of the assessors empowered bad actors who were obviously manipulating the system and failed to address the very serious issues that contributed to the failure. I can envision reforms which would improve the institutional culture which imposes and assesses the metric, but I can't envision what a metric-less system looks like. It seems like one in which bad actors would be even more empowered to get by on connections, charisma, and bribery.
|
|
#
?
Jan 21, 2024 06:05
|
|
|
if you want people to wear 17 pieces of flair, mandate 17 pieces of flair. edit: if you want people to wear 17 pieces of flair because their invested in their job, LOL.
|
|
#
?
Jan 21, 2024 06:31
|
|
|
Cugel the Clever posted:There are definitely flaws in how metrics are selected and in the perverse incentives they create, but I'm skeptical of the response to this being that such metrics should be done away with entirely, in favor of Its not do away with metrics. Its be careful what you choose to measure, how you use it and present it because the system will react to that measurement.
|
|
#
?
Jan 21, 2024 07:09
|
|
|
Cugel the Clever posted:The problem with the metric of success in the hypothetical Soviet example wasn't that it attempted to impose a quantifiable measure of success, but that the failures of the assessors empowered bad actors who were obviously manipulating the system and failed to address the very serious issues that contributed to the failure. It's really an issue of leadership/management laziness. "We don't want to actually look at each situation individually and judge it, we're just going to automate it by saying anyone who meets these metrics gets the reward, and anyone who does not gets the lash." Metrics should never lead to some given outcome by default(i.e. you hit this number, you get more budget, you don't hit it, you lose budget), they should only ever be used by upper management to have an idea of where they need to look closer at things and take a decision/learn something("this guy has big metrics, see what he's doing right. that guy has low metrics, see what's going wrong."). Because if the metrics are just a deterministic machine, which they usually are, because of laziness and MBA's, then you'll always get bad actors hijacking them.
|
|
#
?
Jan 21, 2024 09:16
|
|
|
A.o.D. posted:It was a running joke I know, I played from 2006-2015! A.o.D. posted:Were you starved for a Ironically the opposite, I was curious what the actual figure was and figured the easiest way to do that was post someone else's lazy guess and wait for someone else to well-actually me. No offense intended, my esteemed goodposter.
|
|
#
?
Jan 21, 2024 09:38
|
|
moment today?
|
Kesper North posted:I know, I played from 2006-2015! <looks for terrible pun in post, notes lack thereof> Who are you, and what have you done with Kesper?
|
|
#
?
Jan 21, 2024 09:59
|
|
|
No the problem with Central Planning Economic models is that they try to set metrics of success. Even if the system works perfectly (it won't), the planners can't predict Demand. Nobody can. You can cheat a bit by controlling demand (with guns) but you can't change the fact that the entire supply chain is working to a number set in the annual planning cycle that may or may not bear any relation to reality. Market based systems are still bad at predicting demand but there's at least constant dynamic pressure not to over or under produce. Neither system can handle having a major core input supplier turn off the taps for a few years. e: it's also not a bad actor problem. In a Central Planning model you can't escape your metrics or treat them as just a guideline because everyone else up and down the supply chain is working to a plan that assumes you will hit your metrics. If you fail to hit your metrics then it isn't just that your factory is loving up, your are potentially loving up an entire industry. Alchenar fucked around with this message at 10:31 on Jan 21, 2024 |
|
#
?
Jan 21, 2024 10:28
|
|
|
The poster above me does not understand planning, or the economy, or centralization.
|
|
#
?
Jan 21, 2024 12:04
|
|
|
M_Gargantua posted:The poster above me does not understand planning, or the economy, or centralization. Same with the poster below you.
|
|
#
?
Jan 21, 2024 14:21
|
|
|
Could you imagine having to meet your KPI's in a command economy? It's bad enough when you're explaining why you can't improve metrics every single week to management, now throw in an NKVD officer and local politician
|
|
#
?
Jan 21, 2024 17:50
|
|
|
The Door Frame posted:Could you imagine having to meet your KPI's in a command economy? It's bad enough when you're explaining why you can't improve metrics every single week to management, now throw in an NKVD officer and local politician Yeah so you lie about the numbers right?
|
|
#
?
Jan 21, 2024 18:17
|
|
|
nm off topic
Ronwayne fucked around with this message at 20:55 on Jan 21, 2024 |
|
#
?
Jan 21, 2024 19:58
|
|
|
that's a very tempting derail, thread, but not today. Anyway, https://twitter.com/Tendar/status/1749076281512059217 Looks like at least one of Russia's oil/gas export hubs is offline for the moment. I wonder if this is An Abundance Of Caution or if it is equipment just how bad the damage is.
|
|
#
?
Jan 21, 2024 20:41
|
|
|
Yeah that was taking the thread even further off topic, my bad.
|
|
#
?
Jan 21, 2024 20:55
|
|
|
tiaz posted:that's a very tempting derail, thread, but not today. i mean personally i'd be not pumping flammable liquids until i could be certain everything was 100% ok, but i'm not russian either so who knows
|
|
#
?
Jan 21, 2024 21:12
|
|
|
https://twitter.com/intermarium24/status/1749063209019953447 https://twitter.com/intermarium24/status/1749063798315515937 quote:Hahahah - seriously. not kidding: Putin has signed a decree making the sale of Alaska to the US illegal. territory is to be declared occupied https://twitter.com/Osinttechnical/status/1749069378782367956 quote:DJI Agras T30 agricultural drone in Ukrainian service, armed with a PKM 7.62x54mmR machine gun and a Bullspike-AT grenade launcher. Content: A picture of a pretty scary-looking quadcopter drone. I don't recall seeing drones with guns before, now that I think about it. Is it simply because it's harder to aim and requires standing still and making the drone a target to get hits in, compared to explosives that allow you to shoot and scoot more effectively, or are there other reasons that gun drones don't seem to have gotten much play compared to FPV explosives and grenade droppers? https://www.kyivpost.com/post/27007 quote:Ukraine's SBU Claims Drone Attack on Russian Gas Terminal Near St. Petersburg Looks like a sizeable explosion.
|
|
#
?
Jan 21, 2024 21:15
|
|
|
PurpleXVI posted:
Drones are fairly low mass, wouldn't recoil knock their aim off even more? A grenade launcher seems like the perfect weapon for such a thing though
|
|
#
?
Jan 21, 2024 21:25
|
|
|
The USA responds with the legal justification of no takesie backsies and triple dog dares you to do something about it.
|
|
#
?
Jan 21, 2024 21:28
|
|
|
tiaz posted:that's a very tempting derail, thread, but not today. Just in case anybody else had problems reading this map like I did, you may find the image below instructive.
|
|
#
?
Jan 21, 2024 22:03
|
|
|
Powered Descent posted:Nice! Mine's a common gutter Inland Division one (i.e. General Motors), but it's one of my favorite shooters. Same, bought it from a fellow Goon many years ago.
|
|
#
?
Jan 21, 2024 22:46
|
|
|
Ukraine already did that possession skit better like last year.
|
|
#
?
Jan 21, 2024 23:09
|
|
|
Ust-Luga is here: Just outside St Petersburg.
|
|
#
?
Jan 21, 2024 23:36
|
|
|
Computer viking posted:Ust-Luga is here: That doesnt appear to be next to Ukraine. Huh.
|
|
#
?
Jan 22, 2024 00:56
|
|
|
PurpleXVI posted:https://twitter.com/intermarium24/status/1749063209019953447 lmao perhaps they'd like to pay us back the money we gave them for it Computer viking posted:Ust-Luga is here: Ust-Ligma
|
|
#
?
Jan 22, 2024 01:49
|
|
|
Alan Smithee posted:lmao We still have the cancelled check from the transaction. 
|
|
#
?
Jan 22, 2024 02:03
|
|
|
I like how the check is payable directly to the ambassador instead of the imperial treasury
|
|
#
?
Jan 22, 2024 02:08
|
|
|
shame on an IGA posted:I like how the check is payable directly to the ambassador instead of the imperial treasury US: *pays ambassador $7.2 million* Russian ambassador: "Yes they paid us the $2 million. I had to talk them up from 1"
|
|
#
?
Jan 22, 2024 02:23
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 6, 2024 23:49 |
|
|
https://www.kyivpost.com/post/27031quote:Why the 'Watershed' UK–Ukraine Security Agreement Is a Game-Changer Apparently a good number of countries are signing individual agreements to support and defend Ukraine, getting around the issue of veto shitheads like Orban and Fico stopping communal efforts from the EU, NATO, etc. https://twitter.com/Osinttechnical/status/1749253898890514465 Content: Ukraine develops the ultimate weapon that can be stopped by no defense. Not gonna lie, I want to see this thing actually score a kill.
|
|
#
?
Jan 22, 2024 11:43
|
|