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Which season of Doctor Who should get a Blu-ray set next? This poll is closed. |
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| One of the black-and-white seasons |
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16 | 29.63% |
| Season 7 |
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7 | 12.96% |
| Season 11 |
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1 | 1.85% |
| Season 13 |
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0 | 0% |
| Season 15 |
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2 | 3.70% |
| The Key to Time |
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21 | 38.89% |
| Season 21 |
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0 | 0% |
| Season 25 |
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7 | 12.96% |
| Total: | 54 votes | ||
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lines posted:We still think we're a global power, it's unfortunate (also we have nukes and a seat on the Security Council which doesn't help with the general delusion). Yeah, Little Britain has a bunch of "oof" moments now, as does most of The League of Gentlemen. Jimmy Carr is in a slightly different camp where the entire purpose is to shock rather than "aren't these foreigners funny", but he's so loving lazy with it that there's times that it might as well be Bernard Manning material.
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Jan 22, 2024 10:16
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lines posted:We still think we're a global power, it's unfortunate (also we have nukes and a seat on the Security Council which doesn't help with the general delusion). It wasn't just the UK, although we were as bad for it as anyone else. There seemed to be a general feeling in the 00s that sexism, racism, homophobia, etc. were a thing of the past, so everyone could just say whatever they wanted, no matter how horrible, because they didn't really mean it. Transphobia, of course, was still perfectly fair game anyway, and it's only now we're really starting to grapple with that (with all the usual reactionary pushback). The 00s was also a time where a lot of humour was just flat out mean spirited a lot of the time (Jimmy Carr, as mentioned, but I'm thinking also of Family Guy and South Park as good examples). And often viciously misogynistic. We were all so smug back then but in hindsight it was all so retrograde and poisonous. There're a bunch of Vice series recently called Dark Side of..., and they did Dark Side of the 90s and Dark Side of the 00s. The former was about all kinds of things - Grunge, the rise of Hip-Hop, talk TV, beanie babies, the internet. Often about bad stuff (Jerry Springer, Rush Limbaugh), but overall very interesting. The latter was reality TV, men's magazines, TMZ, Howard Stern and Antony and Opie, and it was all so horrible, and a chore to watch. It was like the whole media was trying to make famous women kill themselves and/or to treat regular women like dirt. Like, gleefully, openly, and fully intentionally. Barry Foster fucked around with this message at 11:16 on Jan 22, 2024 |
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Jan 22, 2024 11:09
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Fil5000 posted:Yeah, Little Britain has a bunch of "oof" moments now, as does most of The League of Gentlemen. Jimmy Carr is in a slightly different camp where the entire purpose is to shock rather than "aren't these foreigners funny", but he's so loving lazy with it that there's times that it might as well be Bernard Manning material. The League of Gentleman was the foundation of a lot of good stuff but it doesn't really hold up, yeah. Inside No 9 is great though (and there is one episode which tackles the rather hackneyed nature of a lot of comedy of that earlier era, the heartbreaking Bernie Clifton's Dressing Room). Regarding the awfulness of the 00s: yeah it was terrible. Thinking of things like Trinny and Suzannah too. We're quite lucky really that the 05-10 Doctor Who broadly doesn't feel like it has most of those foibles, and indeed while it's by *no means* perfect I think the unambiguous queerness, at least, was a push back against some of that (still doesn't treat women particularly well though).
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Jan 22, 2024 11:24
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Barry Foster posted:It wasn't just the UK, although we were as bad for it as anyone else. There seemed to be a general feeling in the 00s that sexism, racism, homophobia, etc. were a thing of the past, so everyone could just say whatever they wanted, no matter how horrible, because they didn't really mean it. Transphobia, of course, was still perfectly fair game anyway, and it's only now we're really starting to grapple with that (with all the usual reactionary pushback). Man, lads mags have a LOT to answer for when it came to the 90s/00s. I was a young man when FHM was in its prime and it cannot have been good for me or society that it was standard for a) famous women to be expected to do photoshoots in their underwear when they had a new project out b) those photoshoots were accompanied with interviews where the reporter asked questions about their sex lives and preferences that these days would get you fired and blacklisted and c) once a year the country would rank famous women by how hot they were. Like, in the 90s we were already laughing at how backward the 70s were while there was an entire industry churning out these magazines.
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Jan 22, 2024 11:39
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God Little Britain was VILE
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Jan 22, 2024 11:45
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Little Britain was disgusting ableist, classist, and bigoted trash at the time and I don't get why it was popular. Just horrible and unfunny. Not even 'edgy' yet still funny humour like on south park or wonder showzen. Just awful. I'm glad matt lucas apologised for how poo poo it was.
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Jan 22, 2024 11:54
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Pivoting to something that is actually good, The Five-ish Doctors is just as funny as I remember it being. Just a thirty minute long shitpost and an absolute delight.
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Jan 22, 2024 12:22
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SirSamVimes posted:Pivoting to something that is actually good, The Five-ish Doctors is just as funny as I remember it being. Just a thirty minute long shitpost and an absolute delight. I think my only reluctance to return to it is Barrowman's contribution.
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Jan 22, 2024 12:23
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SirSamVimes posted:Pivoting to something that is actually good, The Five-ish Doctors is just as funny as I remember it being. Just a thirty minute long shitpost and an absolute delight. Davison, Colin Baker & McCoy all peeking on McGann on the phone, bitterly complaining that he's probably got an acting job... he's ALWAYS getting acting jobs! still delights me. Also Davison yelling at McCoy,"Dammit Sylvester, this is more important than some half-a-billion dollar blockbuster you're in!" 
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Jan 22, 2024 14:09
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Barry Foster posted:It wasn't just the UK, although we were as bad for it as anyone else. There seemed to be a general feeling in the 00s that sexism, racism, homophobia, etc. were a thing of the past, so everyone could just say whatever they wanted, no matter how horrible, because they didn't really mean it. Transphobia, of course, was still perfectly fair game anyway, and it's only now we're really starting to grapple with that (with all the usual reactionary pushback). Recording engineer Steve Albini (Nirvana, Pixies, Bush, Manic Street Preachers, and about a million other bands) kind of touched on this in the last couple of years; as you said, he was one of the people who assumed that racism etc. was a thing of the past, so he felt free to say edgelord bullshit for shock value because obviously he didn't believe those things, it was just done to shock. But then he started realizing that there were people who were unironically agreed with him when he said those edgelord things, and moreover there were people who he'd normally be 100% politically aligned with who were protesting or calling him out on his poo poo. I think that's where a lot of people were during the 1990s and 2000s; they obviously weren't racist/sexist/homophobic/etc. themselves, so it was okay to "ironically" make those kinds of jokes to shock people. I think the last couple of decades have seen people who aren't cis hetero white men finally start to really push back on edgelord bullshit and say "we're not going to put up with it any more", which is really great to see (along with people like Albini, who has since denounced his past actions and said that while he can't change the past, moving forward he's going to do the best he can to be an ally to these various groups). Swerving back to Doctor Who, I did watch the clip recently on YouTube from The Power of the Doctor, where modern-day Tegan and Ace meet the holographic versions of Five and Seven; and while I join in the general disdain for Chibnall's run, I really liked those two little moments where a couple of past Doctors get to reconnect with their companions after such a long time. Five going "I never forget any of you. I remember everything" and Seven going "we're more than good; we're Ace" must have stirred up some dust or something, because my eyes got a tad moist seeing those scenes.
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Jan 22, 2024 14:16
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Sydney Bottocks posted:Recording engineer Steve Albini (Nirvana, Pixies, Bush, Manic Street Preachers, and about a million other bands) kind of touched on this in the last couple of years; as you said, he was one of the people who assumed that racism etc. was a thing of the past, so he felt free to say edgelord bullshit for shock value because obviously he didn't believe those things, it was just done to shock. But then he started realizing that there were people who were unironically agreed with him when he said those edgelord things, and moreover there were people who he'd normally be 100% politically aligned with who were protesting or calling him out on his poo poo. I think that's where a lot of people were during the 1990s and 2000s; they obviously weren't racist/sexist/homophobic/etc. themselves, so it was okay to "ironically" make those kinds of jokes to shock people. I think the last couple of decades have seen people who aren't cis hetero white men finally start to really push back on edgelord bullshit and say "we're not going to put up with it any more", which is really great to see (along with people like Albini, who has since denounced his past actions and said that while he can't change the past, moving forward he's going to do the best he can to be an ally to these various groups). Seeing those pairings again in those wraparounds for classic episodes they stuck on iplayer was very nice, and yeah my room was also dusty, weird.
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Jan 22, 2024 14:57
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I just want to add, as I am late to the party, I really appreciate this thread for its willingness to dive into the cultural and other history surrounding the entertainment we discuss. This side swerve into edge lord comedy etc during the 80s/90s is fantastic. To add to the consensus, as a youth during the early 2000s who grew up on maxim, FHM, and even loving PC xcellerator magazine (basically maxim for gamers - they would have pin-ups of people like Morgan Webb, etc) definitely stunted my progressive development. Though I am hesitant to say I wish I had not experienced it because teenage me would kill me. But I regularly want to kill that guy for screwing with adult me anyway so it would be fair 😂 Edit let me 3rd or 4th the request for rivers of London thread. I will be finishing Moon Over Soho today so I can finally go back and unspoiler the one mention of Pete's flaw from the book, though I'm fairly certain I know what it is already recently being halfway through. Same problem teenage me would have with removing maxim from history, I think. Plus I'll need a place so I don't clutter Up This Thread as I continue through the series. * apologies for any typos I missed, heavy Voice to Text usage Last edit / I noticed around the urban fantasy thread but immediately ran into some spoilers for the Harry dresden series, so noped out fast 😂 McGann fucked around with this message at 15:33 on Jan 22, 2024 |
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Jan 22, 2024 15:22
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DavidCameronsPig posted:A lot of it is that a big percentage of the British Black and Asian community was just a lot newer than, say, Afro-Americans are to the US. A lot of immigration to the UK, particularly the big cities, happened in the immediate post war period with families like the Windrush generation coming over. In the 1960s, this was still all fairly new and a lot of empire-era stereotypes were still kicking around in common culture, but by the 1980s you had a second generation of Black and Brown Brits who'd grown up in the UK, and who were a lot less willing to put up with that poo poo than their parents were. And also, white kids who had grown up with them and could see those supposed traits didn't remotely match reality in any way. One of the guys I work with is a black guy who's also ex-military (Marines), and we were talking about my time in the UK once. He'd never been over there, so he was asking about racism over there, and I pointed out some of the things you'd said. I also gave a couple of anecdotes: one from a black sergeant I'd served with, who said the only racism he'd ever experienced during his 4 years in the UK, was when he went into a different newsagents than he usually frequented, to pick up a couple of newspapers/magazines that focused on black culture (both British and internationally). When he got to the counter, the older white guy that worked there opened both papers up and started going through them, telling the sergeant that "you people" always hide magazines or whatever in them to steal them (the sergeant then basically told him to stick the papers up his rear end and left). The other thing that happened was pretty much a race riot, when some black airmen from our base went out partying one night at the local nightclub. When they went to the car park (I think it was the one near the local Tesco) afterwards to get a kebab or burger or whatever from one of the several vans that set up there (for post-nightclubbing dining), some white Brits started giving them poo poo and a huge fight broke out. It was a bit of a scandal at our base, not just because of what happened, but because the gate guard (who was a buddy of theirs) didn't report it when they came in with a busted windshield on their car, one guy who had a concussion, and the others being bruised and bloody and whatnot. I'm as white a dude as it's possible to be (blond, fair skin, blue eyes), so I never encountered racism myself while I was over there (and I tried my best not to live up to the "loudmouthed Yank" stereotype). But I'm from a town where black people are actually the majority of the population, so I'm definitely not blind to the various forms racism can take, either here in the US or over in the UK. Sydney Bottocks fucked around with this message at 16:02 on Jan 22, 2024 |
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Jan 22, 2024 15:52
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DavidCameronsPig posted:A lot of it is that a big percentage of the British Black and Asian community was just a lot newer than, say, Afro-Americans are to the US. A lot of immigration to the UK, particularly the big cities, happened in the immediate post war period with families like the Windrush generation coming over. In the 1960s, this was still all fairly new and a lot of empire-era stereotypes were still kicking around in common culture, but by the 1980s you had a second generation of Black and Brown Brits who'd grown up in the UK, and who were a lot less willing to put up with that poo poo than their parents were. And also, white kids who had grown up with them and could see those supposed traits didn't remotely match reality in any way. When Doctor Who gets itself into trouble in this way, it’s often a pairing between casual racist depictions and imperialism. Talons suffers from this, both in Litefoot’s backstory and in the decision to make Greel a fascist imperialist (and the “deformed because he’s evil” thing, while a Who trope, is just icing on that cake). Then the only character who in any way challenges the racist stereotypes is played by a man in yellowface. Compare with Pyramids of Mars, which gets that imperialist flavor from its archeological “looting” context and some solid 1st episode anti-Egyptian “suspicious foreigner” stuff before it clears that away in favor of something else. There’s even a strong undertone of Chariots of the Gods where citizens of a foreign nation can’t possibly have done what they did without help from aliens. The Mummy films vary wildly in how they feel about theft of artifacts and imperialism more generally, but the episode doesn’t take a position so much as forget all about all of it by episode 2 in favor of something else. I love a good Robert Holmes story like (almost) everyone else, but he has a mixed record in this specific area. There’s some really ugly subtext that never quite goes away: The Two Doctors handles “the uplifted savage” in a pretty imperialist manner, even concluding that the savage cannot be civilized or overcome genetics. In a story where a major plot-point is identifying something genetic to Time Lords that facilitates time travel, that’s especially cringeworthy.
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Jan 22, 2024 16:57
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Narsham posted:I love a good Robert Holmes story like (almost) everyone else, but he has a mixed record in this specific area. There’s some really ugly subtext that never quite goes away: The Two Doctors handles “the uplifted savage” in a pretty imperialist manner, even concluding that the savage cannot be civilized or overcome genetics. In a story where a major plot-point is identifying something genetic to Time Lords that facilitates time travel, that’s especially cringeworthy. Lest we forget, if DW hadn't been put on hiatus between Colin Baker's first season and Trial of a Time Lord, the next script Holmes was working in for the show was to be set in Singapore, with the working title of "Yellow Fever and How to Cure It". Holmes was a great writer and a great script editor for the show. But he was also the youngest commissioned officer in the British Army during WW2, and after the war became a policeman. He was absolutely a product of British imperialism, even if the British empire was pretty much finished by the time he got into the army.
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Jan 22, 2024 17:08
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Sydney Bottocks posted:Lest we forget, if DW hadn't been put on hiatus between Colin Baker's first season and Trial of a Time Lord, the next script Holmes was working in for the show was to be set in Singapore, with the working title of "Yellow Fever and How to Cure It". Youngest commissioned officer in the British Army during WW2? That's a weirdly specific thing to be. I suppose someone has to be!
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Jan 22, 2024 17:18
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Narsham posted:When Doctor Who gets itself into trouble in this way, it’s often a pairing between casual racist depictions and imperialism. Talons suffers from this, both in Litefoot’s backstory and in the decision to make Greel a fascist imperialist (and the “deformed because he’s evil” thing, while a Who trope, is just icing on that cake). Then the only character who in any way challenges the racist stereotypes is played by a man in yellowface. I agree with a lot of this, but I'm not sure how making Magnus a fascist or imperialist is problematic. He's a white dude.
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Jan 22, 2024 17:19
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lines posted:Youngest commissioned officer in the British Army during WW2? That's a weirdly specific thing to be. I suppose someone has to be! Yeah, from what I gather Holmes lied about his age to get into the army, and quickly rose through the ranks while serving in Burma. When they found out he'd lied about his age at the commissioning ceremony, apparently the only reaction was from the general in charge, who laughed and said he'd done the same thing himself when he joined up.
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Jan 22, 2024 17:49
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keep punching joe posted:Little Britain was disgusting ableist, classist, and bigoted trash at the time and I don't get why it was popular. Just horrible and unfunny. Not even 'edgy' yet still funny humour like on south park or wonder showzen. Just awful. I feel much less conflicted about liking Nardole now I know Lucas has distanced himself from that and apologised for it.
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Jan 22, 2024 17:57
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I'm now on season 15 and the first serial is titled Horror of Fanged Rock. I feel like I'm in for a good time.
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Jan 22, 2024 18:42
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Character Options have announced (and put up for preorder) a Fugitive Doctor figure and TARDIS!  The site is absolutely failing to cope with people trying to order it.  
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Jan 22, 2024 20:00
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I wonder if Rusty is going to touch upon the Fugitive Doctor again or if it's done and dusted.
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Jan 22, 2024 21:06
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I hope Rusty can find some way to bring her back in a role that makes any sense using one of his classic asspulls. Hell, make her 16!! She's amazing.
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Jan 22, 2024 21:12
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Warthur posted:I feel much less conflicted about liking Nardole now I know Lucas has distanced himself from that and apologised for it. It's because Matt Lucas isn't a total rear end in a top hat with an absolutely terrible reputation in the business.
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Jan 22, 2024 21:24
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Hollismason posted:I'm now on season 15 and the first serial is titled Horror of Fanged Rock. I feel like I'm in for a good time. Say hi to Martha for us.
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Jan 22, 2024 23:25
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Narsham posted:I love a good Robert Holmes story like (almost) everyone else, but he has a mixed record in this specific area. There’s some really ugly subtext that never quite goes away: The Two Doctors handles “the uplifted savage” in a pretty imperialist manner, even concluding that the savage cannot be civilized or overcome genetics. In a story where a major plot-point is identifying something genetic to Time Lords that facilitates time travel, that’s especially cringeworthy. I was watching that just yesterday and good god that message is constant, and usually coming from the Doctor. Apparently there was a deleted line in which the Doctor compares Androgums to Native Americans and Australian Aborigines. Yeah. Meanwhile, Attack of the Cybermen had a deleted line in which the Doctor sees the black stealth Cyberman and asks if it's in a minstrel show. The Sontarans in The Two Doctors have some good dialogue but they mainly just seem to stand around and you wonder why they're there. Also, the padding had to be removed from their costumes to keep the actors from dying in the Spanish heat, so they're the skinniest Sontarans you've ever seen. I was watching the Blu-ray with the info text on, and it pointed out the continuity error with Troughton's Doctor working for the Time Lords, but then it basically said that only lame obsessive fans would care about it. Seriously? You can think what you like about the error, but I hate it when one (usually very small) group of fans decides the rules on how to be a cool fan and not a lame one.
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Jan 22, 2024 23:37
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Bicyclops posted:Say hi to Martha for us. Stuck watching multiple dogs, one injured, and wanted some classic serials for the background. Pluto currently running Delta and The Banner man.. Nope, but Caves is about to start on the Plex Who channel. Woot. It's amazing, we have like three separate free view classic Who services now, not including britbox, i player and whatever Disney plus is doing McGann fucked around with this message at 00:01 on Jan 23, 2024 |
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Jan 22, 2024 23:52
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McGann posted:Stuck watching multiple dogs Sorry to hear about you getting thrown into the briar patch 
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Jan 23, 2024 00:14
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McGann posted:
The Plex channel doesn't play through all the classic Who , I'm not sure of their schedule but there are serials that repeat on there. I'm not quite sure how their schedule works.
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Jan 23, 2024 00:20
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time of the doctor sure is a messy episode, huh
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Jan 23, 2024 00:26
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Please bring her back.  https://twitter.com/CooperHillier/status/1749403460485980342/
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Jan 23, 2024 00:45
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Updog Scully posted:I hope Rusty can find some way to bring her back in a role that makes any sense using one of his classic asspulls. Hell, make her 16!! She's amazing. Just do a renegade doctor episode set during the renegade doctor era. Justification? 'I felt like it'.
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Jan 23, 2024 00:57
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I do not like the implications of the Timeless Child at all. I haven't watched it yet , but I do not like. I had it spoiled by a friend of mine.
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Jan 23, 2024 00:59
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SirSamVimes posted:time of the doctor sure is a messy episode, huh Considering Moffatt had to 1) do a Christmas episode 2) do a regeneration episode 3) wrap up the Eleventh Doctor's lore and 4) explain how the Doctor can regenerate beyond 13 times, it was as good as it was going to get.
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Jan 23, 2024 01:03
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LMAO at Leela just slapping the poo poo out of this woman that screams. For no drat reason. Just pow! Really liking Leela as a companion.
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Jan 23, 2024 01:06
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Edward Mass posted:4) explain how the Doctor can regenerate beyond 13 times Agreed with your general point, but he didn’t have to do this one. He could’ve ignored the limit (which I remember being the thread consensus here for what would happen before this episode) or not decided that Tennant counted twice. He absolutely made the choice to use that episode to address the regeneration limit.
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Jan 23, 2024 01:20
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Hated the Timeless Child as a concept, really irritated by a lot of what Chibnall did and more importantly what he wasted potential wise... but one thing I'll always credit him for is casting Jo Martin as the Fugitive Doctor. The Fugitive Doctor doesn't make a goddamn lick of sense and it doesn't matter at all because her portrayal of the character is just great.Hollismason posted:LMAO at Leela just slapping the poo poo out of this woman that screams. For no drat reason. Just pow! Really liking Leela as a companion. Yeah Leela rules, I love that scene. 
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Jan 23, 2024 01:33
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Okay so Horror at Fang Rock was real drat good with limited sets and such. Leela was GOAT in the episode though. So many good moments with her. Especially her being like " Ha gently caress you you are going to loving die , gently caress you!" at the enemy. Never seen a companion who's so bloodthirsty. Honestly really liking Leela more than Sarah Jane Smith.
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Jan 23, 2024 01:37
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Leela owns. Also the character's named after Leila Khaled
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Jan 23, 2024 02:03
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Open Source Idiom posted:I agree with a lot of this, but I'm not sure how making Magnus a fascist or imperialist is problematic. He's a white dude. White fascist imperialist crash lands in "ancient" China, is worshiped as a god by the locals and eventually has an entire secret society devoted to him? That seems a bit problematic to me. Fu Manchu may have been a stereotypical villain and poster-boy for the "Yellow Peril" line of thinking, but at least he was a leader and a genius inventor. Greel is a white guy impersonating a Chinese deity, successfully. That's uncomfortably close to "we arrived and the primitive locals worshiped us as gods" trope that we constantly have to put up with (including in Return of the Jedi!). Hollismason posted:LMAO at Leela just slapping the poo poo out of this woman that screams. For no drat reason. Just pow! Really liking Leela as a companion. I was watching a recent interview Louise Jameson did after the latest Blueray set was announced (or maybe it was a clip from interviews which will appear on the set, which will be the season starting with Horror of Fang Rock), and she said the actress she slapped asked her to actually hit her. So she did. I'll spoil this next bit in case you haven't finished Fang Rock yet: It's one of the few Doctor Who stories where no characters survive aside from the Doctor and companion.
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Jan 23, 2024 02:24
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