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Extant Artiodactyl posted:whole home surge protectors are actually required as of 2020 code, i also recommend a 225 amp panel for solar ready and as for afci's...not required for a panel upgrade unless the circuit is new or gets extended more than 6 feet. go with god on this one, they absolutely are safer but if someone hosed up their wiring or there's knob&tube on some circuits, you could get inconsistent trips from shared neutrals. it is easier to swap out regular breakers in place of arc faults when this happens but you'd still be caling a guy out Isn't this exactly the sort of scenario you want the arc fault breaker for?
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Jan 30, 2024 15:00
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Also I think for shared neutrals specifically, I think that's a case where you need an arc fault breaker? And specifically a very expensive dual pole breaker. My old panel had one of those protecting the two K&T circuits, which have all thankfully been removed with the new panel.
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Jan 30, 2024 16:43
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You can also get a big GFCI at the panel input that turns off the whole house/apartment if it trigger. Cheaper and still safe. That is the default place for a GFCI in Germany these days.
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Jan 30, 2024 18:23
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VictualSquid posted:You can also get a big GFCI at the panel input that turns off the whole house/apartment if it trigger. Cheaper and still safe. That is the default place for a GFCI in Germany these days. I think you're talking about an RCD. They aren't the same things as US GFCI breakers.
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Jan 30, 2024 18:54
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Please sanity check my plan of attack against Gary's malfeasance here so I don't burn my brother's house down. Situation is a standard circuit breaker feeding a GFCI receptacle behind a wall-mounted TV, then wired to a basic-rear end switch, then wired to five overhead recessed can lights with LED retrofits in them (likely a shittier version of these). First floor of a two floor house, no water in area. One LED retrofit burns out, brother replaces it and everything is working fine. A few days later, the GFCI trips and kills power to the TV/lights. I get there and immediately find Gary has committed a felony. Not only is the then-unknown GFCI behind the TV, but it's literally behind the wall mount. I would have to remove the wall mount to replace the receptacle. So I reset the GFCI, receptacle power is back, but the GFCI keeps tripping immediately after I turn on the switch to the lights. GFCI is testing properly both by itself and with an outlet tester. Also working properly under a hair dryer's worth of load on a short power strip. So I take the switch out and note Gary has committed another misdemeanor. There are two black hots on the switch (fine), two neutrals wire nutted together in the box (fine), then the two grounds wire nutted together and nothing leading to the switch (  ). I correct the misdemeanor with a pigtail, GFCI still keeps tripping.Brother didn't remember which LED retrofit he replaced, he only remembered it was one of two, so I removed both. Noted nothing weird in the cans. Switch now works, GFCI no longer trips, and everything appears normal. There was a weird circumstance when the hair dryer wouldn't work off the power strip once, but couldn't duplicate that again. TV and everything else working fine too once he could find the loving remote. So I put everything back where it was, made sure the LED lights were tight, tested the switch a whole bunch, everything fine. GFCI tripped again after two days. Plan of attack: remove the GFCI receptacle and replace it with a regular-rear end receptacle (provided Gary didn't commit wiring crimes behind there too). Remove the regular-rear end switch and replace it with a dimmer switch rated for LEDs. Remove and replace the two potentially nuisance-tripping LED retrofits. Turn on power, check voltage and etc. If poo poo goes wrong after that, electrician call.
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Jan 30, 2024 21:27
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Is it possibly powering an exterior outlet with an extension cord laying in an occasional puddle?
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Jan 30, 2024 21:55
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Bad Munki posted:Is it possibly powering an exterior outlet with an extension cord laying in an occasional puddle? And that's why I posted - never would've thought to check that! That room has a bunch of other receptacles working fine on a different circuit, including against the exterior wall, but Gary might've been creative. Doing the work Friday afternoon so I'll be sure to check around the exterior for mystery receptacles/cords/lights. I didn't see any - but I wasn't looking!
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Jan 30, 2024 22:02
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facialimpediment posted:Plan of attack: remove the GFCI receptacle and replace it with a regular-rear end receptacle (provided Gary didn't commit wiring crimes behind there too). Remove the regular-rear end switch and replace it with a dimmer switch rated for LEDs. Remove and replace the two potentially nuisance-tripping LED retrofits. Turn on power, check voltage and etc. If poo poo goes wrong after that, electrician call. I wouldn't replace a GFCI that's tripping with anything other than a new GFCI to make sure it's not false tripping. I get that long term it's probably a bad place for a GFCI, but now isn't the time to do that. You need to figure out what is wrong first.
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Jan 30, 2024 22:06
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Do the lights have switch mode power supplies that have a nice RFI filter that uses the mains ground? If yes: they can leak half a mA or something. If there are enough of those, the capacitive leakage current can trip sensitive ground fault protection systems. Same goes for computers, printers etc etc. Anything that has an SMPS and a grounded mains plug. Perhaps use a <15w incandescent light bulb to see if there is actually a significant leakage current. Probably not, i would guess the problem is caused by 'weird' capacitive loads, but it is never a bad idea to verify. LimaBiker fucked around with this message at 22:12 on Jan 30, 2024 |
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Jan 30, 2024 22:06
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Motronic posted:I wouldn't replace a GFCI that's tripping with anything other than a new GFCI to make sure it's not false tripping. Tracking - the trouble is that it's also terrible short-term! Brother just had a kid two days ago and this is the play area for the three-year old. The three year old gets VERY angry without Bluey. Jokes aside, I'll swap out the GFCI to be on the safe side. I've been leaning to just making everything right (replace receptacle/switch/lights), though it will be funny if the line terminal on the GFCI turns out to be loose/hosed. LimaBiker posted:Do the lights have switch mode power supplies that have a nice RFI filter that uses the mains ground? This is where I've been leaning - that the old-rear end switch isn't jiving with the LEDs, or the replacement LED happened to be just leaky enough in combination with the others to trip the GFCI. Thus the posting because this two-day delay in tripping is irritating.
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Jan 30, 2024 22:23
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When it is immediately tripping every time you turn the lights on, unscrew lights one by one and see which one of them are doing it. That's almost certainly the source since when you removed them everything was fine. Get new LED retrofits from Home Depot or wherever to replace the faulty LEDs.
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Jan 30, 2024 23:48
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Danhenge posted:Isn't this exactly the sort of scenario you want the arc fault breaker for? Let's say you have intermittent trips of a breaker... are you going to: A) get pissed off and swap breakers B) tear open walls to potentially find the bad wiring C) burn down the house and move elsewhere Dealing with brownfield wiring, I can't see anyone really wanting to chase AFCI faults against years of god knows what.
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Jan 31, 2024 02:28
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Shifty Pony posted:When it is immediately tripping every time you turn the lights on, unscrew lights one by one and see which one of them are doing it. That's almost certainly the source since when you removed them everything was fine. As a follow-up to the story - I couldn't recreate the problem quickly when I was over and brother had no issues with the one/two suspect LED retrofits removed. No exterior lighting / receptacles (but Gary sure hosed up a dryer vent!). So I decided to Do Everything Right - took off the TV mount, replaced the GFCI with another GFCI, changed to a proper dimmer switch, replaced Every loving LED retrofit in the room with well-reviewed dial-a-temperature LED retrofits. Gary hid another misdemeanor behind the GFCI - two ground wires twisted together with no nut, longer wire connected to the GFCI. Bastard didn't even bother using a greenie on it. The retrofits I took out were a blend of HD EcoSmarts and Commercial Electrics, so for all I know that was loving with things. Now they're all the same brand - though one I put in was dramatically dimmer than the other four. That defective light rapidly found its way into the garbage and the replacement was fine. Only minor, minor concern is that the GFCI line and load wires are testing at 123V and the can lights were testing at 105V with the dimmer switch in. Sounds like quasi-normal dimmer droop, only occurring to me now that I could've tested the fixture with the dimmer's fine-tuning feature. Naturally, I forgot to test the voltage at the cans with the old switch in. And of course, one of the toggle bolts busted when I was putting the mount back on.
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Feb 3, 2024 04:31
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Danhenge posted:Isn't this exactly the sort of scenario you want the arc fault breaker for? Yes, absolutely. But people will absolutely burn their house down out of spite because that drat guvm't ain't tellin me what to do.
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Feb 3, 2024 05:18
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This stupid safety device started alerting that there wasn't safety. Better throw it in the trash!
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Feb 3, 2024 17:05
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FISHMANPET posted:Also I think for shared neutrals specifically, I think that's a case where you need an arc fault breaker? And specifically a very expensive dual pole breaker. My old panel had one of those protecting the two K&T circuits, which have all thankfully been removed with the new panel. I haven't posted much about the final days of my panel upgrade mostly because going back over the insanity that PG&E put us through would make me smash my keyboard, but once I replaced the main subpanel it turned out I had some troubleshooting & breaker replacements to do as I hadn't fully grokked the stupidities of the old wiring and one of those stupidities was exactly what you describe. Specifically that the dishwasher/disposal are on an MWBC, which was apparently all the fuckin' rage back in the 70s/80s (as far as I know it was common until the early 2000s). So because of the shared neutral on those I had to buy a QO215CAFI, two pole 15 amp combined arc fault breaker, and those things are loving impossible to find. I eventually ended up buying it from a place in Virginia which would only deliver locally, having them drop it off at my brother's house as he lives there, and having him ship it across the country, because they were the only place that was selling for around real street price ($120) - the places I could find that would ship to me wanted a minimum of $250 for this loving thing, with one place quoting $500. Irony is, this was all because of my desire to meet 2020 code, i.e. AFCI everywhere, but because of the 70s dryer wiring being actual 2 hots + neutral (not 4 wire, no ground lying unused in the box or at the panel), I had to replace the 30 amp GFCI I'd installed for the dryer with a regular 30 amp. I'm aware that all electricians think GFCI on dryer is stupid and a waste of money, before anyone jumps down my throat about it, but still kind of annoying that at the very end of the process where I had hoped to have a fully code-compliant wiring environment I technically don't. This presumes of course the inspector is OK with non-GFCI dryer, but he's been pretty loose so far. The dryer isn't that far away from this subpanel so if I had to run a new 4-wire it wouldn't be impossible, but after <mumble mumble> years doing this project I really just kind of want to be done. And I'm almost done, other than one breaker in the new main panel that's tripping, which I really hope is because I miswired something in a box and not because the people who did my foundation bolting last year drilled through a wire  .
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Feb 4, 2024 21:00
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SyNack Sassimov posted:I haven't posted much about the final days of my panel upgrade mostly because going back over the insanity that PG&E put us through would make me smash my keyboard, but once I replaced the main subpanel it turned out I had some troubleshooting & breaker replacements to do as I hadn't fully grokked the stupidities of the old wiring and one of those stupidities was exactly what you describe. Specifically that the dishwasher/disposal are on an MWBC, which was apparently all the fuckin' rage back in the 70s/80s (as far as I know it was common until the early 2000s). So because of the shared neutral on those I had to buy a QO215CAFI, two pole 15 amp combined arc fault breaker, and those things are loving impossible to find. I eventually ended up buying it from a place in Virginia which would only deliver locally, having them drop it off at my brother's house as he lives there, and having him ship it across the country, because they were the only place that was selling for around real street price ($120) - the places I could find that would ship to me wanted a minimum of $250 for this loving thing, with one place quoting $500. there is a specific exception in the code (250.140) for ranges and dryers to use an existing 3 wire connection but if and only if it's SE cable and goes all the way back to the main service, not a subpanel; among a couple other provisions. it's meant to give a pass to situations like this until that 4 wire can get run
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Feb 5, 2024 04:24
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Extant Artiodactyl posted:there is a specific exception in the code (250.140) for ranges and dryers to use an existing 3 wire connection but if and only if it's SE cable and goes all the way back to the main service, not a subpanel; among a couple other provisions. it's meant to give a pass to situations like this until that 4 wire can get run It doesn't have to be SE cable. The rule says the grounded conductor has to be insulated (which is what you'll normally find with old 3-wire no ground outlets) or be SE cable.
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Feb 5, 2024 06:02
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I spotted a run of 14/3 in the crawl space going from where a light switch is, spanning across a room, and then going up into a stud bay on the other side of the room. Which was odd because there isn't a box in that stud bay.  Dammit Gary! I pulled the cover off the existing switch and found that it a 3-way switch. I saw a red traveller wire in the box but I need to get time to cut the breaker off and pull the switch out to see if the drat thing is connected and to see if the wire to the light is there. Knowing my luck the sealed up box is still critical to the circuit.
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Feb 6, 2024 11:53
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I think you're being remarkably kind, that's not "sealed up" I bet it's "completely filled with newspaper and spackle on top of bare wires "
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Feb 6, 2024 14:16
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It only really shows when you shine a bright light parallel to the wall from fairly far away to highlight the bumps.   I suspect that they stuck a piece of drywall right over the existing box, and then tried to feather it in over too short of a distance. The existing boxes are almost but not quite entirely behind the drywall so placing a patch directly on top of the box would leave it protruding by 1/16" or so. The good news is that the wire up to the light comes from the still exposed box that is currently being used for a switch. The bad news is that the power from the circuit is not, and the 14/3 is being used to supply power to the light switch. It must be joined to the circuit power inside of the closed off box.  The closed up box shares a stud bay with another light switch on the other side of the wall and there's enough space between that old metal box, and the drywall to slip a boroscope through, so I ordered cheap WiFi one off Amazon and I'll see what's going on in there. I will need to decide if I want to open up the box and use it as a light switch (it isn't in an ideal spot) or to bypass the closed up box. That will involve cutting the 14/3 in the crawlspace, finding another place where that circuit is accessible in the crawlspace, and splicing it together using a pair of junction boxes but at that point it likely makes more sense to just go ahead and redo the wiring, replacing the existing currently in use wall box with an old work box to get a little bit more room and running new cable to it.
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Feb 6, 2024 15:37
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You could also just put a blank cover on the j-box and paint it to match. I've had to do that a few times in my house and they really do become invisible. I never notice them anymore.
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Feb 6, 2024 15:42
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SouthShoreSamurai posted:
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Feb 7, 2024 01:39
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About what I expected.    Old metal lightswitch faceplate repurposed as a box cover, random chunk of drywall jammed on top, then some half assed patching. I would very much prefer that the switch be one and a half stud bays over because right now it would be in the middle of the drat wall, but I'll need to look in the attic over the kitchen to see if I can make that happen easily.
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Feb 7, 2024 22:11
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The switch plate used as a patch then mudded over is something I've never seen before. Heck of a job
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Feb 7, 2024 22:23
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I just realized that I have very easy access to another 15A circuit nearby in the crawlspace. That circuit handles lighting in another room and a lot of outlets so it isn't ideal but it is still an option that will allow me to cut the power supply cable to the hidden box and abandon it in place until I decide to refinish the wall (they painted over wallpaper, ugh).
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Feb 7, 2024 22:32
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Well one option requires you to get in the attic and crawlspace to cut and rerun wires, then cut a box and install a new switch. The other requires standing up and doing a little Sheetrock work in one room and installing a switch. I know which one I'd pick, but you do you.
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Feb 7, 2024 22:37
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The buried box is 30" from the edge of the door trim, it's a really dumb spot for a switch to be. I looked through some old listing photos and property records, and I believe that the box has been buried for at least 15-20 years. Between that and the branch of the circuit only carrying 0.36A (4x 11W LEDs) I'm inclined to put an AFCI breaker at the panel and call it safer-enough for a few months until I can put in the new box where I want it.
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Feb 8, 2024 02:41
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Shifty Pony posted:About what I expected. For fun, since I didn't post any pictures with the can/switch/GFCI problem, here are two boxes I've fixed over time. In the ceiling of my basement, appears to have been used for a projector:  In my brother's basement: 
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Feb 8, 2024 03:07
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I picked up some AFCI breakers to stick in multiple circuits while I had the main disconnect off, and discovered: The contractor which had installed the old transfer switch sub panel and move circuits over to it did not bother to label any neutrals, or even pretend to run the neutral of a circuit to a position corresponding to the breaker for that circuit. Two of the three major circuits upstairs are actually a multiwire branch circuit. The breakers for these circuits are not anywhere near each other in the subpanel, so it is impossible to rig a common disconnect. This also means that I could not install the AFCI breaker that I intended to put on one of the circuits. I will probably have to move the circuits back to the main box in order to have them tied together. There is a switched duplex outlet downstairs which I thought was on the lighting circuit, but when the lamp was turned on both the lighting circuit and the outlet circuit AFCI breakers tripped. I opened up the outlet to find that in the past it had been wired with one outlet always on and the other outlet switched, but whoever put in new outlets 20 years ago or whatever didn't understand how that worked and wired the duplex outlet with the switched lighting circuit hot wire and the outlet circuit neutral.
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Feb 8, 2024 17:57
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Is it possible for a device to have a slight short and run your electricity bill to the moon? I have an air bubbler outside next to my stock tank "fish pond" and I went to pick it up today cleaning up from the storm and it gave me a pretty good jolt. It was wet from the rain. Our electric bill was way up last month, I'm wondering if this is just dumping 100+ watts to ground? (I unplugged it) like, it was a short but maybe not enough to trip the breaker, I guess
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Feb 8, 2024 19:27
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A plain breaker only cares about how much current is flowing, not where it's flowing to, so it'll happily allow 100 watts to go to ground as long as that doesn't put it over the limit. That's the point of a GFCI, to detect when current is going somewhere other than the expected loop and cut it off. I'm not an electrical professional but I'm pretty sure that an outdoor outlet near a fish pond hits multiple entries on the "does this need to be GFCI protected?" list so if it's not then you should fix that/have it fixed, if it does have one you should test it/have it tested. Getting zapped when you pick it up is a strong sign that it's either not protected or the protection is not working.
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Feb 8, 2024 19:45
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wolrah posted:Getting zapped when you pick it up is a strong sign that it's either not protected or the protection is not working. It is in fact the perfect sign that it's hosed. Gfci it and it won't stay on regardless so also buy a new bubbler or see if you can figure out where the insulation / waterproofing failed. This is why hair dryers and stuff come with in line gfcis now.
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Feb 8, 2024 19:57
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Yeah I'm deep in "don't do it this way" territory. It's an indoor (not outdoor rated) fish bubbler used outside on an extension cord going out through a garage window because I don't have 120v on that side of the yard outside. Ran the outdoor Christmas lights off that socket too. Great point about the GFCI. Sounds like an ideal use case. Maybe I can find a 6-way GFCI thing because it also runs the garage door opener and this is the only outlet, really on that corner of the house downstairs unfortunately, and I'm putting in a workbench over there too.
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Feb 8, 2024 20:07
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You can buy in-line GFCI adapters, where you would plug the adapter into the wall outlet and then plug the extension cord to your death trap into the plug of the adapter. Lowe's and Home Depot both carry them.
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Feb 8, 2024 20:12
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Amazon sells a leviton combo smart plug + GFCI for $29 I've already ordered *I just realized the outlet above the utility sink in the garage isn't GFCI Hadlock fucked around with this message at 20:25 on Feb 8, 2024 |
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Feb 8, 2024 20:18
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Hadlock posted:Amazon sells a leviton combo smart plug + GFCI for $29 I've already ordered Is it all on the same circuit? You mentioned only having one outlet "on that side of the house/garage/something" - you only need one right where the circuit first starts from the panel assuming it's a home run from the panel to that outlet. Then you're good to go for the whole circuit. Or use a GFCI breaker. I wouldn't bother putting your fish electrolysis machine on a GFCI yet though - it's just going to trip it. (I'm suggesting you throw it away or move it indoors first.)
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Feb 8, 2024 21:41
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H110Hawk posted:your fish electrolysis machine
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Feb 8, 2024 22:42
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Hadlock posted:*I just realized the outlet above the utility sink in the garage isn't GFCI Unclear from your posts if you know this or not, but in case you don't, NEC requires ALL garage outlets to GFCI, regardless of location, so you should check to see if there is upstream protection somewhere else. edit: although from your statement it seems like your unprotected bubbler was run off an outlet in your garage, so you likely don't have upstream protection. ROJO fucked around with this message at 23:40 on Feb 8, 2024 |
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Feb 8, 2024 23:38
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Doesn't the reset also have to be readily accessible? So like, a ceiling outlet for a garage door opener would be up against two conflicting needs? Or would that just be expected to be GFCI protected somewhere else, such as at the breaker?
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Feb 8, 2024 23:39
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