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Which season of Doctor Who should get a Blu-ray set next? This poll is closed. |
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| One of the black-and-white seasons |
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16 | 29.63% |
| Season 7 |
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7 | 12.96% |
| Season 11 |
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1 | 1.85% |
| Season 13 |
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0 | 0% |
| Season 15 |
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2 | 3.70% |
| The Key to Time |
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21 | 38.89% |
| Season 21 |
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0 | 0% |
| Season 25 |
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7 | 12.96% |
| Total: | 54 votes | ||
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Hollismason posted:LMAO at the Doctor threatening to kill everyone with a deadly Jelly Baby. Supposedly the script had the Doctor threatening someone with a knife but Tom Baker thought that was out of character, so he just said "Why don't I use a jelly baby? They aren't supposed to know what it is anyway."
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Jan 21, 2024 17:31
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| # ? May 23, 2024 09:53 |
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McGann posted:It's just pre-tipping point social/culture stuff. Regular use of "Transvestite", some minor misogynistic tones when describing women (She was ugly as poo poo, she HAD to be smart sorta line). As I noted, nothing glaring or anything appearing malicious - more a sense of "If this was written ten years later, this would be problematic, and if they author didn't agree it was problematic in retrospect, they probably did it intentionally". These could also easily be "This is the character's headspace, not the author's" but I find it takes a *very* skilled author to not let any of their own views bleed through. Yeah, that makes sense. Though I would say in 2011 "transvestite" was a reasonably normal word to use (though people would probably use it in a way that distinguished from transsexuals). Like, as in, I am saying this as a British trans person - it's not a term I've ever identified with but I'm fairly sure I know some people who at the very least did in the recent past, and I wouldn't necessarily consider use of it problematic now - though it depends how he was using it for sure. The misogyny sounds pretty unambiguous though! (As you say, could very much be a character view thing, but yes I agree at best that is definitely a misogynistic character.)
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Jan 21, 2024 17:33
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lines posted:Yeah, that makes sense. Though I would say in 2011 "transvestite" was a reasonably normal word to use (though people would probably use it in a way that distinguished from transsexuals). Like, as in, I am saying this as a British trans person - it's not a term I've ever identified with but I'm fairly sure I know some people who at the very least did in the recent past, and I wouldn't necessarily consider use of it problematic now - though it depends how he was using it for sure. The misogyny sounds pretty unambiguous though! (As you say, could very much be a character view thing, but yes I agree at best that is definitely a misogynistic character.) Action Jacktion posted:Supposedly the script had the Doctor threatening someone with a knife but Tom Baker thought that was out of character, so he just said "Why don't I use a jelly baby? They aren't supposed to know what it is anyway."
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Jan 21, 2024 17:36
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Warthur posted:My understanding from people who've read deeper into the series is that the protagonist gets better at that stuff over time, in a way which either suggests it was meant to be a character thing or indicates Aaronovitch has been getting better at it. Generously, it can be read as Peter getting his mindset away from the still very racist and sexist attitudes of the Met and embracing a much more open mind as he experiences more of the world/demi-monde. Moon over Soho has Peter’s big flaw where he sleeps with the main murder suspect in his case, revealing he’s still a blithering idiot at that point, and has a lot of sorting himself out to do.
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Jan 21, 2024 18:03
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The_Doctor posted:Generously, it can be read as Peter getting his mindset away from the still very racist and sexist attitudes of the Met and embracing a much more open mind as he experiences more of the world. I think that's how I read it - Peter is a young smart arse that alternates between being sure he knows everything and realising he knows nothing. He gets better as the books go on.
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Jan 21, 2024 18:05
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Almost finished with Face of Evil , but I like that the Face of Evil is The Doctor. LMAO. Good Job.
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Jan 21, 2024 18:54
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Oof forgot about Toberman in Tomb of the Cyberman That certainly is a Man Friday insert, isn't it.
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Jan 21, 2024 19:19
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Infinitum posted:Oof forgot about Toberman in Tomb of the Cyberman If there's one thing that Tomb of the Cybermen gets amazingly wrong, it's the characterization of anyone that isn't a white British person (or perceived as a white British person, in the Doctor's case) or a Cyberman.
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Jan 21, 2024 19:26
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lines posted:Yeah, that makes sense. Though I would say in 2011 "transvestite" was a reasonably normal word to use (though people would probably use it in a way that distinguished from transsexuals). Like, as in, I am saying this as a British trans person - it's not a term I've ever identified with but I'm fairly sure I know some people who at the very least did in the recent past, and I wouldn't necessarily consider use of it problematic now - though it depends how he was using it for sure. The misogyny sounds pretty unambiguous though! (As you say, could very much be a character view thing, but yes I agree at best that is definitely a misogynistic character.) Fil5000 posted:I think that's how I read it - Peter is a young smart arse that alternates between being sure he knows everything and realising he knows nothing. He gets better as the books go on. .. Also makes sense. 🤔And it does fit the character if this is part of his growth. As well, I'd understand the read that he thinks his way to due to youth and having trained through the Met. Fwiw I suspected that some of my take away about the transvestite usage was colored by my American culture, I appreciate the clarification on its use in British vernacular
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Jan 21, 2024 19:58
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McGann posted:Makes sense - I should have specified, the character thinking the misogynistic bit was PC grant, the protagonist, which is why it stood out to me. However, thinking along the lines below.. Like to be clear there's very much a transphobic way of using it! And I might be wrong about how it would have come across in 2011. But it doesn't to me feel jarringly bad. Having googled it many people seem to regard "crossdresser" as better? But I just don't know that that's as true in the same way in the UK? Think getting into it properly would be way too much of a derail for this thread though. The character being ex-Met certainly feels to me like a sufficient explanation for them being shite at various social stuff. The Met is an awful institution (obviously you might have general criticisms of police forces, and certainly there are few forces in the UK who don't have either a bad reputation for one thing or another or are literally in the middle of nowhere policing cows mainly and so don't really have much chance to accumulate one: but I would say that the Met have a particular reputation for being especially regressive).
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Jan 21, 2024 21:42
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lines posted:Like to be clear there's very much a transphobic way of using it! And I might be wrong about how it would have come across in 2011. But it doesn't to me feel jarringly bad. Having googled it many people seem to regard "crossdresser" as better? But I just don't know that that's as true in the same way in the UK? Think getting into it properly would be way too much of a derail for this thread though. Peter’s still a police officer with the Met, but he works in the Folly/Special Assessment Unit, a division dedicated to magic-related incidents, away from the main operational depts and your standard bigoted plod. I should make a RoL thread in books. There’s an urban fantasy thread, but the RoL stuff gets buried a lot there.
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Jan 21, 2024 22:05
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The_Doctor posted:Peter’s still a police officer with the Met, but he works in the Folly/Special Assessment Unit, a division dedicated to magic-related incidents, away from the main operational depts and your standard bigoted plod. Please do. I love those books.
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Jan 21, 2024 22:45
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Hrmm so this episode comes with a precursor warning that people may find it offensive. Obviously this is going to be hella racist. Yep, really racist with people wearing yellow face.
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Jan 22, 2024 00:03
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Hollismason posted:Hrmm so this episode comes with a precursor warning that people may find it offensive. Obviously this is going to be hella racist. I'm assuming you're watching the Talons of Weng-Chiang, which is probably the most unfortunately racism-adjacent serial. If not for the yellowface, you'd bet your rear end it would be the #1 story of all time.
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Jan 22, 2024 00:07
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Edward Mass posted:I'm assuming you're watching the Talons of Weng-Chiang, which is probably the most unfortunately racism-adjacent serial. If not for the yellowface, you'd bet your rear end it would be the #1 story of all time. Yea it is. I'm still going to watch it though.
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Jan 22, 2024 00:09
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Edward Mass posted:I'm assuming you're watching the Talons of Weng-Chiang, which is probably the most unfortunately racism-adjacent serial. If not for the yellowface, you'd bet your rear end it would be the #1 story of all time. Yeah I haven't watched this yet (because of the racism) but people do seem to uniformly say this, that it would be the best story were it not for that. I understand the fandom of two/three decades ago was worse and just said it was the best with less qualifiers?
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Jan 22, 2024 00:20
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I will say this I like how aggressive Leela is compared to the Doctor. Like she's really portrayed as someone who has no problem killing people and fighting. She's kind of a fish out of water in some respects but its still hilarious that he has a companion who has no qualms about killing
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Jan 22, 2024 00:27
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I wouldn't call it #1 (and I'm not aware the fandom in general has ever done so) if you went without the racism, but it is still extremely very good, and features the quintessential "Holmes double act", to the extent that there's even been an entire Big Finish spin-off based around them. Good lord is the racism tough to get through, though.
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Jan 22, 2024 00:43
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lines posted:Yeah I haven't watched this yet (because of the racism) but people do seem to uniformly say this, that it would be the best story were it not for that. I understand the fandom of two/three decades ago was worse and just said it was the best with less qualifiers? It wasn't just the fandom, there was a lot of casual racism on British TV throughout the 60s and 70s. Remember, The Black & White Minstrel show was only canceled about a year after Talons of Weng-Chiang aired.
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Jan 22, 2024 00:54
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Like a lot of the Hinchcliffe and Holmes era it's taking inspiration from another work. The problem is that that work is also really racist. But at least we can all love the giant rat. E: Sydney Bottocks posted:It wasn't just the fandom, there was a lot of casual racism on British TV throughout the 60s and 70s. Remember, The Black & White Minstrel show was only canceled about a year after Talons of Weng-Chiang aired. gently caress me, I forgot about that. Shudder. League of Gentlemen proved, though, that a "minstrel" could make a terrifying Who monster. Coward fucked around with this message at 01:00 on Jan 22, 2024 |
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Jan 22, 2024 00:56
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Talons was never quite able to beat out Genesis of The Daleks, or Caves of Androzani, but it was pretty commonly in the tier right below, with stuff like And The Silurians, Tomb of the Cybermen and Curse of Fenric.
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Jan 22, 2024 00:56
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The racism is really bad and the fact (towards the end of the story) that Chang ends up in an opium den just doubles down on it. Which, as everybody has said, makes it extremely uncomfortable to recommend even though it's such a good story otherwise.
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Jan 22, 2024 01:07
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Autisanal Cheese posted:Please do. I love those books. I’ll start cobbling together an OP later! I need to look up the graphic novels, I don’t really follow them because I don’t jive with the art a lot of the time.
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Jan 22, 2024 01:14
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Jerusalem posted:The racism is really bad and the fact (towards the end of the story) that Chang ends up in an opium den just doubles down on it. Which, as everybody has said, makes it extremely uncomfortable to recommend even though it's such a good story otherwise. The decision to do a pastiche of Victorian Fu Manchu pulp stories without any reflection on the tropes that you're replicating is a really bad one.
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Jan 22, 2024 01:14
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I appreciate that Leela on her own sneaks into the bad guys lair and kicks his rear end. The racism isn't really that great but it is a good story.
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Jan 22, 2024 01:20
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The Hinchcliffe era peaked with Robots of Death and even if Talons were not massively racist (due to simply regurgitating Fu Manchu stuff uncritically) it would not be anywhere near as good as Robots of Death.
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Jan 22, 2024 01:30
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I fell off of Doctor Who back during Capaldi's last season. I wasn't a big fan of Moffat's tenure as showrunner beyond Smith's first season, though there were still bright spots like Heaven Sent. I decided to get back into it with the recent specials and I'm glad I did! RTD certainly isn't perfect but he does bring a certain energy to the show that I really felt was missing as Moffat's run went on. I've heard a lot of good things about season 10 so I'll probably go back and watch that before spring. I haven't heard much of anything good about Chibnall's seasons but I'll probably watch a couple of the episodes from his run as well as I do want to see some of Whittaker's Doctor. The recent conversation in here also has made me want to go back and watch some classic Who episodes and I'm starting with The Daemons. It's been over a decade since I watched pre-revival stuff so I'm looking forward to it!
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Jan 22, 2024 01:37
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Warthur posted:The Hinchcliffe era peaked with Robots of Death and even if Talons were not massively racist (due to simply regurgitating Fu Manchu stuff uncritically) it would not be anywhere near as good as Robots of Death. I liked Robots of Death sets and the designs and such but found it a rather boring murder mystery. It was good but I didn't think it was like the best or whatever. I really am enjoying Talons though. It is a good story.
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Jan 22, 2024 01:41
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Jago and Lightfoot do a lot of the work, and Leela being who she is in Victorian times gives them a lot to work with as well. But yeah, agreeing with what everyone has said and its more pernicious aspects.
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Jan 22, 2024 01:53
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Sydney Bottocks posted:It wasn't just the fandom, there was a lot of casual racism on British TV throughout the 60s and 70s. Remember, The Black & White Minstrel show was only canceled about a year after Talons of Weng-Chiang aired. Sure, but I feel like in the 90s or early 00s there was less of it and we could recognise it for what it was? I was a small child at the time so maybe I'm wrong about this.
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Jan 22, 2024 02:05
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Flying Zamboni posted:The recent conversation in here also has made me want to go back and watch some classic Who episodes and I'm starting with The Daemons. It's been over a decade since I watched pre-revival stuff so I'm looking forward to it! I love The Daemons so much, even if the special effects are pretty dated and Azal's voice gets a little ridiculous at times. Quatermass via Doctor Who is a winning combination.
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Jan 22, 2024 02:22
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lines posted:Sure, but I feel like in the 90s or early 00s there was less of it and we could recognise it for what it was? I was a small child at the time so maybe I'm wrong about this. When I got to the UK in the early 1990s, while I didn't actually watch much TV during my time there (mainly because I was a young American who was more interested in exploring Britain and meeting British people, instead of just watching them on television like I'd done when watching stuff on PBS), there did seem to be a lot less casual racism on most shows at the time. Not saying there wasn't any, but I get the impression that things had started to slowly change during the 1980s and into the 1990s and beyond. Obviously I don't know what caused this gradual cultural shift, but if I had to guess it's probably a combination of people who were part of these various communities getting increasingly tired of being mocked and made the butt of jokes by lazy TV writers, and more progressive performers and writers (such as Cartmel and McCoy and Aldred during their run on DW, as well as various performers and writers on other programs) who didn't want to pander to cultural or racial stereotypes and weren't interested in pleasing bigoted audiences.
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Jan 22, 2024 02:54
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I hope Leela stays bloodthirsty like she is in this serial. She's all like " Lets set up an ambush and murder these fuckers" while sharpening knives. edit: Okay so racism aside its a really drat good Doctor Who story. It was bothersome but like overal it introduced a lot of different characters and you want to see more of them. Leela was great. The Doctor was good. Jelly Babies showed up. It was also really action packed. Like lots of poo poo happened in it and even though its a longer one with 6 parts its a great final serial for the season. Yeah alright the racism isn't really defensible but I can see why people are like "Yeah if it wasn't for that it'd be one of the better Doctor Who episodes" Hollismason fucked around with this message at 04:01 on Jan 22, 2024 |
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Jan 22, 2024 03:14
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It being otherwise a really good story is what makes the racism even more awkward and unnecessary. If The Twin Dilemma was all done in yellowface, I think everyone would just shrug and add it to the pile of "What the hell were they thinking?"
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Jan 22, 2024 04:17
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Just got to Day of the Doctor on my rewatch. Just a delightful watch, both excellent in fanservice and also being a new story. Also Billie Piper as the Bad Wolf is incredibly good.
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Jan 22, 2024 04:31
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SirSamVimes posted:Also Billie Piper as the Bad Wolf is incredibly good. No more. NO MORE!  No more! 
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Jan 22, 2024 04:44
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ₙₒ ₘₒᵣₑ
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Jan 22, 2024 04:55
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"I could kiss you, Bad Wolf girl!" "Yeah, that'll happen."
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Jan 22, 2024 04:58
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Sydney Bottocks posted:When I got to the UK in the early 1990s, while I didn't actually watch much TV during my time there (mainly because I was a young American who was more interested in exploring Britain and meeting British people, instead of just watching them on television like I'd done when watching stuff on PBS), there did seem to be a lot less casual racism on most shows at the time. Not saying there wasn't any, but I get the impression that things had started to slowly change during the 1980s and into the 1990s and beyond. A lot of it is that a big percentage of the British Black and Asian community was just a lot newer than, say, Afro-Americans are to the US. A lot of immigration to the UK, particularly the big cities, happened in the immediate post war period with families like the Windrush generation coming over. In the 1960s, this was still all fairly new and a lot of empire-era stereotypes were still kicking around in common culture, but by the 1980s you had a second generation of Black and Brown Brits who'd grown up in the UK, and who were a lot less willing to put up with that poo poo than their parents were. And also, white kids who had grown up with them and could see those supposed traits didn't remotely match reality in any way. There's also the remnants of the British Empire. While the history books would probably mark the end of it at around 1918, there's still fuckers around today who think and act like it's still a thing. And a lot of the horrors of the British Empire was justified at the time by ideas of bringing 'civilisation' to 'more primitive societies', hence turning those societies into racist caricatures. In the 60s, a lot Britain was only really starting to get the memo that it wasn't really a global power anymore, the Suez crisis was only a few years before after all, and TV tended to reflect that. I mean, the background of The Doctor itself is rather unfortunate in a lot of ways - until recently, it was a posh white guy with the title of Lord running around telling 'less advanced' people how to behave. It's all very White Man's Burden.
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Jan 22, 2024 08:56
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| # ? May 23, 2024 09:53 |
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DavidCameronsPig posted:A lot of it is that a big percentage of the British Black and Asian community was just a lot newer than, say, Afro-Americans are to the US. A lot of immigration to the UK, particularly the big cities, happened in the immediate post war period with families like the Windrush generation coming over. In the 1960s, this was still all fairly new and a lot of empire-era stereotypes were still kicking around in common culture, but by the 1980s you had a second generation of Black and Brown Brits who'd grown up in the UK, and who were a lot less willing to put up with that poo poo than their parents were. And also, white kids who had grown up with them and could see those supposed traits didn't remotely match reality in any way. We still think we're a global power, it's unfortunate (also we have nukes and a seat on the Security Council which doesn't help with the general delusion). I seem to recall the alternative comedy scene in the 80s pushed back a lot of the fairly racist comedy scene of previous decades, your Bernard Mannings and the like. People (I assume) still go to Roy "Chubby" Brown shows but mercifully I don't really think it's many of them nowadays. And it's not on TV. This all being said, I feel like in the 00s there was a bit of a resurgence in comedy in particular? See: Little Britain, or the inexplicable popularity of Jimmy Carr.
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Jan 22, 2024 09:36
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