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Shame Boy posted:i'm the million tons of bacon that europe was apparently using to run power plants in 2006 for some loving reason europe has a lot of very large scale district heating systems, like for example the public heating utility in stockholm has over 3000 km of pipes and serves 800k people. heat input to these systems typically come mainly from cogeneration plants that burn things like household waste (landfills aren't really a thing here), byproducts from the forestry industry, byproducts from the olive oil industry (crushed olive pits), and yes, sometimes other types of biowaste as well. electricity is kind of a byproduct in these plants, they're don't get used if there's no heating demand. also, unlike in many places in the US where power usage is correlated with sunlight because of air conditioning, at least in scandinavia there's an inverse correlation where power demand increases in winter and with sinking temperature because our heat pumps mostly go the other way; air conditioning for cooling is rare. speaking of heat pumps, a second important source of heat in district heating systems is gigantic heat pumps that extract waste heat from wherever it might be found, for example there's a plant here in stockholm that has the capacity to extract 225 MW of heat energy from treated sewage wastewater (the cold side of these heatpumps is also used for district cooling, and afterwards the treated water is released into a lake via a turbine, so there's a small amount of electricity generation as well). solar panels are actually becoming a bit too cheap, there's too many of them, the power grid needs rotating mass to keep the frequency stable TheFluff fucked around with this message at 17:07 on Feb 2, 2024 |
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Feb 2, 2024 16:55
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i've wanted to do an effort post about district heating for a long time, it's really cool and good, but i don't think anyone cares
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Feb 2, 2024 16:57
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a family member runs a company that does flywheel power storage (I think), it's a super cool idea, just don't think too hard about the implications of all that kinetic energy being in one place
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Feb 2, 2024 16:59
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here's a decent introduction youtube if y'like https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a8Khzns0KIk
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Feb 2, 2024 16:59
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for scandinavia at least hydro is such a blessing for peak management. some renovations needed to make it a bit more resilient to the spotty usage, but the capacity is there and the investments needed are real easy to make with the way peaks pay. and with market forces really heavily behind renewables now there's at least some momentum for good things.
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Feb 2, 2024 17:02
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TheFluff posted:europe has a lot of very large scale district heating systems, like for example the public heating utility in stockholm has over 3000 km of pipes and serves 800k people. heat input to these systems typically come mainly from cogeneration plants that burn things like household waste (landfills aren't really a thing here), byproducts from the forestry industry, byproducts from the olive oil industry (crushed olive pits), and yes, sometimes other types of biowaste as well. a second important source of heat is gigantic heat pumps that extract waste heat from wherever it might be found, for example there's a plant here in stockholm that has the capacity to extract 225 MW of heat energy from treated sewage wastewater (the cold side of these heatpumps is also used for district cooling, and afterwards the treated water is released into a lake via a turbine, so there's a small amount of electricity generation as well). i'm plenty aware of europe's district heating systems and how they tend to burn whatever's cheap and lying around, it still seems hella weird to me that that was apparently "1 megaton of animal fat" in 2006. i mean we've spent literally all of human history finding new ways to use every single last bit of animal products so it really feels like "idk just light them on fire" would be absolute last on the list when you've exhausted every other even slightly more useful option though idk maybe there was a big disease scare that year and they had to destroy a bunch of animals with swine flu or something and I'm guessing that'd automatically eliminate most of the things you can do with it besides light it on fire 
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Feb 2, 2024 17:04
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yeah, real valid question how that came to be, but *certainly* it will have been in one way or another judged unsuitable for food/whatever.
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Feb 2, 2024 17:06
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it would be nice if we had some more nuclear power stations for base load generation still shaking my head at how germany completely killed all of its nuclear power generation practically overnight after fukushima happened and then replaced it with the shittiest coal generation imaginable.
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Feb 2, 2024 17:08
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Cybernetic Vermin posted:yeah, real valid question how that came to be, but *certainly* it will have been in one way or another judged unsuitable for food/whatever. the other possibility i guess is they could just be lumping all the stuff that gets sucked out of restaurant grease traps into that category, which would make a lot more sense cuz yeah that's pretty much all you can do with that
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Feb 2, 2024 17:09
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TheFluff posted:i've wanted to do an effort post about district heating for a long time, it's really cool and good, but i don't think anyone cares lots of folks in here are interested in a wide variety of things, you never know
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Feb 2, 2024 17:09
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yeah i legitimately loved reading that series of effortposts (in the middle of a pics thread of all places) from some person who worked at a sewage treatment plant
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Feb 2, 2024 17:10
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I mean, what else are you gonna do with 1 million tons of animal fat
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Feb 2, 2024 17:11
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Shame Boy posted:i'm plenty aware of europe's district heating systems and how they tend to burn whatever's cheap and lying around, it still seems hella weird to me that that was apparently "1 megaton of animal fat" in 2006. i mean we've spent literally all of human history finding new ways to use every single last bit of animal products so it really feels like "idk just light them on fire" would be absolute last on the list when you've exhausted every other even slightly more useful option sorry, didn't mean to overexplain at ya, i'm just enthusiastic about district heating i think the disease explanation seems plausible but idk what it would've been, i think the sars scare was earlier than 2006 and swine flu was later, but idk
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Feb 2, 2024 17:11
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that poo poo rules. denver downtown has the oldest continuously operating steam system in the US! they added chilled water service to attract tech stuff several years ago, too. so 3 pipes: steam, 1c water, and lukewarm return for both
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Feb 2, 2024 17:13
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that's the neatest part about district heating/cooling, there are a lot of opportunities for just moving heat around from places that don't want it to places that do, and with heat pumps you can use even low grade heat quite efficiently
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Feb 2, 2024 17:16
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also yes i would absolutely read a thread full of effortposting about district heating i mean i'm sure at least half of yospos watches practical engineering so like, go for it
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Feb 2, 2024 17:18
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the town I grew up in had a a power plant across the river and they ran pipes to do steam heat for the downtown area, I always thought it was cool and was disappointed it never got significant expansion
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Feb 2, 2024 17:20
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new york also has a steam distribution system, when it springs a leak you get one of those iconic orange and white exhaust pipes in the middle of the street blocking traffic
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Feb 2, 2024 17:25
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TheFluff posted:i've wanted to do an effort post about district heating for a long time, it's really cool and good, but i don't think anyone cares i think it’s pretty neat. that’s a big rear end district heating system. in austin i’m on district cooling and i love it. our AC uses chilled water that is cooled overnight in cooling towers around town. they built this one next to my building a couple years ago. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=249xO8fDrI8 it can be 110°F outside and my AC vent temperatures are still a breezy 55°F
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Feb 2, 2024 17:25
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Powerful Two-Hander posted:a family member runs a company that does flywheel power storage (I think), it's a super cool idea, just don't think too hard about the implications of all that kinetic energy being in one place i've seen some designs for flywheel power storage that sink the flywheel below ground level and encase it in a big drum of concrete, which seems like a good start
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Feb 2, 2024 17:26
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the state power investment corporation in china has built a nuclear powered district heating system which will eventually cover multiple cities https://www.world-nuclear-news.org/Articles/Chinese-long-distance-nuclear-heating-project-begi quote:The project is the third phase of a commercial heating project called Warm Nuclear No 1 operated by the State Power Investment Corporation (SPIC). After trials the previous winter to provide heat to the plant's dormitory and some local residents, the Haiyang plant officially started providing district heat to the surrounding area in November 2020, and then to the whole Haiyang city.
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Feb 2, 2024 17:34
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they should run like a giant geothermal heat pump with district heating.
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Feb 2, 2024 17:40
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Trabisnikof posted:the state power investment corporation in china has built a nuclear powered district heating system which will eventually cover multiple cities that owns the first commercial nuclear reactor in sweden was also primarily used for district heating. they just built it inside of a mountain a few kilometers from a newly constructed stockholm suburb. it was only in operation for about 10 years, 1964-1974. i got to visit it about ten years ago, before they finally started dismantling it. it was almost entirely intact still, at that time. here's an old imgur album from that visit
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Feb 2, 2024 17:41
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not district heating, but there is a hot spring resort in Alaska that also runs the lowest temperature commercial geothermal plant in the world
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Feb 2, 2024 17:49
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Eeyo posted:they should run like a giant geothermal heat pump with district heating. pretty sure this is quite prevalent in iceland, though it's the "lets get heat from volcanic activity" type of geothermal, not "use the earth as a big heat exchanger by getting below the frost line" geothermal
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Feb 2, 2024 17:51
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_MAXlkWLpfM
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Feb 2, 2024 18:02
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haveblue posted:new york also has a steam distribution system, when it springs a leak you get one of those iconic orange and white exhaust pipes in the middle of the street blocking traffic detroit has this too! it's been going away slowly over the last couple decades but downtown still gets the iconic steam plumes too
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Feb 2, 2024 18:11
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haveblue posted:new york also has a steam distribution system, when it springs a leak you get one of those iconic orange and white exhaust pipes in the middle of the street blocking traffic those mean the rats elected a new pope
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Feb 2, 2024 18:24
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raminasi posted:those mean the rats elected a new pope i knew rats had a monarchy, but i had no idea they were catholic
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Feb 2, 2024 18:53
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haveblue posted:I mean, what else are you gonna do with 1 million tons of animal fat spend more on candles
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Feb 2, 2024 19:03
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TheFluff posted:i've wanted to do an effort post about district heating for a long time, it's really cool and good, but i don't think anyone cares do you post in the energy megathread in the grey forums? they'd sure as poo poo love the post there lol Shame Boy posted:i'm plenty aware of europe's district heating systems and how they tend to burn whatever's cheap and lying around, it still seems hella weird to me that that was apparently "1 megaton of animal fat" in 2006. i mean we've spent literally all of human history finding new ways to use every single last bit of animal products so it really feels like "idk just light them on fire" would be absolute last on the list when you've exhausted every other even slightly more useful option quote:Use of animal fat biodiesel has doubled in the past decade and is 40 times higher than it was in 2006. Demand for animal fats in biofuels is also projected to triple by 2030 compared to 2021 according to data collected by T&E from Stratas Advisors.
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Feb 2, 2024 20:04
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tech bubble v5.23: Paris to New York needs 8,800 dead pigs
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Feb 2, 2024 20:06
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rip vegan travelers
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Feb 2, 2024 20:15
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oh yeah, i forgot about that, but there's a real perverse incentive thing going on in biofuels in a lot of eu countries. done with the best of intentions, but it is very clear by now that the biofuel-based climate goal plans are entirely nonsense, the fuels are getting expensive enough that there's huge economic forces creating environmental issues just outside the boundaries the regulation judges these things by. just have to stop burning things. which might yet be doable the way things are developing.
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Feb 2, 2024 20:18
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BMan posted:rip vegan travelers assuming you're on a large passenger aircraft with about 500 passengers that's a mere 17.6 hogs per seat; practically a rounding error
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Feb 2, 2024 20:21
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Internet Janitor posted:assuming you're on a large passenger aircraft with about 500 passengers that's a mere 17.6 hogs per seat; practically a rounding error 18 hogs per hog
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Feb 2, 2024 20:22
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mediaphage posted:18 hogs per hog (im calling all of us just hogs for the grist mill)
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Feb 2, 2024 20:22
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what's the problem, we've got more than enough hogs
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Feb 2, 2024 20:29
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Cybernetic Vermin posted:oh yeah, i forgot about that, but there's a real perverse incentive thing going on in biofuels in a lot of eu countries. not saying this is definitely impossible for all time, but the physics of flying is heavily against this
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Feb 2, 2024 20:55
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BMan posted:not saying this is definitely impossible for all time, but the physics of flying is heavily against this theres an easy solution and we all know what it is but everyone is too afraid to say it, so I will: AIRSHIPS
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Feb 2, 2024 20:57
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