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Anders posted:
By face factor do you mean Face, in this sort of sense? If so, I’ve heard from others that Sweden is susceptible to this as well, but more of a “I’d rather die than admit any fault” way. I’ve certainly noticed a tendency but I chalked it up to a bias. Anders posted:
THIS however, this I recognize quite well here, though mostly with older people. I don’t know if it’s naïveté or a fear of rocking the boat but let me put it this way: If Lyle Lanley showed up in riksdagen, we’re gonna see singing and dancing about a monorail real quick.
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Jan 30, 2024 14:13
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https://twitter.com/frederikdahler/status/1752070807407173779
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Jan 30, 2024 14:27
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Rust Martialis posted:The Houthi are at this point just attacking random ships with no evident ties to Israel. While I understand this is claimed to be an attempt to shut down Red Sea traffic to pressure third countries to press Israel to stop committing genocide in Gaza, it's also a clear breach of international law so other countries are also absolutely within their rights to try to stop them. Oh no, not a breach of international law! That subject is very important to me.  *defunds the main employer in Gaza, a humanitarian organization distributing aid to victims of an ongoing genocide, in direct response to the unenforceable milquetoast ruling from the International Court of Justice, the highest authority on the subject* Learn what a flag of convenience is and then look at the shipping rates. They are absolutely targetting the perpetrators of the genocide and their enablers, and we're sending a frigate to try to stop it. It's also obvious Ansarallah have taken into account the inevitable military response. You might even say it's the point.
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Jan 30, 2024 15:05
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Megamissen posted:they are not firing at random ships, they started out going after ships heading to or owned by israel, then expanded that to british and american owned ships after the bombings started So I Googled and the US started bombing on 9 January. Prior to that: 3 Dec - Number 9 (Panama/UK) 3 Dec - Sophie II (Panama/Japan) 11 Dec - Strinda (Norway) 13 Dec - Ardmore Encounter (Marshall Islands/Bermuda) 14 Dec - Maersk Gibraltar (Hong Kong) 15 Dec - Al Jasrah (Liberia/Germany) 15 Dec - MSC Palatium III (Liberia/Switzerland) 18 Dec - Swan Atlantic (Cayman Islands/Norway) 18 Dec - MSC Clara (Panama/Switzerland) 23 Dec - Blaamanen (Norway) 30 Dec - Maersk Hangzhou (Singapore) I skipped any ship where I saw an Israeli owner or managing company listed. Is there some evidence the above ships were Israeli-owned or operated, or headed to Israeli ports? One (Strinda) was tentatively headed to Ashdod in January but was headed to Italy when hit on 11 Dec. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_Red_Sea_crisis Sources in linked article. I look forward to all of the above being explained as "ships heading to or owned by Israel". Rust Martialis fucked around with this message at 15:13 on Jan 30, 2024 |
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Jan 30, 2024 15:10
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teen witch posted:By face factor do you mean Face, in this sort of sense? I mean "trynefaktor", i.e. if someone likes you, you get treated better Chinese "face" are more about saving the face of others if I understand correctly. Like when the lab in Wuhan denied the virus could possibly escaped from there - because that would cause the director of the lab to lose face - and if he lost face, the health department would lose face, and if the health department lost face, Winnie the Pooh would lose face SplitSoul posted:Oh no, not a breach of international law! That subject is very important to me. I get that your reply is kinda a defense of me, but don't put words in Rust Martialis mouth - I agree with him that killing sailors are justified, most of these are South East Asians that spend 16 months on boat and 3 months home, making a third of what we do. But I do think their reaction is understandable considering the other side is so incredibly cruel. There isn't any good guys in war, just different shades of bad. The obvious solution to prevent attacks in the red sea is to stop being allied to Israel when they commit genocide, not attack them back and cause more civilian deaths
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Jan 30, 2024 15:17
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Anders posted:I get that your reply is kinda a defense of me, but don't put words in Rust Martialis mouth - I agree with him that killing sailors are justified,  I didn't see the op due to ignore. You can't have a rational discussion with someone who isn't interested in being rational. https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3839774&pagenumber=626&perpage=40&userid=0#post537496597
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Jan 30, 2024 15:26
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Anders posted:I mean "trynefaktor", i.e. if someone likes you, you get treated better Interesting! From what I can tell, it’s similar to a first impression but kind of like the term “pretty privilege”? Nonetheless, I can imagine that going sideways fairly often.
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Jan 30, 2024 15:26
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Rust Martialis posted:
Oops, typo - I assume everyone understood I didn't mean it like that
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Jan 30, 2024 15:27
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teen witch posted:Interesting! From what I can tell, it’s similar to a first impression but kind of like the term “pretty privilege”? Nonetheless, I can imagine that going sideways fairly often. it gets translated to "lookism". but yeah, its based on how much you like or respect someone, and attractiveness plays a part in that.
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Jan 30, 2024 15:35
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*mod hat on* Please keep discussion of the Houthis and Operation Prosperity Guardian (lol) restricted to things that are directly relevant to Scandinavia.
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Jan 30, 2024 15:36
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Anders posted:I get that your reply is kinda a defense of me, but don't put words in Rust Martialis mouth - I agree with him that killing sailors are justified, most of these are South East Asians that spend 16 months on boat and 3 months home, making a third of what we do. But I do think their reaction is understandable considering the other side is so incredibly cruel. There isn't any good guys in war, just different shades of bad. The obvious solution to prevent attacks in the red sea is to stop being allied to Israel when they commit genocide, not attack them back and cause more civilian deaths Oh, don't worry, I wasn't trying to defend you nor were I putting words in anybody's mouth. I was trying to illustrate how little that concept means at this point. How many civilian sailors have they killed, incidentally? Inferior Third Season posted:*mod hat on* The discussion started with the mention of Denmark sending a frigate to the Red Sea, i.e. Danish foreign policy.
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Jan 30, 2024 16:19
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SplitSoul posted:The discussion started with the mention of Denmark sending a frigate to the Red Sea, i.e. Danish foreign policy.
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Jan 30, 2024 16:27
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Inferior Third Season posted:I know. Then it quickly became about the Houthis and the attacks in the Red Sea on a general level. If you want to talk about the Danish ship, or reactions from Danish politicians about entering the fray, or things like that, then go hog wild. But this is the Scandinavia thread, not the Yemen thread. Alright. The Danish ship and its ship class is named after a dude whose ship blew up, killing him and almost his entire crew. There is some concern about its lack of long-range missiles.
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Jan 30, 2024 16:45
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SplitSoul posted:Alright.  Grimson posted:scandinavia: i know i poo poo on denmark a lot, but i think they deserve it
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Jan 30, 2024 17:02
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Sweden doesn't want to be left out of the genocidaire club and suspends funding for UNRWA. Watch us do the same soon.
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Jan 30, 2024 18:51
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https://www.dr.dk/nyheder/politik/skoleledere-kalder-flyer-skammelig-og-forkert-ungdomsparti-uddeler-envejsbillet-til quote:Men der er intet racistisk i flyerne, og de er helt indenfor skiven, lyder det fra landsformand i Dansk Folkepartis Ungdom, Joachim Mortensen. 
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Jan 30, 2024 19:06
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Inferior Third Season posted:I know. Then it quickly became about the Houthis and the attacks in the Red Sea on a general level. If you want to talk about the Danish ship, or reactions from Danish politicians about entering the fray, or things like that, then go hog wild. But this is the Scandinavia thread, not the Yemen thread.
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Jan 30, 2024 19:11
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Jon Pod Van Damm posted:Don't take this the wrong way but do you happen to be American?
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Jan 30, 2024 20:04
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prove it, what does kamelåså mean
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Jan 30, 2024 20:24
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while i get the impulse to try and steer the thread away from becoming thread number three on the red sea issue the scandinavian countries do exist in the world and have foreign policies which are involved in world events. splitsoul clearly thinks that it's bad that denmark participates in the military action against the houthis, whereas rust martialis seems to think that it's good because the houthis are breaking international law and firing at random ships. hashing this stuff out seems pertinent for evaluating a pretty major investment of danish military force - if they are not firing at random ships it seems to defeat rust martialis' apparent position and so if one accepts rust martialis' premises it's pertinent to the deployment of danish military assets in the theater.
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Jan 30, 2024 20:39
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Counterpoint: this thread is pretty slow, so if we have a few pages worth of digressions that's not really an issue. We're mostly just Scandinavians talking about geo politics from a Scandinavian perspective Edit: 
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Jan 30, 2024 20:58
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Fine. The mob has spoken. I rescind my previous post. I have other things I need to do, anyway. 1000 liters of milk just got delivered that I don't remember ordering.
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Jan 30, 2024 21:06
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V. Illych L. posted:whereas rust martialis seems to think that it's good Kindly forbear from ascribing to me positions I do not hold and have not advocated. The Houthi seem, on the evidence I have seen at hand, been committing acts that are breaches of international law, if not acts of war. My primary objection is that they have targeted ships flagged and owned by countries other than Israel that were not even headed there. The often repeated claim they only attacked ships owned, operated or headed to Israel seems to be quite obviously false. In that context, Denmark sending a ship when at least *two* Maersk ships have already been attacked is about as *surprising* as a grey day in Copenhagen in January.
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Jan 30, 2024 21:08
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every scandithread has been able to self-police themselves easily without trouble. there's zero chance of the thread spiralling into another IvP shitshow
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Jan 30, 2024 21:08
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Inferior Third Season posted:Fine. The mob has spoken. I rescind my previous post. I have other things I need to do, anyway. 1000 liters of milk just got delivered that I don't remember ordering. Yeah we host Arla computers so I had the SAP guys sign you up for Irma's cancelled allocation. I hope you like kaffefløde.
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Jan 30, 2024 21:11
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Inferior Third Season posted:1000 liters of milk just got delivered that I don't remember ordering. 
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Jan 30, 2024 21:11
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Inferior Third Season posted:Fine. The mob has spoken. I rescind my previous post. I have other things I need to do, anyway. 1000 liters of milk just got delivered that I don't remember ordering. 
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Jan 30, 2024 21:44
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Inferior Third Season posted:1000 liters of milk just got delivered that I don't remember ordering. It's all yogurt Rust Martialis posted:The Houthi seem, on the evidence I have seen at hand, been committing acts that are breaches of international law, if not acts of war. My primary objection is that they have targeted ships flagged and owned by countries other than Israel that were not even headed there. The often repeated claim they only attacked ships owned, operated or headed to Israel seems to be quite obviously false. In that context, Denmark sending a ship when at least *two* Maersk ships have already been attacked is about as *surprising* as a grey day in Copenhagen in January. Your earlier post complained about moralists and legalists not communicating properly, so I'll try to split this into two parts for your convenience: Legally, you're absolutely right that Ansar Allah are breaking international law, if you consider these attacks to be random piracy. However, the genocide convention requires all signatories to "prevent and to punish" genocide. Declaring war and enacting a trade blockade are both completely reasonable (and legal) tools to achieve that. Whether you believe AA are attacking randomly and using the genocide as a pretext, or are simply not equipped to always be accurate in target selection largely comes down to your personal bias. I'd point to AA's past behavior though: In 2019 they boarded South Korean ships, verified that the crews were South Korean (and not Saudi), and then let them go. That seems like a weird behavior for pirates. Morally, Denmark's stance on Israel is indefensible, and we are with the absolutely most generous interpretation allowing a genocide to happen. A less generous interpretation is that we're actively defending the perpetrators (and in the case of Sweden, directly harming the victims by defunding the UNRWA, based on "intelligence" the genocidal state has produced). The Houthi attacks on shipping have substantially reduced traffic into Eilat, putting economic pressure on Israel. Even if you believe AA are just pirates in it for themselves, it is immoral that our state is prioritizing stopping the crime of attacks on international shipping (and as a side effect relieving pressure on Israel), when the much greater crime of genocide is left unaddressed. Rust Martialis posted:You can't have a rational discussion with someone who isn't interested in being rational. This comes off as you not understanding that you have an ideological standpoint and biases, like everyone else, and that people who do not hold opinions similar to yours are not simply being irrational. I hope that is not what you mean.
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Jan 30, 2024 22:14
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Rust Martialis posted:Kindly forbear from ascribing to me positions I do not hold and have not advocated. i wrote "seems" because you hadn't explicitly advocated that position, but i didn't (and to be honest don't) understand where else you would be headed with this line of reasoning which is pertinent to the thread and was trying to give your post a charitable reading
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Jan 30, 2024 22:44
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Esran posted:Morally, Denmark's stance on Israel is indefensible, and we are with the absolutely most generous interpretation allowing a genocide to happen. A less generous interpretation is that we're actively defending the perpetrators (and in the case of Sweden, directly harming the victims by defunding the UNRWA, based on "intelligence" the genocidal state has produced). We're in fact actively exporting weapons systems to the genocide perpetrator. That's why those protesters keep blockading Terma. Oh, and buying ATMOS artillery systems from Elbit after we'd donated all of our CAESARs to Ukraine.
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Jan 30, 2024 22:46
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Esran posted:Whether you believe AA are attacking randomly and using the genocide as a pretext, or are simply not equipped to always be accurate in target selection largely comes down to your personal bias. Currently, I'm interested in the truth or falsity of the claim they only attacked Israeli ships. It seems to be established as false by the evidence in hand.
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Jan 30, 2024 22:51
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Rust Martialis posted:Currently, I'm interested in the truth or falsity of the claim they only attacked Israeli ships. It seems to be established as false by the evidence in hand. ok but, like, why though
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Jan 30, 2024 22:52
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This link might be helpful: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_convenience
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Jan 30, 2024 22:59
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V. Illych L. posted:ok but, like, why though Last page: Megamissen posted:they are not firing at random ships, they started out going after ships heading to or owned by israel, then expanded that to british and american owned ships after the bombings started I actually care about facts and evidence so I looked into it. I wanted to know if they really were only targeting Israeli ships, in which case I'm not sure I'd actually object. They're not. Seriously, if there's actual evidence I'm wrong, I'd really appreciate seeing it linked here.
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Jan 30, 2024 23:12
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two norwegian-owned vessels have been hit by the houthis which didn't have any obvious actual connection to israel, but both of those ships had registrations which made it possible to infer through certain methods that they did. clearly the houthis are not exclusively hitting israeli or israel-affiliated ships (and now US/UK-affiliated ships), but i don't think it's been demonstrated that they aren't trying to be discriminate in their attacks, i.e. that they have a more or less open political agenda which can be negotiated as i see it, there are three cases to be made for deploying warships to suppress, eliminate or contain the houthis rather than aqcuiescing to their stated (imo quite reasonable) demands of a stable ceasefire in and aid to palestine: 1) the houthis are attacking ships more or less at random without any real relation to the ongoing crisis in palestine, contrary to their public messaging on the matter and so the houthis are doing simple piracy - a sub-variant of this is the more general worry about legitimising naval blockades as a method of exerting political pressure, but we rarely see that in the wild and imo the houthis' official reasoning about the obligation to prevent genocide adequately addresses this concern 2) it is harmful to western prestige to be seen to be pressured by a bunch of, basically, reactionary warbands and should be suppressed irrespective of what's going on in palestine 3) one supports the israeli side in the present crisis the only obvious (to me, at least) reason to be arguing about houthi targetting patterns is that one is claiming 1) above. proposing 2) and 3) are not really comme il faut on SA these days as far as i can tell, so if one were predisposed towards 2) or 3) one might find 1) a more comfortable thing to argue, and so we generally find ourselves litigating 1). the most intuitive reason that one would be interested in attacking the (in my view) too broad claim that the houthis are "only" attacking israeli ships, outside of posting grudges or other such grubby motives, would be to build a case for scenario 1), but i don't think it's sufficient. it's good to know where people are going with their lines of argument and not have to infer it to said people's potential umbrage. splitsoul's goal is imo pretty clear - he both supports the palestinians and thinks that the houthis are doing what they claim to be doing, which is attempt to exert pressure on israel and friends to force a ceasefire on terms acceptable to the palestinians, having a not-totally-accurate stated position on houthi targetting procedures is not fatal to this. the substantive argument to be had here is whether we should be handling this situation by sending in warships, or if there's a better way. in my opinion, there is a better way
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Jan 30, 2024 23:21
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Rust Martialis posted:I actually care about facts and evidence so I looked into it. I wanted to know if they really were only targeting Israeli ships, in which case I'm not sure I'd actually object. They're not. but that is not the precise claim being made in that post. the precise claim being made in that post is that the houthis started out "going after ships headed to or owned by israel(...)", and should charitably allow for some inaccuracies in their targetting procedures - collateral damage, if you will. also you're discussing this in the context of a major military deployment by a scandinavian country in the thread about scandinavian politics, so it cannot be a surprise to you that it's read as an entry into the debate about that deployment.
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Jan 30, 2024 23:24
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Rust Martialis posted:So I Googled and the US started bombing on 9 January. the targets include ships with links to the three countries, i should have included that and it is a broader category for example maersk does logistics work for the us military https://delivers.maersk.com/industries/government/ with one of the ships (ardmore encounter) i could find a detailed account of events quote:"The small boat approached a merchant vessel to within 0.5 nm. The embarked armed security team fired warning shots, there was an exchange of small arms fire and the small boat departed the area. The reporting vessel was then hailed by an entity declaring itself as the Yemeni authorities, directing the vessel to alter course to Yemen. The reporting vessel then sighted an explosion 200 m astern," the UKMTO report said. its possible that the warning shots caused the attack but more to the general point, insurance companies would not seek to exclude ships with "US, UK or Israeli involvement" if the targeting was random https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2024-01-16/insurers-seek-to-exclude-us-uk-ships-from-red-sea-cover https://archive.is/j9tJo#selection-4879.0-4879.195
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Jan 31, 2024 00:20
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Megamissen posted:for example maersk does logistics work for the us military They shipped U.S. materiel to the Gulf War free of charge, incidentally, so it's not like loving around in the Middle East is new to them.
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Jan 31, 2024 01:49
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Malmö, the host of Eurovision later this year, is usually paired as the capital of anti-semitism in Swedish media. I wonder if they are going to restart that before or after the competition. If Israel ends up competing I predict we will either have a shitshow where it risks being shutdown due to protests against the ongoing genocide or they ship in every cop in Sweden (and maybe Denmark?) and we get a little facism party.
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Jan 31, 2024 07:39
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I hope there will be mass boycotts if Israel are allowed to compete
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Jan 31, 2024 10:01
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