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At most the 'pressure' is some American diplomat going "C'mon man we're getting killed domestically over this, can you ease up a little?" I mean maybe the US is operating behind the scenes to engineer a solution so sublime and well crafted that a hundred years from now Biden is credited as the greatest peacemaker of the 21st c. but uhhh I think it's more likely that the situation is resolved by aliens showing up and forcing peace on the region. I hope to God we're seeing some movement on a ceasefire, but I don't see how you bring Bibi to the table for it.
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Feb 7, 2024 09:23
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National Parks posted:https://www.reuters.com/world/us/i-am-zionist-how-joe-bidens-lifelong-bond-with-israel-shapes-war-policy-2023-10-21/ He literally screwed over Hillary Clinton (HILLARY CLINTON!!!) from the right on Israel once. The man is a more sincere Zionist than any other President since Truman, and probably more so than him. Nucleic Acids fucked around with this message at 16:47 on Feb 7, 2024 |
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Feb 7, 2024 16:40
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Ms Adequate posted:At most the 'pressure' is some American diplomat going "C'mon man we're getting killed domestically over this, can you ease up a little?" Eh, the State Department and similarly-minded officials were quietly muttering for Netanyahu to calm down from day one. It's not especially hard to parse their reasoning if you have the slightest iota of, well, empathy. Their strategy (mostly) hasn't worked, so it's bad, seeing as it not working means there's an ongoing genocidal invasion, but they're not just okaying sending Israel weapons for shits and giggles. The underlying concept, given so much as a cursory glance at the combination of their actions and their rhetoric, boils down to "we need to keep Israel happy so they'll listen to us and we can avert the worst case scenarios". The two things the US desperately wants to avoid are: - The IDF flipping the switch from War Crimes to Mass Extermination, because that's a bad look and highly detrimental to US interests (and there are people in the admin who don't like civilians being slaughtered, so that's an also-ran motivator), and - The war seriously escalating to Lebanon/Iraq/Iran, because that's a no-poo poo nuclear war risk. The administration also pretty clearly doesn't want Israel to use this as an excuse to destroy the West Bank, which is why that's been the bit where they've taken concrete coercive action. They don't greatly care about Gaza one way or the other but are pretty pro-humanitarian-aid as long as it doesn't cost anything meaningful. Their ideal outcome is the destruction of Hamas (good luck) with a minimum of civilian casualties (horse, barn, door) and going back to not having to think very much about Gaza. Keeping Israel sweet with tank shells (bad, justifiable as not too war crimey if you're a diplomat who wants to sleep at night) and Iron Dome ammunition (frankly, who cares) may or may not be keeping communication lines open to prevent those two things, but it's not a huge amount of comfort to Gaza at the moment. Maybe if the IDF had declared victory and gone home by Christmas. I'm curious whether it had/has anything to do with keeping the insufficient aid going through or the current public negotiations. I'm leaning towards no, or rather, that it's neither necessary nor sufficient to go above and beyond with military aid. Pretty much everything else is either trying to reopen shipping lanes or identical to all other US policy towards Israel for longer than I've been alive. The reasoning there is even less difficult to parse. tldr anyone who thinks the average state department or similar bureaucrat thinks of themselves as pro-genocide needs to log off but institutionally their strategy has clearly failed to avert mass murder in the service of ethnic cleansing, and that's bad
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Feb 7, 2024 19:34
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I think defunding UNWRA based on the IDF’s laughable evidence proves they aren’t at all serious about getting Israel to stop the genocide. Chamberlain was misguided, but he was never supplying the German invasion of the Sudetenland.
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Feb 7, 2024 19:40
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A big flaming stink posted:https://twitter.com/KSAmofaEN/status/1755020860836962666 If the Saudi's mean this, then yes the campaign of Hamas can be considered a victory given they achieved their main objective.
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Feb 7, 2024 19:48
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Pretty much. If the USA was really flexing its institutional muscle to get aid and food into Gaza and curtail the increasing siege of the West Bank, I might believe the whole "We're working super hard to rein in these bloodthirsty israelis, it's a full time job!" spiel. That they instantly plunged a dagger into one of the few UN agencies keeping the situation there survivable based on -zero- evidence tells me that they're just keeping the ethnic cleanse to a media-friendly pace. "We're doing it Homestead Act style, guys, not Sabra and Chatila! Keep it on the DL until it's a fait accompli!"
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Feb 7, 2024 19:51
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Google Jeb Bush posted:.... That line about things being even worse if the US weren't involved is a line the US has used in almost every genocide they've supported, from Yemen in the 2010s to Pakistan with Kissinger, it's always been just a fig leaf. Of course no one in the state department believes they're a monster, that's how the whole system is set up to work. They all believe they're good people making hard choices. Doesn't make them any less culpable or the outcomes any better.
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Feb 7, 2024 20:09
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it must really put a strain on the arms and back to carry this much water for them (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Feb 7, 2024 20:17
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The US was far from the only country to suspend - not abolish, not that it matters in the short to medium term - funding for UNRWA, but it was the first, and presumably impacted the other decisions. Switzerland thought about doing so in december for different nominal reasons. If I'm reading correctly, UNRWA can continue functioning as normal for another three weeks, but it's possible I'm misreading and that's the shut down date, not when it starts impacting Gaza assistance. State Department messaging on UNRWA is a weird mess. At minimum, something very stupid happened behind the scenes in the administration (and Congress is being credulous dumbasses about it too). It's the topic of the first half of this presser: https://www.state.gov/briefings/department-press-briefing-february-5-2024/ Summary: "we recognize unrwa's importance and look forward to the results of the investigation" "why are you suspending funding at a crucial moment based on the alleged actions of a small number of employees who were fired before the suspension" "good question. i have no idea. we recognize unrwa's importance and look forward to the results of the investigation" Fake edit: several news organizations seem to have acquired the short dossier and the universal assessment seems to be "lol wtf"
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Feb 7, 2024 20:17
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In slightly brighter west bank news: Smotrich is trying and failing hilariously to protect the four (...so far?) sanctioned settlers from Finding Out. Turns out Israeli banks don't want to touch them anymore either. lol rip https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news...ster-in-a-bind/ And it looks like these fuckos are in real trouble. https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news...targeting-mean/ if i broke the links by removing the silly number strings at the end, don't blame me, blame yourself or god
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Feb 7, 2024 20:34
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Google Jeb Bush posted:The US was far from the only country to suspend - not abolish, not that it matters in the short to medium term - funding for UNRWA, but it was the first, and presumably impacted the other decisions. Switzerland thought about doing so in december for different nominal reasons. If I'm reading correctly, UNRWA can continue functioning as normal for another three weeks, but it's possible I'm misreading and that's the shut down date, not when it starts impacting Gaza assistance. This doesn’t address the assertion that the US defunding the UNRWA means that the US isn’t pressuring Israel. This is just “well other counties are doing it too and Switzerland wanted to do it before as well”. I’m with the others. The US isnt really pressuring Israel to stop when Biden bypassed Congress to authorize weapon sales and publicly say that there shouldn’t be a ceasefire. theCalamity fucked around with this message at 21:44 on Feb 7, 2024 |
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Feb 7, 2024 21:42
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theCalamity posted:This doesn’t address the assertion that the US defunding the UNRWA means that the US isn’t pressuring Israel. This is just “well other counties are doing it too and Switzerland wanted to do it before as well”. Oh I wasn't clear, that wasn't a rebuttal to the point, it was me reading up on the unrwa thing and posting as I found stuff. My rebuttal, such as it is, is that the US's diplomatic policy toward Israel isn't entirely coherent outside of trying to prevent all out regional war. Backing them (so far) on the dumb unrwa thing doesn't erase their "pretty please don't bomb quite so many civilians" entreaties, whatever is going on behind the scenes with hostage and ceasefire negotiations, and that one ominous mutter about maybe possibly recognizing Palestine, and those largely toothless (so far) appeals to our friendship and Israel's better nature certainly don't erase the material or public affairs contributions to Israel's genocidal project in Gaza. On unrwa specifically I think the messy official State messaging is both interesting and relevant to my point that the administration seems to be institutionally confused / internally conflicted. It fits with their previous kinda incompatible headline positions of "Hamas delenda est" and "we would like Gazans to not all die so we're going to send humanitarian aid and complain when Israel blocks it". They're also making noises about reallocating unrwa aid to other organizations ("temporarily, or based on the outcome of the investigation" but I don't have high hopes with unrwa getting acorned). Even if this is completely on the level, I don't like it, because it's ceding ground on this to the country that desperately wants refugee status for non-Jews to be non-hereditary. E: also, there are like 20k unrwa employees in an organizational structure with local and regional trust and connections that you can't just snap your fingers and replicate in a day Side note that I pulled from my earlier post because I was a bit fuzzy on the context: some news orgs, particularly in the Israeli propaganda end of the spectrum have been citing some '''investigations''' by UN Watch, a nonprofit that claims it's an impartial watchdog and has intermittently done some alright work (afaict) on topics that aren't Israel. And *boy* have these people gone mask off since Oct 7. https://unwatch.org/ If you see a source citing these psychos, maybe reevaluate that source, and probably throw the thing they're saying at that moment in the garbage. I mention it in this context because they're laundering or producing some really despicable propaganda about unrwa. tbh I'm wondering if they're linked to the dossier Israel gave the un Goatse James Bond fucked around with this message at 23:19 on Feb 7, 2024 |
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Feb 7, 2024 23:14
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Google Jeb Bush posted:Oh I wasn't clear, that wasn't a rebuttal to the point, it was me reading up on the unrwa thing and posting as I found stuff. My rebuttal, such as it is, is that the US's diplomatic policy toward Israel isn't entirely coherent outside of trying to prevent all out regional war. Backing them (so far) on the dumb unrwa thing doesn't erase their "pretty please don't bomb quite so many civilians" entreaties, whatever is going on behind the scenes with hostage and ceasefire negotiations, and that one ominous mutter about maybe possibly recognizing Palestine, and those largely toothless (so far) appeals to our friendship and Israel's better nature certainly don't erase the material or public affairs contributions to Israel's genocidal project in Gaza. I think your recent cluster of posts is meant as a response to this quote:At most the 'pressure' is some American diplomat going "C'mon man we're getting killed domestically over this, can you ease up a little?" And you're probably right that career diplomats in the state department aren't pro-genocide. But this elides the fact that, since Kissinger at least, US presidents have consistently sidelined and ignored the advice of career diplomats in the state department, and have yielded to political pressure from the Zionist lobby. I don't mean to be all "read this book" as a rebuttal, but one of the most eye-opening things I learned from reading this boring-rear end collection of primary sources on the conflict was that our foreign policy experts more-or-less correctly predicted the disastrous consequences of yielding to zionist demands, but in every case were ignored or dismissed. Anyway, more to the point: I think the original poster you replied to was using "some American diplomat" as a proxy for "the official US position as enacted by people who actually make the decisions", not "the view of foreign policy experts at the state department". I imagine that the foreign policy experts know how disastrous US policy has been and continues to be, and are, to the minimal extent that they are able, attempting to minimize it. Everything that I've read seems to indicate that Biden is (like just about every previous US president) refusing to listen to the experts because he is a sincere 100% true believing zionist. You're likely right that there is some internal tension, but the tension is almost assuredly between Biden himself (a committed zionist who cannot display a shred of empathy for the Palestinians, even to save his rear end in the election) and experts who understand how badly he is loving up. But, frankly, the existence of some tension in the absence of concrete actions to avert the starvation of 2 million people doesn't count for poo poo. Moreover, I'm not sure what the point of defending the honor of the state department experts is, when the guy who actually makes the decisions is perfectly OK letting tens of thousands of children get murdered or mutilated / facilitating the starvation of, again, two million loving people. Yes, it would be better if people who know that it's not 1973 anymore were calling the shots, but they're not. Genocide Joe is, and there's no indication that he's going to change course. Ultimately, it does not matter what the administration wants if the guy in charge is totally unwilling to exert any leverage to ensure that it gets what it wants. I've said this in a few previous posts, but just to re-iterate: Time is running out for Gazans. Without a massive and immediate increase in the amount of aid that gets through, cholera and starvation are going to finish off almost everyone that Israeli bombs haven't. "We wrote a position paper praising UNRWA" isn't going to absolve the Biden admin (or the US collectively) from responsibility here. Honestly, I have a lot of trouble understanding what your point of view is. You seem to acknowledge that Israel is committing a genocide and that the Biden administration is aiding and abetting said genocide, but you consistently try to minimize Biden's responsibility by implying that he's working to end the genocide behind the scenes. As far as I can tell there's no evidence at all for that, and a decent body of evidence that points to Biden (& Blinken) categorically refusing the advice of career experts, other administration officials, and democratic interest groups (Black pastors, unions, etc) who are urging him to use some kind of leverage. It's as if you've assented to all of the premises that lead to the conclusion "Joe Biden is OK with the genocide of the Palestinian people", but can't bring yourself to follow through on the inference.
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Feb 8, 2024 00:32
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There are a bunch of reasons I bang on about the Biden admin and not Joe Biden, here and on other topics (except maybe labor i guess), and specifically refer to the administration and not the guy. It seems plausible enough to me that he's on the end of the administration that hates Hamas and doesn't especially care about the people of Gaza. Which yes, isn't good on the guy with whom the buck stops. If you want to ascribe the less poo poo end of the administration on Gaza as despite Biden rather than because of him, then... sure? Your argument seems reasonable? The people who wrote that complaint letter wanting a ceasefire weeks/months ago sure aren't driving the bus.
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Feb 8, 2024 00:51
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Unlike the full on genocide participation of Joe Biden, the Biden admin is an anonymous letter short of full on genocide participation. It amounts to the same on the ground, and all are complicit. They can prove they are against genocide with actions.
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Feb 8, 2024 06:38
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Gnumonic posted:Anyway, more to the point: I think the original poster you replied to was using "some American diplomat" as a proxy for "the official US position as enacted by people who actually make the decisions", not "the view of foreign policy experts at the state department". I imagine that the foreign policy experts know how disastrous US policy has been and continues to be, and are, to the minimal extent that they are able, attempting to minimize it. More or less, yeah; I can certainly believe that the Biden administration has tried to ask Israel to scale back or stop the campaign, but upon being told to gently caress off, have continued acting in exactly the same supportive way.
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Feb 8, 2024 09:29
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Google Jeb Bush posted:There are a bunch of reasons I bang on about the Biden admin and not Joe Biden, here and on other topics (except maybe labor i guess), and specifically refer to the administration and not the guy. It seems plausible enough to me that he's on the end of the administration that hates Hamas and doesn't especially care about the people of Gaza. Which yes, isn't good on the guy with whom the buck stops. this is the thread for discussing Israel/Palestine, not various other topics including labor. Someone toward the end of the last page just made the case that Biden is specifically and uniquely the most Zionist president since 1948 and that influences administration policy. That is what everyone else was talking about. The Biden admin generally and whether or not State Department functionaries in their secret little hearts support genocide was not something anyone else had raised. So I understand neither what the point of your intervention was nor why you're so much using weird hedging language here as you discuss it. No one here was asking if their argument "seemed reasonable", so your insistence on long discursive explanations to questions no one asked while slipping in "no yeah that totally makes sense" doesn't feel like a good faith response, it feels like a sudden shift to a question no one was talking about, and since you have a star, that decision feels loaded. Either call an argument reasonable or unreasonable or don't engage with it. "seems reasonable" "if you want" is nothing. Valentin fucked around with this message at 16:21 on Feb 8, 2024 |
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Feb 8, 2024 14:05
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hadji murad posted:Unlike the full on genocide participation of Joe Biden, the Biden admin is an anonymous letter short of full on genocide participation. Yeah this anonymous state department muttering is impotent and cowardly rear end-covering not a strategy to stop Israel's genocide. To contend otherwise is absolutely baffling.
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Feb 8, 2024 14:24
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deadking posted:Yeah this anonymous state department muttering is impotent and cowardly rear end-covering not a strategy to stop Israel's genocide. To contend otherwise is absolutely baffling.
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Feb 8, 2024 14:26
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Staluigi posted:besides the whole thing where israel just decides that full-blown violent ethnic cleansing of the palestinians is just something they get to do, the way they did this UNRWA poo poo feels to me like that israel's decades and decades of using their free hall pass for genocide and violent reprisal completely dissolved their ABILITY to bother with offering real evidence or justification for the poo poo they do. like, in this case they don't care and so they haven't even bothered, but they also just lost the capacity to not make this look like total obvious bullshit, and it really shows the second they start trying to offer their version of evidence. like the ACORN comparison is spot on, because the whole op feels exactly as cynical and shoddy as literally project veritas, but this time representing a whole nation The big thing that people are picking up on is that Israel has correctly determined that the only thing that matters wrt their ability to keep doing whatever they want is whether or not they can maintain American support. A lot of their efforts are very clumsy if not even counter productive globally, but they've still unfortunately been broadly very effective on the American audience they're targeting. particularly among natsec people and really anyone with any latent islamaphobia leftover from the last several decades, that early wave of israeli propaganda about alleged utterly over the top crimes by hamas was incredibly effective at framing the conflict. Sephyr posted:Pretty much. If the USA was really flexing its institutional muscle to get aid and food into Gaza and curtail the increasing siege of the West Bank, I might believe the whole "We're working super hard to rein in these bloodthirsty israelis, it's a full time job!" spiel. Yeah if the US generally or more specifically any significant part of the Biden admin or even Biden himself gave a single gently caress about stopping this in any real way it would be finished overnight. If mobilizing humanitarian aid was a priority it would look like the height of the American aid transfer to Ukraine instead the absolute farce of a trickle that it actually is. When the US wants something to happen in a real way and isn't just stalling and making PR-motivated noises you can tell because heaven and earth get moved to make it happen. as an aside, I don't doubt for one second that many, many people in State generally hate what is happening as it is full of bleeding heart liberal internationalist types (as it should be, those are the kind of people you want running your day-to-day foreign policy), but they clearly have basically zero impact on policy Herstory Begins Now fucked around with this message at 04:46 on Feb 9, 2024 |
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Feb 9, 2024 04:35
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This is an interesting article from Bloomberg: Chinese Ships Get Cheaper Insurance to Navigate Red SeaBloomberg posted:“The market is reflecting the lower risk profile faced by Chinese- and Hong Kong-connected vessels, as shown in the increased Asian-flagged and connected tonnage transiting the region,” said Munro Anderson, head of operations at marine war risk and insurance specialist Vessel Protect. “That said, despite a declaration of safe passage by the Houthis, there are no guarantees that incidents of miscalculation can be avoided.” Setting aside whether Israeli-connected ships are being specifically selected for, this does seem to indicate that the Houthis aren't selecting for Chinese vessels.
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Feb 9, 2024 18:28
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It would seem so. And to be honest the UK, US and Israeli linked ships having to pay a premium also seems to indicate the Houthi's are targeting them in as much as they are avoiding Chinese vessels.
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Feb 10, 2024 12:36
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One of a thousand tragic little stories in Gaza has, sadly, had the expected ending. https://x.com/taj_ali1/status/1756238755906658554?s=46&t=ARI_L-v32Oind1-d9B3a3Q https://x.com/taj_ali1/status/1756244758572241007?s=46&t=ARI_L-v32Oind1-d9B3a3Q
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Feb 10, 2024 12:51
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Translating from the DK national broadcaster's coverage of this:quote:A family member called the Palestinian Red Crescent and said that the car had been attacked in Gaza. Only two girls were still alive: Hind and her 15 year-old second cousin Layan, whose phone number he shared.
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Feb 10, 2024 18:28
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Jesus Christ. You'd hope that this would do something. Anything to cause politicians to rethink their support of the IOF.
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Feb 10, 2024 18:30
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"A Palestinian source alleges children have interacted with munitions in an IDF adjacent incident involved with Israel's war against Hamas, the Iranian backed organization that launched the horrific attack on October 7th that killed 1200 Israelis..." Edit I'm sure my meaning was clear enough to anybody who catches mainstream coverage of the conflict. But for additional content, even if people had a better relationship to the levers of the world (in the US, for example,, a realistic presidential candidate who would try to stop this in earnest), I don't see a lot of hope they would. Given how reporting usually sounds and the supremely lovely stuff I've heard anecdotally. "If it's so bad there [gaza] why do they have so many children?" "What about the holocaust? Let me know when six million Palestinians die!" "They had to know voting for Hamas would lead to this!" None of these folks are Israeli, Jewish, or relublicans. It's just a self defense mechanism, because we are obviously the good guys so it can't be as terrible as it is. BRJurgis fucked around with this message at 19:41 on Feb 10, 2024 |
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Feb 10, 2024 19:26
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You could analyze the actual reporting instead of making up what you think it would look like you know. The tone has been shifted since October and November when everyone was stumbling over themselves to mention that the Gazan health ministry is "Hamas Run". The media is definitely still being soft in Israel and it's sickening that it took this long for it to even get here but you're vastly overstating where it is now. Here's CNN's article: https://www.cnn.com/2024/02/10/middleeast/hind-rajab-death-israel-gaza-intl/index.html posted:On January 29, Hind Rajab had been traveling in a car with her uncle, his wife and their four children, fleeing fighting in northern Gaza, when they came under Israeli fire, according to the Palestine Red Crescent Society (PRCS). The Washington Post had pretty detailed coverage of the event before they found the scene: https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2024/02/02/gaza-city-rescue-palestine-red-crescent/ It's a little more wishy washy but less was known at that point. Weirdly they have not reported on the new details. The NYTimes article doesn't include the horrifying quotes but they've stopped referring to the Gazan health ministry as "Hamas run" and pretty neutrally refer to 7 Oct compared to earlier reporting. The description of Israel's targeting of aid workers is not exactly what I would describe as passive either. https://www.nytimes.com/2024/02/10/world/middleeast/hind-rajab-gaza.html posted:A 6-year-old Palestinian girl and the two rescuers who went looking for her nearly two weeks ago were found dead on Saturday, the Palestine Red Crescent said, ending a desperate effort to discover their fates. Reuters basically has the same article structure and tone as CNN: https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/body-gaza-girl-ambulance-team-trapped-under-israeli-fire-found-after-12-days-2024-02-10/ The grauniad's reporting leads with the emotional quotes and doesn't mince words: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/feb/10/im-so-scared-please-come-hind-rajab-six-found-dead-in-gaza-12-days-after-cry-for-help
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Feb 10, 2024 21:33
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Fair enough my bad. I'll admit that aside from this thread and generally listening to NPR, I've stopped seeking out coverage of the conflict. Unsustainably enraging. I'm glad of the seeming shift in tone, although I won't forget the prolonged initial response. Nor could I say my anecdotal subjects are ready to condemn the actions of Israel and the US, having been programmed so.
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Feb 10, 2024 22:05
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BRJurgis posted:Fair enough my bad. I'll admit that aside from this thread and generally listening to NPR, I've stopped seeking out coverage of the conflict. Unsustainably enraging. Yeah that makes sense and I appreciate this reply. It's been an absolute morass and to stare too long at the reporting only saps the energy required to get out and participate in actions which are hopefully changing some minds imo.
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Feb 10, 2024 22:20
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https://twitter.com/leftiblog/status/1756398055358877875 I know this sort of thing shouldn’t shock me at this point, but how is someone able to do the equivalent of denying the Holocaust on air and remain employed?
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Feb 10, 2024 23:18
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Nucleic Acids posted:https://twitter.com/leftiblog/status/1756398055358877875 It's debated! The fact that one side has no reasonable case doesn't change that fact.
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Feb 11, 2024 00:18
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Kagrenak posted:Yeah that makes sense and I appreciate this reply. It's been an absolute morass and to stare too long at the reporting only saps the energy required to get out and participate in actions which are hopefully changing some minds imo. For my part, the only personal interaction I feel I have with changing or improving any of this is trying to talk to people about it, and out in real life I've all but given up on this subject. I'm privileged enough to be able to broach climate change and patriotism and capitalism with people, even if they won't be swayed at least other people may participate or listen. I've never had to disengage as a near rule. But Israel Palestine seems impossible. If they don't flat out refuse to discuss it, people will become so upset as to loudly leave, angry enough as to not be reachable (and endanger further discussion), or say something you'll want to (yet won't be able to) forget. These aren't mutually exclusive. In fact, (and I can't stress enough how I don't want to arm zionist rhetoric), of the relatively few people who don't fall into the other camps, several of the remaining have insisted on bringing up "jews owning the media/banks". It just seems absolutely intractably hosed. It's Israel's perverse anti-semite dome, but worse still. We shouldn't and can't just not face it, though. How could that ever work? I don't have any polling or articles, but my experience with not being able to discuss this with so many is a first in my adult lifetime.
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Feb 11, 2024 01:52
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Nucleic Acids posted:https://twitter.com/leftiblog/status/1756398055358877875 those villagers chose to leave the houses we set fire to, thats on them.
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Feb 11, 2024 02:23
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Honestly here in the West we just kind of pretend that Israel just kind of appeared and that there was no real violence involved
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Feb 11, 2024 03:17
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Yeah, the propaganda is strong. I always heard "The day Israel declared independence, the Arab states invaded." Even as someone who has been anti-israel for 20 years and kept up with the news and all their abuses, I believed that. I figured it was true but didn't justify anything 70 years later. But this year I found out that it's just another of their loving lies! The Arab states never invaded Israel! They entered Palestine. Where Israel already had forces. Israel had already invaded Palestine. I honestly don't know if I learned a single true thing about Israel growing up.
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Feb 11, 2024 03:49
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Everyone left to avoid the war thinking Israel would get smoked, and whoopsie they won. Too bad about your houses but you sided with team arab
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Feb 11, 2024 03:51
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FlamingLiberal posted:Honestly here in the West we just kind of pretend that Israel just kind of appeared and that there was no real violence involved There are youtube interviews with various paramilitary participants in the founding of Israel, or at least there was when I wrote a paper on the topic back in 2015/2016. The people they talk to describe wholesale genocide without batting an eye about it. The whole thing is absolutely repellant.
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Feb 11, 2024 06:44
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Grip it and rip it posted:There are youtube interviews with various paramilitary participants in the founding of Israel, or at least there was when I wrote a paper on the topic back in 2015/2016. The people they talk to describe wholesale genocide without batting an eye about it. The whole thing is absolutely repellant.
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Feb 11, 2024 06:53
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Jimbozig posted:Yeah, the propaganda is strong. I always heard "The day Israel declared independence, the Arab states invaded." Even as someone who has been anti-israel for 20 years and kept up with the news and all their abuses, I believed that. I figured it was true but didn't justify anything 70 years later. Really? Do you have a link for this? I’m in the same boat, except for the learning about it this year thing.
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Feb 11, 2024 10:05
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| # ? May 25, 2024 14:45 |
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MickeyFinn posted:Really? Do you have a link for this? I’m in the same boat, except for the learning about it this year thing. It's one of the most commonly-spouted beliefs. Variations of "As soon as Israel declared independence it was invaded unprovoked by six Arab armies bent on throwing Jews into the sea". See eg:  https://history.state.gov/milestone...2014%2C%201948. (no mention of Nakba, refugees etc)  https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/arab-armies-invade-may-1948 (No mention of Nakba, refugees etc but also a good example of common framing: aggressive, violent, bloodthirsty megatech Arabs invaded poor little Israel) This stuff was super common even just a decade ago. I think now the Nakba is actually much more prevalent in consciousness. So eg that soft Nakba denial MSNBC bit is actually a substantial improvement to "WHO KNOWS WHY PALESTINIANS ARE SO UPPITY *shrugs*" positions from the 2000s. E: oh, wait a sec, I misread your post. You're probably more interested about the war. 'The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine' by Ilan Pappe is a good, accessible read. 'The Hundred Years' War on Palestine' by Nur Masalha is great. Hong XiuQuan fucked around with this message at 10:44 on Feb 11, 2024 |
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Feb 11, 2024 10:38
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