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Adder Moray posted:But whether or not a soul can be redeemed needs to be answered. Or maybe I'm just projecting my own criticisms of the biblical myths onto the show 
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Jan 28, 2024 18:50
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Sera saying that there's 'a lot that you don't know' and then at no point offering that information, if she's physically even capable of it like Pearl from SU, is also a failure of that system. If it can only function with absolute secrecy about how it works and blind faith in authority to say it's working just fine, potentially by force, is it really functioning at all?
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Jan 28, 2024 19:44
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Yeah, that's a whole lot of the thrust of The Good Place too.
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Jan 28, 2024 19:50
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It’s very clear that Sera’s not the one in charge here and even angels are kept in the dark about a lot of things (kind of makes me wonder if we’ll ever meet the equivalent of God and see how much of an uncaring rear end in a top hat they are) But yeah, someone has to be saved at some point regardless if only to make the whole premise not a complete waste of time (I’m guessing a noble sacrifice by Angel during the upcoming attack on the hotel). For that matter, if she wasn’t hellborn it feels like Charlie herself could easily be up there.
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Jan 28, 2024 20:07
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Knowing Vivzie, I'm going to guess that God is a concept rather than an actual entity.
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Jan 28, 2024 20:35
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Iymarra posted:Knowing Vivzie, I'm going to guess that God is a concept rather than an actual entity. In that case I’m curious who’s above Sera that makes the rules but couldn’t be bothered to attend the meeting
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Jan 28, 2024 20:45
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Larryb posted:In that case I’m curious who’s above Sera that makes the rules but couldn’t be bothered to attend the meeting My assumption is no one. There's no one (conscious) upstairs. They don't know what they're doing. They're following a basic general notion of what they were meant for and have no further instructions. Sera doesn't know what gets people into heaven and she doesn't know what causes Angels to fall. She's cobbled together her beliefs and knowledge from her experience and is going based only on what she's cobbled together from that. She knows Lucifer did something that got him kicked out of heaven, so she shouldn't do anything that he did, right? She knows she's meant to protect the people in heaven, but protect them from what? Well, Adam says that hell is going to rebel so that must be it, because what else could it be, right?
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Jan 28, 2024 21:56
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it is very of the time to have the slapstick horny gently caress words cartoon contain a complex and trenchant critique of modern colonialism, and im, extremely here for it
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Jan 28, 2024 22:05
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Peanut Butler posted:it is very of the time to have the slapstick horny gently caress words cartoon contain a complex and trenchant critique of modern colonialism, and im, extremely here for it I mean, HB did the same thing at times to be fair (that’s what I like about this franchise honestly, it’s crass and horny but can also be surprisingly deep and good at making you feel for these literal hellspawn) On another note, I’m curious how Charlie’s going to move forward from here after what she learned at the meeting (it feels like this is something that would deal a major blow to her self confidence)
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Jan 28, 2024 22:16
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on a non-theological note, lucifer being introduced to the hotel's welcoming party and immediately beelining for the pets was extremely relatable
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Jan 28, 2024 22:30
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Catgirl Al Capone posted:i wonder whether Angel Dust's sister is gonna be A Character, she's supposed to be up in heaven right? She shows up a few times during the Welcome to Heaven song, she's the pink fluffy character. https://hazbinhotel.fandom.com/wiki/Molly One funny tidbit during Lucifer's visit is he whips out a golden accordian, likely a reference to Viv at one point saying Weird Al was her dream VA for Lucifer.
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Jan 28, 2024 23:10
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The Last Call posted:She shows up a few times during the Welcome to Heaven song, she's the pink fluffy character. Certainly explains his characterization.
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Jan 29, 2024 00:19
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God is the Soul King from Bleach. He exists, but he doesn't do poo poo and is mainly there to be exploited by the bad guys.
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Jan 29, 2024 03:20
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Just had the unpleasant experience of accidentally watching a chud review of the show. But in my defense she was extremely coy about the whole thing and it wasn't until she started making GBS threads all over Lil' Nas X it started to sink in I'd made a horrible error. Her creator description was also extremely coy and frankly if you're going to be a right wing youtuber it would be nice if you just put that poo poo in the description.
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Jan 29, 2024 03:31
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please stop posting about the Discourse, i can assure you nobody cares
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Jan 29, 2024 03:44
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Pyrotoad posted:Sera saying that there's 'a lot that you don't know' and then at no point offering that information, if she's physically even capable of it like Pearl from SU, is also a failure of that system. If it can only function with absolute secrecy about how it works and blind faith in authority to say it's working just fine, potentially by force, is it really functioning at all? i still think its gonna end up like WE HAPPY FEW where there is no real control of the system, its just been on a degrading auto pilots for who knows how long and no one really questions it. Peanut Butler posted:it is very of the time to have the slapstick horny gently caress words cartoon contain a complex and trenchant critique of modern colonialism, and im, extremely here for it honestly thats why i like her stuff. yeah its horny and has the bad words but like the characters are usually pretty likable and they actually give a gently caress about each other and try to support each other. sure the bad guys are bad guys but they sorta "realistically" lovely. most of them are types of people you have met or seen. Adder Moray posted:My assumption is no one. There's no one (conscious) upstairs. They don't know what they're doing. They're following a basic general notion of what they were meant for and have no further instructions. Sera doesn't know what gets people into heaven and she doesn't know what causes Angels to fall. She's cobbled together her beliefs and knowledge from her experience and is going based only on what she's cobbled together from that. She knows Lucifer did something that got him kicked out of heaven, so she shouldn't do anything that he did, right? She knows she's meant to protect the people in heaven, but protect them from what? Well, Adam says that hell is going to rebel so that must be it, because what else could it be, right? exactly. its the we happy few thing. there is no grand plan anymore, maybe one point there was some god or etc but that thrones empty and everything is on auto pilot. sure people could change it, but Sera won't because lawful dumbass and adam is psycho who gets off on hurting people with his kink army. Sure Hell could fight back but luci is depressive who lost hope and Most of hell is cyberpunk liberterian hell pit with all the casual violence. I am sure charlie will figure it out, but god knows what deals she will have to make. Flopsy posted:Just had the unpleasant experience of accidentally watching a chud review of the show. But in my defense she was extremely coy about the whole thing and it wasn't until she started making GBS threads all over Lil' Nas X it started to sink in I'd made a horrible error. Her creator description was also extremely coy and frankly if you're going to be a right wing youtuber it would be nice if you just put that poo poo in the description. I havent really seen any chuds talk about it or any kinda big blow ups, but i deleated my twitter and my discord feed is chill so lol. post something if like its on fox or some poo poo though.
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Jan 29, 2024 04:10
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took a break from my usual tv habits of lovely prestige dramas about sadbois to watch the Hazbin Hotel show, as it's been in my algorithm. my general thought, without knowing much about the world, is that it's at its strongest when it's focused on a central narrative instead of shoveling as much lore as it can into 20-minute episodes. there's also like eight overarching villains introduced in the first five episodes and they all have complex motivations i forget immediately because they're on screen for a min max. at times, it feels less like something that's meant to stand on its own as a show and more like something that is meant to fit into a larger constellation of works by the creator, by the fans, etc. all these bit characters would have their own wiki articles and comics that you could search out to learn more, which is something that works for social media but less so as a cohesive show. as someone who likes broadway, meanwhile, my take on the music is... mixed. i think the show aims for two songs per episode which leads to some really odd pacing and some extremely odd choices in who gets the spotlight. like, we get a full duel song in a boardroom and it feels very lifeless and pointless because none of what they're talking about seems to have any direct relationship to charlie's central issues or that of her friends. then we get another song by one of the same characters revealing she killed the angel enforcer but it's also like... why is this a big emotional moment? why is this particular information being conveyed in song form? a lot of it is telling us information the viewer already knew or could intuit and it's not clear why this is such a big reveal for a character who, again, is toward the bottom of the cast list. this isn't to say that there aren't good songs, songs that provide resolution, are well-paced, and seem to advance the characters' understanding of themselves or one another. "Losers, Baby" is probably the best example of this, being catchy, funny, and resolving a dispute between Angel Dust and Husk, but these highlights are buried by a lot of cruft. Angel Dust's earlier song, for example, feels very listless. it's just restating things we've already seen, except in musical form, and the individual lyrics are very vague and seem to have little to do with the specifics of the moment. it's seems like it has nothing to do with the action in the show. the last two episodes that are out i found to be much stronger than the four that came before because they really narrow in on a central conflict (that being Heaven v. Hell) and have very restrained character lists. if it can keep this focus, i'll chalk the earlier pieces up to over-excitement and a rough start and hope that the creators can get the opportunity to tell all the stories that are very clearly pouring out of them.
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Jan 29, 2024 04:13
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I'm almost 100% certain we're getting angels above Sera, her being scared proves it, and even in Lucifer's songs he shows monolithic angels which will probably be the equivalent of Archangels like Michael, Uriel, Gabriel, Raphael. Probably no God outside of maybe an unknown figure, but definitely a step above Sera.
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Jan 29, 2024 04:17
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QuoProQuid posted:took a break from my usual tv habits of lovely prestige dramas about sadbois to watch the Hazbin Hotel show, as it's been in my algorithm. I think it's obvious what hurts Hazbin the most is the limited amount of time they were given to get a narrative out. And given how networks behave towards animated shows that don't pull their weight these days I'll confess I get it. The work suffers for it but I understand why it's like this and the best they can hope for is a little mercy in the second season pacing wise.
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Jan 29, 2024 04:18
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Diabetic posted:I'm almost 100% certain we're getting angels above Sera, her being scared proves it, and even in Lucifer's songs he shows monolithic angels which will probably be the equivalent of Archangels like Michael, Uriel, Gabriel, Raphael. Probably no God outside of maybe an unknown figure, but definitely a step above Sera. Sera is one of those monolithic angels. She's the biggest one in the image of them working on heaven, you can tell by the crown and 6 wings and hair.
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Jan 29, 2024 04:25
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talking as an outsider, it just seems like the show is really complicating its narrative in ways that are impossible to deliver on. like, im not sure why there's this evil triumvirate that have beef with the radio demon and also the radio demon who has secret nefarious plans and also is part of a larger council who has their own plans which consists of individual members each keeping their own secrets, etc etc. it's just... a lot. like, i don't even know why the execution ticking clock/Adam is even present when it seems like it would be really easy and cut to the chase with, "Heaven greenlights the idea of a Hazbin Hotel because they have impossible standards and are certain she will fail (and when she succeeds, they arbitrarily change their rules to stop her)." all this other poo poo just adds so much complexity that it's impossible to really digest it all or take any individual element seriously. it would be so much easier to develop your loveable cast of misfits and the creepy demon supporting them if they weren't competing for screen time with B, C, D, E, and F plots.
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Jan 29, 2024 04:28
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QuoProQuid posted:talking as an outsider, it just seems like the show is really complicating its narrative in ways that are impossible to deliver on. like, im not sure why there's this evil triumvirate that have beef with the radio demon and also the radio demon who has secret nefarious plans and also is part of a larger council who has their own plans which consists of individual members each keeping their own secrets, etc etc. it's just... a lot. yeah i can see that. Helluva boss which is the youtube sister show, suffers from similar stuff espcially in season 1. season 2 is alot more focused character stuff and relationship building and slowly building toward some showdowns but a couple things from season 1 are still hanging about. anyway. my view is hazbin took some of the lessons from mistakes in HB season 1. I think the idea is that alot of that stuff will carry over into season 2 and either be wrapped up or expanded. from reading the interviews, it sounds like season 2 will mostly wrap up a bunch of the heaven stuff but who knows. My point is Hazbin is messy but as a fan of her other works, it could have been way way messier.
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Jan 29, 2024 04:38
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QuoProQuid posted:talking as an outsider, it just seems like the show is really complicating its narrative in ways that are impossible to deliver on. like, im not sure why there's this evil triumvirate that have beef with the radio demon and also the radio demon who has secret nefarious plans and also is part of a larger council who has their own plans which consists of individual members each keeping their own secrets, etc etc. it's just... a lot. Well for one; people have been following this show's development along with it's sister show for several years now so there is an audience who already knows who these characters are and understands their motivations. To a degree they are counting on that original audience to follow along no problem. The real issue is as I said before, they're not given a lot of time to flesh things out along with the ever present sword of Damocles hanging over their heads that they may not get renewed and need to get as much poo poo out as fast as they can. What the show needs badly is character driven filler sprinkled with plot development in between. They don't have that luxury right now. Hopefully they will in the future since the show is doing gangbusters.
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Jan 29, 2024 04:39
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Flopsy posted:Well for one; people have been following this show's development along with it's sister show for several years now so there is an audience who already knows who these characters are and understands their motivations. To a degree they are counting on that original audience to follow along no problem. The real issue is as I said before, they're not given a lot of time to flesh things out along with the ever present sword of Damocles hanging over their heads that they may not get renewed and need to get as much poo poo out as fast as they can. What the show needs badly is character driven filler sprinkled with plot development in between. They don't have that luxury right now. Hopefully they will in the future since the show is doing gangbusters. i think they get 4 seasons. or Viv decides on how many seasons she wants. she already decided HB has 4 so i can see her figuring out where she wants to plot to go while working 2 and giving the executives the answer. i am guessing we will know later this year. but yeah. i think the show need like 12 episodes as seaons and like 4 episodes that are character filler and growth and stuff. Helluva boss is able to do that and thats partly why season 2 has been mostly good because its slowed down alot let charaters grow. they also dont have to worry about Big Amazon killing the show. though i think A24 is gonna provide a bunch of protection, along with the show doing very very well.
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Jan 29, 2024 04:45
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I don't think the show's made any critical missteps yet, though its execution has been questionable at moments, but if the thing doesn't somehow manage to tie everything together I feel this is going to be a case of it being very easy to look back and see all the things it was doing wrong where we currently are. They show began spinning a lot of plates very fast, and I'm expecting a few of them to fall moving forwards.
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Jan 29, 2024 04:53
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QuoProQuid posted:like, i don't even know why the execution ticking clock/Adam is even present when it seems like it would be really easy and cut to the chase with, "Heaven greenlights the idea of a Hazbin Hotel because they have impossible standards and are certain she will fail (and when she succeeds, they arbitrarily change their rules to stop her)." all this other poo poo just adds so much complexity that it's impossible to really digest it all or take any individual element seriously. Well the answer to this is pretty simple: Charlie's motivating factor is the exterminations. She didn't start the hotel to save people from hell (though I expect that will be its goal going forward and the exterminations will end by the end of season one), hell is her home. She started it to reduce the population of hell (which is the reason hell has been given for it happening) without having to see a bunch of her people killed.
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Jan 29, 2024 04:58
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Oxxidation posted:please stop posting about the Discourse, i can assure you nobody cares It says something that the comparisons to contemporary politics are probably a less unwelcome topic than the Critical Discourse around this show. One of those things where it's gonna be a while if ever you can have any actual discussion of things because of the completely deranged hatedom that seems to permeate Twitter. Like D&D 4e and Zack Snyder.
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Jan 29, 2024 04:59
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Ohmygod there's a Québécois dub. And it is full of Québécois French.
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Jan 29, 2024 05:07
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I feel like the extermination are also necessary to make her seem less obnoxious, because a lot of her character traits and preachy attitude would seem insufferable if she just wanted to save people from living in Hell where sinners like Angel seem pretty okay with it at first before you dig into their trauma. Without the threat of the yearly purge looming overhead, it would just be Charlie forcibly inserting herself into other peoples' lives under the belief that she alone knows how to fix all of their problems, as opposed to a clumsy, desperate attempt to find a way to save Angel – because even if he would survive the upcoming extermination with Valentino's "help", he is meant to be an example and not the exception. That he is just as awful (with the potential to be good) as thousands of other less privileged/famous sinners who get slaughtered every year.
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Jan 29, 2024 05:10
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I forget, was the whole purge thing alluded to at all in the original pilot or was that just something they added when it went to series?
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Jan 29, 2024 05:32
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Generic American posted:I feel like the extermination are also necessary to make her seem less obnoxious, because a lot of her character traits and preachy attitude would seem insufferable if she just wanted to save people from living in Hell where sinners like Angel seem pretty okay with it at first before you dig into their trauma. good point, charlie doesn't seem to have many issues with hell per se other than the routine slaughtering of its residents and the fact that most of said residents are also clearly miserable. she'd be perfectly fine trying to improve her home if heaven didn't keep killing all her neighbors just because they were there
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Jan 29, 2024 05:33
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Larryb posted:I forget, was the whole purge thing alluded to at all in the original pilot or was that just something they added when it went to series? We just rewatched it because I had forgotten a ton of what the pilot actually set up; it takes place the day after the purge which is why Sir Pentious is making his move to claim turf vacated by all the recently exterminated souls.
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Jan 29, 2024 05:44
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Oxxidation posted:good point, charlie doesn't seem to have many issues with hell per se other than the routine slaughtering of its residents and the fact that most of said residents are also clearly miserable. she'd be perfectly fine trying to improve her home if heaven didn't keep killing all her neighbors just because they were there I feel like if the redemption angle doesn't work out--which it may not for a while because Sera seems scared shitless of upending the current status quo--I could see Charlie's next big push being towards improving the state of her home and getting into poo poo with overlords for it. Like Vaggie said she's the heir to the throne and is MUCH more proactive and involved than her father and her mother is currently not in the picture. I feel like the entire series could just be Charlie putting on her big girl pants and essentially stepping up to rule hell properly with a balance of compassion and actually putting her foot down when sinners try to get uppity with her. Charlie's biggest weakness is she's a chronic people pleaser, if she can grow out that neurosis of having to be liked and embrace she's a being of Godlike power who doesn't need to take this poo poo I could see her making an excellent Queen herself.
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Jan 29, 2024 05:47
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I mean Hell doesn't seem all the bad tbh, yeah you can get ripped limb from limb but you regenerate eventually and there are vending machines that just hand out PCP.
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Jan 29, 2024 05:48
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Funky Valentine posted:I mean Hell doesn't seem all the bad tbh, yeah you can get ripped limb from limb but you regenerate eventually and there are vending machines that just hand out PCP. I think the biggest step towards improvement would just be laying down the law on the biggest assholes. Lucifer has essentially holed himself up and decided they can just go nuts out there because gently caress it. When people like Valentino are out there running the show yeah it's gonna be a pretty bad time.
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Jan 29, 2024 05:53
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Funky Valentine posted:I mean Hell doesn't seem all the bad tbh, yeah you can get ripped limb from limb but you regenerate eventually and there are vending machines that just hand out PCP. hell seems to be going for a "smoke the whole pack of cigarettes" approach to punishment where it just lets sinners indulge in their vices as much as they want until all the joy goes out of them. this also inevitably leaves the place controlled by psychopaths who don't get sick of it
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Jan 29, 2024 06:02
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To be specific: Hell sucks because it's Earth with mostly only the lovely people, who don't have to pretend not to be lovely anymore, and the people who made big mistakes in life and aren't lovely enough to get any real power. You get stronger by being awful and if you're not awful you get trampled over. And even if you just keep your head down and live your life, you're living in a world built and run by the absolute worst people completely unchecked by anyone but the other absolute worst people.
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Jan 29, 2024 06:12
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Flopsy posted:I think the biggest step towards improvement would just be laying down the law on the biggest assholes. Lucifer has essentially holed himself up and decided they can just go nuts out there because gently caress it. When people like Valentino are out there running the show yeah it's gonna be a pretty bad time. Says something that while Lucifer is respected and admired by some, Alastor isn't one of them, and I get the impression Charlie isn't respected much by Overlords not just because she's an absurd pushover princess but because they see her as the faildaughter of an absentee landlord who hasn't paid attention to much in years besides his ducks. Of course, Hell tends to be enough of a mix of feudal oligarchy and social Darwinism that even being a Sin just makes you a juicier target for whoever manages to get a binding contract on you. Oxxidation posted:hell seems to be going for a "smoke the whole pack of cigarettes" approach to punishment where it just lets sinners indulge in their vices as much as they want until all the joy goes out of them. this also inevitably leaves the place controlled by psychopaths who don't get sick of it Yep, and a mix between that and the people who manage to thrive in that environment by having the slightest amount of common sense, and/or using the skills they already had while living. Either way, it means the people who should deserve the most elaborate punishment instead are effectively living in paradise, while everyone else is just trying to get through another day in a society that gives them zero incentive to care about anyone else or even themselves. And I think it says a lot it's implied that not a lot of Overlords even die in the Exterminations, given the almost full table at the meeting literally the day after one, it sounds like Alastor's killed more than E-days ever did. Of course, thing is, people are clearly often trying to make the best of it. In raunchy sex clubs, fights in the middle of the street, drug dens and trashy entertainment, true, but you clearly see demons trying to get along and having a good time. (and even the violence seems more like a game given as said, Sinners can't really kill each other easily, they can go full Mortal Kombat on each other and then catch up for drinks the next day) Heaven is implied to be not so different, with free love, relaxation and people just hanging out, it's just better organised.
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Jan 29, 2024 06:17
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I would not be at all surprised if some Overlords will eventually get a rude awakening to what kind of stuff the higher ups in hell's hierarchy could do to enforce their will if they cared enough/get pissed enough. I would presume it will eventually come from Lilith when she shows up, just because Lucifer doesn't care enough and Charlie doesn't want to abuse her status and power. I would also not be very surprised if Alastor is the one that gets to learn a harsh lesson. He seems very much like a big fish in a little pond, but I'm not sure he fully realizes that. There's been a couple of "blink and you'll miss it"-moments where he seems to have been a bit nervous (When he meets with Zestiel on the streets and the older demon talks about Alastor's absence, and just before Lucifer starts to sing for the first time), so I guess alternatively he could have already realized that. The Vs also seem like pretty good candidates for learning about where Overlords actually stand in hell's hierarchy. edit: and if its one of the Vs that gets to learn that lesson, it will 100% be Valentino. he's gotten the most screentime so far and has been presented as a really loathsome bastard, and one that doesn't quite get it might be a bad idea to sexually harass the princess of hell like he did SpiritOfLenin fucked around with this message at 08:44 on Jan 29, 2024 |
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Jan 29, 2024 08:41
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SpiritOfLenin posted:I would not be at all surprised if some Overlords will eventually get a rude awakening to what kind of stuff the higher ups in hell's hierarchy could do to enforce their will if they cared enough/get pissed enough. I would presume it will eventually come from Lilith when she shows up, just because Lucifer doesn't care enough and Charlie doesn't want to abuse her status and power. I can guarantee you the only reason Valentino hasn't caught a truly horrific rear end beating is because the other Vees cover for him. I think it's also given him the delusion he's untouchable when the truth of matter is he just hasn't really pissed off the right people yet. I'm not banking on this but if him and Asmodeus ever interacted in any capacity he would be annihilated just by the sheer contempt that Sin would have for him.
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Jan 29, 2024 08:53
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