Israel/Palestine

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Israel/Palestine

(Thread IKs: Main Paineframe, Irony Be My Shield, punishedkissinger)

Staluigi: Jun 22, 2021

Pentecoastal Elites posted:

I think "depopulate sectionally" is different from "incorporate under IDF control". I think the first is possible and the second, probably not.

if they take an entire section of gaza and cleanse the entire Palestinian population out with stern warnings and/or bomb murder, then lock it away from re-entry, it is incorporated, it is under IDF control, and the new question we'll bother with is carefully crafted belief that the process (for some reason or other) can't then be repeated for the remaining fraction of the land that is still considered palestinean gaza

i am coming away from this with even less faith in proclamations about what israel supposedly can't accomplish or what kinds of guerilla methods are unsolvable gordian knots for an increasingly brutal israel

# ? Jan 26, 2024 05:20

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# ? May 24, 2024 23:19

WhiskeyWhiskers: Oct 14, 2013; "هذا ليس عادلاً."
"هذا ليس عادلاً على الإطلاق."
"كان هناك وقت الآن."
(السياق الخفي: للقراءة)

Staluigi posted:

if they take an entire section of gaza and cleanse the entire Palestinian population out with stern warnings and/or bomb murder, then lock it away from re-entry, it is incorporated, it is under IDF control, and the new question we'll bother with is carefully crafted belief that the process (for some reason or other) can't then be repeated for the remaining fraction of the land that is still considered palestinean gaza

i am coming away from this with even less faith in proclamations about what israel supposedly can't accomplish or what kinds of guerilla methods are unsolvable gordian knots for an increasingly brutal israel

If they were to murder most of the 2.4 million Palestinians and make life completely impossible for them and the resistance, the problem would simply shift to, 'We can't defeat Lebanon and Hezbollah,' because there is no way there would be peace after they completed the genocide.

# ? Jan 26, 2024 06:30

Glah: Jun 21, 2005

Civilized Fishbot posted:

I think thr above quote is what the average Israeli believes, the difference being that I assume the above poster sees another solution, the only remotely ethical one, in the form of giving all Palestinians basic rights and for the average Israeli this is completely off the table.

And for this reason you will have far far far fewer soldiers saying "this is pointless, I don't know what I'm doing here, I am going to resist or attack the people making me fight here" like so many Americans during the Vietnam war. The Israeli soldiers know the threat (Hamas) and how their operations are supposed to resolve it (the destruction of Gaza and, as they are less and less reluctant to publicly recognize, the destruction of Palestine as a nation).

Even the Israelis resisting the draft, like Tal Mitnick, don't say "there is no threat" but "there is no military solution."

I think that for Israeli society, they are right now at the tipping point. Functionally Israeli establishment 100% acts according to this. For them the strategy is clear, neuter Palestinian population into functional non-existence and annex much of West Bank destroying all hopes for two state solution. Ethnic cleansing is very much the point here, and Oct. 7th gave them opportunity to put this strategy into accelerated practice. This is the firm belief of Israeli establishment and their voter base in settler movement and right wingers.

But I think that there are still large parts of Israeli population sceptical or opposed to settler ideology that has traditionally voted left wing. Today they vote for right wing in effect enabling ethnic cleansing policy of Israeli establishment. But unlike hard core right wingers and settler movement, I think that there's still some room for development of potential dissent there. Or I hope. But it is there that I can see there being potential for change stemming from within Israeli society, and in that way I can kinda see the comparisons to Americans in Vietnam. After all, those voters get conscripted too.

But even if miracle would happen, and Israel gets more peace oriented government someday in future, would it be too late? And it wouldn't remove the influence of strong settler movement from Israeli society so would it just mean going back to slow ethnic cleansing, annexation and oppression instead of today's fast one with as little hope for workable two state solution as with current government? Maybe, it would mean that the root cause of the conflict will never be solved by hoping for change within Israel.

# ? Jan 26, 2024 08:17

Ms Adequate: Oct 30, 2011; Baby even when I'm dead and gone
You will always be my only one, my only one
When the night is calling
No matter who I become
You will always be my only one, my only one, my only one
When the night is calling

Marenghi posted:

This is the first I/P conflict I've experienced where more people are being sympathetic to Palestine than to Israel. Maybe it's social media but more people are seeing Israel as butchers and bullies.

It might be a local thing, but even the leader of Ireland walked back from his statement that Israel cannot be accused of genocide because of the Holocaust. Maybe a week later he was saying that SAs case in the ICJ is valid. He's a windsock. 5 years ago backing Israel would have been the popular position, but people are viewing them more negatively in the light of what they are seeing happening in Gaza.

I would have had to bite my tongue discussing P/I with people but now more seem to share my viewpoint of the conflict.

I've seen the same, and I think it's especially notable because October 7th was a pretty massive attack that killed a lot of people. Israel has been playing up the 'deadliest day for Jews since WW2' for propaganda purposes but it really was a huge deal. The reason I extend this fairness and emphasize the scale is because despite that, they were finding far less sympathy from the start, at least in the circles I travel in. I have friends who during previous IDF operations would condemn them, yes, but today they are not doing any hand-wringing or equivocation, it's fully "gently caress Israel" all the way - despite the proximate inciting event seeming to give Israel a far greater well of sympathy to draw on.

# ? Jan 26, 2024 08:48

youcallthatatwist: Sep 22, 2013

Holy gently caress, the ICJ president explicitly rattling through every genocidal statement Israel has made, after referring to Palestinians as a protected ethnic group... It feels like I can start breathing again.

# ? Jan 26, 2024 13:28

Irony Be My Shield: Jul 29, 2012

FirstnameLastname posted:

If capable of it, yes. The holocaust would've 'succeeded' if not interrupted too, but the Nazis still would've been defeated when it came to war. genocide and war are different things, genocide isn't against an opponent, war is. Nazis fascists ethnosupremacists will have enthusiasm for committing a genocide, they won't for fighting a war they're not winning, they lose motivation when it gets hard and when it's not hard, they can't try hard enough because they think they've got it in the bag.
Israel isn't 100% Nazis (p. close tho ) but Israel is being steered by 100% Nazis, so the behavior of the state and institutions are going to be 100% Nazi, and the attitudes that cause fascist entities to form also systemically self-select for violent power tripping morons with connections over talent, skill, or merit. It forces them to lose they and will always find a loss given enough time because they are doing stuff incorrectly

There's a lot of contradictions in the ideology you've laid out but this seems like the most absurd one to me, and the one that's most relevant to this thread. Are you really trying to tell us that Nazis lose motivation and give up when they start losing a war? The same Nazis who started aggressively mobilizing 16-year-olds (and even younger kids) as the war turned against them? The same Nazis who did not surrender until drat near every inch of the country had fallen, many months after defeat was clearly inevitable?

Fascists have a terrifying enthusiasm for war and a delusional belief that the indomitable spirit of their people will always triumph. They were only defeated in World War 2 through overwhelming force essentially dismantling their countries. The idea that they'll just give up in the face of any kind of resistance is ludicrous magical thinking. This is another example:

Pentecoastal Elites posted:

I don't think it's the same as Vietnam but I also don't think it's so far away we can't draw comparisons. I think the dissent will arise from generally the same place, though not in the same form: the irreconcilable contradictions of the state. I think you're right in that israelis feel a live and salient threat, but I think that their -- I don't know how to put it -- cultural concord? national character? Has attenuated in the decades after WWII, and the system under threat is not built by and composed of utopian idealists or traumatized survivors, but the same sort of fully capitalized, fully atomized western consumer we've got in America. Maybe not to the degree you'd find in D.C., but israel is part of the imperial core and I think it is impossible to escape that cultural flattening. Maybe it's still too early for that to be completely true, but I interpret the overt cruelty, the massive push to the right, etc. not as a an expression of a renewed national unity in the face of a mortal threat, but the lashing out of a fascist state that is starting to get the feeling that the walls might be closing in. If that's true, I think the capacity for israelis to stomach the genocide and occupation is not very big.

How on earth does "the capacity for israelis to stomach the genocide and occupation is not very big" follow from declaring that Israel's actions are "the lashing out of a fascist state"? Fascist states have historically had a lot of stomach for both genocide and occupation! They see nothing wrong with it because they do not see their victims as human!

I really don't understand what definition of fascism is being used here. One that doesn't apply to any of the Axis Powers, I guess? Just a system of government that magically collapses on its own, and definitely doesn't take years of war and 10s of millions of deaths to bring to a stop?

WhiskeyWhiskers posted:

If they were to murder most of the 2.4 million Palestinians and make life completely impossible for them and the resistance, the problem would simply shift to, 'We can't defeat Lebanon and Hezbollah,' because there is no way there would be peace after they completed the genocide.

If Hezbollah thought that Israel couldn't defeat it then I think it would've gotten more involved, especially after Israel brazenly killed a Hamas leader in Lebanon. I don't think a war with Hezbollah would be easy for Israel (they are far larger and better equipped than Hamas, and wouldn't be starting the war in virtually the worst strategic position possible) but I'm sure they would be prepared to approach it with the same brutality they have in Gaza.

Irony Be My Shield fucked around with this message at 13:35 on Jan 26, 2024

# ? Jan 26, 2024 13:32

Darth Walrus: Feb 13, 2012

Despite the first post, this has ended up being an excellent livetweeted thread on the ICJ's statement today:

https://x.com/alonso_gd/status/1750842815485984881?s=46&t=ARI_L-v32Oind1-d9B3a3Q

Long story short, it seems that they accept that SA has brought a solid enough case to warrant consideration, so they will be advocating preventative measures (we don't know what yet), and Israel will officially gain the status of 'being tried for genocide' (which will likely have broad and significant international repercussions for the country and its government).

# ? Jan 26, 2024 13:37

Darth Walrus: Feb 13, 2012

https://x.com/rrrrnessa/status/1750862554509828493?s=46&t=ARI_L-v32Oind1-d9B3a3Q

Among other things, this means that the ICJ is specifically asking Israel to punish its own president for inciting genocide within a month.

# ? Jan 26, 2024 13:48

Marenghi: Oct 16, 2008; Don't trust the liberals,
they will betray you

socialsecurity posted:

Marenghi posted:
Wait are ISIS bad again? I thought they were good now because they are condemning Hamas. It's hard to keep up.
First 'Hamas is ISIS'. Now 'even ISIS condemn Hamas'.

Would be helpful if you could quote someone who has said this?

Back in October the head of COGAT said the following.

quote:

Hamas has turned into ISIS, and the residents of Gaza instead if being appalled, are celebrating.
Human animals must be treated as such. There will be no electricity and no water, there will be only destruction.

Later Netyanahu said this

quote:

Hamas is worse than ISIS. Only a genocidal terrorist organization is capable of such horrors.

Though this tweet was what prompted me to make my initial post.
https://x.com/DanelBenNamer/status/1745081450574065887?s=20

I've noticed a trend of you asking me to provide sources for well reported sentiments. Maybe if you're posting in the I/P thread you can find sources yourself, especially when they come from the head of government and security chief for Gaza.

# ? Jan 26, 2024 13:52

FlamingLiberal: Jan 18, 2009; Would you like to play a game?

Darth Walrus posted:

Despite the first post, this has ended up being an excellent livetweeted thread on the ICJ's statement today:

https://x.com/alonso_gd/status/1750842815485984881?s=46&t=ARI_L-v32Oind1-d9B3a3Q

Long story short, it seems that they accept that SA has brought a solid enough case to warrant consideration, so they will be advocating preventative measures (we don't know what yet), and Israel will officially gain the status of 'being tried for genocide' (which will likely have broad and significant international repercussions for the country and its government).

Yes and the judges talked about the public statements from Israeli government officials that had genocidal intent, which I think the world needs to understand is not an accident

# ? Jan 26, 2024 13:56

Irony Be My Shield: Jul 29, 2012

https://twitter.com/Alonso_GD/status/1750860976872681732
https://twitter.com/Alonso_GD/status/1750861193357475913
https://twitter.com/Alonso_GD/status/1750861527723196562

Al Jazeera posted:

Highly anticipated ruling over
The reading of the ruling has now ended.

The ICJ demanded Israel, among others, to try to contain death and damage in the Gaza Strip but stops short of ordering a ceasefire.

The ruling falls short of demanding a ceasefire or end to the conflict, so pretty weak. I guess Israel has to tell its soldiers not to genocide and write a report about it in a month.

# ? Jan 26, 2024 13:57

WhiskeyWhiskers: Oct 14, 2013; "هذا ليس عادلاً."
"هذا ليس عادلاً على الإطلاق."
"كان هناك وقت الآن."
(السياق الخفي: للقراءة)

Irony Be My Shield posted:

There's a lot of contradictions in the ideology you've laid out but this seems like the most absurd one to me, and the one that's most relevant to this thread. Are you really trying to tell us that Nazis lose motivation and give up when they start losing a war? The same Nazis who started aggressively mobilizing 16-year-olds (and even younger kids) as the war turned against them? The same Nazis who did not surrender until drat near every inch of the country had fallen, many months after defeat was clearly inevitable?

Fascists have a terrifying enthusiasm for war and a delusional belief that the indomitable spirit of their people will always triumph. They were only defeated in World War 2 through overwhelming force essentially dismantling their countries. The idea that they'll just give up in the face of any kind of resistance is ludicrous magical thinking. This is another example:

How on earth does "the capacity for israelis to stomach the genocide and occupation is not very big" follow from declaring that Israel's actions are "the lashing out of a fascist state"? Fascist states have historically had a lot of stomach for both genocide and occupation! They see nothing wrong with it because they do not see their victims as human!

I really don't understand what definition of fascism is being used here. One that doesn't apply to any of the Axis Powers, I guess? Just a system of government that magically collapses on its own, and definitely doesn't take years of war and 10s of millions of deaths to bring to a stop?

If Hezbollah thought that Israel couldn't defeat it then I think it would've gotten more involved, especially after Israel brazenly killed a Hamas leader in Lebanon. I don't think a war with Hezbollah would be easy for Israel (they are far larger and better equipped than Hamas, and wouldn't be starting the war in virtually the worst strategic position possible) but I'm sure they would be prepared to approach it with the same brutality they have in Gaza.

Being a brutal fascist state that has a large appetite for genocide and an extreme belief in their invincible army makes for an incredibly brittle opponent. It's precisely why they will lose. Brutality against civilians is extremely loving easy. It doesn't win wars though. They're still too scared to enter and clear tunnels.

# ? Jan 26, 2024 14:22

socialsecurity: Aug 30, 2003