(Thread IKs:
fatherboxx)
|
Qtotonibudinibudet posted:for nicky 2 there's at least the whole thing where the orthodox faithful are like "ah so noble he was martyred when he and his family were brutally and callously murdered by the evil godless communists", so i can "get" it from that angle even if i think it's stupid but... if that's your thing why would you put him opposite noted godless communist stalin Stalin was the one brought the church back, actually🙏   
|
#
?
Jan 20, 2024 20:47
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 6, 2024 11:00 |
|
|
Also Stalin is regarded as the guy who  It's often forgotten that for most of the last 100 years, Germany has been a strategic ally of Russia one way or another. In the 1920's Soviet Union and Germany were regarded as scoundrels and they had difficulties in jump starting their economies and defense industries, so they started cooperating, which then continued with Molotov-Ribbentrop pact. And then during cold war East Germany was closely tied to Soviets, but even in the West the sentiment was a strange mixture of guilt of doing genocide and embarrasment of failure in doing it, and when the wall was torn down and Soviet Union collapsed, the vibe in Germany was that they should develop an energy dependence to this nice Russian fellow who is clearly a friend of Germany and has even worked here, that way there would never be another war between Germany and Russia. And they were right! The problem though is that it wouldn't prevent Russia from invading or bullying all the other countries that it saw being in her sphere of interest...
|
|
#
?
Jan 20, 2024 20:58
|
|
|
Tuna-Fish posted:The AP didn't penetrate the front. All 3 crew of the T-90 escaped the tank looking unharmed. Oh, interesting. I need to look more closely, then. Thanks! Also not sure if the post above was a joke or not, but there are no 25mm smoke rounds that I know of. It's possible they switched to HEAT, but that wouldn't make much sense; I cannot imagine a 25mm HEAT round penetrating frontal tank armor for anything made past about 1960. I could be wrong, though!
|
|
#
?
Jan 20, 2024 21:01
|
|
|
In the interview he said they were “having issues” with the AP rounds so they they switched to targeting the optics. I assume “having issues” meant that they couldn’t pierce the frontal armor on the T-90. When they were talking to the mechanic and he said that the Bradley wasn’t designed for Ukrainian winters, wasn’t the Bradley originally designed for a Cold War conflict in Europe? Surely the designers would have taken European winters into account. Unless the recent use of the Bradley in combat in the Middles East over the last 30 years means that the some of its winter capabilities have been sacrificed for hot weather capabilities.
|
|
#
?
Jan 20, 2024 21:17
|
|
|
Bradley does have smoke launchers so I think they meant that, and presumably the American thermal optics are also better than Russian ones, so they could then lay an ambush. But it's difficult to tell from the drone video because there's certainly smoke but snow makes it difficult to distinguish and even harder is to say is it smoke from guns, engine exhausts and ERA blocks or from smoke launchers. I wonder if TOW would have been useful from this aspect? There's one bigger explosion on the video.
|
|
#
?
Jan 20, 2024 21:17
|
|
|
Mr. Apollo posted:When they were talking to the mechanic and he said that the Bradley wasn’t designed for Ukrainian winters, wasn’t the Bradley originally designed for a Cold War conflict in Europe? Surely the designers would have taken European winters into account. Unless the recent use of the Bradley in combat in the Middles East over the last 30 years means that the some of its winter capabilities have been sacrificed for hot weather capabilities. It's just overall difficult to repair stuff in the field in winter conditions. Vehicles are always compromises and it's believable that Soviet design bureaus emphasized winter compatibility a tad more than American companies, but it might also just be a personal view.
|
|
#
?
Jan 20, 2024 21:21
|
|
|
Nenonen posted:Bradley does have smoke launchers so I think they meant that, and presumably the American thermal optics are also better than Russian ones, so they could then lay an ambush. But it's difficult to tell from the drone video because there's certainly smoke but snow makes it difficult to distinguish and even harder is to say is it smoke from guns, engine exhausts and ERA blocks or from smoke launchers. https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?noseen=0&threadid=3910801&perpage=40&pagenumber=1467#post537283489 A TOW is most likely useful from just about any aspect, it's a good question why one was not employed. The above link links the interview with the Bradley commander and about 4 posts talking interpretation. The consensus in the Cold War thread is that the Bradley ablated away all the systems on the outside, including smoke grenades and reactive armor, all which could be the cause of the secondary explosion. The combat footage seems to show that tank was out of control, and the crew bailed. Mission killed. Also, credit to video games of course.
|
|
#
?
Jan 20, 2024 21:53
|
|
|
LRADIKAL posted:https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?noseen=0&threadid=3910801&perpage=40&pagenumber=1467#post537283489 FWIH, they were engaging in less than 100m, not enough distance to use the TOW. I do think that they ended up scoring a tread hit or blew a guide wheel, resulting in the tank losing control then stopping altogether. Also, I can't imagine the cacophony and panic inside that T90 while getting hit from a constant stream of fire. From the stuff I've heard, the T90 crew was getting stun-locked by the 25mm hits.
|
|
#
?
Jan 21, 2024 02:18
|
|
|
I'm half convinced that when the commander said they had trouble with the armor piercing, they did mean the TOWs and not the chain gun ammo.
|
|
#
?
Jan 21, 2024 03:07
|
|
|
Mr. Apollo posted:In the interview he said they were “having issues” with the AP rounds so they they switched to targeting the optics. I assume “having issues” meant that they couldn’t pierce the frontal armor on the T-90. The ammunition can jam, though it's relatively rare. It's a double feed system so you have both AP and HEAT loaded at the same time. (When you switch ammo type your first round is the previous ammo type, though.) US vehicles are built for a wide range of temperatures. It should work fine in winter in Europe, but I'll bet there are optimizations Ukraine makes to it's engines that aren't present in US engines. Nenonen posted:I wonder if TOW would have been useful from this aspect? There's one bigger explosion on the video. Not at that range. There's a minimum arming distance of... 50m, I think?... and, more importantly, you have to remain stationary. It's really meant for firing on the defense from behind defilade. Knife-fighting range on the move? I'd take my changes with the autocannon.
|
|
#
?
Jan 21, 2024 03:35
|
|
|
fatherboxx posted:https://twitter.com/wartranslated/status/1748480083990372669?t=UfCYL7sMqFZqQgYYtsAs1A&s=19
|
|
#
?
Jan 21, 2024 04:29
|
|
|
Yeah looks like they blurred out the side for some reason. Maybe to hide identifying markings so people can't tell which specific Bradley that is.
|
|
#
?
Jan 21, 2024 06:04
|
|
|
The Artificial Kid posted:Are they blurring something on the left side of the Bradley during that video? The closups where you can see the side of the vehicle behind the commander look blurred. Or is it just some kind of digital camo or a coating of frost or something?
|
|
#
?
Jan 21, 2024 06:05
|
|
|
Mr. Apollo posted:When they were talking to the mechanic and he said that the Bradley wasn’t designed for Ukrainian winters, wasn’t the Bradley originally designed for a Cold War conflict in Europe? Surely the designers would have taken European winters into account. I don't know what that design would've encompassed, but there are different climates on the continent of Europe, yes. What you get in Eastern Ukraine is different from Eastern Poland, which is different from Eastern Germany.
|
|
#
?
Jan 21, 2024 09:37
|
|
|
That reminds me, has there been any more info about the CV90's sent to the eastern front? I only remember back in summer when they lost one to Russia (that they then put up in their tank museum) and another two getting damaged but other than that I've not heard anything.
|
|
#
?
Jan 21, 2024 12:39
|
|
|
An interview with British international relations pundit and Russia knower Mark Galeotti: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ttIxO9oWQY The interview is by some Finnish podcast guy (in English) and they talk about the relationships Russia has (or had) with Finland, with the Baltic countries, etc and Russian imperialism in general. Some interesting points made, mostly about the historical backgrounds
|
|
#
?
Jan 21, 2024 12:53
|
|
|
It'd be really funny if the Bradleys sent to Ukraine were the Operation Desert Storm Variant. The ones made for fighting in the Middle East and have their ability to do amphibious crossings removed. Oh wait, those were exactly the ones sent.
|
|
#
?
Jan 21, 2024 13:50
|
|
|
Tuna-Fish posted:The AP didn't penetrate the front. All 3 crew of the T-90 escaped the tank looking unharmed. It didn't penetrate the front of the tank and the Bradley was using bog standard HE fragmentation ammunition rather than HEAT (HEAT would be pretty useless on a 25mm shell). However, almost immediately after they started hitting it with said HE rounds the T-90 was having big trouble navigating and locating either Bradley, so the fragmentation from these HE rounds probably blinded the optics while also shredding ERA, smoke grenades, and everything else stuck on top of the armor. At this point the stuff inside the tank was still mostly functional and the crew attempted to withdraw and fight to some degree. Later on in the engagement, however, the Bradleys light up the side of the tank with more autocannon fire. After which you start to see the tank turret start swinging around in circles before the tank zooms off directly into a tree and becomes immobile. The sides of the T-72/90 have large portions you definitely can penetrate with 25mm AP ammunition, so they probably damaged the turret mechanisms and/or engine at that point. Either way the tank was proper hosed at this point and it's fair to say the Bradley auto cannons knocked it out - even if drones were used to catastrophically finish the job. Warbadger fucked around with this message at 22:21 on Jan 21, 2024 |
|
#
?
Jan 21, 2024 15:57
|
|
|
Mr. Apollo posted:
In reality there might be things that make service faster like a pulling a pin and using a hammer to remove something vs a nut or bolt that has to be spun off with a wrench. Or there could be things you need to take off your gloves to do.
|
|
#
?
Jan 21, 2024 22:38
|
|
|
What should have an experienced T-90 crew done when they were under fire the from Bradly? Pop smoke? It feels like to me they just panicked.
|
|
#
?
Jan 22, 2024 00:41
|
|
|
Gucci Loafers posted:What should have an experienced T-90 crew done when they were under fire the from Bradly? Pop smoke? I suspect an experienced crew wouldn't have been out there all alone in the first place.
|
|
#
?
Jan 22, 2024 00:42
|
|
|
That seems like much more of a tactical breakdown than the crews reaction. A lone unsupported tank getting attacked point blank and hammered by 25mm rounds well the M2 gets away unscathed because nobody else was there to support the T90.
|
|
#
?
Jan 22, 2024 01:57
|
|
|
First, shoot back. Second, pop smoke and break contact. I don't know what kind of sights or vision blocks are on a T-90, though. It all looks easy from the sidelines.
|
|
#
?
Jan 22, 2024 02:00
|
|
|
Deteriorata posted:I suspect an experienced crew wouldn't have been out there all alone in the first place. Crews don't get to choose where they get sent, and they attempted to break contact and gtfo after they got ambushed. But as pointed out, they were probably blind shortly after the shooting started so their options to either retaliate or escape weren't great.
|
|
#
?
Jan 22, 2024 02:12
|
|
|
Gucci Loafers posted:What should have an experienced T-90 crew done when they were under fire the from Bradly? Pop smoke? Spot the enemy before they were spotted themselves, allowing them to take out one of the Bradleys with an aimed shot? Had infantry support to help them do the above?
|
|
#
?
Jan 22, 2024 02:44
|
|
|
https://twitter.com/TheUCS473/status/1749161300196728989?t=B5WqKngD5_alr-HtaUByqQ&s=19 Not news, per se, but an excellent summary of lessons learned from the war from the perspective of some Western military thinkers.
|
|
#
?
Jan 22, 2024 03:18
|
|
|
The Lone Badger posted:Spot the enemy before they were spotted themselves, allowing them to take out one of the Bradleys with an aimed shot? At the same time, would the Bradleys have even engaged if the tank had been well supported? They clearly had a good idea of what was approaching, and I suspect a larger, more organized (and threatening) force would probably have drawn artillery fire long before anyone tried to ambush it with IFVs.
|
|
#
?
Jan 22, 2024 03:33
|
|
|
During the interview, the crew said that one Bradley already engaged the T-90 “and it didn’t turn out so good for them”.
|
|
#
?
Jan 22, 2024 04:58
|
|
|
Ynglaur posted:https://twitter.com/TheUCS473/status/1749161300196728989?t=B5WqKngD5_alr-HtaUByqQ&s=19 Interesting how drones have had a huge impact but things like tanks and artillery are still really important even in era of high tech warfare with precision weapons.
|
|
#
?
Jan 22, 2024 09:23
|
|
|
Ynglaur posted:https://twitter.com/TheUCS473/status/1749161300196728989?t=B5WqKngD5_alr-HtaUByqQ&s=19 What's on the second page?
|
|
#
?
Jan 22, 2024 10:37
|
|
|
Gort posted:What's on the second page?
|
|
#
?
Jan 22, 2024 10:41
|
|
|
Ynglaur posted:https://twitter.com/TheUCS473/status/1749161300196728989?t=B5WqKngD5_alr-HtaUByqQ&s=19 "A single tank is the most lethal weapon on any battlefield" Uhm... 
|
|
#
?
Jan 22, 2024 10:47
|
|
|
Always has been. Can't really argue with a 120mm cannon with good optics and mobility sitting in the backline providing direct fire for advancing infantry. It's why everyone wants tanks.
|
|
#
?
Jan 22, 2024 10:59
|
|
|
Drones are a force multiplier for tanks/artillery/rockets, spotting from range.Gucci Loafers posted:Interesting how drones have had a huge impact but things like tanks and artillery are still really important even in era of high tech warfare with precision weapons.
|
|
#
?
Jan 22, 2024 11:36
|
|
|
Antigravitas posted:Always has been. Can't really argue with a 120mm cannon with good optics and mobility sitting in the backline providing direct fire for advancing infantry. It's why everyone wants tanks. I don't disagree with that, but emphasizing a single tank is funny as hell right after we saw a single tank getting murdered by ifv's 
|
|
#
?
Jan 22, 2024 12:18
|
|
|
It's just everything else gets murdered easier and can do less.
|
|
#
?
Jan 22, 2024 13:13
|
|
|
Thanks!
|
|
#
?
Jan 22, 2024 15:27
|
|
|
When has defense not been the "stronger form of war"? Assuming you have two evenly matched opponents...
|
|
#
?
Jan 22, 2024 17:31
|
|
|
sexy tiger boobs posted:When has defense not been the "stronger form of war"? Assuming you have two evenly matched opponents... How dare you question Pre-WWI French military doctrine.
|
|
#
?
Jan 22, 2024 17:50
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 6, 2024 11:00 |
|
|
sexy tiger boobs posted:When has defense not been the "stronger form of war"? Assuming you have two evenly matched opponents... Probably the short window between both world wars where tanks and motorized infantry offered unseen mobility to overrun/bypass established defenses and make tangible gains. That window closed very fast after the combatants figured out how to defend against it. Drones are similarly upsetting combat, but eventually there will either be decent enough countermeasures or mitigation factors. This is disregarding overwhelming firepower through bombing. Offense will almost always win if you just drop war-crimes on the defenses (i.e. oxygen-depriving firestorms or nukes).
|
|
#
?
Jan 22, 2024 17:54
|
|
