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fart simpson posted:he made the nba all defensive team three times op he did, he didn't deserve it those are kobe reputation nods, not actually connected to his defensive ability
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Jan 22, 2024 16:45
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Lockback posted:He absolutely did, for some reason people think the last couple years he played in the 90s was how his whole career played out. in fact, arguable the most famous single play of his career was a defensive play against the pistons to save a playoff series
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Jan 22, 2024 16:46
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larry bird gambled for steals a lot which is not the same as playing good defense basically a taller allen iverson (but less excusably bad when it came to closing out on shooters and manning up in the post)
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Jan 22, 2024 16:47
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Declan MacManus posted:i mean curry was the only guy playing like curry there certainly wasn't anyone else shooting unassisted pullup threes, certainly not in portland
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Jan 22, 2024 16:47
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fart simpson posted:he made the nba all defensive team three times op kobe made twelve, so what
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Jan 22, 2024 16:47
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For KD to also be complaining about not being in the GOAT convo after his Nets tenure and now this middling Suns season also makes this pretty laughable. Sorry you're not literally the single best player to ever grace the court, you're just gonna have to settle for being a first ballot hall of famer, an MVP, 2x finals MVP, 2x champion, Rookie of the Year, 13x All Star...
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Jan 22, 2024 16:47
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Declan MacManus posted:he did, he didn't deserve it then why didn’t magic ever win one
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Jan 22, 2024 16:48
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larry bird was a great offensive player but i don't think we should care that much about Better Shooting Alex English in terms of the nba's overall leagacy
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Jan 22, 2024 16:49
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Panzeh posted:kobe made twelve, so what kobe was also a good defender
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Jan 22, 2024 16:49
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fart simpson posted:then why didn’t magic ever win one magic also did not play very good defense but he didn't have the advantage of being white
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Jan 22, 2024 16:49
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fart simpson posted:he was already there for the previous few years where the celtics were one of the worst teams in the league He had a monster year when Bird arrived though. Maxwell was like an ideal 2nd banana in that era, even if he couldn't really produce enough to carry a team. Panzeh posted:kobe made twelve, so what Kobe was also a really really good defensive player until the end of his career. A few of those all-defense teams were not actually earned, but most were.
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Jan 22, 2024 16:55
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Declan MacManus posted:larry bird was a great offensive player but i don't think we should care that much about Better Shooting Alex English in terms of the nba's overall leagacy larry bird ranked top 10 in the nba in defensive box +/- and defensive win shares for basically the whole first half of his career. because he ranks really high on the all time lists for stuff like defensive rebound %, steal %, block % fart simpson fucked around with this message at 16:59 on Jan 22, 2024 |
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Jan 22, 2024 16:56
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Declan MacManus posted:larry bird was a great offensive player but i don't think we should care that much about Better Shooting Alex English in terms of the nba's overall leagacy also this is just dumb. im not saying larry bird is actually the best player ever or anything, but him and magic literally redefined the nba and brought it back into popularity when it was dying. thats real legacy stuff
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Jan 22, 2024 17:04
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fart simpson posted:larry bird ranked top 10 in the nba in defensive box +/- and defensive win shares for basically the whole first half of his career. because he ranks really high on the all time lists for stuff like defensive rebound %, steal %, block % defensive stats are bad and larry bird was allowed to roam because he played with dennis johnson and kevin mchale anytime he was hunted for on defense (dominique), he got lit up even if the celtics won those games because of the overall strength of their roster
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Jan 22, 2024 17:08
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magic and bird had the ability to not use cocaine, which is impressive for time. edit: I hate how people joke about the 80s and coke but seriously, magic/bird helped make the league profitable today.
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Jan 22, 2024 17:08
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Declan MacManus posted:defensive stats are bad and larry bird was allowed to roam because he played with dennis johnson and kevin mchale Celtics were a good defensive team before those guys joined. They weren't before Bird joined
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Jan 22, 2024 17:12
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Panzeh posted:Phil Jackson, in the only ever correct thing he said with the Knicks was that Mahmoud Abdul-Rauf was taking pull up 3s in the 90s. It wasn't meant as an insult, more a comparison in playstyle. I know people took pullup threes, my point is nobody ever did it with the sheer volume and accuracy of Curry. Before Steph it was just a bad shot. Even Dame was like a 5-7% worse 3 point shooter than Steph on less attempts per game, every single season.
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Jan 22, 2024 17:20
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Curry has an incredible career but I think he was more the product of a changing environment than the catalyst. He was the early face of a new way of playing basketball, but I don't think he invented it. If he never made it to the NBA I think we'd still see the NBA game more or less evolve the same way.
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Jan 22, 2024 17:38
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dominique is a bad example because he didn’t arrive as a great player until the second half of birds career, after the big injuries mostly
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Jan 22, 2024 17:39
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Lockback posted:Celtics were a good defensive team before those guys joined. that’s not a very compelling argument the celtics also added pete maravich that year do you wanna call him a good defender too
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Jan 22, 2024 17:41
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the celtics also added the 2nd best gerald henderson of all time that season
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Jan 22, 2024 17:45
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Declan MacManus posted:that’s not a very compelling argument no because pete maravich want one of their key or impactful players
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Jan 22, 2024 17:49
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you’re just pretending to not understand the point
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Jan 22, 2024 17:49
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it seems to me like the defensive improvement is attributable to cedric maxwell improving from age 23 to age 24 and replacing their coach (dave cowens) with a good coach (bill fitch) and allowing their defensive anchor (dave cowens) to remove a major off court distraction (coaching the team) rather than a rookie larry bird magically turning a bottom 5 defense into a top 5 defense through hard work, indiana know how, and getting muscled down in the post by anyone resembling a modern nba 3 but who’s to say
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Jan 22, 2024 17:53
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Larry Bird is on the all time poo poo-talking team, too. I love to hear players' stories about him.
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Jan 22, 2024 17:54
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That's quite the strawman. It's reasonable to say there's multiple factors, but if Bird was bad defensively it wouldn't jive with both Bird's stats and the outcomes of the celtics teams on which he played heavy minutes. I don't think he was a DPOTY type guy but clearly he was at the minimum good and more likely a top defensive player. So say he was bad or didn't play defense is basically just saying your fee-fee's are a bigger factor than data, which is dumb.
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Jan 22, 2024 17:57
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the data is bad (defensive statistics are not nearly advanced enough to capture what makes defenders good or bad) and larry bird is one of the most documented players in nba history so you can watch the tape yourself i’m not saying larry bird was bad, his offense grossly outweighs his deficiencies on defense. but citing things like drb% or just looking at “well defense was bad before he showed up and now it’s good” is a disservice to the complexities of basketball it’s easy to assume larry bird was a good defender but his skills and the tape do not bear that out
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Jan 22, 2024 18:07
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the Data(lmao) of Why Defense Bad, Now Good? can also pretty easily be explained by larry bird being insanely easy to hide on defense in some caveman rear end era of halfcourt offense where they ran laughably few real actions, almost no pick and rolls, they trotted out like 2-3 Enforcers at every position who did nothing but rebound and foul, And nobody switched. just put larry bird on one of the 3 different guys the other team is fielding that shoot 0% from 3, 15% from midrange on 10 attempts a game, and have a devastating hook shot they get in the basket 18% of the time
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Jan 22, 2024 18:16
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Crazy stat I just read: Luka Dončić has assisted on 42.2 percent of his teammates’ made baskets? I have zero basis for comparison but that seems maybe historically high? dang
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Jan 22, 2024 18:30
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rivetz posted:Crazy stat I just read: Luka Dončić has assisted on 42.2 percent of his teammates’ made baskets? I have zero basis for comparison but that seems maybe historically high? dang You may want to check out both 2016 James harden and Russel westbrook
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Jan 22, 2024 18:45
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duodenum posted:Larry Bird is on the all time poo poo-talking team, too. I love to hear players' stories about him. There's a youtube channel dedicated to interviews with players talking about Larry poo poo talking them and its pretty great. One I saw recently (cant remember the player) talked about facing Bird in his rookie season, and getting mercilessly taunted. At one point Larry airballed a 35ft jumper and he tried to taunt back. "It doesn't matter that I missed, that wasn't the point. I can take that shot, airball it, and stay in the game. Bet you can't."
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Jan 22, 2024 18:47
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Who cares if a player was a good defender in the pre-3pt shot revolution? Being a good defender in Birds era just meant you were tall and could stand in the paint and rebound all of the wide open 16 footers that the plumbers were jacking up.
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Jan 22, 2024 18:47
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rivetz posted:Crazy stat I just read: Luka Dončić has assisted on 42.2 percent of his teammates’ made baskets? I have zero basis for comparison but that seems maybe historically high? dang This stat is "assist percentage"! It's high, but it's the fourth highest this year. Tyrese Haliburton is #1 at 52.1. John Stockton has the top two seasons ever, north of 57%, and six of the top ten.
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Jan 22, 2024 19:02
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Papes posted:Who cares if a player was a good defender in the pre-3pt shot revolution? Plumbers played against Bill Russell, not Larry Bird. I can't imagine numbers ever being useful to rate defensive players. Michael Cooper would have to face Mike one night, Clyde a couple days later, and then Larry on the weekend. I don't care who you are, that's going to be a problem for your defensive statistics.
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Jan 22, 2024 19:22
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duodenum posted:Plumbers played against Bill Russell, not Larry Bird. On the other hand, George Mikan dominated the NBA while being a travel agent and organizing the Lakers team travel
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Jan 22, 2024 19:30
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duodenum posted:Plumbers played against Bill Russell, not Larry Bird. We have really useful tracking-based defensive numbers now (like number of shots players are contesting, how much their contests affect FG%, deflections, etc) but getting that info about previous eras would involve getting film for every game played and some unbelievably tedious work for tens of thousands of games.
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Jan 22, 2024 19:31
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morestuff posted:I mean the Suns / D’Antoni are ultimately responsible in the modern game but the Warriors actually won with it so it became more popular to copy cat I think Don Nelson and the We Believe Warriors deserve credit as well, but I haven’t looked into the numbers. I don’t know about the NBA in particular, but in soccer these sort of tactical trends can often occur simultaneously within multiple different cultures. It would make a fun book to write, honestly. Mean Baby fucked around with this message at 19:49 on Jan 22, 2024 |
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Jan 22, 2024 19:46
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nachos posted:I know people took pullup threes, my point is nobody ever did it with the sheer volume and accuracy of Curry. Before Steph it was just a bad shot. Even Dame was like a 5-7% worse 3 point shooter than Steph on less attempts per game, every single season. ok but that didn't actually change the league so to speak because there still isn't another curry. all the other pull up three guys are in the dame/harden/trae tier and those guys are still pretty rare The overall trend toward taking a lot of threes had already started with the Nelson Warriors and Dantoni Suns and escalated with the Van Gundy Magic before Curry caught on
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Jan 22, 2024 19:50
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there is another curry his name is seth
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Jan 22, 2024 19:55
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Mia Wasikowska posted:there is another curry his name is seth cant argue with that
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Jan 22, 2024 19:56
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