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I guess I didn't mean to single out lenovo, and yeah I'm thinking of mostly the consumer laptop market as a whole. My friend has a business lenovo thats lasted forever.
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Jan 25, 2024 09:00
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Framework has the repairability of a Thinkpad or Latitude from 2003, and the rest is hype. When I worked for a computer manufacturer, our business line computers had parts available anywhere on Earth on the next business day for 5 years after the last one rolled off the assembly line after their 18 month production cycle, then available within 5-7 business days for another 18 months. The computers were designed so that the lowest bidding service provider could have their tech grunts replace any parts within 0.5-10 minutes with a single screwdriver on the laptops, or mostly without using tools on the desktops. Even after the 8 year official life spans you can get new old stock parts on eBay or used from recyclers, which I'm sure someone interested in wanting to repair their own computer would know how to do. Framework is nothing but marketing an idea that has existed for decades, but with a worse and more expensive implementation.
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Jan 25, 2024 12:31
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I've pre-ordered a framework laptop, sad to hear Linus is involved with them but I liked the pitch, I don't know how long the hype will last for but I quite like the modular nature of it, and as I own a 3d printer already some of the custom open source things ive seen being made on the forums seem pretty fun if even only from a hobbyist perspective. I'll come back in 3 years and post a review of it
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Jan 25, 2024 12:45
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My Dell Latitude is very repairable because I've had someone out three times to change bits of it, but it's still wasteful doing things like soldering the Wi-Fi and Bluetooth chip onto the board rather than putting it on a small card. It was about eight months old before all the soft-touch plastics on the palm rest looked like I ate food off it, and they can't be cleaned. Terrible design.
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Jan 25, 2024 12:48
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I think frameworks idea is pretty good. Not sure if I think it justifies the pricing though. Also remember watching a factory tour where they show that they assemble the Laptops for testing and then disassemble them again for shipping to the DIY customers. Which identifies their current primary target audience very clearly.
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Jan 25, 2024 12:52
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It's a neat idea but one that in practice doesn't really make much sense to me. I don't really need the different modules if my Thinkpad already has USB-A, USB-C, HDMI and audio jack by default. If I wanted to upgrade the CPU in a few years I could just sell this one and get a new laptop instead of buying a new motherboard (and then trying to sell that), and get all other improvements included too. As for repairability, I never had to repair a Thinkpad but if anything happen to it it's probably going to be liquid damage or a blown power supply mosfet or a bugged BIOS or something like that.
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Jan 25, 2024 13:09
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If you want repairability in a laptop, business laptops are the way to go. Precision's and latitudes are one of the best to get parts and replacement items for bar none. HP pro and elite books are pretty easy too.
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Jan 25, 2024 13:14
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mobby_6kl posted:It's a neat idea but one that in practice doesn't really make much sense to me. I don't really need the different modules if my Thinkpad already has USB-A, USB-C, HDMI and audio jack by default. If I wanted to upgrade the CPU in a few years I could just sell this one and get a new laptop instead of buying a new motherboard (and then trying to sell that), and get all other improvements included too. As for repairability, I never had to repair a Thinkpad but if anything happen to it it's probably going to be liquid damage or a blown power supply mosfet or a bugged BIOS or something like that. Selling it is something I hadn't thought of but yeah, selling an old Thinkpad seems real easy because people who just want a decent cheap laptop are always looking for used Thinkpads. Selling a Framework board, probably not.
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Jan 25, 2024 13:33
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It's a computer tinkerer fantasy. Let's take something similar that's already extremely modular, easy for the end user to service, and has very well established (one could say too well established*) standards that help ensure a high degree of compatibility and interoperability between disparate parts: desktop PCs. If you want to, you can swap parts willy nilly on most desktops, with the exceptions being some oddball OEMs that will have bespoke parts. And even there you can still replace major components like RAM and storage with little drama. And people do! It's great! gently caress, I totally tore mine down earlier this year to put in a new CPU, and in the process ended up also throwing in two new hard drives, an expansion card, and doubling the RAM. It really got some extra life out of it and kicked the can on a full refresh down the road for another few years. Your typical desktop PC, however, is never opened by the user. No one ever removes the CPU and re-pastes it. No one ever upgrades the RAM or puts in a new hard drive. It's used, and when it gets old, a new one is bought. Is that wasteful? Sure, but it's just not a feature that the vast majority of users care about. They need a basic appliance. I'm all for repairability and not having every chip soldered to the board, but this poo poo with swappable data ports and even the replaceable GPUs is just tinkerer nerd enthusiast stuff. It's for the kind of people who buy a gaming laptop and worry about happens in 3 years when they don't have the latest and greatest GPU any more, because they're upgrading their 3090 to a 4090 to a 5090 every time a new halo product launches. It's for the people who have opinions about thermal paste brands and re-paste both their CPUs and GPUs way more than necessary just because they want to. Which, in a vacuum, is fine. A niche product for niche consumers. The real issue is that the kind of massive tinkering opportunities that desktop PCs offer are only possible because of decades of standardization and many companies making modular parts that all work together. This is going to be just one little weird laptop company making its own little modules, not actual parts that interoperate with other arbitrary parts. Now, if Dell and HP and Apple etc. all adopted this as a standard and started manufacturing according to it? Sure, that would be awesome, but it's a loving pipe dream. It's a cool idea for a toy for tech nerds with enough money to be shopping boutique laptops in the first place. But that's it. fake edit: for the record the parts that really need to be user-serviceable are the RAM, battery, HD. Upgrading or replacing those in place is a reasonable thing for even fairly tech un-savvy consumers to do, and it can really extend the lifespan of machines that just need to be used for basic stuff. I've got a 2009-era Macbook Pro that's still kicking as an internet and writing machine due in large part to exactly that. The stuff that's nice to not be a glued-in headache to service is the keyboard/mouse and the screen. Those are the two big wear items that can get damaged easily through normal use and which if you gently caress them up you really need them fixed. There are inevitably fiddly ribbons and screws involved there, so beyond a lot of people, but still doable for the kind of person who is willing to dig in a bit. Beyond that you're deep into who cares territory, with an extremely small pool of people who are ever going to be interested in replacing the other components. *ATX needs to die, it's from 1995 and was originally based around pizza-box case configurations.
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Jan 25, 2024 14:10
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Honestly, as someone who works in ewaste and sees a ton of old hardware, I can say fairly confidently that the order of laptop robustness goes: 1) Lenovo (except x1 Carbons, which are a bit flimsier) 1.5) Apple, although this is highly dependent on the model. Good luck getting their ultra thin butterfly keyboard from 2018-2020 or so to register all keypresses 2) Dell 3) HP, although it can trade places with Dell depending on what model we’re talking All that being said, the big 4 are mostly very similar with Lenovo edging the rest out due to using non-poo poo keyboards and generally being pretty accessible to repair. However they could all trade places fairly easily And way down at the bottom of the list: 100) Every Toshiba satellite laptop ever made 101) the glossy HP DVxxxx series.
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Jan 25, 2024 14:22
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evobatman posted:Framework has the repairability of a Thinkpad or Latitude from 2003, and the rest is hype. Okay but 2003 was 20 years ago and we live in a very different age of computers now, where everything is precisely machined, compact and powerful. So obviously it stands out.
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Jan 25, 2024 14:23
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Beve Stuscemi posted:And way down at the bottom of the list: I contest this. My Satellite Pro from 1997 finally had its battery vomit its guts all over my desk just this week.
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Jan 25, 2024 14:29
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Kazinsal posted:I contest this. My Satellite Pro from 1997 finally had its battery vomit its guts all over my desk just this week. I mean, OK, but if we're gonna do that then we have to decide where Gateway 2000 fits in the list
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Jan 25, 2024 14:47
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Beve Stuscemi posted:I mean, OK, but if we're gonna do that then we have to decide where Gateway 2000 fits in the list 2000), obviously.
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Jan 25, 2024 15:42
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evobatman posted:Framework has the repairability of a Thinkpad or Latitude from 2003, and the rest is hype. Kinda hyperbolic, and also the point isn't just repairability but also being able to upgrade to a new MB/CPU with the same chassis. Thinkpads and Latitudes have never allowed this as far as I am aware. Cyrano4747 posted:This is going to be just one little weird laptop company making its own little modules, not actual parts that interoperate with other arbitrary parts. Now, if Dell and HP and Apple etc. all adopted this as a standard and started manufacturing according to it? Sure, that would be awesome, but it's a loving pipe dream. They'd have to start at "one little weird laptop company making its own little modules" no matter where it ends up, but I don't see why it's a foregone conclusion that they will fail and I'm not sure why it's so imperative that other companies make modules for them to succeed. It's not like Dell has a special proprietary USB port that you could mod onto your Thinkpad. Like, the whole personal computer segment started out as a niche product and look at where we are now. Desktop standards were something that happened incrementally, often starting out as "well this company does it this way and they won't/can't sue us so let's do that too" which is exactly the position Framework holds. Why so negative? Eletriarnation fucked around with this message at 15:54 on Jan 25, 2024 |
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Jan 25, 2024 15:45
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Eletriarnation posted:
Because it's a niche within a niche within a niche. The number of people who want to, or will get value out of, being able to replace their CPU is tiny. The vast, vast majority of people already don't replace the CPUs in their desktops, and that's an environment where things happened to pan out to where it's a pretty easy option (from the enthusiast standpoint). The bulk of non-enterprise users who have a use case for a desktop wouldn't notice the difference between a fully modular, well built normal PC and an iMac or one of the various dell etc iMac-alikes. Eletriarnation posted:and I'm not sure why it's so imperative that other companies make modules for them to succeed. It's not like Dell has a special proprietary USB port that you could mod onto your Thinkpad. Because the pitch - as being put forward by people like Linus - is that this is a system that you can upgrade down the road. Let's take the GPU, for example. Right now, on their website, you can buy this: https://frame.work/products/16-graphics-board-amd-radeon-rx-7700s That's all well and good but that is an incredibly bespoke part. You have one supplier, and if they don't make what you want you're SOL. It's not that Dell and Apple need to make parts that are comparable, it's that people besides Framework need to. If I want to replace the GPU in my desktop I have dozens of OEMs and board partners to choose from. There's a certain degree of competition over both price and features. And all of it is broadly inter-operable because they're all working from the same basic standards. The neat thing about Framework - and it is neat - is the way they are leaning into repairability. But that's about where it begins and ends, and as others have said isn't really any different from any other quality OEM that isn't expoxy'ing the entire unit into one blob that can never be serviced. edit: to be clear, I'm not trying to say you can't or shouldn't like a thing you like. If you're an enthusiast who wants to build your own laptop loving go for it. But it's not going to revolutionize consumer laptops and the things that you like are irrelevant for the vast majority of people out there.
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Jan 25, 2024 16:02
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Cyrano4747 posted:Because it's a niche within a niche within a niche. The number of people who want to, or will get value out of, being able to replace their CPU is tiny. Considering the success of AM4 and the 5800X3D, I am skeptical that upgradeable CPUs are a nonstarter as a market. They haven't been very successful with Intel for the last ten years, because it turns out that when you only allow one generation of upgrades on a motherboard and the replacement chip has the same core count with minimal IPC improvements, people usually just ask "what's the point". Give people real options to upgrade to something that's actually a lot better, and those options are popular! Also, the dynamics of desktops and laptops are different here. If you're buying a new CPU and MB you almost might as well just build a whole new desktop, then swap over your GPU and monitor. On a laptop, conversely, swapping over the GPU and monitor is impossible... until now! quote:That's all well and good but that is an incredibly bespoke part. You have one supplier, and if they don't make what you want you're SOL. It's not that Dell and Apple need to make parts that are comparable, it's that people besides Framework need to. If I want to replace the GPU in my desktop I have dozens of OEMs and board partners to choose from. There's a certain degree of competition over both price and features. And all of it is broadly inter-operable because they're all working from the same basic standards. I mean, I keep saying - a standard has to start with one product. It's absolutely no surprise that the first generation of Framework add-in GPU has only one supplier - the point is that there will be more models in future generations, and if NVidia or Intel Arc board partners want to get in on it they can.
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Jan 25, 2024 16:16
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The soldered parts stuff, as I understand it, isn't always cost cutting or planned obsolescence or whatnot, it's that soldering them on lets it take up less space, which is A Thing if you're trying to make the laptop as thin as possible
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Jan 25, 2024 16:20
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gradenko_2000 posted:The soldered parts stuff, as I understand it, isn't always cost cutting or planned obsolescence or whatnot, it's that soldering them on lets it take up less space, which is A Thing if you're trying to make the laptop as thin as possible Soldered ram is also able to maintain markedly higher frequency at lower voltages and power draw. It's hurting the Framework's performance quite a bit being forced to use DDR5-5600 instead of LPDDR5X-7500. Hell, 7500 is just the best the AMD chip supports, Meteorlake uses 8533 and 9600 is already shipping.
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Jan 25, 2024 16:24
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I think there was also difficulty hitting high/full MHz with sodimm RAM, but the CAMM2 standard should solve those problems.
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Jan 25, 2024 16:26
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Eletriarnation posted:Considering the success of AM4 and the 5800X3D, Those are only a success within the enthusiast market. Random googling tells me that Dell alone shipped 10.3 million PC units in Q3 2023 alone. They are the third biggest PC vendor. I can't find solid numbers on AMD's production of specific chips, but something tells me that they aren't shipping 10 million 5800x3d's a quarter. gently caress, the PS5 (which uses AMD chips) has only made 50 million since 2021 and I'll drat well guarantee that the 5800x3d isn't out-selling the PS5. Again, I say this as someone who slotted in a 5700x3d quite recently to breath life into an elderly socket 4 system. These products are enticing to the kind of people who have opinions about chip cache and can name more than 3 youtube PC hardware talking heads. These aren't the kinds of things that are going to revolutionize the industry. What I do hope is that Framework manages to put some extra pressure on manufacturers to make the parts that should be user serviceable - especially batteries - easier to replace, but honestly I'm skeptical about that as well. For every person who even knows what an iFixit is there are 100 who saw the latest advertisement about how the new Surface is a tenth of a mm thinner and three quarters of an ounce lighter and think that means quality.
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Jan 25, 2024 16:28
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Yeah, the lower performance issue (and thickness, actually) is why CAMM is a thing - I am sure Framework is looking at it. It's a valid design decision to solder/glue it all together to make it as thin as possible, and lots of folks will go for that - look at iPhones. Personally, I'm the kind of weirdo who misses my old Nexus 5X which was put together with screws instead of glue and could have a battery swapped in 10 minutes or a screen swapped in 30. I accept that the kind of product I want will be niche among smart phones if it exists at all, but my hope is that the different nature of the PC ecosystem will make it easier to carve out a segment for devices which thrive on modularity. Cyrano4747 posted:Those are only a success within the enthusiast market. Eletriarnation fucked around with this message at 16:39 on Jan 25, 2024 |
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Jan 25, 2024 16:29
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I'm hoping the EU mandates for cell phone repairability will go into effect sooner rather than later.
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Jan 25, 2024 16:36
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IIRC those new rules around battery repairability require manufacturers to either make it trivially replaceble OR require that a sealed in battery retain a certain amount of it's original capacity after a certain number of charge cycles in practice everyone's just going to tune their devices to hit the latter standard and batteries will remain sealed in
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Jan 25, 2024 16:42
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Eletriarnation posted:
The PC building market is already very precarious with super thin margins (see all the GPU manufacturers going out of business). As much as I'd love to see enough PC builder weirdos out there also want to be laptop weirdos, I don't see it. It's cool, but I don't think it'll ever become a standard in the way you describe. People who want to upgrade stuff because they want the bleeding edge also want to shove in as many fans as whatever to get the highest FPS possible, not have to worry about power efficiency too much, all that stuff. Doing this with a laptop means you're always stuck with a set of weird compromises. This seems like a fun toy for tinker hobbyists but it's not a standard. More to the point though, in 2024 a standard doesn't start with one product. In fact, it probably cant. This isn't the 1970's, where one weird product takes off and an industry forms around it. If you look at any new tech standard, it comes from a years-long beuracracy powered by consortia of the world's biggest tech companies, alongside research bodies and maybe even government funding (and in the case of USB-C, the legislative body of an entire continental bloc). Matter (a new smart home interoperability standard) is a good example - there's not some single launch product. It's the result of years of careful negotiation and coordiantion between big global players. Even then, Matter is being undermined in various ways by the competing interests of tech companies. USB-C took decades to be adopted, and even that's a mess of different nomenclatures and compatibilities. Never gonna happen off the back of a niche hobbyist laptop company. The only reason we even have standards in the PC building space is because of the way x86 computing has slowly evolved in a mostly unbroken line since 1978, and ATX took off in an era before things like SoC's and all-in-one soldered laptop designs. Sorry! edit: I guess what I'm saying is the framework seems cool and fun but buyers should 100% be aware that they are completely at the mercy of Framework's continued good health as a company in order to continue to get replaceable laptop parts down the line. The tech industry is littered with similar examples of modular design where people are left in the lurch after a company goes out of business, despite the promise of other companies bringing stuff to market. The Grumbles fucked around with this message at 16:51 on Jan 25, 2024 |
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Jan 25, 2024 16:44
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I think switching the CPU on a desktop PC is not worth the effort already. But switching a broken power supply, GPU, hard drive or CD-drive is a good thing to be able to do, and easy. And switching screen, keyboard and power cable is trivial. Similarly a laptop should have the most easily breakable parts as replaceable. Which are Screen, keyboard, sdd and battery. And 3 of which are already replaceable in many laptops. Framework plug-ins are nice in theory. But from what I have seen they are also exactly the wrong size. Large enough that there are much too few spaces on a Laptop. And small enough that you can't get ones with 2 or more outside ports, also the more complex ones reportedly overheat. Reusing a Laptop shell with a new MB sounds fun. But the opposite might even make more sense. They got the idea of using the old laptop MB as a micro-pc. But due to the lack of mass production the case alone is more expensive then a cheap new NUC. Actually I would say the the actually biggest jump in Laptop repairability was the switch from custom power supplies to USB-PD.
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Jan 25, 2024 16:53
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The Grumbles posted:The PC building market is already very precarious with super thin margins (see all the GPU manufacturers going out of business). As much as I'd love to see enough PC builder weirdos out there also want to be laptop weirdos, I don't see it. It's cool, but I don't think it'll ever become a standard in the way you describe. People who want to upgrade stuff because they want the bleeding edge also want to shove in as many fans as whatever to get the highest FPS possible, not have to worry about power efficiency too much, all that stuff. Doing this with a laptop means you're always stuck with a set of weird compromises. This seems like a fun toy for tinker hobbyists but it's not a standard. I think in general we're going to have to agree to disagree because so much of this is based on our variable definitions of success and vague bellyfeels about what gets you there, but it's really weird to cite USB-C as an example of "new standards don't start with just one product" because USB-C is a feature in a new version of an existing, very established standard which is maintained by a multi-company standards group. It's not surprising at all that it would take a while to get going and would have lots of adopters out of the gate. ATX is similar, although it came from Intel specifically - it's AT that was a de facto standard based on a particular IBM chassis.
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Jan 25, 2024 16:53
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waffle iron posted:I think there was also difficulty hitting high/full MHz with sodimm RAM, but the CAMM2 standard should solve those problems. Yep, compression attached memory is going to go a long way to bridging the gap. Unfortunately there are already multiple competing incompatible standards for compression-attached LPDDR, and it won't help all the people who have just invested in a framework with SODIMM support. Theoretically framework could release new motherboards with LPCAMM/CAMM2 support, I don't know how switching up memory standards would go over with their userbase though so they might need to coincide the change with the DDR6/LPDDR6 changeover.
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Jan 25, 2024 16:53
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it's also possible that i was radicalized as a diy repair enthusiast because i grew up with thinkpad batteries that just worked like this  more repair guides should be like this: https://www.ifixit.com/Guide/Lenovo+ThinkPad+T500+Battery+Replacement/40949
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Jan 25, 2024 16:54
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Apple also used to offer upgrade boards for some of the old Powerbooks, and from what I understand almost no-one bought those over just getting a whole new laptop. And this was the era where there actually were big performance boosts on a yearly basis which just isn't a thing any more. These days you can be running a 5-6 year old CPU and probably not even think about it because stuff just doesn't advance as fast as it used to.
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Jan 25, 2024 16:58
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Sure, but that's an argument against needing to buy new laptops at all - not just a problem for Framework specifically. They aren't trying to encourage their user base to buy new motherboards every generation like clockwork, they're just giving you the ability to laptop-of-Theseus by replacing only the chassis when it's worn out, or replacing only the CPU/MB[/RAM] when you want a performance upgrade. If you want to take the pragmatic business perspective, this improves user lock-in by making it cheaper/easier to just repair/upgrade a Framework laptop that you already have compared to buying an entire new laptop.
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Jan 25, 2024 17:08
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But it’s cheaper to buy 2 laptops than to buy a framework and upgrade it in 5 years.
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Jan 25, 2024 17:15
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If you buy a cheap laptop, yes. If you are buying a Thinkpad/XPS/Macbook, quite possibly not. Also, some users would prefer to keep the "same" machine and not have to migrate data/settings.
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Jan 25, 2024 17:16
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Settings on every OS are cloud stored now, I could buy a new MacBook and on first boot it would set my wallpaper and system settings from the iCloud backup. That just isn’t a thing any more.
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Jan 25, 2024 17:19
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It's great that it's that simple for your workflow, but some folks install applications with detailed configuration which might not necessarily be carried over by the OS's cloud backup. The fact that you don't deal with it doesn't mean it's "not a thing". e: Like... seriously, that's just an ignorant thing to say. Windows does not automatically reinstall apps for you unless they're from the MS app store. None of those apps that you reinstall manually will already be configured unless they store config in your Documents folder or something else that carries over (assuming you set up OneDrive, too) - not AppData. Virtual machines won't be there either... the list goes on. Linux users, what are those? I'm happy for you that life in Macland is so simple but come on. Eletriarnation fucked around with this message at 17:41 on Jan 25, 2024 |
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Jan 25, 2024 17:22
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njsykora posted:Apple also used to offer upgrade boards for some of the old Powerbooks, and from what I understand almost no-one bought those over just getting a whole new laptop. And this was the era where there actually were big performance boosts on a yearly basis which just isn't a thing any more. These days you can be running a 5-6 year old CPU and probably not even think about it because stuff just doesn't advance as fast as it used to. I upgraded my PC in 2020 because I wanted to upgrade the ram, and ran into the problem of the memory my motherboard/CPU used was old enough that only a few manufacturers still made it, and it was significantly more expensive than the "current" memory for half the amount.
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Jan 25, 2024 17:22
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i don't trust these newfangled clouds, they should stay in the sky not in the computer
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Jan 25, 2024 17:26
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Eletriarnation posted:I think in general we're going to have to agree to disagree because so much of this is based on our variable definitions of success and vague bellyfeels about what gets you there, but it's really weird to cite USB-C as an example of "new standards don't start with just one product" because USB-C is a feature in a new version of an existing, very established standard which is maintained by a multi-company standards group. It's not surprising at all that it would take a while to get going and would have lots of adopters out of the gate. ATX is similar, although it came from Intel specifically - it's AT that was a de facto standard based on a particular IBM chassis. All standards are brought about and also maintained by multi-company standards groups in the year of our lord 2024. We are in the age of the corpo. I cited USB-C - which as you say is a feature in an established standard, and still took well over a decade to go from idea to widely adopted implementation, but also cited a brand new standard (matter) which is both rife with problems and the product of multi-company wrangling. That's quite the set of odds for Framework's lego components for PC builders who also want to be laptop builders and are happy with perf tradeoffs to overcome. And again ATX came about like 28 years ago. That's my point. We're in a different era. For something to exist beyond fun proprietary niche it has to be negotiated through the hellscape of trans-continental consortia. Nobody is saying you shouldn't look forward to your new laptop. It's fine. Take a moment.
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Jan 25, 2024 17:55
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I have my doubts that framework will even be around in a few years.
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Jan 25, 2024 18:02
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Bro, I bought a new laptop a few months ago and it's a Thinkpad because I got a really good deal. You can see my posts about it in the laptop thread if you really want. I'm not personally invested in Framework's success by any metric, I just think it's a good idea. The single counterexample of Matter does not prove anything about how a different product in a different market will succeed or fail, which is what I meant by "vague bellyfeels". We're all just going to have to see what happens, but the fact that they're on a third generation of Intel and have added AMD motherboards as well as a larger chassis since starting makes me slightly optimistic.
Eletriarnation fucked around with this message at 18:08 on Jan 25, 2024 |
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Jan 25, 2024 18:04
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