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If you want Batman to go to the laser gun battle in his hover Ferrari, press 1. If you want him to double check the orphanage paperwork, press 2!
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Feb 8, 2024 20:15
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glitchwraith posted:Ok, I'll bite. Gotham's corruption has been rooted out. Effective social programs have made poverty and major crimes rare to non-existent, and all super villains have been cured, reformed, or at least humanely separated from society. Gotham is in all senses of the word "fixed". What story do you tell now? Have you heard of a book called “Red Son”?
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Feb 8, 2024 20:16
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glitchwraith posted:Ok, I'll bite. Gotham's corruption has been rooted out. Effective social programs have made poverty and major crimes rare to non-existent, and all super villains have been cured, reformed, or at least humanely separated from society. Gotham is in all senses of the word "fixed". What story do you tell now? weird thing is they sorta do that with the suicide squad game(which is genuinly really really fun/good weirdly enough) at the end of knight, batman fake kills himself and sorta tries out a different crime fighter persona but then superman finds him and he joins the justice league which is just setting up and alot of gotham crime is either drying up with criminals in jail or dead or going off to other cities I am sad suicide squad got hosed because its genuinly good game, it just has tacked on GAAS stuff(not in the BUY BUY BUY sense but more in the mission variety and set up sense) because the story and writing and gameplay are good. Dapper_Swindler fucked around with this message at 20:20 on Feb 8, 2024 |
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Feb 8, 2024 20:17
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glitchwraith posted:Ok, I'll bite. Gotham's corruption has been rooted out. Effective social programs have made poverty and major crimes rare to non-existent, and all super villains have been cured, reformed, or at least humanely separated from society. Gotham is in all senses of the word "fixed". What story do you tell now? Batman's therapy journey Alternatively, Batman vs the real criminal: capitalism
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Feb 8, 2024 20:19
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glitchwraith posted:Ok, I'll bite. Gotham's corruption has been rooted out. Effective social programs have made poverty and major crimes rare to non-existent, and all super villains have been cured, reformed, or at least humanely separated from society. Gotham is in all senses of the word "fixed". What story do you tell now? Natural disaster strikes, shattering the stability of the city Evil Alternate reality versions of Batman show up Emperor Joker (yes I know that was technically a Superman story shush) Not to mention that I don't think you can fully get rid of things like smuggling, so if you sweep out the supervillains that just means the mafias start to move in (again).
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Feb 8, 2024 20:21
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Randalor posted:Not to mention that I don't think you can fully get rid of things like smuggling, so if you sweep out the supervillains that just means the mafias start to move in (again). In some timeline, Batman's first real enemy was the Falcone/Maroni mafia before Joker and the rest of the freaks showed up
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Feb 8, 2024 20:23
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Sandman's enduring popularity shows that a moody mopey drama king in dire need of therapy, without almost any action, can still be interesting to read. Men would rather(Sandman series spoiler) elaborately kill themselves and reincarnate in an entirely new being than go to therapy.
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Feb 8, 2024 20:24
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Batman's therapy journey So the Harley Quinn cartoon
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Feb 8, 2024 20:29
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Professor Beetus posted:There are obviously parallels to real world issues and there are attempts to address it but it's also very clearly a comic book universe in which there are just really bad people that need to be stopped by superheroes. It's an absurd reading of the comics to hold Bruce Wayne/Batman to the same moral calculus as if the comic book universe he resides in is exactly the same as our own. It's silly. That's not really right. After all, the comic book universe was crafted the way it is specifically to justify Batman cavorting around in bat pajamas. Supervillains exist in large part to avoid having to tackle those awkward social questions. After all, if superheroes were running rampant in society, combining their superpowers with their selflessness and their willingness to defy the system to do what's right, then they would have a chance at actually changing society and the world in some meaningful sense. But superhero comics don't want to get change too much of the real-world status quo, and for the most part they don't really want to spend their time confronting social and economic issues. As such, it didn't take long for comics writers to realize that they needed something to separate the superheroes from the world and give them excuses to avoid spending too much time dealing with real-world questions. It's not that superheroes exist to stop supervillains, it's that supervillains exist to stop superheroes. The hero always wins in the end, but the supervillain so completely occupies the hero's attentions and energies that the hero has a decent excuse for not dealing with anything else. Here's what Superman did in his very first adventure, Action Comics #1, before he had any supervillains to fight:
And that's just the first issue! In other very early Superman stories, he does things like confront a mine owner over unsafe working conditions in his mines, trying to pressure the government into rebuilding crappy decaying slums, exposing horrible conditions in prisons, and investigating banks that are tricking people into pouring their life's savings into worthless investments. Originally, "Clark Kent" wasn't just something Superman did when he wasn't Supermanning - Clark would use his journalistic resources and connections to get tips about lovely or scandalous things happening, and then go fix them as Superman. Later on, they started introducing supervillains instead, and before long Superman was a guy who fought cartoon villains and natural disasters, rather than a guy who fought against real social and economic injustice. Yeah, it's true that superhero comics probably couldn't exist in their current form as century-long multimedia brands with a shared universe passed around between countless writers if they didn't work that way. But that just makes it an excellent example of how the demands of capitalism and other entrenched social forces will naturally push fiction away from being able to really challenge the system we live in now.
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Feb 8, 2024 20:31
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Even if Gotham is fixed by Batman putting his wealth to work in socially positive ways (by not being a billionaire and stealing wealth of the laboring class in the first place........) there's plenty of external threats, Ra's al Ghul frequently pops up there and stirs poo poo up but isn't based out of Gotham or anything.
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Feb 8, 2024 20:33
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Triskelli posted:Batman and Catwoman cutting up Gotham's nightscene on powerdates, Bruce helping the Robins start their careers in other cities, the reformed crims catching up over a game of poker or catan. C'mon man use your own imagination, don't beg us to use yours for you. I would unironically love Batman, the romance comic, or a wacky Rogues Gallery sitcom, but I doubt they would sell well given the normal audience for Batman comics, and even if it did, you'd still run into the problem that both would get boring, repetitive, and/or dumb on a long enough timeline. Gyges posted:Batman is also fighting intergalactic aliens, working with the Justice League, running one or more international teams, showing up in other cities, and sometimes running a global network of Batmen. Plus Gotham doesn't need to be a Utopia to be fixed, just upgraded from crumbling hellhole to maybe regular Superhero city. Flash's city isn't a hopeless pit of corruption after all. So, an Adam Strange comic, a Justice League comic, and guest appearances in other heroes comics. Batman Inc. returning and being the main comic again would be nice though, I'll give you that one. I agree, it is ridiculous how many times Gotham gets reduced to a worse and worse dystopian state, if only for how high the stakes get raised each time. But recall I was initially commenting on why Batman doesn't simply socially engineer crime away, not why the writer's can't come up with anything better than "Calendar Man takes over Gotham, death toll in the thousands." TheDisreputableDog posted:Have you heard of a book called “Red Son”? The stand alone comic that definitively ends? Yes, how is that relevant to the discussion of "Batman, the never ending serial"? Hieronymous Alloy posted:Batman's therapy journey Both great ideas for stand alone stories. But again, it's extending the same problem if used for the serial. Batman fixes his mind and institutes gay space communism. Awesome. What comes next, and is it still recognizably a Batman comic? Randalor posted:Natural disaster strikes, shattering the stability of the city So, Gotham get's broken again. That kind of goes against the premise I set out. Alt. reality threats kind of goes alongside alien invasions in that, yeah, Batman tackles that from time to time, but usually in a Justice League book. Because once the threat is cosmic instead of street level, you've taken Batman out of the genre he's most popular in.
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Feb 8, 2024 20:39
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glitchwraith posted:
Does the world, separate from the demands of market capitalism, need or benefit from infinite additional illustrated batman stories? Like, the reason things keep.getting reset is people want the original stories more. They want to hear about Peter Parker getting bit by a spider but there's a limit to how much spider man past that they want to hear. I think this is part of why superhero movies are.flopping lately. They're played out. Everything people want to see they can see now. There are enough (moving) pictures of spider man to satisfy all desire for such; there's simply no marginal gain to be had from further films.
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Feb 8, 2024 20:45
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Not sure that Red Son is a great example when at least the movie version swings definitively hard at the idea of social engineering good solutions for society.
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Feb 8, 2024 20:48
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Raenir Salazar posted:Not sure that Red Son is a great example when at least the movie version swings definitively hard at the idea of social engineering good solutions for society. Why don't you put the whole world in a bottle, Superman?
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Feb 8, 2024 20:55
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Does the world, separate from the demands of market capitalism, need or benefit from infinite additional illustrated batman stories? Not at all. And I do believe that stories that end, fully and completely, are more often the better stories. But the companies making cape books decided long ago that wasn't the path they wanted to take. Sure, they'll give you an out of continuity series that ends, but the "main" books, the ones that "matter" never end (unless they stop selling). It's far from ideal, and it's going to be the reason for a lot of weirdness in these stories. It just seems misguided to judge Batman one that weirdness while not acknowledging the cause of it.
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Feb 8, 2024 21:00
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Does the world, separate from the demands of market capitalism, need or benefit from infinite additional illustrated batman stories? Spiderman gets reset because Sony needs to keep making Spiderman movies in order to avoid fully losing the IP rights to Disney. Nobody really wants to spend their entire career playing Batman, either. These parts are starmaking, but physically difficult, frustrating, and often shallow.
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Feb 8, 2024 21:00
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glitchwraith posted:So, Gotham get's broken again. That kind of goes against the premise I set out. Alt. reality threats kind of goes alongside alien invasions in that, yeah, Batman tackles that from time to time, but usually in a Justice League book. Because once the threat is cosmic instead of street level, you've taken Batman out of the genre he's most popular in. You asked what stories you tell with a "fixed" Gotham, I listed off 3 that DC had done in the past (well, okay, I can think of a couple of times they did the Natural Disaster stories) and pointed out that there's nothing stopping the crime families moving back in. Honestly, something like Zero Year would still work when you focus on the disaster and people being people over the actual Red Hood Gang stuff.
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Feb 8, 2024 21:00
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The Glumslinger posted:So the Harley Quinn cartoon 
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Feb 8, 2024 21:02
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Name Change posted:Spiderman gets reset because Sony needs to keep making Spiderman movies in order to avoid fully losing the IP rights to Disney. Nobody really wants to spend their entire career playing Batman, either. These parts are starmaking, but physically difficult, frustrating, and often shallow. Right, but that's my point. We can all just accept that most of this stuff is absolute dreck generated for purely capitalistic reasons and if any of it has artistic merit that's little more than a happy accident. None of it necessarily deserves any more attention than the latest iteration of happy meal toys.
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Feb 8, 2024 21:05
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Randalor posted:You asked what stories you tell with a "fixed" Gotham, I listed off 3 that DC had done in the past (well, okay, I can think of a couple of times they did the Natural Disaster stories) and pointed out that there's nothing stopping the crime families moving back in. Honestly, something like Zero Year would still work when you focus on the disaster and people being people over the actual Red Hood Gang stuff. I stated Batman can't really fix Gotham because it would end his stories. Someone else said "nah, you can have stories with a fixed Gotham", leading to my question. "Break Gotham again" supports my initial point. Hieronymous Alloy posted:Right, but that's my point. We can all just accept that most of this stuff is absolute dreck generated for purely capitalistic reasons and if any of it has artistic merit that's little more than a happy accident. None of it necessarily deserves any more attention than the latest iteration of happy meal toys. I do think there is room for artistic merit within the framework. But anything dependent on monied interests are obviously going to be limited.
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Feb 8, 2024 21:16
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Did I click the wrong thread
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Feb 8, 2024 21:18
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Name Change posted:Spiderman gets reset because Sony needs to keep making Spiderman movies in order to avoid fully losing the IP rights to Disney. Nobody really wants to spend their entire career playing Batman, either. These parts are starmaking, but physically difficult, frustrating, and often shallow. I remember the Spiderman stage show seemed to cripple a stuntman a month
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Feb 8, 2024 21:25
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I thought it was an interesting angle that in The Batman (Robert Pattinson one) Bruce going out and doing Batman stuff leaves his family’s legacy vulnerable to corruption because he’s not paying attention to that and just wants to beat up thugs
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Feb 8, 2024 21:26
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In the third Nolan movie, Batman's career of going out and beating up thugs has left his body a complete wreck All the interesting Batman stories explore how he's actually a deeply hosed up and suffering individual
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Feb 8, 2024 21:28
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Right, but that's my point. We can all just accept that most of this stuff is absolute dreck generated for purely capitalistic reasons and if any of it has artistic merit that's little more than a happy accident. None of it necessarily deserves any more attention than the latest iteration of happy meal toys. Honestly this response comes across as a really shallow "one weird trick" thinking applied to art. People make things for all sorts of reasons; even if Sony is financially compelled to keep making Spider-Man movies that doesn't mean that a huge amount of the creative impulse in creation of those movies isn't coming from people who genuinely want to make movies about comic book characters they grew up with, and in a space where they get to often tell actually "complete" stories instead of serials. And you've picked probably the worst superhero film example for "people have had their fill" because Spider-Man movies have all done huge numbers. People in general love going to see Spider-Man movies, and overall seem to not tire of the experience of watching Spider-Man swing around and whomp on various villains. Like, you're the moderator of the SA book forum, do not pretend to be confused by the idea that people simply can't get enough of the same story told slightly differently a million times.
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Feb 8, 2024 21:45
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Raenir Salazar posted:Not sure that Red Son is a great example when at least the movie version swings definitively hard at the idea of social engineering good solutions for society. I was being cheeky. Anyway, Biden willfully took and distributed classified docs, huh?
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Feb 8, 2024 22:01
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There's a lot of legit criticism of superhero media, but so much of it just seems to boil down to "I don't like this, stop liking it" and then backfilling in justification to get there, especially now that the MCU is finally collapsing. Wow, capeshit is about believing in yourself and fighting evil and extraordinary people doing amazing things, just like every popular story ever. Byzantine fucked around with this message at 22:05 on Feb 8, 2024 |
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Feb 8, 2024 22:03
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TheDisreputableDog posted:I was being cheeky. And the investigators said that he was sundowning during interviews. I think that’s going to get a lot more play.
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Feb 8, 2024 22:06
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TheDisreputableDog posted:I was being cheeky. sounds like he took a gently caress ton of notes in note books and a bunch of those notes were on classifed stuff and were forgotten about in his gross basement or various desks".
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Feb 8, 2024 22:06
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selec posted:And the investigators said that he was sundowning during interviews. I think that’s going to get a lot more play. It's pretty much all Fox and CNN are crowing about right now. MSNBC spent a good deal of time on it, then moved back to the SCOTUS trainwreck.
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Feb 8, 2024 22:07
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Feb 8, 2024 22:10
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Id be curious to read the full transcript personally. but yeah, not great.
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Feb 8, 2024 22:13
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Dapper_Swindler posted:sounds like he took a gently caress ton of notes in note books and a bunch of those notes were on classifed stuff and were forgotten about in his gross basement or various desks". Inside the beltway it’s called “pulling a Petraeus”.
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Feb 8, 2024 22:14
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The commentary on his memory seems a bit gratuitous for a special counsel's report to me. Is this sort of thing typical?
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Feb 8, 2024 22:16
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Oof, that's gonna kill him in the general
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Feb 8, 2024 22:19
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AKA Pseudonym posted:The commentary on his memory seems a bit gratuitous for a special counsel's report to me. Is this sort of thing typical? possibly. id have to hear various nerds read through the full report Ms Adequate posted:Oof, that's gonna kill him in the general probably not. if this was september/october. possibly, now, probably not.
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Feb 8, 2024 22:20
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Zachack posted:Honestly this response comes across as a really shallow "one weird trick" thinking applied to art. People make things for all sorts of reasons; even if Sony is financially compelled to keep making Spider-Man movies that doesn't mean that a huge amount of the creative impulse in creation of those movies isn't coming from people who genuinely want to make movies about comic book characters they grew up with, and in a space where they get to often tell actually "complete" stories instead of serials. Oh sure a spider man movie *can* be amazing and great; but I no longer think we should *expect* it to be. We should expect the products of capitalistic art to be regurgitated dreck. Anything past that is a happy bonus. A good spider man movie is not a norm, it's a miracle. Also I am not the mod of anything I am a free elf
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Feb 8, 2024 22:20
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Welp, nice country we had here
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Feb 8, 2024 22:21
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Welp, nice country we had here idk. i defiently want to read the full transcripts at this point.
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Feb 8, 2024 22:26
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Dapper_Swindler posted:idk. i defiently want to read the full transcripts at this point. Yeah, that looks written in a very pointed or misleading way, like with the debate described as "once so important to him".
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Feb 8, 2024 22:30
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