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you can try to bodyblock a stun something i'm not see players do much is if it's a last moment capture, body block bullets for the capturer
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Jan 25, 2024 16:35
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Stun gun is annoying but maybe we should let lights have something. Balance changes have been good, but I'd like to see some new content soon to help me understand their long term vision.
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Jan 25, 2024 17:01
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Hugoon Chavez posted:Stun gun is annoying but maybe we should let lights have something. No, let's not.
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Jan 25, 2024 17:10
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comedyblissoption posted:you can try to bodyblock a stun Body blocking as a heavy is an important skill, is this something mediums/lights try to do too?
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Jan 25, 2024 17:13
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withoutclass posted:Body blocking as a heavy is an important skill, is this something mediums/lights try to do too? blocking with mediums riot shield is pretty effective, I’ve done it
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Jan 25, 2024 18:04
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The only body blocks my teammates ever provide are when I'm tossing a grenade forward.
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Jan 25, 2024 18:16
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i've gotten a lot of last minute captures body blocking as medium while healing a teammate
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Jan 25, 2024 18:19
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I've done bodyblocking but you can just dash past that as a light so  My years of playing tank in OW has kinda ingrained it into me. Hugoon Chavez posted:Stun gun is annoying but maybe we should let lights have something. They can already unstealth and murder a medium before the average person has time to respond. They can also do the really annoying thing of getting the first capture, grabbing the vault and then spending the rest of the match just dashing and lobbing the vault, which i've seen multiple times now. dogstile fucked around with this message at 18:24 on Jan 25, 2024 |
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Jan 25, 2024 18:20
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The revive change is so much better. People are also less cavalier with trying for revives that are obviously not going to work out and end up in a team wipe anyway which is a nice bonus.
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Jan 25, 2024 18:59
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i like to bodyblock my team mate's nukes
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Jan 25, 2024 19:26
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imo either stungun shouldn't block captures or cashouts shouldn't finish if someone is capping. im fine with either but the combo is aggravating.
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Jan 26, 2024 01:35
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TheDeadlyShoe posted:imo either stungun shouldn't block captures or cashouts shouldn't finish if someone is capping. im fine with either but the combo is aggravating. The latter is definitely my preference. It really stinks to work hard to try and steal the cashout, succeed, and be defeated by the timer.
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Jan 26, 2024 01:39
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TheDeadlyShoe posted:imo either stungun shouldn't block captures or cashouts shouldn't finish if someone is capping. im fine with either but the combo is aggravating. Yea the fact an steal-in-progress doesnt push into 'overtime' is kind of criminal for those really sweat-inducing last second plays. It's what made those last second wins/losses in games like TF2 and OW so much better.
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Jan 26, 2024 02:29
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Herstory Begins Now posted:the issue is when you waste bullets shooting some invulnerable dude yes. invulnerability was barely perceptible for the revived but for everyone else their body is there a lot longer blocking bullets/projectiles which was mildly annoying but not rage inducing, but i'm glad they are trying to find a good balance. withoutclass posted:The latter is definitely my preference. It really stinks to work hard to try and steal the cashout, succeed, and be defeated by the timer. disagree. the whole philosophy of the game is risk/reward and all this does is now invalidate the efforts of the defenders. if you want that cash out, you gotta take a gamble and make that move. i could entertain the idea of a gadget that could roll back the cash out timer by something like 5 seconds on use. could add 5 seconds to a cash out on bank it? probably way too specific of a gadget tho. give it to light so they have a reason to exist in tournament mode.
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Jan 26, 2024 02:30
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capturing extending the timer would be more intuitive i think and not really change the tension of the situation as long as you can't extend it again
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Jan 26, 2024 02:35
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Too Many Birds posted:disagree. the whole philosophy of the game is risk/reward and all this does is now invalidate the efforts of the defenders. if you want that cash out, you gotta take a gamble and make that move. I can see this side to it. Doing just enough to delay the enemy and secure the cashout is something I've experienced too.
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Jan 26, 2024 02:38
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showerthought: just add the ability to the stun gun to stun the cash outs, stalling the timer essentially.
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Jan 26, 2024 02:57
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withoutclass posted:I can see this side to it. Doing just enough to delay the enemy and secure the cashout is something I've experienced too. Having it go over it's the exact same thing effectively, it just lightly extends the UI which right now is ambiguous and dumb
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Jan 26, 2024 03:06
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Too Many Birds posted:disagree. the whole philosophy of the game is risk/reward and all this does is now invalidate the efforts of the defenders. if you want that cash out, you gotta take a gamble and make that move. That goes both ways though - invalidating the efforts of the defender is bad, but so is invalidating the efforts of the attacker. It absolutely sucks to make a big play and lose it because the circle is impossible to accurately eyeball. Counter-strike doesn't give overtime either for defusing the bomb (because it's a loving bomb), but you have a clock that actually lets you know if you can possibly pull it off or if it's time to gently caress off and save your gun for the next round.
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Jan 26, 2024 03:11
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isndl posted:That goes both ways though - invalidating the efforts of the defender is bad, but so is invalidating the efforts of the attacker. It absolutely sucks to make a big play and lose it because the circle is impossible to accurately eyeball. Counter-strike doesn't give overtime either for defusing the bomb (because it's a loving bomb), but you have a clock that actually lets you know if you can possibly pull it off or if it's time to gently caress off and save your gun for the next round. again i think this is by design. having a timer takes away an element of the gamble. eventually you get a good feel for how much time is left on the circle, but sometimes you think that just maybe you can make it in time, which encourages risky and interesting plays. attackers have an opportunity to steal the cash out at any point during an engagement. if you think you are not going to have enough time to clear the defenders and any 3rd parties before time runs out, then you gotta take the risk and just go for the steal and hope your teammates can hold off any attempts to stop it. use the chaos of all 4 teams battling over a double loaded cash out to sneak a steal.
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Jan 26, 2024 03:45
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one of the funnest things in this game period is smashing into a team that is holding a point with like 20% left as hard as you possibly can
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Jan 26, 2024 03:57
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Too Many Birds posted:again i think this is by design. having a timer takes away an element of the gamble. eventually you get a good feel for how much time is left on the circle, but sometimes you think that just maybe you can make it in time, which encourages risky and interesting plays. It's definitely by design, though whether it's good design is the matter being debated. They explicitly want that winner-takes-all high stakes frenzy as the clock runs down, sure. Pretty much every other game has recognized that dead time where you can no longer meaningfully affect the outcome is generally unfun though, which is why overtime mechanics are so prevalent. It turns a late respawn from "we're hosed, guess I'll just tab out and AFK the rest of this" to "I need to haul rear end because someone might be able to buy enough time for me to get there to help". Some people want the timer to outright freeze during a steal which is a step too far in my opinion, but overtime for the duration of a steal seems fine. It adds only a handful of seconds to the timer at most and simplifies UI readability ("is there still time on the clock? You can do this then"). If the devs thought they needed to throw defending teams a bone they could have given them an immediate lump sum for initiating/stealing a cashout or made it trickle cash over time to reward holding it as long as possible. Instead the system is built around stealing as late as possible, so let's not arbitrarily make the last few seconds no longer matter.
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Jan 26, 2024 05:12
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isndl posted:overtime for the duration of a steal seems fine this would be perfect imo, I've had too many would-be steals denied by just getting there a skosh late
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Jan 26, 2024 06:11
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I feel like you avoid a bunch of kinda degenerate gameplay outcomes by not letting a single character steal/delay past the timer. As is, the timer gives a team maybe two shots to contest if they're quick and waste no time and, practically, the defending team has to win 2-3 fights, or at least remain able to pressure the objective for the entire time. Attacking teams have a lot of tools to disrupt or just outright blow up defensive setups and imo if you added 10 seconds to the timer potentially you'd see way, way fewer holds. generally i think the cashout period is very well designed to force an insane minute of action and it doesn't feel too heavily stacked in any particular direction (aside from the last team to engage having an advantage, but conversely they also have the least time) every second you add via stalling or delayed countdowns for contesting or w/e disincentivizes the team that fought for the vault and deposited it to fight for the vault/cashout spot. there should be a distinct advantage to winning the vault/cashout site fights before the proper cashout fight. I'm not a huge fan of balancing by metrics, but ideally you'd probably want the depositing team to have like a 5-10% win rate advantage over the contesting teams. idk the exact number, but you definitely want to incentivize the early fights so you don't just have a couple of minutes of dead time Herstory Begins Now fucked around with this message at 07:17 on Jan 26, 2024 |
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Jan 26, 2024 07:08
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Herstory Begins Now posted:I feel like you avoid a bunch of kinda degenerate gameplay outcomes by not letting a single character steal/delay past the timer. As is, the timer gives a team maybe two shots to contest if they're quick and waste no time and, practically, the defending team has to win 2-3 fights, or at least remain able to pressure the objective for the entire time. Attacking teams have a lot of tools to disrupt or just outright blow up defensive setups and imo if you added 10 seconds to the timer potentially you'd see way, way fewer holds. This point has nothing to do with the point that overtime is cool and gets rid of a portion of the countdown that is effectively dead time.
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Jan 26, 2024 07:40
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i remember playing games of OW where 2/3 of the playtime was overtime, that's not automatically preferable to like 5 seconds of dead time. in theory it seems cool and hype, in practice it just becomes a slog and games become unpredictably long i like that you get a few discrete plays per objective instead of something super dragged out Herstory Begins Now fucked around with this message at 08:08 on Jan 26, 2024 |
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Jan 26, 2024 08:05
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Herstory Begins Now posted:i remember playing games of OW where 2/3 of the playtime was overtime, that's not automatically preferable to like 5 seconds of dead time. in theory it seems cool and hype, in practice it just becomes a slog and games become unpredictably long That's impossible in the system people are suggesting. You get one shot at capping if you begin capping when the timer ends. If the cap gets interrupted for any reason it just ends and the cashout is awarded as per normal. You can't chain overtime like other games. This just eliminates dead times. And again this has nothing to do with there being a discrete number of opportunities. If you worry the extra 5 seconds an over time cap could add to the number of opportunities allotted to capture a point, then subtract 5 seconds from the nominal time.
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Jan 26, 2024 08:13
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at that point it seems like it is just a difference of what you're calling it tbh my response to that is probably overly influenced by how jaded I am towards anything that reminds me of OW Herstory Begins Now fucked around with this message at 08:20 on Jan 26, 2024 |
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Jan 26, 2024 08:17
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Herstory Begins Now posted:at that point it seems like it is just a difference of what you're calling it Its not, its mechanically different. But if at this point you still don't get it I really don't know how else I can describe it to you.
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Jan 26, 2024 08:23
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if you have a 130s timer, it takes 6 full seconds to contest, then you have 124 seconds to start the contest and keep it from being interrupted. if you change it to extend the timer for the length of the contest but take that same time, 6s, off of the total timer to preserve the # of potential fights then you have 124 seconds to start the contest with up to 6 seconds to finish the contest, but you fail if it is interrupted at any point. At that point it's the same system wrt contesting mechanics, though I'd agree that the latter is much more intuitive. The difference is that you get potentially a few less seconds to prep or revive or heal team mates up between cashout stages, which is what the dead time gets used for practically. Cumulatively you'd end up with +/- 18 seconds of recovery/setup/'dead' time, which is substantial (albeit not enough time to add another capture contest in most cases, I believe, but possibly in some?). what am I missing?
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Jan 26, 2024 09:10
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i don't think res-ing needs any invul time. you can pull bodies from so far away and super quick. snag it, go somewhere even halfway safe and res another idea i had: res-ing revives with 100 hp across the board. that gives lights a teeny tiny buff which they need in competitive play since there sustain is atrocious (i know, i play throwing knives) and nerfs heavies a tiny bit. they can still be healed and that incentivizes healing guns since i see so many freaking turrets all the time.
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Jan 26, 2024 09:28
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My buddy has been playing medium lately and I love flamer heavy. It's an incredible combo. We had a couple amazing games last night and each game he's hitting nearly 10k support score from keeping me alive, on top of having nearly as many kills/obj points etc. This was amplified when we got another healing medium on the team, causing us to win harder than I've ever won before. I think healing is pretty underated but not surprising if people wanna just shoot mans.
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Jan 26, 2024 13:35
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RaySmuckles posted:i don't think res-ing needs any invul time. you can pull bodies from so far away and super quick. snag it, go somewhere even halfway safe and res Yeah I agree with this though I'd say 75 health across the board. Right now rezzing a heavy is so good because they get up with so much health you can likely switch to your heal beam before they get melted. Honestly if you could rez someone with 1 health the defib would still be strong paired with the heal beam.
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Jan 26, 2024 17:52
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The difference is that not having overtime means there's uncertainty about exactly when you have to go in hard and that makes fights more exciting and unpredictable. Should you finish killing this guy or go for the steal? It's fun tension.
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Jan 26, 2024 17:55
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I'm a pro-overtime. Make it so if you stop capping game immediately ends and the holding team has it. Gives you time for hero plays, makes me stop doing that thing where I look at the bar and go "even if i wipe everyone and get on it, i can't physically change the outcome" and then I just go take a piss while the game finishes up.
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Jan 26, 2024 18:15
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dogstile posted:I'm a pro-overtime. Make it so if you stop capping game immediately ends and the holding team has it. yeah if the overtime lasts only as long as the stealer has their hand on the box and immediately cashes out if they stop after the timer would have expired, then I'm not really seeing a downside to this change. it's not adding time per se, it's just letting a player action resolve. and since you already can't capture as a team it just reinforces the mechanic of protecting the stealer at the box, amps it even.
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Jan 26, 2024 18:58
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So apparently you can just frontstab people with the dagger and the dash ability ? Had a very obnoxious finals just now where a light just instagibbed us by dashing and hitting us from the side: https://clips.twitch.tv/ObedientThoughtfulCheesecakePeanutButterJellyTime-2wFIkcr2H6EyfBm3 (starts mid-clip) His explanation on stream was that basically you can hit any part of your target with the dagger so long as your hitbox is behind your target's (?) you get the full 320 damage.
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Jan 26, 2024 20:08
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slicing up eyeballs posted:yeah if the overtime lasts only as long as the stealer has their hand on the box and immediately cashes out if they stop after the timer would have expired, then I'm not really seeing a downside to this change. it's not adding time per se, it's just letting a player action resolve. and since you already can't capture as a team it just reinforces the mechanic of protecting the stealer at the box, amps it even. i think instantly ending the match if the stealer has their hand removed from the box would just lead to more frustration. in this scenario, the teams who are most desperate to steal the cashout are going to be 3rd and 4th place. if 3rd place is stealing and puts the game into OT then 4th place is basically just poo poo out of luck, even if they had a player right there ready to start a steal in case 3rd place gets disrupted from their steal. there would have to be a brief window that would allow for another steal to commence. i get the arguments for OT, and honestly if it is implemented down the line it just means a change in the meta which is always fun to see. but all i see it doing is creating a meta where at 30 seconds everyone is hiding, and at 10 seconds left everyone knows that they have to dogpile the cashout and suddenly every gadget, projectile, and ability that people have been saving is now raining down on top of that fuckin' box. the game goes hard in the paint with the whole gambling aesthetic for a reason. you got to take the risks. your team has to get in on the action, the odds are incredibly against your favor but you are feeling lucky tonight. withoutclass posted:My buddy has been playing medium lately and I love flamer heavy. It's an incredible combo. We had a couple amazing games last night and each game he's hitting nearly 10k support score from keeping me alive, on top of having nearly as many kills/obj points etc. This was amplified when we got another healing medium on the team, causing us to win harder than I've ever won before. I think healing is pretty underated but not surprising if people wanna just shoot mans. welcome to the crew https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JdkS2TGjVIM&t=5s
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Jan 26, 2024 21:31
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Too Many Birds posted:i think instantly ending the match if the stealer has their hand removed from the box would just lead to more frustration. in this scenario, the teams who are most desperate to steal the cashout are going to be 3rd and 4th place. if 3rd place is stealing and puts the game into OT then 4th place is basically just poo poo out of luck, even if they had a player right there ready to start a steal in case 3rd place gets disrupted from their steal. there would have to be a brief window that would allow for another steal to commence. This makes literally no sense. Currently if someone steals with 6 seconds left (The time it takes to steal a cashout) its already exactly as you say it is. I have no idea how oyu think changing OT would alter that in any meaningfull way. I think a lot of you simply don't understand how OT would/should be implemented.
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Jan 26, 2024 21:47
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your whole thing about "dead time" makes literally no sense.
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Jan 26, 2024 21:56
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