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it's amazing to me that gimp, the program for which we have gtk, still is using gtk2
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Feb 6, 2024 23:53
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Visions of Valerie posted:it's amazing to me that gimp, the program for which we have gtk, still is using gtk2
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Feb 6, 2024 23:54
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its not that amazing, gtk3 and gtk4 add nothing useful but break compatibility
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Feb 6, 2024 23:57
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Cybernetic Vermin posted:overall this was a good attempt at a slow burn troll up to the point where you pretended to illustrate a point about making good ui leading with gimp. show me in my post where i said gimp had a good ui
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Feb 6, 2024 23:57
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lol at the idea that thinking tiling window managers are stupid is trolling
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Feb 6, 2024 23:58
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pseudorandom name posted:its not that amazing, gtk3 and gtk4 add nothing useful but break compatibility There are a lotta bad things for sure and I'm absolutely not going to defend those, but there are desirable changes as well, especially as regards to dealing with gpus. This is why Inkscape cares enough to work in porting; there's also reasons why browsers bother instead of going "stuff you all" and staying with gtk2 forever (because you know they absolutely could do that).
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Feb 7, 2024 00:03
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My hot take is that people who want floating windows should have floating windows and people who want tiling should have tiling
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Feb 7, 2024 00:10
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mystes posted:My hot take is that people who want floating windows should have floating windows and people who want tiling should have tiling well duh, but we can discuss the merits of either within the logical confines of one person not literally having a gun to another's head forcing them to choose. like saying "it's just your opinion" yeah no fuckin poo poo dude, whose else was it supposed to be
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Feb 7, 2024 00:22
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get this: i3 lets you have tiled windows and floating windows
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Feb 7, 2024 00:24
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Silver Alicorn posted:get this: i3 lets you have tiled windows and floating windows Not in wayland!
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Feb 7, 2024 00:32
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sway
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Feb 7, 2024 00:33
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mycophobia posted:well duh, but we can discuss the merits of either within the logical confines of one person not literally having a gun to another's head forcing them to choose. like saying "it's just your opinion" yeah no fuckin poo poo dude, whose else was it supposed to be
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Feb 7, 2024 00:38
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mystes posted:maybe this isn't something that it's permissible to say in a post on the internet but what if it's purely a matter of personal preference and there aren't really technical advantages and disadvantages for one or the other? have it your way brother
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Feb 7, 2024 00:55
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I'm not really sold on this wayland business
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Feb 7, 2024 01:19
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Silver Alicorn posted:I'm not really sold on this wayland business
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Feb 7, 2024 01:22
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you should hire a team of developers to make wayland 2
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Feb 7, 2024 02:29
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copeland
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Feb 7, 2024 02:31
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shackleford posted:copeland
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Feb 7, 2024 02:37
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I really like KDE’s built in tiling. super easy to configure and snap stuff but also easy to get floating windows when you need to occasionally break convention. I don’t think I’d like a full time tiling wm but I’m also not a terminal user for work. I’ve been thinking about how far this has all come. in the ‘00s I wound up using fluxbox because it worked and the poo poo laptop I was using benefited from the simplicity and now there are several very good options that rival or surpass what trillion dollar companies can produce. that said gently caress GNOME
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Feb 7, 2024 03:19
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shackleford posted:copeland
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Feb 7, 2024 03:23
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pseudorandom name posted:you should hire a team of developers to make wayland 2 wayland 2: sherborn
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Feb 7, 2024 04:35
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Sapozhnik posted:the gnome people have been threatening to switch to some sort of at least partially tiled window management lately, so it will be interesting to see where that goes it goes to a world where I bother to switch away from the default desktop environment in my interactive linux vms, op
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Feb 7, 2024 08:49
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outhole surfer posted:gnustep is so hilariously bad that even window maker doesn't use it windowmaker doesn't use it because it's not supposed to, it's a nextstep-like window manager for x11 gnustep is like cocoa on macos, so like cocoa there's no specific window manager for it (i.e. like cocoa, it can use several different window managers) although as i was saying earlier itt, it does have some rudimentary window manager-like functionality by providing something similar to finder, and it finally includes a global (to gnustep, anyway) menubar to, well, manage your gnustep windows (along with a nextstep-like dock) but that's not to say gnustep is good now or anything; it's not really good for anything other than as a curiosity, and imo it's probably more like apple's 1997 developer release of rhapsody than any actual mac os x release (and forget macos entirely, i don't think they're going to try and implement swift at all). and like rhapsody it's better as a tech demo than in actual use, but it does work it's kind of a shame too, it's finally at a point where you have basically enough to recreate very early os x if you really wanted to
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Feb 7, 2024 19:39
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mycophobia posted:it's not just toolbars, though, it could be anything. opening a window, resizing it, and putting it somewhere, anywhere you want, seems infinitely more powerful to me than having all other windows automatically snap to a particular size and position in response You're not crazy. It makes total sense to lay things out your way and especially so if the things you are working with involve guis, navigating with the mouse, stuff that doesn't like being resized to fit tiling layouts (literally everything) etc
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Feb 8, 2024 04:42
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VirtualBox KVM public release
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Feb 8, 2024 15:30
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It's not Oracle either ... strange world.
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Feb 8, 2024 15:30
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Does this provide any benefits over just using libvirt or whatever? Like does it still allow the use of features from the proprietary virtualbox extensions or something (are you allowed to use those in forks?)?
mystes fucked around with this message at 15:45 on Feb 8, 2024 |
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Feb 8, 2024 15:42
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yeah you get to use virtualbox's terrible gui
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Feb 8, 2024 15:45
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Beeftweeter posted:yeah you get to use virtualbox's terrible gui
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Feb 8, 2024 15:46
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really though i don't know, i doubt the windows extensions work with this since they're drivers for poo poo the previous custom kernel module provides i think? i'd guess it's for people that have virtualbox already highly integrated into their poo poo since i'm struggling to think of a different reason why you'd want to use it over any of the much better qemu/libvirt frontends (or even the qemu cui)
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Feb 8, 2024 15:48
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Edit: So I was assuming that this must just be running qemu in order to use kvm, but I think it's just directly using kvm in place of the acceleration provided by the virtualbox kernel module, so it still supports additional virtualized devices and other features provided by virtualbox, so it's fairly different and not just another qemu/libvirt frontend I'm still not sure what the advantages and disadvantages would be though. mystes fucked around with this message at 16:13 on Feb 8, 2024 |
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Feb 8, 2024 16:00
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mystes posted:I don't think any virtualized devices virtualbox uses would be part of the kernel module that provides its acceleration, strictly speaking. well it says you can now use virtualbox and qemu side-by-side (something i didn't think would have been impossible previously?) so i guess that's one benefit. afaik kvm and qemu are separate despite stemming from the same project, so you don't need to use kvm with qemu (there are several different backends you can choose from, some hw virtualized, some not; i.e. with qemu you can use the software-only TCG on any platform, on windows it supports hyper-v, and on macos it uses the virtualization framework, etc.), and vice versa but since i haven't used virtualbox in probably about 5 years now i'm honestly not sure how the virtualbox guest extensions for windows work now or what they include, but i'd assume they're going to need updated chipset drivers at the very least, and with kvm i think they get to actually implement gpu virtualization too, so they wouldn't need virtualbox's markedly slower implementation? but again they may already have implemented this, like i said i haven't used virtualbox in a long time e: oh you edited, see below e2: actually i think qemu's gpu virtualization is separate from kvm (i.e. it works with TCG and a few, but not all, of the other backends also). really i'd guess most of the benefit to using kvm here probably derives from it being a part of the linux kernel and not a custom module, it's probably simply faster and more fully-featured Beeftweeter fucked around with this message at 16:40 on Feb 8, 2024 |
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Feb 8, 2024 16:24
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mystes posted:Edit: So I was assuming that this must just be running qemu in order to use kvm, but I think it's just directly using kvm in place of the acceleration provided by the virtualbox kernel module, so it still supports additional virtualized devices and other features provided by virtualbox, so it's fairly different and not just another qemu/libvirt frontend yeah, it's just kvm as a different virtualization backend in place of whatever they were doing previously. i assume you can choose between the two still too since kvm is linux-only i'm not sure how different it really is though, qemu can emulate a lot of different hardware (more than virtualbox can, anyway)
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Feb 8, 2024 16:26
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Beeftweeter posted:well it says you can now use virtualbox and qemu side-by-side (something i didn't think would have been impossible previously?) so i guess that's one benefit. afaik kvm and qemu are separate despite stemming from the same project, so you don't need to use kvm with qemu (there are several different backends you can choose from, some hw virtualized, some not; i.e. with qemu you can use the software-only TCG on any platform, on windows it supports hyper-v, and on macos it uses the virtualization framework, etc.), and vice versa The kvm and virtualbox kernel mods used to conflict, so it was one or the other. One can think of kvm as providing acceleration while qemu provides device/part emulation: they aren't tied to each other (e.g., cross-architecture virt would use qemu but not kvm).
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Feb 8, 2024 17:14
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Visions of Valerie posted:The kvm and virtualbox kernel mods used to conflict, so it was one or the other. ah that makes sense. Visions of Valerie posted:One can think of kvm as providing acceleration while qemu provides device/part emulation: they aren't tied to each other (e.g., cross-architecture virt would use qemu but not kvm). yeah, you literally use the -accel flag with qemu's tui to enable kvm, lol (or any of the other virtualization backends it supports, hw or not). i wish you could do hw accelerated cross-architecture virtualization with it, but of course you can't (unless you're talking like, x86 on a x86_64 host)
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Feb 8, 2024 17:23
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Tiling is the act of splitting a screen/container and maximizing what's inside, and is omnipresent. Your browser draws a tab bar then an url bar then the actual webview. That's a vertical split (or rather, two, like this [[t|u]|w]). Every IDE and text editor does it (menubar, tab bar, toolbar, project view, terminal buffer...). It's interesting that at the top level, i.e. window management, floating is still present and being used. Though most people maximize their windows or split the screen in two, which is funnily enough by far the most useful tiling on the window level, at least with GUI apps. Probably because those usually come with their own tiling setups ootb (except if they are gimp, which is the only app I know of that does floating, i.e. not maximizing everything, by default) and few gui controls play nice with being resized willy-nilly. That being said, in IntelliJ I move the debug/run/terminal window to floating, but that's more because I want them moved to another screen. Floating can be useful, mostly when it's stay-on-top. Ocean of Milk fucked around with this message at 18:21 on Feb 8, 2024 |
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Feb 8, 2024 18:04
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one big disadvantage of VirtualBox is that the extensions have to be compiled with dkms which can be annoying in some circumstances still, the UI is pretty decent and doesn’t seem to require as high a learning curve than the alternatives. It also helps that it’s cross-platform the command line interface is minimally usable and not as intuitive as libvirt, but the upside is that you don’t have to mess with XML
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Feb 8, 2024 18:38
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sb hermit posted:still, the UI is pretty decent and doesn’t seem to require as high a learning curve than the alternatives. It also helps that it’s cross-platform it isn't very intuitive if you haven't used other virtualization software (from the era before libvirt and such existed/became popular, like vmware workstation or an older version of parallels etc.) before and the last time i used it, it had pretty much the exact same ui as the first time i used it, which was maybe 20 years ago. not that consistency is a bad thing or anything, but it looked extremely dated even then. but speaking of consistency, since it shares the same ui on every platform, it doesn't feel native to any of them. that imo adds to the learning curve, particularly if you're not familiar with cross-platform ui toolkits but like i said it's been at least 5 years since i've really tried virtualbox though, so that may not be true anymore. idk, virtualbox always seemed like a "lesser" virtualization solution to me, particularly on linux where you have a plethora of options. on windows you get hyper-v for free now, which is more limited, but works far better for windows users; and on macos something like parallels or vmware will have a much better user experience, but as noted you can also simply use qemu with the virtualization framework backend e: granted if all you want to do is to spin up a vm from time to time without paying for it, then i suppose it's not a terrible solution. but imo there are better options for pretty much any platform now Beeftweeter fucked around with this message at 19:59 on Feb 8, 2024 |
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Feb 8, 2024 19:53
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ah wiki helpfully has a screenshot of current virtualbox (7.0) on windows 11: so the ui has been rearranged a bit, but i'd recognize those widget icons anywhere, they're still the same, as is the way it lists the virtualized hardware. lol
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Feb 8, 2024 20:03
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Beeftweeter posted:it isn't very intuitive if you haven't used other virtualization software (from the era before libvirt and such existed/became popular, like vmware workstation or an older version of parallels etc.) before If I have to make Windows users learn how to start virtual machines in Linux, believe you me I’m going to use tools that they are already familiar with (and tools they are already using on their own machine) because I cannot be assed to spend the time to train literally anyone on libvirt. I would say that libvirt shell is very good and that the shell is the first-class interface. But editing the XML by hand and learning the nuances within domains, pools, interfaces, and etc is a bit of a learning curve. I would say that the VirtualBox GUI works well, and the GUI is their first-class interface. The fact that it barely changes is a godsend.
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Feb 8, 2024 20:13
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