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Isn't that just Bioshock?
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Feb 4, 2024 19:03
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| # ? May 15, 2024 07:34 |
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Regarde Aduck posted:You've really misunderstood moralism. My post was made in the context of explaining why Empathy, of all traits, introduces Moralism. It's because the intro to Moralism is not about the economics. The economics might be the most essentially true and powerful part of Moralism, but if you just understand the economics then you have no chance of understanding its actual place in the world. Also, I do think the Moralist package is a bit more specific than just Neoliberalism. It is a Neoliberal ideology, but it is more specifically Dolores Dei's whole deal. And her whole deal was, generally speaking, the Enlightenment, and she's specifically credited with parliamentary democracy and the welfare state. In practice Neoliberalism serves only capital, absolutely. But it was established to be a more rational, humane way of running a society. Even if we have a solid grasp on what an ideology objectively does, I don't think we can just ignore the intention behind it. Not directly related to this, but I was recently reading an Anarchist take on the Enlightenment, emphasizing that it was at the outset a radical, bottom up, rebellious intellectual movement. Shortly after it swept its way through European society it was used for scientific racism to justify imperialism and so on, and today people rightly look askance at it for what it has done. In a lot of ways it is the ideological authority against which any new idea has to rebel. It's kind of depressing, considering what the Enlightenment was. "Centrism is control," indeed. I feel like the cold unsettling "humanism" of Dolores Dei captures the way a modern radical might feel looking back on the Enlightenment. What she's saying is good, but slightly too inhuman. You know it won't quite work out the way she thinks it should.
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Feb 4, 2024 19:51
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Well moralism is centrism because it is the ruling ideology in the same way that in the real world liberalism is centrism. You have Moralists who support the ideology of Dolores Day as originally formulated. I think Tiago might be the closest to that among the characters. You have Moralists who support the ideology of the Moralintern as presented by them. Kim used to be a Moralist like that. You have Moralists who support the ideology of the Moralintern as implemented by them. TSF is our Moralist here. Arguably also the Moralist vision quest. You have Moralists who support he current system no matter which it is. "Kingdom of conscience" thought does represent that kind of Moralism. Arguably Kim is a Moralist in that sense currently. The most interesting comparison is imo, Kim (and pre-dlc moralist harry) vs. Gaston. They support the current rulers of Revachol because they are the current Rulers. Gaston supports the current rulers of Martinese because they are the current rulers. The actual decision point is not about ideology, but about current place of living. If moralist harry moved into a dumpster in Martinese instead of Jamrock, he would be an Everat supporter.
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Feb 4, 2024 20:06
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What I'm reading is that you all don't like or appreciate the stable price of bread. smdh
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Feb 4, 2024 22:51
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MariusLecter posted:What I'm reading is that you all don't like or appreciate the stable price of bread. smdh (At least, she would try, and then they would kill her again.)
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Feb 4, 2024 23:26
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The "sensitive" case for moralism is pretty explicit and straightforward: revolution inevitably involves mass suffering, and putting basically everyone in your society into serious danger, with only the potential of producing a better world, so to try to bring it about is to gamble with other people's lives, which is wrong. quote:EMPATHY: Do you believe the status quo is preferable to chaos and bloodshed? If it's not ethical to organize a militia to make bread free, then the best we can do is organize a committee to stabilize its price. Of course this isn't the justification for the choices made by the Moralintern itself who are perfectly willing to implement chaos and bloodshed to defend a regulated market economy ("the bourgeois are not human.") But it's why someone like Kim is a moralist. Communist/fascist/ultraliberal revolution? That's crazy, there'd be mass violence and famine, maybe another People's Pile. Better to make a small positive difference every day. Another way of putting it would be that, however the Empathy character is set up, it's more sensitive to the "hot terror" than the "cold terror" to use Mark Twain's terms. Or, being an emotional and not an intellectual trait, it's capable of inferring "revolutions are scary" but not "much of the suffering I observe would be resolved by radical political transitions." Civilized Fishbot fucked around with this message at 23:34 on Feb 4, 2024 |
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Feb 4, 2024 23:32
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I've always assumed that the Moralintern's airships are not new or being made anymore, they are leftovers from when they were required to achieve their position. There were probably a lot more of them at one point, and they were annihilated, and the few that remain to uphold the doctrine are pretending they're the real winners. Thus the reliance on such stellar operatives as Harry and Kim to keep upholding the guise of stabilit CJacobs fucked around with this message at 23:37 on Feb 4, 2024 |
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Feb 4, 2024 23:32
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Revachol did fight back for a bit and then had more than ten years of resistance in the form of guerrilla warfare (especially in West Revachol) but they certainly didn’t annihilate the Coalition air forces — Martinaise got leveled by them to make the beachhead. e: plus warship Archer has a nuke should the locals decide to have any funny ideas
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Feb 4, 2024 23:38
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CJacobs posted:I've always assumed that the Moralintern's airships are not new or being made anymore, they are leftovers from when they were required to achieve their position. There were probably a lot more of them at one point, and they were annihilated, and the few that remain to uphold the doctrine are pretending they're the real winners. Thus the reliance on such stellar operatives as Harry and Kim to keep upholding the guise of stabilit Why would you think this? To the extent that the Moralintern is the standin for the modern neoliberal status quo it seems like it would have a big high tech military for Humanitarian Interventions and cost plus procurement contracts.
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Feb 4, 2024 23:46
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Well... if they had more guns, we wouldn't have pepperbox pistols to fight automatic rifles, I suppose is my line of thought. It just seems like they're struggling to find new methods of control, including going out of their way to abduct some random guy who climbed on a statue and claimed he found a Pale spot.
CJacobs fucked around with this message at 02:36 on Feb 5, 2024 |
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Feb 5, 2024 02:33
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CJacobs posted:Well... if they had more guns, we wouldn't have pepperbox pistols, I suppose is my line of thought. The RCM is deliberately under-equipped and underfunded, Kim outright says this at one point. Supposedly to prevent escalation, but very clearly to prevent them from becoming part of an uprising, especially with the heavy implication that they're descended from remnants of the revolutionary army who started acting as a police force so the Moralintern wouldn't massacre them. Compare the futuristic equipment the mercenaries have, despite being a distinctly unprofessional band of murderers whose job is to brutally massacre anyone who even thinks about wanting to be paid more than a pittance, and anyone nearby.
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Feb 5, 2024 02:36
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The radiocomputer gaming rigs of people in wealthier parts of the world are probably super cool too.
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Feb 5, 2024 02:39
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CJacobs posted:Well... if they had more guns, we wouldn't have pepperbox pistols to fight automatic rifles, I suppose is my line of thought. It just seems like they're struggling to find new methods of control, including going out of their way to abduct some random guy who climbed on a statue and claimed he found a Pale spot. “We” aren’t the Moralintern though, we’re the heavily and purposefully demilitarized collaborator-police the Moralintern allows after its occupation of Revachol.. (We are planning a revolution anyway though!) I agree that they’re struggling for control, but I don’t think it’s because they lack a large military industrial complex. Before any cops got involved in Martinaise, Wild Pines was shipping in a mercenary kill squad, and that’s in an indirect way an expression of Moralintern power.
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Feb 5, 2024 03:27
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Ghost Leviathan posted:Compare the futuristic equipment the mercenaries have, despite being a distinctly unprofessional band of murderers whose job is to brutally massacre anyone who even thinks about wanting to be paid more than a pittance, and anyone nearby. The merc's gear isn't even that futuristic, though. Ruud's gun is described as a nock cannon and Raul's pistol is scary because it's a revolver. Even the Fairweather armor seems to be a take on the failed Dragon Skin It's mentioned specifically that the reason guns in DE are so primitive are because of the Moralintern's strict gun control laws.
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Feb 5, 2024 03:28
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Thought it was because the whole stealing ideas and stuff from the future. Like I'm sure they could perceive a lot of advanced stuff but they still have to work with their MATAERIAL CONDITION or something blah blah.
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Feb 5, 2024 04:06
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Youremother posted:The merc's gear isn't even that futuristic, though. Maybe not compared to rl tech, but in the context of the game it's made clear that they vastly out-tech/out-gun the RCM and the Hardie Boys
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Feb 5, 2024 04:18
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The RCM (as well as the union enforcers) was a civilian movement aimed at restoring order, since I assume the occupation was more interested in stopping dissent and protecting Moralintern's economic interests than community policing. We still see an example of the latter in the game but my thought would be after 40 years of occupation Moralintern sees Revachol as too broken to ever be a serious threat again and is fine with mostly handing over the anti-revolutionary job to the underfunded and underequipped local force, and has stopped investing their own resources in it as much.
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Feb 5, 2024 04:29
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They think it’s going to be eaten by the pale, why worry about it.
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Feb 5, 2024 04:32
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Youremother posted:The merc's gear isn't even that futuristic, though. Ruud's gun is described as a nock cannon and Raul's pistol is scary because it's a revolver. Even the Fairweather armor seems to be a take on the failed Dragon Skin It's space marine armor light redux -- if you get the Fairweather thought, Harry figures out it is pretty much invulnerable to anything they have, which is why the answer is "shoot at not it". With the whole Pale and physical history forces deal, anachronism is a very strong and constant theme in DE. Franconigerian cavalry wore lamellar armor with long-barreled rifles to stomp everybody into submission and implementing global currency. Cars look proto-cyberpunk Model Ts while (apparently?) horses are common in Revachol if you have enough Esprit-de-Corps, captain Pryce is going home on horseback when Harry ponders about the popular will of the RCM
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Feb 5, 2024 04:37
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The RCM::The Anbar Awakening don't @ me I failed the SATs
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Feb 5, 2024 04:42
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I find it interesting that it's mentioned that the population of the world is 4,6 billion which hasn't been the case in real life since the early 80s.
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Feb 5, 2024 04:56
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FreudianSlippers posted:I find it interesting that it's mentioned that the population of the world is 4,6 billion which hasn't been the case in real life since the early 80s. It takes a good deal of combing, but there's enough to infer that Elysium has an 80s placement but in terms of spirit of the age, it would be pretty close to our times in a sort-of translation. Disco is dead, electronic music is popping up, yet strikes are coming back and people are thinking about communism again. quote:YOU - "What century?"
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Feb 5, 2024 05:18
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A legit sequel would definitely be called DISCO INFERNO. Don't @ me.
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Feb 5, 2024 05:21
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It's a thematic mix of a lot of things. Post-WW2, post-Cold War End of History, the 80s and modern times. Especially emphasised that Revachol is not on the cutting edge. Anachronism is also a theme as there's kind of implications that the overall world is more like a strategy game, like Civilization. The Pale has vibes of being fog of war, among other things, and Dolores Dei is constantly alikened to someone playing a game, with wargame miniatures, and her repeatedly launching seemingly pointless and doomed expeditions into the Pale only to finally discovered a new continent has vibes of someone metagaming, using knowledge they shouldn't have at that point to skip ahead and gain advantages. There's a mystical and pseudoscience dimension to every political alignment; communist plasm, fascist magic and race science, ultraliberal fetishisation of the market and light-bending wealth, and the moralists have both ze price stabilitie and implications they've basically gotten where they are by cheating, stealing from the future, and using it to make sure no one else gets to have a future. Moralists are very end-of-history centrist neoliberals; any kind of meaningful change is utterly unacceptable because things are supposed to be gently sliding into their proper place. And they're letting the order that upholds them crumble because it's become utterly unthinkable to actually do any meaningful maintenance on anything.
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Feb 5, 2024 05:33
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This is a weird thing to ask but I'm talking to someone on a facebook page who's panicking because (endgame spoilers) Joyce has left the fishing village, and is no longer available to hand in the Jam Mystery quest. He's concerned because it means he doesn't have her info or the tattoo info. I said not to worry about it, that it helps but it's not vital, but now I'm just checking that's not load-bearing info to stop Kim getting shot at the tribunal. I could probably find out by trawling a bunch of wikis, but I just thought someone might know off-hand.
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Feb 7, 2024 16:19
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AFAIK, whether Kim gets shot or not purely comes down to the check at the very moment it happens, and there’s no way to avoid/accidentally auto-fail it.
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Feb 7, 2024 16:23
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Cool, I just didn't want to find out I gave him bad advice (the standard "don't worry about it, it helps but it's not vital, sometimes failing checks can lead to more interesting outcomes" etc etc).
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Feb 7, 2024 16:32
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There is exactly one vital check in the game, the DC 24 shivers check to find the hideout. Everything else is tone.
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Feb 7, 2024 16:41
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Mystic Mongol posted:There is exactly one vital check in the game, the shivers check to find the phasmid. Everything else is tone. Fixed
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Feb 7, 2024 21:59
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Bobby Deluxe posted:I said not to worry about it, that it helps but it's not vital, but now I'm just checking that's not load-bearing info to stop Kim getting shot at the tribunal. I could probably find out by trawling a bunch of wikis, but I just thought someone might know off-hand. It has no impact whatsoever, that info all contributes to the Hand/Eye Coordination check to shoot Korty, which is required to save Titus, but the only strict requirement is that you have a gun/bomb equipped, everything else is a chance at getting a modifier at most. The check you're thinking of is always available, and the only modifiers are your reputation with Kim. It's easier if he likes you, presumably harder if he dislikes you, and nothing else affects it.
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Feb 7, 2024 23:10
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Mystic Mongol posted:There is exactly one vital check in the game, the check to get the necktie off the fan. Everything else is tone.
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Feb 8, 2024 00:53
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Mystic Mongol posted:There is exactly one vital check in the game, get Kim on the dance floor. Everything else is tone.
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Feb 8, 2024 00:57
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Mystic Mongol posted:There is exactly one vital check in the game, the spin kicking Measurehead. Everything else is tone.
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Feb 8, 2024 01:00
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Mystic Mongol posted:There is exactly one vital check in the game, the kick the furnace and have a fatal final heart attack. Everything else is tone.
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Feb 8, 2024 01:46
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correct
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Feb 8, 2024 02:15
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Mystic Mongol posted:There is exactly one vital check in the game, the DC 24 shivers check to find the hideout. Everything else is tone.  pretty sure there are several, somebody correct me otherwise, I haven't seen some of the permutations myself:- prove your authority to titus (authority check) - get the whole story from titus (rhetoric) - convince titus ruby could've done it so he tells you what he knows (logic) => if you fail one of these three times, kim will step in on the third and bail you out - The Big Shivers Check (after talking to the washerwoman, getting the key to the shack and poking around in there, then talking to her again and learning ruby went up the coast) => this has like a dozen modifiers and a sidequest to reopen it after enough failures - choice between phys instrument or savoir faire to get inside the feld building (if there's a failsafe for this I don't know it) - visual calculus check on klaasje's replaced broken window to get the island/B''' as a potential location for the shooter => post-tribunal, viscal will refuse to let you fail this and keep the check open if you do so far as I know, every other check in the game you can beef or ignore, and these are the only ones that must be passed to see the end credits
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Feb 8, 2024 02:22
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You can win "One More Door" if you reload enough. Just keep trying.
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Feb 8, 2024 05:09
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Rogue AI Goddess posted:Dolores Dei didn't give an entroponetic gently caress about the stable price of bread, and she would burn Moralintern to the ground if she came back.
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Feb 8, 2024 10:29
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goblin week posted:deep in the P hole 
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Feb 8, 2024 10:41
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| # ? May 15, 2024 07:34 |
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pyrrholidon!
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Feb 8, 2024 10:55
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