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Spanish Manlove posted:Why is reliquary tower bad? In short, getting colored mana from your lands is more important than not discarding the eighth-best card in your hand, especially in a format where graveyards are a substantial resource and one of the cards in your hand may be more valuable in the graveyard anyway.
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Jan 25, 2024 14:10
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Spanish Manlove posted:Why is reliquary tower bad? Say you somehow drew 15 cards in a turn. If you're not able to turn the tide of the game with the best 7 of those, you're not doing it with 15+ either. Most of the time, it's just a colorless land. There's so many better options.
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Jan 25, 2024 14:33
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That being said, you could do way worse with these precons. There's some solid reprints in there and a couple of them have some fun concepts.
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Jan 25, 2024 14:39
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If you are discarding to hand size limits often enough that reliquary tower seems good, you really need to rethink your deck because you are not doing anything. You have achieved a state of inaction and are not advancing your plan or disrupting the plans of others. You simply exist except for the mandatory action of drawing a card. Or, you are drawing so many cards that you only play cards that draw cards and those draw more cards and discarding the cards you drew feels bad when it's all you do. There is not a state where Reliquary Tower provides an advantage. Play another basic. Temple of the False God has use in extremely land-heavy decks like Azusa and... it's just Azusa. If your commander costs so much that temple seems like it would help, play more rocks and dorks. That'll help more.
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Jan 25, 2024 16:44
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I use Temple in my colorless Eldrazi decks aaaaand… that’s it.
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Jan 25, 2024 17:00
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Temple of the False God is the worst card in Magic. It’s a dead card for the first 5 turns in 90% of decks and in those 10% of decks it’s a “good if” card at best. Your cards should be good, not good-if Same logic applies to Reliquary Tower. It’s good-if you need a dozen cards in hand and can enable that yourself. Otherwise you’re better off with a basic land that will create a useful color. I had players justify it by saying “what if my opponent draws me more than 7 cards?” My brother if you’re untapping with more than 7 cards in hand you’ve already won.
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Jan 25, 2024 17:15
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Balon posted:Temple of the False God is the worst card in Magic. It’s a dead card for the first 5 turns in 90% of decks and in those 10% of decks it’s a “good if” card at best. They need you on these reveal videos instead of these chucklefucks
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Jan 25, 2024 17:19
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I have Reliquary Tower in a deck because sometimes when you fling Boo at someone's face you get to draw 38 cards.
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Jan 25, 2024 18:45
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I got a cool reliquary tower as my bonus in a secret lair and smdh if you think I'm not putting that in some deck!! Yeah I only have RT in... two of my decks, which are all about drawing a bunch of cards, surprise!
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Jan 25, 2024 19:01
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I only have it in mono green selvala and nekusar, but never really put it in the other three color decks that I have
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Jan 25, 2024 19:37
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To be clear, not only is Reliquary Tower (and Thought Vessel, to an extent) bad for all the reasons listed but... BUT!!! This is a deck specifically based on using the graveyard as a resource with reanimator pieces. These cards are actively harmful to your game plan. This is like putting a Meekstone in the Dinosaur deck. It is actually very bad for what you are trying to do. It's mind-bogglong that they would think it's a good idea to put it in this deck, much less highlighting it in the video. That's just straight incompetent.
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Jan 25, 2024 19:58
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Toshimo posted:To be clear, not only is Reliquary Tower (and Thought Vessel, to an extent) bad for all the reasons listed but... lmao I just realized reliquary tower and totfg are in three of the four precons.
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Jan 25, 2024 20:03
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Didn't Gavin say it's to teach new players card evaluation? You know like giving your friend the dodgy controller so they learn how to conpensate.
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Jan 25, 2024 20:11
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If precons were already optimized, they would be a terrible starting point. (and if they had the changes a lot of people seem to want, they would also cost $250 each)
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Jan 25, 2024 20:15
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I think only one of my decks runs RT and that's izzet storm with veyran because the whole thing is pretty much ping effects and cantrips and occasionally I end up with a mitt full of cards that will win me the game next turn but I run out of mana this turn. Even then it's kinda meh.
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Jan 25, 2024 20:21
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generatrix posted:If precons were already optimized, they would be a terrible starting point. (and if they had the changes a lot of people seem to want, they would also cost $250 each) Neither of these have to be true. 1) You don't need a full fetch/shock/ABUR dual list to improve a precon and I don't think anyone other than the most unreasonable people are expecting that. It is, however, perfectly reasonable to want a manabase that isn't loaded to the brim with crappy CIPT lands and lands that don't do anything but make colorless mana. 2) Cards... don't have to be expensive. In fact, if they'd just put cards in decks that are actually good and are ones people actually want, not only will there be a huge demand for them, they can print those cards into the ground as staples and people would still keep buying them because they're that good. The price of the precon doesn't have to change just because they decided to make the whole thing good instead of a rough 50% of it being clunky garbage. Then again, there's been a marked improvement in precon construction over the past... eh, 3 years or so? So now they're at 50% clunkiness rather than ranging from 75% clunky to completely unplayable bulk like what used they used to print from like, 2016 back. Then again again, prices have also spiked up too. It's okay to want improvement instead of being okay with less. Better precons would be fantastic starting points. Can you imagine buying a precon filled with useful staples that people could use to build their own deck ideas with?
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Jan 25, 2024 20:30
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Ah but if good cards got put into precons then more people would play them and Commander would get more powerful instead of being a casual battecruiser party where nothing happens until turn 8 at minimum. Also can you imagine if cards like Dockside Extortionist showed up more often than in a single precon ever? Then they might be more accessible to more players and would show up in more games and then the people running the show would have to actually think about the impact of powerful cards on the format!
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Jan 25, 2024 20:34
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Framboise posted:Better precons would be fantastic starting points. Can you imagine buying a precon filled with useful staples that people could use to build their own deck ideas with? Loading the decks with duals would make the decks cost $2500... I said $250. Wizards have both demonstrated and outright stated, repeatedly, that if they put good cards in something that means they will raise the price. If they stuffed precons full of expensive "staples" then they would charge for it. I'm not saying that's right, or that they have to, but it is what they would do. The pattern for new players and precons is that they get one to play it because it's a functioning deck already, and then after playing it a while they upgrade it by swapping out cards. There needs to be some sub-optimal cards in them in order for that to happen. "Better" precons stuffed full of staples, even if you ignore reality and pretend they would stay at reasonable prices, would be awful for new players. It would mean you have to hit extremely high levels of both investment and game knowledge before you could build something on your own better than what is available off the shelf to a brand-new player. It would also mean that almost any modification you try to make to a precon would be a mistake that made the deck worse.
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Jan 25, 2024 20:43
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generatrix posted:Loading the decks with duals would make the decks cost $2500... I said $250. I do not have the energy to argue every piddly detail of this but I seriously think you are missing the point and I don't think there's a single point where I agree with you here. Framboise fucked around with this message at 20:57 on Jan 25, 2024 |
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Jan 25, 2024 20:47
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Toshimo posted:They need you on these reveal videos instead of these chucklefucks One day. Gotta get to Ambassador first. E: also the ones doing reveals are good people and my genuine friends so please be respectful kthx
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Jan 25, 2024 20:52
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The decks are overly expensive and bad on purpose and we should all be grateful for the learning experience Wizards so graciously offers us.
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Jan 25, 2024 20:54
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If every Thought Vessel was replaced with Planar Atlas, and every Temple/Tower were replaced with basics, the decks would be more playable and the "cost" of them would be lower.
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Jan 25, 2024 21:56
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Looking forward to the power creep coming and making Temple of the Reliquary where it has Spellbook effect and the land-restricted 2 mana ability. That's going to be an autoinclude. 
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Jan 25, 2024 22:05
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Toshimo posted:If every Thought Vessel was replaced with Planar Atlas, and every Temple/Tower were replaced with basics, the decks would be more playable and the "cost" of them would be lower. Eehhhhhhhhhhhhh. Planar Atlas ETBs tapped. The land filtering isn't always worth it.
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Jan 25, 2024 22:25
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generatrix posted:If precons were already optimized, they would be a terrible starting point. (and if they had the changes a lot of people seem to want, they would also cost $250 each) I feel like there are multiple steps between "this precon includes cards that do nothing at best and are actively harmful to your gameplan at worst" and "this deck is already perfect, it is optimized as much as you realistically can, it includes perfect mana and all the interaction and blah blah blah". Like, if we were to, say, put these two points at opposite ends of a 1-10 scale (1 being the "include Reliquary" side and 10 being the "perfect optimization" side), I think a good place for the precons to fall would be... idk, a 7?
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Jan 25, 2024 22:48
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As a relatively new Magic player, I would guess the reason Reliquary Tower is popular among new players/is put in precons aimed at them is that, for a lot of players that are new to TCGs, discarding cards just feels bad (similar to how a lot of new players hate being milled). That, and inexperienced players are more likely to discard poorly and chuck something they will actually need in a turn or two. That said, I'm probably searching for reason where there isn't any, because none of this accounts for why on earth WotC would put Reliquary Tower in a precon whose commander already removes the hand limit.
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Jan 26, 2024 00:12
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generatrix posted:Loading the decks with duals would make the decks cost $2500... I said $250. Do you think it costs WotC more to print a shockland than a basic land?
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Jan 26, 2024 00:35
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Ineffable posted:That said, I'm probably searching for reason where there isn't any, because none of this accounts for why on earth WotC would put Reliquary Tower in a precon whose commander already removes the hand limit. My first guess is people kind of hate it when they draw a bunch of cards with their commander and then get it removed and have to discard back down, so they put something in so you can at least tell yourself you have something in your deck to stop you from having to gently caress around with that. (Alternatively, because the deck's still built on having a shitload of card draw by having a billion clues and they wanted that release valve for new players that worry way too much about running out of hand space if you switch out to an alternate commander.)
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Jan 26, 2024 00:42
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Loucks posted:Do you think it costs WotC more to print a shockland than a basic land? generatrix posted:Wizards have both demonstrated and outright stated, repeatedly, that if they put good cards in something that means they will raise the price. If they stuffed precons full of expensive "staples" then they would charge for it. I'm not saying that's right, or that they have to, but it is what they would do. Again, I'm not saying I agree with the practice. I'm just being realistic (and remembering things that happened and were said in the last six months).
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Jan 26, 2024 00:52
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Ineffable posted:That said, I'm probably searching for reason where there isn't any, because none of this accounts for why on earth WotC would put Reliquary Tower in a precon whose commander already removes the hand limit. Zooming back out to 10,000ft view, completely ignoring the discussion context and the actual effect... any effect worth putting in your deck is worth putting an extra copy of? Commanders often, you know, die.
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Jan 26, 2024 00:59
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JawnV6 posted:Zooming back out to 10,000ft view, completely ignoring the discussion context and the actual effect... any effect worth putting in your deck is worth putting an extra copy of? Commanders often, you know, die. Killing an opponents Commander? When their entire strat is built around them? In Commander!?
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Jan 26, 2024 01:01
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MonsieurChoc posted:Killing an opponents Commander? When their entire strat is built around them? In Commander!? Not me casting Elesh Norn, Mother of Machines six times during a game.
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Jan 26, 2024 01:40
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I've seen entire commander games end because players started getting nasty and removing each other's commanders and permanents. It's savage to watch, a few steps above a mob of people playing 400 pickup.
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Jan 26, 2024 01:46
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Ineffable posted:As a relatively new Magic player, I would guess the reason Reliquary Tower is popular among new players/is put in precons aimed at them is that, for a lot of players that are new to TCGs, discarding cards just feels bad (similar to how a lot of new players hate being milled). That, and inexperienced players are more likely to discard poorly and chuck something they will actually need in a turn or two. So the thing is, any deck where the commander removes the hand limit is actually the best case for reliquary tower. Redundancy is important, and doubly so on the commander since your deck is (usually) focused on the effects it gives you. edit: mind you I'm not sold that it's a relevant effect in the first place, I'm just making the case on when it's most effective
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Jan 26, 2024 03:55
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generatrix posted:If they stuffed precons full of expensive "staples" then they would charge for it. I'm not saying that's right, or that they have to, but it is what they would do. They are stuffing precons full of value, now. Reprints that are above $3 according to MTGGoldfish that are in the latest precons: Naya: Beast Whisperer, Toski, Neheb the Eternal, Ohran Frostfang, Seedborn Muse, Three Visits, Jeska's Will (total: $76.34) Boros: Loran of the Third Path, Brash Taunter, Darien, King of Kjeldor, Fiendish Duo, Comeuppance, Tome of Legends, Ghostly Prison, Smuggler's Share (total: $81.25) Dimir: Phyrexian Metamorph, Doom Whisperer, Grave Titan, Sphinx of the Second Sun, Reanimate, Toxic Deluge, Rise of the Dark Realms, Animate Dead, Necromancy (first ever reprint) (total: 101.73) Bant: Hydroid Krasis, Academy Manufactor, Adrix and Nev, Alandra Sky Dreamer, Bennie Bracks, Chulane, Kappa Cannoneer, Koma, Finale of Revelation, Farewell, Organic Extinction, Mechanised Production, Teferi's Ageless Insight (total: 115.08) (plus no doubt at least one Koma's Coil token, which currently have a tcgmid of over $13!) Some of these (Fiendish Duo being the most obvious) are expensive due to lack of availability, but stuff like Three Visits they're definitely printing lots on purpose: 1999: Portal Three Kingdoms 2020: Commander Legends 2022: Commander Legends: Baldur's Gate 2023: Commander Masters 2023: Doctor Who Precons 2024: Murders at Karlov Manor Precons. As a comparison, the Commander Master's Precons which cost over twice as much as this current set contained, at launch, the following reprints worth at least $3 (taking numbers from TCC's "is it worth it to buy" video from before launch): Eldrazi: It That Betrays, Forsaken Monument, All Is Dust, Lightning Greaves (total: $16.35) Enchantments: Starfield of Nyx, Dryad of the Ilysian Grove, Grasp of Fate (total: $17.62, although Grasp of Fate is now worth pennies as it was reprinted at uncommon in WoE's enchanting tales) Slivers: Sliver Hivelord, Synapse Sliver, Windfall, Vanquisher's Banner, Realmwalker (total: $21.06) Planeswalkers: The Chain Veil, Spark Double, Mystic Gate, Silent Arbiter (total: $25.99) Now, the cards that cost a lot because of lack of supply (Fiendish Duo, Bennie Bracks, etc) will likely crash, but LCI and MKM have seen a dramatic change to the value of reprints in precons without an increase in price. Likewise, the new commander cards from CMM are likely to be more powerful than the ones from the latest set but it's unlikely to make up the vast difference between them.
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Jan 26, 2024 13:48
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generatrix posted:Loading the decks with duals would make the decks cost $2500... I said $250. The Thermian argument but for lovely business practices
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Jan 26, 2024 14:09
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The guys from Galaxy Quest?
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Jan 26, 2024 16:35
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Aphrodite posted:The guys from Galaxy Quest? Yeah, the term appears to mean "don't justify things in fiction because it's real in the fictional world" or something of that nature
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Jan 26, 2024 16:52
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Yeah I realise it's stretching the definition somewhat. Originally coined by fellow (former?) goon, Dan Olsen https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AxV8gAGmbtk MrL_JaKiri posted:Yeah, the term appears to mean "don't justify things in fiction because it's real in the fictional world" or something of that nature Right. The scarcity (and thus price) of desirable magic cards is a fiction created by WotC and so can't be used to justify future decisions to maintain that scarcity As to the specific argument about precons, I think it's total bunk because you could just as easily argue that a precon should show people how a good deck is built so they can apply those lessons to the hundreds of other commanders that aren't in precons. It's just post-hoc justification for selling a hobbled product Tarnop fucked around with this message at 17:09 on Jan 26, 2024 |
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Jan 26, 2024 17:06
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I think the main reason precons have temple of the false god and reliquary tower is because commander players, for whatever reason, want those cards. It's not a teaching moment. It's just putting cards players want in a product so that they will buy it.
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Jan 26, 2024 17:11
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