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socialsecurity posted:This makes no sense, nothing in that article refers to the people living there being part of a state sponsored militia even a little bit, it's outside military forces and emergency responders doing a drill. Perhaps this is the source of your confusion, militia is a term with an actual definition that does not seem to apply to the men, women and children who lived in that neighborhood. Literally held in a kibbutz. If Kibbutz Be’eri had a plan to fight invaders until relieved by regular army, and Kibbutz Erez, despite hosting literal military exercises, did not, then accept my sincere and abject apology. I can only prove that Kibbutz Be’eri specifically anticipated military involvement, while Kibbutz Erez merely…drilled for it. Thank you for clarifying my confusion, I am eternally your servant. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jan 23, 2024 18:54
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Jai Guru Dave posted:Literally held in a kibbutz. Yeah it was an exercise the military and emergency responders held inside a neighborhood they thought might be attacked, if that was the qualification for "militia" then almost everywhere would be a militia. Like nothing you have posted has indicated there people inside that neighborhood were trained to fight or kill anyone.
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Jan 23, 2024 19:00
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Jai Guru Dave posted:Literally held in a kibbutz. Between "thou doth tho" and "I am eternally your servant", whats going on here
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Jan 23, 2024 19:00
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socialsecurity posted:Yeah it was an exercise the military and emergency responders held inside a neighborhood they thought might be attacked, if that was the qualification for "militia" then almost everywhere would be a militia. Like nothing you have posted has indicated there people inside that neighborhood were trained to fight or kill anyone. A key strategic objective of the drill, as referenced in the article, is to continue the illegal blockade of Gaza until Hamas is no longer in power. The drill has an explicit military objective beyond self defense.
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Jan 23, 2024 19:07
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Mean Baby posted:A key strategic objective of the drill, as referenced in the article, is to continue the illegal blockade of Gaza until Hamas is no longer in power. The drill has an explicit military objective beyond self defense. What about that makes the people in that neighborhood a state sponsored militia?
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Jan 23, 2024 19:15
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socialsecurity posted:Yeah it was an exercise the military and emergency responders held inside a neighborhood they thought might be attacked, if that was the qualification for "militia" then almost everywhere would be a militia. Like nothing you have posted has indicated there people inside that neighborhood were trained to fight or kill anyone. Again, you are absolutely correct to the smallest detail. I have nowhere in my possession a shred of evidence that Kibbutz Erez had residents trained for paramilitary operations, like Kibbutz Be’eri. I, in what I can only describe as a fugue state of madness and delirium, assumed that a kibbutz within the IDF definition of a battlefield that was hosting military exercises would similarly have weapons and those who have trained themselves to use them, and that said paramilitary would be deeply involved with those drills. Is it more or less likely that the resident of Kibbutz Erez stared in open-mouthed awe at the sight of guns and soldiers, and after the drill disavowed the whole thing as a horrid nightmare and went back to lives of doughy pacifism? Who can truly say. I am fortune’s fool. Be merciful in your victory. ….”neighborhood,” huh? Okay Jai Guru Dave fucked around with this message at 19:22 on Jan 23, 2024 |
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Jan 23, 2024 19:17
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Mean Baby posted:A key strategic objective of the drill, as referenced in the article, is to continue the illegal blockade of Gaza until Hamas is no longer in power. The drill has an explicit military objective beyond self defense. Can you quote where in the article? If it was "Amid soaring tension, Israel drills for Hamas attack on Gaza border kibbutz" article, I don't see what you mean? It seems to reference two separate but unrelated events, the drill is the first half; then it mentions Palestinian media claims that IDF bulldozers entered gaza to do work near a border fence; but otherwise doesn't say or even seem to imply that these are at all linked?
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Jan 23, 2024 19:17
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Jai Guru Dave posted:Vivian Silver died in a “safe room” built by the Israeli government because Be’eri was within four kilometers of the border. Also they had been attacked by incendiary kites and rockets and such. And also, as pointed out earlier, they considered themselves battlefield residents. You're wildly misusing the term "designated" if no government/major NGO officially declares it.
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Jan 23, 2024 19:24
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Jai Guru Dave posted:Again, you are absolutely correct to the smallest detail. I have nowhere in my possession a shred of evidence that Kibbutz Erez had residents trained for paramilitary operations, like Kibbutz Be’eri. I, in what I can only describe as a fugue state of madness and delirium, assumed that a kibbutz within the IDF definition of a battlefield that was hosting military exercises would similarly have weapons and those who have trained themselves to use them, and that said paramilitary would be deeply involved with those drills. If you have no evidence why did you pretend you did? Why go out your way to target these people living in their homes as militia members what is the point you are trying to make about that, is it that they were a valid target?
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Jan 23, 2024 19:28
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Why even bother with this argument? The root cause is Israel stealing land and forcing people they see as subhuman into conditions where lashing out with violence has become their only option. That Israel happily endangers its own civilians by inciting violence against itself and its people should make it clear that while some fault lies with the people committing violence, a larger portion of it lies on the state of Israel and the people who toil in its name.
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Jan 23, 2024 19:29
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Kalit posted:You're wildly misusing the term "designated" if no government/major NGO officially declares it. "In 2009, the [Israeli] government only built shelters for communities that were four kilometers from the border. The community I live in is four and a half kilometers from the border, so we didn't have shelters then," Silver explained. "Now we do, so psychologically we feel better, and we feel safer, and in fact, we are safer” Unless you’re saying the Israeli government is not legitimate, of course.
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Jan 23, 2024 19:33
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Jai Guru Dave posted:https://www.forbes.com/sites/alliso...sh=280685fd5827 Where did they declare it as an official battlefield? Designating somewhere as a battlefield is different than building preventative protection measures because an area is dangerous.....
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Jan 23, 2024 19:39
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socialsecurity posted:If you have no evidence why did you pretend you did? Why did I assume that a kibbutz hosting military drills would have weapons of some sort? Why, God? Why? quote:Why go out your way to target these people living in their homes as militia members what is the point you are trying to make about that, is it that they were a valid target? The reason I’m focusing on October 7, and Israeli constructive complicity, is that I think it’s worth taking Israel at its word for why they are committing genocide in Gaza. Because their own words and actions, taken absolutely at face value, condemn them.
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Jan 23, 2024 19:44
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Jai Guru Dave posted:This is a question that will haunt me forever. In fairness, the IDF frequently does drills inside neighbourhoods that don't involve residents at all. You could read it that way, and I've personally done drills, while I was in the IDF, in residential neighbourhoods where I can assure you, no civilians were armed. Having said that, the settlements on the Gaza borders almost definitely all had a readiness unit with weapons though as I've said before, that varies wildly on the scale of 'local armed militia with heavy firepower' and 'one guy with a radio and a rifle for a settlement of several hundred people'
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Jan 23, 2024 19:54
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Kalit posted:Where did they declare it as an official battlefield?
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Jan 23, 2024 19:54
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Miftan posted:‘one guy with a radio and a rifle for a settlement of several hundred people' “The team’s job, in case of an emergency, was to hold the fort until the Israeli Defence Forces (IDF) arrived.” So, not one guy with a radio and a rifle.
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Jan 23, 2024 20:04
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socialsecurity posted:Googling Palestine solidarity festival doesn't really come up with anything related to the event. It wasn't literally labelled as such but that was the allusion after the attacks. Plenty of people saying it was held adjacent to Gaza because it was a Peace festival for their benefit. quote:So the kibbutz being formed 60 years ago as a settlement means it can never change to be supportive or wanting peace? Jai Guru Dave posted:Kibbutz Be’eri: Be'eri had a dozen security volunteers and an armory with assault rifles, but they couldn't reach them because only the leader had the keys and he died in an initial shoot-out while checking the reports of suspicious activity outside the gates.
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Jan 23, 2024 21:27
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Marenghi posted:It wasn't literally labelled as such but that was the allusion after the attacks. Plenty of people saying it was held adjacent to Gaza because it was a Peace festival for their benefit. Who are these people?
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Jan 23, 2024 21:29
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Marenghi posted:It wasn't literally labelled as such but that was the allusion after the attacks. Plenty of people saying it was held adjacent to Gaza because it was a Peace festival for their benefit. It was moved when the original site location fell through, it wasn't held adjacent to Gaza for any symbolical reason: https://www.billboard.com/music/music-news/israel-music-festival-attack-artist-manager-account-massacre-1235436829/ quote:Universo Paralello was not origintally intended to take place at the Re’im site, with organizers moving it to this location only two days before it started, when another site in southern Israel fell through. Kalit fucked around with this message at 21:37 on Jan 23, 2024 |
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Jan 23, 2024 21:35
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socialsecurity posted:Who are these people? It was a common refrain in October in this thread, I don't know that it is worth digging up specific posts for what is objectively a pretty minor point, especially as the narratives in the immediate aftermath had little time to settle before the hot takes started. I don't think anyone with a real platform was saying it (it wasn't, like, an IDF line or anything), but it was part of the general smokescreen of misinfo that happens any time after a major news story breaks but before detailed information is available. At that time, I don't think the information about the festival being relocated shortly before the attack was widely spread, so people were essentially saying "why would Hamas spend a year of training to attack a rave" and then some people responded with "they are just that monstrous, that they would go after peace-loving hippies who were there to urge peace and inclusion between Israel and Palestine". Eventually this sort of thing led to the Martial Law update to the thread, of course. I don't think it really behooves us to go back in time to talk about inaccurate reporting from October though, when there is actual news from the current month that could be discussed. I also don't want to go find one particular poster to single out and quote when they may not even be still reading the thread - I can if that's really crucial here, in terms of sourcing "people have said", but I think it's pretty trivial to establish that at least ONE person has said most anything, so if the question is whether CNN or anyone was reporting it that way I think the answer is no, but there were probably some Tweets or TikToks that may now be deleted that were part of the general outrage in the week right after the attack happened, before the IDF response completely eclipsed the civilian casualty numbers and tamped down the initial wave of sympathy.
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Jan 23, 2024 22:02
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socialsecurity posted:Who are these people? I would assume it was so common I wouldn't have to explain. All over twitter and in the news, people were saying that. Often as an ironic derision towards Hamas because they attacked people who support Palestine. Just a few examples from this thread alone on the day after the attack. Xander77 posted:I'd rather no one on either side killed civilians, since not killing anyone at all is not an option. Collapsing Farts posted:Those were just civilians. Google Jeb Bush posted:The music festival was also notionally a peace festival. Naive, yes. Tasteless, also yes. But there's definitely that touch that these people were sympathetic to Palestine. I can only assume that you asked that in bad faith, or you genuinely weren't paying attention to media and social media around the time of the attack. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jan 23, 2024 22:12
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Marenghi posted:I would assume it was so common I wouldn't have to explain. All over twitter and in the news, people were saying that. Often as an ironic derision towards Hamas because they attacked people who support Palestine. Yeah not one of those people said what you said, I already posted a source itself where the rave claimed it was for peace. Not a single post you quoted said it was "for their benefit" which is why I was questioning it. Nothing there makes it sound like a solidary benefit or that it was directly related to the people in Gaza at all. Perhaps you are projecting extra meaning on the the things people say?
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Jan 23, 2024 22:16
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socialsecurity posted:Who are these people? A lot of the mainstream articles referred to it as the nova peace festival or something to that effect. I don't recall anyone with journalist credentials saying it was for benefit of Gaza or anything. It was a psytrance festival, so peace love unity etc are all common themes (bc that vibes with LSD use). Rarely do hippies actually deliver anything but platitudes. I could see people latching onto it as some sort of proof, but it's just marketing, basically. It would make sense of Israeli propaganda to run with that.
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Jan 23, 2024 22:25
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ummel posted:A lot of the mainstream articles referred to it as the nova peace festival or something to that effect. I don't recall anyone with journalist credentials saying it was for benefit of Gaza or anything. It was a psytrance festival, so peace love unity etc are all common themes (bc that vibes with LSD use). Rarely do hippies actually deliver anything but platitudes. I could see people latching onto it as some sort of proof, but it's just marketing, basically. It would make sense of Israeli propaganda to run with that. Yeah this seems like exactly what happened, never saw anyone of import note it as any Gaza solidarity thing, it was just a generic peace festival that got moved at the last minute.
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Jan 23, 2024 22:32
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It was not called a peace festival at all until after October 7. The word “peace” is nowhere on this ad. https://www.eventer.co.il/novaparalellotranslate I believe people referred to it afterwards as a peace festival in order to diminish the culpability of holding such an event in so dangerous a place.
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Jan 23, 2024 23:23
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Raenir Salazar posted:Can you quote where in the article? If it was "Amid soaring tension, Israel drills for Hamas attack on Gaza border kibbutz" article, I don't see what you mean? It seems to reference two separate but unrelated events, the drill is the first half; then it mentions Palestinian media claims that IDF bulldozers entered gaza to do work near a border fence; but otherwise doesn't say or even seem to imply that these are at all linked? It literally describes escalating tension throughout the article. The author clearly put them to together intentionally. The key point on their overall strategic objective is that Israel had no interest in peace and this training was apart of that strategy. There wouldn’t be a need to arm and train civilians if Hamas launched a military invasion of Israel was working in good faith on the many peace proposals Hamas has offered. “Economics alone can’t solve [Gaza’s problems]. Economics are not the fundamental solution,” Gilad said in his address. So long as Hamas rules the Gaza Strip, he added, there will not be peace there.
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Jan 23, 2024 23:31
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Jai Guru Dave posted:It was not called a peace festival at all until after October 7. The word “peace” is nowhere on this ad. What makes it a dangerous place, and why would they be culpable for it, what do you mean by culpable, do you mean liable, as in legally liable for damages to the victims in a civic sense or criminal liability for something like reckless negligence or culpable for something else? Mean Baby posted:It literally describes escalating tension throughout the article. The author clearly put them to together intentionally. This doesn't seem like an accurate description of the article. That last sentence seems entirely unrelated and divorced from the simple statement of facts that drills occurred at the kibbutz, Gilad has nothing to do with the kibbutz, he's (they? She?) are a official talking in general but not in specific about the drills? Edit, here I'll quote the full article, into separate quotes to make my counterpoint clear: quote:Amid soaring tension, Israel drills for Hamas attack on Gaza border kibbutz Next section, which seems completely unrelated to the first: quote:On Thursday Palestinian media said IDF bulldozers entered the Gaza Strip and carried out work near the border fence. The Ma’an News Agency, citing eyewitnesses, reported that four bulldozers moved several meters into the southern Gaza Strip in an area east of the city of Rafah and began leveling ground near the border. This seems clear cut to me, there seems to be no evidence that the article affirms your assertion that: quote:A key strategic objective of the drill, as referenced in the article, is to continue the illegal blockade of Gaza until Hamas is no longer in power. The drill has an explicit military objective beyond self defense. Evidence for this claim does not appear to be in the article. Raenir Salazar fucked around with this message at 23:39 on Jan 23, 2024 |
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Jan 23, 2024 23:32
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Raenir Salazar posted:What makes it a dangerous place, and why would they be culpable for it, what do you mean by culpable, do you mean liable, as in legally liable for damages to the victims in a civic sense or criminal liability for something like reckless negligence or culpable for something else? You are not a serious person if you are asking why being near the Israeli-Gaza border is dangerous. And, I debated quoting the whole second half but it felt redundant. Just because it is at the end doesn’t mean it is any more or less important. Given you are unsure why the border would even be dangerous, I think you might want to read more on the topic before asking these sort of questions or making these sort of assertions.
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Jan 23, 2024 23:41
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Raenir Salazar posted:What makes it a dangerous place, and why would they be culpable for it, what do you mean by culpable, do you mean liable, as in legally liable for damages to the victims in a civic sense or criminal liability for something like reckless negligence or culpable for something else?
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Jan 23, 2024 23:44
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Mean Baby posted:You are not a serious person if you are asking why being near the Israeli-Gaza border is dangerous. Obviously its dangerous, but that that wasn't my question, I wasn't asking "Is it dangerous?" I was asking "why is it dangerous?" and of course there's other parts to my question, what is being meant by "culpable" the definition in context seems unclear to me. Anyways, I quoted the full article in two parts to emphasize the fact that you seem to be arriving at a conclusion that the article doesn't provide enough evidence or grounds for your conclusion. It seems pretty clear to me that this obviously pro-Israeli article isn't trying to claim that the drills are a part of some grand strategy to continue the blockade of Gaza (why would they admit to this?), but that recognizing the common sense nature of the violence the tensions can result in (and did) that the drills are being taken as a precautionary measure in the event of the worst case scenario occurring, not because these drills in particular help advance some "strategy". And you're interpreting it to mean or be evidence of something more nefarious which I don't think is a justifiable conclusion with the plainly written words I quoted above. The second half is basically entirely irrelevant to the drills other than an assertion that there's tensions hence there's drills; its context for why the drills are seen as necessary. Jai Guru Dave posted:To answer your questions in reverse order: yes, yes, yes, any fair-to-middling dictionary should help, because holding it right by an enclave controlled by terrorists was a predictable risk to say the least, and what in God’s name is wrong with you? I don't understand what do you mean "what in god's name is wrong with you", it's just a clarifying question, I'm not saying it wasn't dangerous? I was just trying to understand your meaning as sometimes people use culpable with a different meaning in mind. Raenir Salazar fucked around with this message at 23:53 on Jan 23, 2024 |
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Jan 23, 2024 23:47
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Raenir Salazar posted:Obviously its dangerous, but that that wasn't my question, I wasn't asking "Is it dangerous?" I was asking "why is it dangerous?" and of course there's other parts to my question, what is being meant by "culpable" the definition in context seems unclear to me. So to put it succinctly, you are saying the obvious thing that they wouldn’t admit to it in those precise terms because it’s Israeli propaganda, but also we must go by what it literally says? Do I have that right? It is possible the author had a schizophrenic episode and decided to put paragraphs together with no relationship. But given we have to arbitrarily divide the article into separate sections rather than reading it holistically and deriving deeper interpretation of said propaganda, we’ll never know.
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Jan 24, 2024 00:00
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Raenir Salazar posted:Obviously its dangerous, but that that wasn't my question, I wasn't asking "Is it dangerous?" I was asking "why is it dangerous?" and of course there's other parts to my question, what is being meant by "culpable" the definition in context seems unclear to me. You're really asking why was it dangerous to hold it on the border of an open air prison containing an armed insurgency with a goal of national liberation?
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Jan 24, 2024 00:05
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Mean Baby posted:So to put it succinctly, you are saying the obvious thing that they wouldn’t admit to it in those precise terms because it’s Israeli propaganda, but also we must go by what it literally says? Do I have that right? Again, this is easy to resolve where in the article does it say that the drills are a part of a strategy to continue the blockade? And why is it unreasonable to conclude that the drills are a precaution against possible violence that may breakout as a result of the tensions directly pointed out in the article? Occam's Razor would suggest that the simplest explanation, that the article is presenting the central fact: "Drills are occurring" and then context, "there's tensions happening in the region and here's what our soldiers are doing about it and here's a statement from a gov't spokesperson on the matter." Your original statement is just simply untrue. quote:A key strategic objective of the drill, as referenced in the article, is to continue the illegal blockade of Gaza until Hamas is no longer in power. The drill has an explicit military objective beyond self defense. As nowhere does the article say this. This is your own inference. Marenghi posted:You're really asking why was it dangerous to hold it on the border of an open air prison containing an armed insurgency with a goal of national liberation? I mean yes, depending on how they answered I might've had a follow up question. Raenir Salazar fucked around with this message at 00:18 on Jan 24, 2024 |
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Jan 24, 2024 00:13
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Unless I badly missed this in previous reporting, those IDF soldiers killed while planting demolition charges in Gaza were purportedly enacting a plan to create a buffer zone/DMZ, according to Israeli officials interviewed anonymously by the NY Times. It's a developing story, so I'm posting an unlocked/paywall-free link to the latest updates. https://www.nytimes.com/live/2024/01/23/world/israel-hamas-gaza-news?unlocked_article_code=1.P00.arev.l7NHKs2WNQo4&smid=url-share Key takeaways: quote:Israel wants to demolish many of the Palestinian buildings close to the border in order to create what they describe as a “security zone,” according to the three officials, who spoke anonymously because they were not authorized to speak publicly about the issue. quote:The idea of a buffer zone gained such momentum in Israeli discourse that the State Department spoke out against it in December, because it would effectively reduce the size of Gaza, a process opposed by the U.S. administration.
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Jan 24, 2024 00:19
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Creating a DMZ that they alone oversee? That's just annexing part of Gaza. Seems they are clearly engaged in ethnic cleansing. There's no other phrase for it. Raenir Salazar posted:I mean yes, depending on how they answered I might've had a follow up question. Ah, so you do know why it was dangerous. Your question just wasn't in good faith.
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Jan 24, 2024 00:25
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Marenghi posted:Ah, so you do know why it was dangerous. Your question just wasn't in good faith. What? I only have *my* understanding of why something can be dangerous, that doesn't mean they have the same understanding; that's why it's a clarifying question, to determine if we are on the same page?
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Jan 24, 2024 00:32
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A 0.6 mile buffer zone would be about a 15% reduction in territory for the Gaza Strip, the equivalent of the US losing Washington, Oregon, California, Arizona, and New Mexico
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Jan 24, 2024 00:37
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Who knew you could annex part of a country by leveling it to the ground and calling the ruins a buffer zone. I wouldn't be surprised for the West to accept that justification. Yet I very much doubt they would hold back on calling it what it is, ethnic cleansing, if Russia had tried the same in Ukraine.
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Jan 24, 2024 00:42
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Raenir Salazar posted:What? I only have *my* understanding of why something can be dangerous, that doesn't mean they have the same understanding; that's why it's a clarifying question, to determine if we are on the same page? The rave organizers are culpable because they changed the location just beyond the fence of a concentration camp. They are culpable both for endangering their participants and for active participation in continuing the settler colonial project of Gaza
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Jan 24, 2024 02:28
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A big flaming stink posted:The rave organizers are culpable because they changed the location just beyond the fence of a concentration camp. They are culpable both for endangering their participants and for active participation in continuing the settler colonial project of Gaza I don't understand this as a response to what you quoted; but I definitely don't think they're "culpable for an active participation in continuing the settler colonial project of Gaza" that seems like nonsense to me. Normal citizens enjoying their day to day life, outside of Gaza have nothing to do with Gaza or with the suffering Palestinians go through and I don't think I saw anything about the rave having anything to do with politics? But maybe I missed this point if it was brought up in the last couple of pages; I only saw discussion as to whether it was a "for peace" event or not. Raenir Salazar fucked around with this message at 02:58 on Jan 24, 2024 |
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Jan 24, 2024 02:41
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