|
Completely insane
|
#
?
Feb 7, 2024 14:10
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 6, 2024 17:12 |
|
|
I just think Serie is neat!
|
|
#
?
Feb 7, 2024 14:24
|
|
|
I also think serie is neat! She's a cool character and whether or not she's responsible for the comparative lack of mages (idk) i think her and frieren's difference of opinion re: what the 'point' of magic is, and more generally what the most important things in life are, is very important to the story frieren isn't specifically trying to be serie's philosophical rival (frieren doesn't really give a poo poo) but as a result of accomplishing things serie couldn't in ways serie wouldn't like or wouldn't even consider, she is anyway
|
|
#
?
Feb 7, 2024 16:02
|
|
|
I think I would probably say that Serie is passively stalling human progress because she's directing the organization to select for murderous assholes at the top in a way and allows the promise of her privilege to distract people from figuring out their own new spells. It's hard to say whether she's doing it on purpose, because Serie is dumb.
|
|
#
?
Feb 7, 2024 18:34
|
|
|
Serie's exams aren't preventing people from becoming mages though, regarding that point at least. She appears to gatekeep becoming a First Class mage, but I don't think she has done anything at all to keep anyone from learning magic, she just wants the highest obtainable title to remain elusive to anyone who doesn't meet her standards. edit: I could agree with her being a passive obstacle to humanity's progress or at least representing a stagnant ideology. I feel like that's a big angle with the elves in Frieren in general as part of their contrast with the more ephemeral species: their longevity also makes it hard for them to move on to new ideas, similarly to how Frieren mentioned that elves are slower to adapt to innovations in magic because they experience a greater inertia to overcome their ingrained reflexes as a consequence of their long lives. Tosk fucked around with this message at 18:41 on Feb 7, 2024 |
|
#
?
Feb 7, 2024 18:38
|
|
|
She's the Military Industrialization Complex Elf. She redirects resources from social services ( catching birds, making laundry smell nice ) to war.
|
|
#
?
Feb 7, 2024 18:39
|
|
|
Tosk posted:Serie's exams aren't preventing people from becoming mages though, regarding that point at least. She appears to gatekeep becoming a First Class mage, but I don't think she has done anything at all to keep anyone from learning magic, she just wants the highest obtainable title to remain elusive to anyone who doesn't meet her standards. Serie did implement some extremely rigid class based hierarchy onto human mage society. Its not just first class mages, Fern only took the 3rd class exam because it was actually being given that year they were in the capital. Whether you think that stops hedge wizards or whatever to actually prevent human progress in magic is another thing though. Edit: Like if you think about it for a sec, humans are short lived and Serie implemented a series of exams and certifications needed to do mage stuff within her domain that are run on different cadences all with multi-year gaps. If you ever wanted to stymie a race of short lived people you'd probably do something like that. We dont have too much info on what REQUIRES certification, but at the very least travel is restricted. It makes sense from a danger prevention angle, but also stops people from snooping around an area probably rife with magical knowledge. Jerkface fucked around with this message at 19:01 on Feb 7, 2024 |
|
#
?
Feb 7, 2024 18:47
|
|
|
Isn't part of being a first class mage having to respond to requests to kill rampaging demons? That's probably something that should be gatekept.
|
|
#
?
Feb 7, 2024 18:54
|
|
|
"First class mage" is about dealing with people trying to kill you. Lotta spell slingers otherwise
|
|
#
?
Feb 7, 2024 19:00
|
|
|
Tosk posted:Serie's exams aren't preventing people from becoming mages though, regarding that point at least. She appears to gatekeep becoming a First Class mage, but I don't think she has done anything at all to keep anyone from learning magic, she just wants the highest obtainable title to remain elusive to anyone who doesn't meet her standards. yeah there's a difference between actively promoting magic to everyone as much as possible, the current bureaucratization and maybe mild stagnation/limiting/passification of the present, and some sort of grand active plan to be as restrictive as possible to make mages a forever elite class
|
|
#
?
Feb 7, 2024 19:06
|
|
|
LostRook posted:Which goes back to Serie, the one responsible for the exams and their methodology, actively suppressing magic. The war with the demons lasted over 1000 years. The biggest change for mages in the last 50 years is the appearance of Serie. There is no reason that mages have to be warlike, excepting that the organization overseeing magic demands that they are, and holds the privilege up as a lure. Serie's test wasn't stopping people from being mages. It was stopping people from being specifically first-class mages: a special designation of excellent mages who can handle serious danger. The entire reason Freiren and Fern went to take the first-class test was that random unaffiliated travelers weren't allowed into the highly-dangerous, demon-infested northern areas without being escorted by a first-class mage. First-class mages do have to be warlike, because being first-class is itself an indication that you're able to handle that kind of bad poo poo all by yourself. And let's not forget that Frieren herself gatekept magic. When Heiter first asked Freiren to take Fern as an apprentice, her first response wasn't "yeah, sure, I love to spread magic knowledge", it was "you know the death rate of mage apprentices". That's why Heiter schemed to keep her there until Fern had learned and practiced enough that she'd be able to defend herself.
|
|
#
?
Feb 7, 2024 20:11
|
|
|
Hypocrisy posted:Isn't part of being a first class mage having to respond to requests to kill rampaging demons? That's probably something that should be gatekept. from what we've seen, military ends seem to be the main use for mages. new first classes are strongly encouraged to join serie's special demon elimination squad. at least from wirbel's example we know that lower levels are involved with the same, though admittedly iirc we don't know what most of the others actually do--even though know denkem's job is head gov mage, most of what we see of his responsibilities is political maneuvering to secure that permission. maintaining barriers, i guess? the exam suggests a lot of the development of magic has been figuring out how to use non-zoltraak things for combat purposes, and i don't really recall encountering any village mages or whatever who just chill and help with the harvest. frieren's focus on utility spells outside the basics very feels like the odd one out no idea wtf up's with Sense's pacifism in that framework, but whatever
|
|
#
?
Feb 7, 2024 20:37
|
|
|
Morally speaking, the issue with the first-class exam isn't really that it's incredibly dangerous; it's that it's way, way more dangerous than the second- or third-class exams and that the organization is blatantly uninterested in reducing the lethality by doing obvious things like "making sure people like Kanne and Lawine, who frankly have no business being there, aren't allowed to sign up." It's tremendously wasteful of mages who could have been productive elsewhere.
|
|
#
?
Feb 7, 2024 20:47
|
|
|
It is weird that both 3rd-class and 2nd-class mages can try the 1st-class exam and it's not like, sequential or whatever.
|
|
#
?
Feb 7, 2024 20:53
|
|
|
RuBisCO posted:It is weird that both 3rd-class and 2nd-class mages can try the 1st-class exam and it's not like, sequential or whatever. They do this for (some) foreign language tests. You don't need the second highest rank to take the highest level, but you need to qualify before they let you take the test.
|
|
#
?
Feb 7, 2024 21:19
|
|
|
Qtotonibudinibudet posted:from what we've seen, military ends seem to be the main use for mages. new first classes are strongly encouraged to join serie's special demon elimination squad. at least from wirbel's example we know that lower levels are involved with the same, though admittedly iirc we don't know what most of the others actually do--even though know denkem's job is head gov mage, most of what we see of his responsibilities is political maneuvering to secure that permission. maintaining barriers, i guess? Honestly, I don't think I remember if we have ever seen a mage who didn't use magic for combat, to the point where I think that in Frieren's world a "mage" is specifically a title for someone who fights using magic. If that's the case, then someone developing and using magic exclusively for non-combat purposes wouldn't be even called a mage, but like...a scholar, or a sage, or a herbalist or something like that. Or heck, maybe things have gone so far that someone who develops magic to help with farming and not to fight demons is not even considered worthy of special mention or title and is just a "farmer".
|
|
#
?
Feb 7, 2024 21:44
|
|
|
Vizuyos posted:Serie's test wasn't stopping people from being mages. It was stopping people from being specifically first-class mages: a special designation of excellent mages who can handle serious danger. The entire reason everyone except Frieren, Fern and Denken, 54 out of 57 people, were taking the test was due to the privilege. Serie isn't gatekeeping magic, she's luring people into a thresher. And Serie herself says that were she not to have intervened pretty much everyone would have died in the typical 3rd exam. She's probably correct, and the only reason it didn't happen was so she could keep Frieren out of her club. Lt. Lizard posted:Honestly, I don't think I remember if we have ever seen a mage who didn't use magic for combat, to the point where I think that in Frieren's world a "mage" is specifically a title for someone who fights using magic. If that's the case, then someone developing and using magic exclusively for non-combat purposes wouldn't be even called a mage, but like...a scholar, or a sage, or a herbalist or something like that. Or heck, maybe things have gone so far that someone who develops magic to help with farming and not to fight demons is not even considered worthy of special mention or title and is just a "farmer". That's what Flamme wanted but we've never seen a farmer use magic.
|
|
#
?
Feb 7, 2024 21:44
|
|
|
LostRook posted:That's what Flamme wanted but we've never seen a farmer use magic. Yes, except almost every village seem to have a few grimoires with practical spells lying around, so someone is developing them and using them.
|
|
#
?
Feb 7, 2024 21:54
|
|
|
We've never seen anyone actually cast any of that stuff though, which seems to indicate that it takes training to do something as simple as learn to turn red apples green. Humanity has been developing magic for the last 1080 years, obviously there's going to be stuff like that spread all over the place. Serie is throttling magic and mages; she's not erasing them. It's a problem that will get worse with time.
|
|
#
?
Feb 7, 2024 22:08
|
|
|
RuBisCO posted:It is weird that both 3rd-class and 2nd-class mages can try the 1st-class exam and it's not like, sequential or whatever. Oh, it's worse than that. Fern got a 3rd class qualification because that exam was faster, but she mentioned that the 1st class exam is open to any certified mage of 5th-class. Lawine and Kanne are still 3rd class mages, but apparently Serie lets mages that are two levels weaker than them take the exam.
|
|
#
?
Feb 8, 2024 01:52
|
|
|
golden bubble posted:Oh, it's worse than that. Fern got a 3rd class qualification because that exam was faster, but she mentioned that the 1st class exam is open to any certified mage of 5th-class. Lawine and Kanne are still 3rd class mages, but apparently Serie lets mages that are two levels weaker than them take the exam. I don't even know if it's a question of weaker; Lawine was pretty loving strong when she got to bring her specialty into play. The issue is that Kanne and Lawine thought that being really good at the stuff they teach in mage schools meant they were qualified to take the first-class exam. This turned out to be incorrect. A good question is "why did they think they could pass?" Is it not common knowledge that people die fairly often? Does the organization purposely encourage people who can't possibly pass to come and die there? Are they too stupid to live? Is Serie just not very good at writing invitations?
|
|
#
?
Feb 8, 2024 02:01
|
|
|
While there's certainly an element of gatekeeping to the way Serie runs things, it's also worth noting that she ended up passing 6 out of the 12 applicants she interviewed, which she admits to Sense was more than she had expected. So it's clear she does have some genuine standards for what she considers a first-class mage. (Except in the case of Frieren, who she fails because gently caress you, that's why.)
|
|
#
?
Feb 8, 2024 02:08
|
|
|
Serie has a nastier personality than Ubel, but she is still cute.
|
|
#
?
Feb 8, 2024 02:18
|
|
|
Also the lethality of the tests seems up to whichever proctor happens to be in charge at the moment.
|
|
#
?
Feb 8, 2024 02:53
|
|
|
Sense’s test is also pretty dang lethal, it’s just the danger isn’t coming from the other applicants, at least directly.
|
|
#
?
Feb 8, 2024 04:46
|
|
|
Rand Brittain posted:A good question is "why did they think they could pass?" Is it not common knowledge that people die fairly often? Does the organization purposely encourage people who can't possibly pass to come and die there? Are they too stupid to live? Is Serie just not very good at writing invitations? Passing one out of three test on your first try aint bad. I don't actually remember what happened to those girls after the point where the anime is right now.
|
|
#
?
Feb 8, 2024 16:14
|
|
|
cant cook creole bream posted:Passing one out of three test on your first try aint bad. If I remember, one or two of them pass the second phase of the test, but then fail the "talk to Serie" phase of the test. Don't think we've seen them since then?
|
|
#
?
Feb 8, 2024 16:58
|
|
|
CodfishCartographer posted:If I remember, one or two of them pass the second phase of the test, but then fail the "talk to Serie" phase of the test. Don't think we've seen them since then? Lawine ate the ear of a cute bunny bun in Edel's flashback
|
|
#
?
Feb 8, 2024 17:04
|
|
|
CodfishCartographer posted:If I remember, one or two of them pass the second phase of the test, but then fail the "talk to Serie" phase of the test. Don't think we've seen them since then? Yeah Lawine (ice girl) flunked round 2, Kanne (water) got laughed out of the room by Serie. Well, rejected for being scared of Serie's mana. And then there was the aforementioned flashback that Eepies mentioned.
|
|
#
?
Feb 8, 2024 17:15
|
|
|
honestly given serie's general attitude the first class exam probably was open to anyone because sometimes there's someone who will turn things upside down and is a truly Magical existence but then her students got tired of having to deal with a million yahoos who get vaporized by demons or other mages who are cool with mowing down people
|
|
#
?
Feb 8, 2024 22:43
|
|
|
An organization headed by an elf that takes forever to get with the times? Huh.
|
|
#
?
Feb 8, 2024 22:54
|
|
|
Rand Brittain posted:A good question is "why did they think they could pass?" Is it not common knowledge that people die fairly often? Does the organization purposely encourage people who can't possibly pass to come and die there? Are they too stupid to live? Is Serie just not very good at writing invitations? I just did a quick reread and before they take the test they read up on the Magic Association. Fun facts include: Fifth class and up are considered "full-fledged mages" and are allowed to take the 1st class exam, but there are classes below that down to 9 where you're just considered an apprentice, and counting those there approximately 2000 (registered) mages in the world. Also casualties in the exam are listed as common, so anybody signing up for the exam either knows what's up or is indeed, a loving idiot. I suppose the prize of a free spell is just too tempting for some underqualified dummies. Anyway I can't find it because the story's just too long with flashbacks spaced out (and the one wiki blows), but wasn't the idea for the Magic Association originally Flamme's? I swear I remember that but it could just be something my shoddy memory cooked up. TwoPair fucked around with this message at 22:58 on Feb 8, 2024 |
|
#
?
Feb 8, 2024 22:55
|
|
|
The flashback you were looking for is in Chapter 53. Flamme convinced the Empire to embrace magic and helped found the Imperial Mages, which she wanted Serie to take over after she died, with Serie declining because she's not interested in everyone knowing magic and that she only wants to teach the most talented mages. It also has Serie saying that the era of humans will arrive in 1000 years. I don't think Serie started the Continental Magic Association to try to suppress mankind's magic potential because I think she knows that would be pointless, she's just disinterested in teaching anyone but the best mages and so the CMA is set up to select for that. I don't know if all the First Class mages are Serie's apprentices is but she at the very least is selecting her current apprentices from the First Class mages
|
|
#
?
Feb 8, 2024 23:18
|
|
|
Allowing 5th class and above makes sense. We're spoiled by the 21st century with air travel and internet, let alone 20th century cars and ships. The test happens in two locations in the world, every three years. I don't remember if they say if its one spot at a time, so it could be that each location actually does their test every 6 years, just with the option of going to the other big city for the 3, or if that means its staggered every 1.5 years, or if they both do it concurrently. Either way, with the scale of the continent you're looking at 3-8 months of travel time for most people to just get to the exam location. Getting there, setup, exam, returning home, that's a big chunk of peoples lives, especially at the point in your life where you're like 30 and really trying to advance your career. Imagine you have to leave home for two years just to take your driver license exam? Its entirely on you to know whether your ready or not. Serie is more than happy to take your exam fees and let your hubris be rewarded if you're not up to the task.
|
|
#
?
Feb 8, 2024 23:48
|
|
|
VideoWitch posted:The flashback you were looking for is in Chapter 53. Flamme convinced the Empire to embrace magic and helped found the Imperial Mages, which she wanted Serie to take over after she died, with Serie declining because she's not interested in everyone knowing magic and that she only wants to teach the most talented mages. It also has Serie saying that the era of humans will arrive in 1000 years. Yeah, from that, it's hard to read that she's at all suppressing magic for unknown ends. She could certainly accelerate it with her vast knowledge, but she specifically is only interested in the best and everyone else can sit and spin. One could make the argument that the system she set up might be suppressing development, but that's maybe a reach on its own. but we know she's not doing it deliberately. She doesn't care enough to do that. It hardly even seems in character for her to do something like that in such a circuitous way.
|
|
#
?
Feb 9, 2024 03:13
|
|
|
wdarkk posted:Sense’s test is also pretty dang lethal, it’s just the danger isn’t coming from the other applicants, at least directly. Sense's test lets you quit and get to safety the second things get rough. If you don't recognize your limits and get sliced open, that's not on her.
|
|
#
?
Feb 10, 2024 02:55
|
|
|
Yeah, Sense's test isn't really less lethal; she just took some time setting up precautions so that nobody would die without having the chance to retreat first. Genau didn't bother because he's a stupid piece of poo poo.
|
|
#
?
Feb 10, 2024 02:57
|
|
|
Even having a chance to retreat was largely a result of luck. Wirbel and Ubel both had spells that would've prevented people from using the bottle. Sense was largely immune to mana detection and only didn't kill Lawine, Richter and Edel due to luck as far as we know. A few small changes and almost everyone in the test would've died.
|
|
#
?
Feb 10, 2024 04:17
|
|
|
Is the Empire Frieren's in right now the same Empire Denken works for?
|
|
#
?
Feb 10, 2024 04:41
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 6, 2024 17:12 |
|
|
They've always referred to The Empire in singular so it'd seem so, but then why would Denken need his first class license to go north, if the place you'd assume he works is even further north than his Midas'd hometown? e: maybe it's an HRE/Byz thing where there's multiple empires but everyone only legally recognizes one apiece.
|
|
#
?
Feb 10, 2024 06:39
|
|
