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g witch is kinda weird in this regard because it ends with them gay married but you dont get to like, see the wedding and theres no onscreen kiss or anything, so a kid who wants a certain level of bluntness might be disappointed even if it's a textual relationship.
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Jan 24, 2024 20:58
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oh The Magical Revolution of the Reincarnated Princess and the Genius Young Lady might be good, in terms of it as a show its a bit slow in parts but you do get a lot of the explicit relationship stuff and A Dramatic Kiss, and the last few eps genuinely have some solid relationship drama between the leads. and i cant think of anything thatd be inappropriate for a 13 year old who watched utena really. theres like One boob joke?
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Jan 24, 2024 21:05
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Julias posted:Bloom into You Falls squarely into the passionless handholding deniably lesbian problem, at least from skimming it. I keep hearing the manga is better, and I've recommended it to her and she'll read it sooner than later, but in the meantime she's asking he for stuff to watch and this is the first anime recommendation where I'm stumped. Endorph posted:the issue with seeking this out in anime is that a lot of yuri manga adaptations only get one season. for instance, something like bloom into you actually delves a lot into their developing relationship and isn't at all some kind of 'demure handholding,' but the anime only covers the early relationship stuff because it's only adapting about a third of the manga, so its like only watching the first third of a romance movie. so that is kinda all you get if you judge it just off the anime. it stillends with a kiss and stuff, just the anime alone is explicit, but you dont get the more complicated stuff just off the anime. She reads a bunch, lay out those recs as well, I'm happy to buy them for her if she can't find them at the city library.
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Jan 24, 2024 21:05
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re: Gundam Mercury, i think there was also some bullshit with the studio execs being like "no, they're... buddies..." after the ending, and i mean it's not the first time that happens, but the stories where producers or creators go on record downplaying the gay element don't usually end with the main couple actual legit legally gay married it's true that there's way more options available in manga rather than anime, though. like School Zone Girls (everyone is gay, everyone is stupid), which unfortunately is on indefinite hiatus but has plenty of chapters SexyBlindfold fucked around with this message at 21:14 on Jan 24, 2024 |
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Jan 24, 2024 21:11
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Slyphic posted:Falls squarely into the passionless handholding deniably lesbian problem, at least from skimming it. your skimming is incorrect. the relationship is kind of weird and passionless at the start but that's a textual element of the story that everyone keeps remarking on
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Jan 24, 2024 21:26
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if you think bloom into you is 'deniably lesbian' thats a lil weird, even just from the anime anyway, Bloom into You manga (you already know the premise) Still Sick (adult women, one of them draws yuri doujins and the other is her coworker, digs a bit into using art as escapism from society, only 3 volumes) Whisper me a Love Song (high school aged but pretty direct about things, it starts out with a slight misunderstanding (one girl wants to say she loves the other girl's music but it comes out as a love confession, the other girl confesses back, they start sort of dating) but it isn't really used as any kind of deniability, the whole premise is about exploring the gap between their feelings, and they start dating properly and fully understanding each other around volume 4) Now Loading (single volume, basically just cute fluff with some game industry stuff but its nice to get that with adults)
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Jan 24, 2024 21:26
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the relationship in bloom is passionless at the start but basically the entire thing everyone keeps talking about across the arc of the story the anime covers is how weirdly disconnected and passionless they are, because the circumstances around how they hooked up are weird and they're steadily realizing that they are actually attracted to each other more than they initially thought
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Jan 24, 2024 21:28
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also i wouldn't say i'm in love with the villainess is a doing a sub and dom thing or whatever. the point of the early going of the story is that the "bit" she's doing with her is something she has to ease up on if she wants to genuinely connect with her. if you're worried about what stuff in these is okay to show to a 13 year old i can get that but some of your judgments on these shows as a whole feel kinda premature and not quite giving them time to elaborate what they're doing with those initial ideas, which is going to make talking about any kind of yuri anime complicated cause a lot of them start off with stuff like that
The Colonel fucked around with this message at 21:34 on Jan 24, 2024 |
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Jan 24, 2024 21:31
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It's a fair assessment that I don't give shows time to get to what I want out of them. Guilty as charged. I don't want to 'get through' half a season to get to the good parts, I want the anime to start with the interesting parts. I watched the first two episodes of both Bloom and Villainess and then skimmed the next 3 or 4 and it looked like more of the same.
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Jan 24, 2024 21:43
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unfortunately there's no interesting part to get to without the part that was setting up the interesting part and both shows are about relationships that start off in kind of weird fuzzy areas because the people involved are weird and have issues
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Jan 24, 2024 21:45
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this is also why all yuri manga to anime adaptations being 12 episodes long is a bit of a problem hidamari sketch isn't explicitly romance but it's the closest i can think for a long running adaptation with heavy emphasis on gay relationships between the cast that doesn't have particularly heavy fanservice... well outside of the one wacky teacher lady so i guess she's the make or break part. and again it's not like, strictly a romance thing, a lot of it's still playing more on subtext and the most relevant characters for this are the more supporting half of the main four. their stuff is good tho The Colonel fucked around with this message at 21:54 on Jan 24, 2024 |
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Jan 24, 2024 21:47
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Slyphic posted:It's a fair assessment that I don't give shows time to get to what I want out of them. Guilty as charged. I don't want to 'get through' half a season to get to the good parts, I want the anime to start with the interesting parts. I watched the first two episodes of both Bloom and Villainess and then skimmed the next 3 or 4 and it looked like more of the same.
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Jan 24, 2024 21:49
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If it doesn't happen until the very end, that's like saying Evangelion is about meditating on a tram. A show is what the majority of it depicts; Bloom is a show wherein two girls avoid showing intimacy.
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Jan 24, 2024 21:57
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What? It's a slowburn romance. Romance isn't invalidated because the characters don't make out frame 1. The characters are intentionally awkward with each other as part of the story's development. What the gently caress is wrong with you? Seriously, you can have whatever stupid opinions you want, but the idea of you spreading your homophobia to your kid is disgusting.
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Jan 24, 2024 22:01
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star wars isn't about a star war because they don't fly spaceships at each other until the last 20 minutes. do you hear yourself?
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Jan 24, 2024 22:02
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the arc of bloom involving the two leads interacting with each other under the pretense of romance that burns into a genuine love for each other is not dissimilar from utena centering on the "fake" husband/wife dynamic between utena and anthy, to anthy coming to genuinely understand utena and how utena cares for her and being able to truly reciprocate it at the end. romance blooming out of what seemed like initially false pretenses is one of the oldest stories in the book
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Jan 24, 2024 22:02
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Endorph posted:star wars isn't about a star war because they don't fly spaceships at each other until the last 20 minutes. do you hear yourself? The Colonel posted:the arc of bloom involving the two leads interacting with each other under the pretense of romance that burns into a genuine love for each other is not dissimilar from utena centering on the "fake" husband/wife dynamic between utena and anthy, to anthy coming to genuinely understand utena and how utena cares for her and being able to truly reciprocate it at the end. romance blooming out of what seemed like initially false pretenses is one of the oldest stories in the book I am literally looking for more shows like Utena.
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Jan 24, 2024 22:09
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the characters in bloom into you are not hiding their queerness, the arc of the narrative is about them becoming comfortable with it and expressing it more openly
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Jan 24, 2024 22:10
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The characters in bloom into you aren't 'hiding their queerness' jesus christ. They are teenagers who are uncertain about their sexuality and romance. They develop into being more comfortable with it. The story is literally named 'bloom into you.' The idea that lesbian stories need to 'prove they're lesbian' via forcing them out of being able to do things any story can do is literal textbook homophobia.
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Jan 24, 2024 22:12
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also utena isnt even a proud lesbian she spends like half the show thinking shes attracted to guys thats kinda the whole crux of the last arc. like you dont even get anything that explicitly romantic between her and anthy until the movie.
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Jan 24, 2024 22:14
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Slyphic posted:Utena is a good story about a proud lesbian with a developing romance.
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Jan 24, 2024 22:17
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frankly i don't think there's reason to have that much issue with a lot of other stuff you could recommend if you're okay with utena. it's in roughly the same playing field as most other yuri, and it's easy to glance over some of its weirder moments but its own outlook on some ideas about gender and sexuality are more complicated and less strictly progressive than it can be remembered for. this isn't to say utena is bad actually but in most of the ways you could have issues with any other yuri work i have never felt utena has dodged those bulletsParacelsus posted:That's not really how I recall it. Juuri was a fairly open lesbian, but Utena was looking for her prince, there was some chemistry with Touga, and her relationship with Anthy was closer to friendly roommates for most of the run. The 2-naked-girls-car stuff came at the end of the movie. also worth noting that, juri's writing overall paints her relationship with being a lesbian, in fairly odd ways. she's one of the most interesting characters in the show but also one of the weirdest as far as how she's explored, she never gets the same kind of clear answer about herself and her future that utena and anthy do The Colonel fucked around with this message at 22:21 on Jan 24, 2024 |
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Jan 24, 2024 22:19
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Me: I'm looking for stories about girls who are comfortably romantically involved with each other and their developing relationship from that point on. You: texbook homophobia. Consider as explicit from this point on any comment I make is directed at anyone but you.
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Jan 24, 2024 22:25
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the lesson here isn't that the perfect lesbian narrative doesn't exist it's that all these kinds of stories are delving into complicated subjects and if you're too quick to judge based purely on your own perspective you're going to cut off most routes for any story to really express anything on these topics
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Jan 24, 2024 22:25
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Slyphic posted:Me: I'm looking for stories about girls who are comfortably romantically involved with each other and their developing relationship from that point on. she was angry you keep calling an explicit lesbian romance story plausibly deniable gaybait because it has a narrative arc. it doesn't feel good to have someone deny a story's meaning to you because it didn't fit the vague but oddly strict criteria that's been set up, especially when the example set is exactly the same sort of romantic arc.
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Jan 24, 2024 22:27
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Slyphic posted:Me: I'm looking for stories about girls who are comfortably romantically involved with each other and their developing relationship from that point on. You didn't say 'I just wanted this first thing,' you said it was 'deniably lesbian.' Those are different statements.
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Jan 24, 2024 22:27
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Endorph posted:i realize i got kinda heated and i apologize, and i hope you take my recs seriously despite that, but speaking as a lesbian ive had to deal with a lot of people downplaying explicitly lesbian art because it doesnt meet their arbitrary, inconsistent criteria and its an exhausting and everpresent form of homophobia that seems to mostly target lesbian creators. its fine to say you dont like certain types of writing but implying the intent of writing like bloom into you's is to be 'deniably lesbian' is incredibly hurtful and cruel for a number of reasons. and im not even an especially big fan of bloom into you, its just successful lesbian art made by a queer woman. painting it with that brush because you skimmed 6 episodes of an incomplete adaptation and decided it didn't meet your standards is, yeah, a little homophobic. Not intentionally so, but still. I don't think Bloom is intentionally how I described it, I think its the result of the truncated adaptation. Again, I recommended the manga to her.
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Jan 24, 2024 22:33
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Slyphic posted:I appreciate where you're coming from. My out and proud daughter that I love dearly is asking me for advice on something I've shared with her (my love of anime) and this if the first time I really don't have a good answer I like for her. I hesitate to say I'm looking for role models for her, but kinda? Something aspirational? But also messy and dramatic because that's part of romance. She also recently got dumped for the first time by a friend that never seemed to return as much affection as I saw her putting forth and that's got me a little critical here as well. That's very fair. I think you're coming at this from the right place, but you're hesitant about reccing certain things to her because you're worried it might feed her the wrong messages or reinforce negative feelings she already has. That's a totally fair impulse, especially given the described situation. You wanna build up her confidence when it comes to her sexuality via a medium she (presumably) enjoys. Not to give unsolicited parenting advice, but while, yeah, you've got the role of a filter here, I think you should be careful about casting too much value judgment on certain things, because she is gonna internalize that, too, even if you don't directly say it to her. The filter role is important, but so is helping her find a wide variety of things so she can form her own opinions and build up a stronger sense of self that way. At that age, that's the most important thing. Like I said, I apologize for getting a little heated, it's just a situation I ran into a lot myself when I was a teenager - imagine what the discourse on the internet surrounding gay manga was back in the freaking 2000s, lol, both from people who were way more obviously homophobic and the veneer of what was and wasn't 'acceptably lesbian' at a time when there was even more of a conflict between explicitness and 'anything that mentions sex exists is fetishistic.' So I projected a bit myself, sorry. I get where you're coming from, too. For another manga rec, I've only read the first few chapters of both of these, but, but Monologue Woven For You has the leads get together in chapter 2? And there's a lot of very explicit talk about the relationship from everyone around them, its' framed positively by everyone in the story. And Our Teachers are Dating, which, well, you can probably surmise the premise from the name. Two teachers are dating. They don't mention it to their students but a big part of it is the other faculty being supportive of them and giving them relationship advice. Both of them mostly just seem like fluff from what I read of them, but they're cute and, like I said, explicit and about the people around them supporting them, with them being pretty openly affectionate. For all these recs, you can probably find them online via random piracy sites and skim a few chapters yourself if you don't want to throw them out sight unseen.
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Jan 24, 2024 23:05
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SexyBlindfold posted:re: Gundam Mercury, i think there was also some bullshit with the studio execs being like "no, they're... buddies..." after the ending, and i mean it's not the first time that happens, but the stories where producers or creators go on record downplaying the gay element don't usually end with the main couple actual legit legally gay married Thankfully they dropped that and let the director confirm the marriage with the disc release. They even added the wedding rings to more scenes. EDIT: I should not have kept the reply window open.
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Jan 24, 2024 23:10
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It was a single exec in an interview saying that their relationship was 'open to interpretation' despite all the evidence to the contrary. No one involved in the actual production thought that from all indications.
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Jan 24, 2024 23:15
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yeah it was just bamco execs being stupid because it's a huge corporation and there's still people in the higher places of management who think it's societal taboo to depict gay people
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Jan 24, 2024 23:23
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the open to interpretation deal i would not at all cast as a real statement on gwitch itself in any capacity (part of why the statement blew up online is how hilariously and obviously incorrect it is), so much as some mostly-unrelated marketing dude said something stupid while the actual show production staff were putting out an artbook with this in it Endorph posted:g witch is kinda weird in this regard because it ends with them gay married but you dont get to like, see the wedding and theres no onscreen kiss or anything, so a kid who wants a certain level of bluntness might be disappointed even if it's a textual relationship. this is true though and worth keeping in mind wrt the original ask. i'd certainly describe gwitch as "a mecha show that has lesbians in it" much more than "a lesbian romance show where they also fight with giant robots." it does have the first episode end with one female protagonist telling the other female protagonist that the two of them are officially engaged while feathers and beams of light rain down from the heavens though, if you want to know exactly how explicit the lesbian romance is. also worth noting that the relationship between the two leads is a focal point of the first season, it just kinda gets dropped for 3/4ths of the second season ninjewtsu fucked around with this message at 23:54 on Jan 24, 2024 |
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Jan 24, 2024 23:51
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the touhou manga aren't exactly explicitly romantic but hell, i'll throw out a recommendation to check out touhou stuff also cause it's very accessible and basically endless as a space for open expression and the official manga are a lot of fun as an entry point
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Jan 24, 2024 23:54
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For manga, I’d recommend Doughnuts Under a Crescent Moon, Even Though We’re Adults, and Run Away With Me Girl. Doughnuts and Run Away are short and sweet, although the latter has some depictions of an abusive relationship (I don’t think there’s anything too much for a fourteen year old unless they’re kind of sheltered). Even Though We’re Adults isn’t finished in English yet (seven out of ten volumes have been released) and may require a bit more life experience than a fourteen year old to fully get? But it’s a remarkably kind story about how life is complicated. Our Dreams at Dusk is more about LGBTQ+ people in general with the main character being a gay teen, but there’s prominent lesbian characters and it’s a fantastic four volume series that made me cry. And if you liked Utena I think you should try out Rose of Versailles. Exactly how gay it is a matter of debate but it’s undeniably massively influential to the scene
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Jan 25, 2024 01:49
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versailles is, a really neat historical drama. would not recommend it for the gay given the most interesting part of the story for that ends with them carting off the girl who's gay for oscar literally an episode later and having her marry a guy off screen. oniisama e is the better riyoko ikeda adaptation for that kind of stuff but also not something i'd strictly recommend for it cause the last ten episodes kinda suck rear end. insanely cool right up to before that though
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Jan 25, 2024 02:03
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50% gay, 100% stylish anime
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Jan 25, 2024 02:19
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Endorph posted:also utena isnt even a proud lesbian she spends like half the show thinking shes attracted to guys thats kinda the whole crux of the last arc. like you dont even get anything that explicitly romantic between her and anthy until the movie. Paracelsus posted:That's not really how I recall it. Juuri was a fairly open lesbian, but Utena was looking for her prince, there was some chemistry with Touga, and her relationship with Anthy was closer to friendly roommates for most of the run. The 2-naked-girls-car stuff came at the end of the movie. Yeah, the previous posts confused me because this is 100% true. Utena is less overtly lesbian early on than most of the other recommendations. Of course, if the ask is instead for something like Utena in its entirety, there's not a great answer to that given how unique it is. edit: Regarding G-Witch, I don't think comments from whatever producer matter, the nature of their relationship is crystal clear by the end. But it is true that it takes a back seat to the plot for a long while, so that's important to consider. If she happens to like mecha though, it should be a slam dunk. runawayturtles fucked around with this message at 02:49 on Jan 25, 2024 |
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Jan 25, 2024 02:35
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As far as manga recs go, is "How do we relationship?" solid? I remember the first chapters being pretty good but hearing it starts to drag later on. Speaking of dragging later on, "The guy she was interested in wasn't a guy at all" has great art but has been taking a while getting anywhere. Still cute, though. Another option could be "She Loves to Cook, She Loves to Eat" - I think that one got a live-action adaptation.
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Jan 25, 2024 04:42
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how do we relationship is really good but as it goes on it becomes less of a relationship story and more about messy breakups and the characters trying to rebound in awkward ways. its very well done but if you approached it from the angle of a romance manga i can see being disappointed by that shift. edit: i think you were bringing it up unrelatedly but just as a note i wouldnt recommend it for op's kid cause theres a lot of scenes that are multiple pages of onscreen loving instead of just characters making out, cut to them in bed together with blankets up to their necks
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Jan 25, 2024 05:25
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Update from last night's Dad & Daughter anime club night: Slot 1 (anime more than 10 years old) - Yakitate Japan!: continuing from last year, we're about halfway through, it's new to both of us and still great Slot 2 (anime currently airing) - Dungeon Meshi: she has impeccable taste and likes it possibly more than I do. She told me was going to check the library to see if they have the manga this weekend. Slot 3 (daughter's choice) - Promised Neverland: she somehow managed to have this show recommended to her by friends but also didn't know the twist (going by her aghast face) but is into it and I'm along for the ride. Slot 4 (wildcard) - Bloom Into You: I didn't find a better suggestion. She said thanks Dad, it was OK, we should try a different show. Apparently what I missed from earlier this week is that she was asking about shows with Lesbian protagonists but that aren't a romance, just lesbians doing cool stuff. So I'm even more stumped than I was to start with. Also, to clarify Utena, I was imprecise in my language. Utena is an overtly queer anime from the first episode. Not a lesbian purity thing.
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Jan 25, 2024 16:02
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